From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #117 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, March 12 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 117 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: the klan (forgive the rant) [Michael Paz ] Re: She don't like my grammar ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: She don't like my grammar [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: She don't like my grammar [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: NJC : Question [Vince Lavieri ] Welcome ["Sue Cameron" ] Re: scrabble afternoon(njc) ["Diane Evans" ] Re: NJC : Question [Murphycopy@aol.com] Grammar (VLJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] teasing NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Grammar (VLJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] RE: She don't like my grammar ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #116 [RPWieloh@cs.com] Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: She don't like my grammar [Catherine McKay ] Re: teasing NJC [Michael Paz ] Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) [Michael Paz ] Re: Grammar (VLJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #116 [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) ["Louis Lynch" ] Re: Grammar (nJC) [Randy Remote ] Re: the klan (forgive the rant) [Randy Remote ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:22:11 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: the klan (forgive the rant) Pat- Thanks for the reply. I really understand where you are coming from. I have NEVER considered myself a songwriter (although I do write), I feel like the stuff I have written is not so hot. Most of the time I write from a very personal level and am not willing to put them out there for the world to chew on. I do however love to sing and play and there are so many wonderful songs out there, well you know. I had my taste of fortune and fame as well in Honduras from 1975 and 1983. It is probably more "big fish in small pond" syndrome, but it was so much fun. Your name and face in the paper all the time and people recognizing you in the street and saying hi or whatever. Being invited to play at all the important fests and stuff. I even sang the US National Anthem for the President of Honduras one time. It was all fun. I played in from of crowds of 10,000 people or in bars with just a few drunks that weren't listening anyways and I loved it all. My mom came to so many of my shows especially the large ones and one day during a gig at an american bar down there called the Last Chance Saloon she told me, that she thought I gave as much in all my performances no matter who many people were there. I use to play a little game while I was playing the club scenes. I had a knack for being able to sing and play but still listen to peoples conversations in the area of the stage. When I would take a break I would walk by and say hi or something and then make a comment about something they had been talking about, and then walk off. Out of the corner of my eye I got quite a few shocked looks, but I also got more attention or a quieter venue to play in. LOL. Oh thanks for taking me down memory lane. I have alway considered myself a pretty good singer, but my guitar playing is pretty so so. It was always more of a struggle for me than singing, but I always tried hard. I feel like what she said about Joni I had sort of the opposite thing happen to me with really good and talented people. I feel like they made me play better cause I felt like I had to. My long time friend (36 years) Dan and I had a jam yesterday from 3pm till 8:30 pm non stop. We played everythingfrom original instrumental fusion type stuff, to Joni, to Dave, to all the harmony groups of the 60's and 70's. I don't play out much that more but when I do I really have fun. Now it's mostly playing for and with the kids at home and hoping my musical taste will rub off on them like my parents did me. I was just in Honduras for a few days and had the chance to stop into a club and sit in with some old friends and play some of the oldies. I just love that. Thanks again Paz NP-If I Had It All-DMB on 3/11/01 7:53 AM, P. Henry Boland at badwolff@angelfire.com wrote: > hi mike, > I'm sorry if I somehow gave the impression > that I wrote that... no, it was probably > written somewhere between selma and > mongomery... maybe by the same person who wrote 'hey nelly, nelly' (same type > of song... driving and in your face) I don't > know who the author is but Gil Scott Heron > put it on his 1980 album, 'Real Eyes': > http://www.gilscottheron.com/REAL.htm (that > is floating around on napster if you want to > hear how he did it... I haven't heard it) and > there is a link there to the lyrics the way > he does it. (different from mine some) > if you look at the joni ad in the gallery > at: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1502641&a=11682876&p=41512516&Sequence=0 > &res=high > you can see that the next week's performer > that december in '66 was a guy named Ron > Coden... well, Ron was the house performer and king at the best coffeehouse > around, the Raven and the first 'pro' folk oriented > artist I ever met, about 2yrs before I knew > Joni when I was just 15 and playing in my > first coffeehouse to a bunch of college kids. > it was Ron who taught me that song along with > 'early mornin' rain', 'hey nelly, nelly' and > my signature songs, 'you know my name' and 'if I had wings' as well as lots of > others. that was me, bro... pickin' up licks from the pros... I was really a > mockingbird who couldn't write a song to save my life... and that was my > downfall... > *ranting off topic now*..: > it may sound strange but if you've ever > stopped to wonder just why I gave up music > when I had everything going for me, a really > decent voice, a sufficient guitar style that > people liked, a *recording contract with > reprise* in the bag if I just wanted to sign > the papers and go make a record, that just > dropped in my lap way out in the sticks when > I'd never so much as sent out a demo tape! > (hell, I coulda blown away a LOT of the major > acts that made big money & fame around that > time!) well, you're the only one I've ever > really explained this to but the answer to > just what was it that cause me to give up my > music is that *it was Joni herself*! ...like > I said, it may sound strange... but it's > true. > see, I really really worked on my licks and > my sound and my stage presence and my look > and everything for 2 solid yrs before she > came to town... and I was, IMO, really > getting good... but what I was good at was > presenting what others had created or > arranged... and ya see, (this is hard to > explain) Joni and I became really tight... > and, tho I love her like crazy, it's just not > a good idea for someone so UNcreative to get > so close to the heat of someone like her. I > mean, it's not a pride thing... that could > never be an issue with her; it was just like > 'what's the point?'... like I got better and > better and didn't really know how far I could > go... and then Joni came along and showed me > undeniably just how far I *couldn't* go! > oh geez, I hope this makes *some* sense! the > ironic thing is that Joni really seemed to do > all she could to encourage me, and, as you > may have read before, I strongly suspect that > it was a word from her that prompted that > record contract offer... (it had to be > something to drag this company agent so far > off the beaten path when he coulda been in > phily, toronto, detroit, chicago, etc, where > there was SO much more happening... anyway, > it was just like 'standing next to her fire' > took all the wind out of my sails... my fault > not hers... my head/heart was screwed up ever > since my dad passed away when I was 12... > anybody else would have had to flourish in > such a lush environment... and I think a lot > did... (Rush, Anderson, Crosby, Stills, Nash, > Young... in fact, I might be nuts but I think > CSNY never woulda happened were it not for > Joni... just my opinion...) she's a muse, > man, she's a muse! ;o) > anyway, (wot a rant! LoL!) I really don't > have much of a voice left anymore... I AM > getting a mic for my puter and, if I can > figure out how, maybe I'll do something... > but I don't think I could ever do the Klan > again... that one takes a *lot* of voice! > we'll see, ok? :o) > btw, thanks for a really encouraging ltr, > mike... that was nice of ya... :) I mean yer > alright! I don't CARE what kakki says about > ya! when she starts, I just don't lissen! ;o)))) > > cheers, > pat > > NP; Refuge VHS - Woodstock (nice!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:31:20 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar Muller, part-time sex symbol, full-time Joni hater objected to: > "Then you began to hang up me > You studied to portray me " In addition to what Catherine said, (get WELL Catherine!) I'm thinking that * Using 'me' at the end of the line gives the following line, which also ends in "me" some symmetry. * She avoids the dangling prepositional. * Now that I see the two lines on a page, it even implies that the boyfriend is _examining_ the narrator, by placing her on the wall for examination, to use her as fodder for a new portrait. I know it's a stretch but if you hold this idea for just a second and re-read the couplet, you get. First line: He began to study me as a model. Second line: In order to portray me. I honestly don't think this was her *primary* meaning, but we all know that SIQUOMB works in mysterious and multiple ways. (Joni, I love your work.) And it does work very well that way. However I disagree that invoking "hang up" means that she's infatuated with him. I think she talking about "hang ups". As in, "I just can't enjoy hip-hop. It totally hangs me up." By reversing "me" and "up", she's breaking Michael Yarbourgh's "Stevie Wonder" rule. He objected to this (paraphrased) "When I was a little, nappy-headed boy, when my only worry, was what for Christmas what would be my toy." I stated when Michael put forth his law, that it didn't hang up me. :) As long as it doesn't result in a sing-song type of rhyme. My two cents. Lama np: a brown tabby cat in my lap, purring. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:23:03 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar << We're talking about writing songs here, not doctoral theses, right? >> I agree 100%, Mark...my purpose was just trying to provide examples of (possibly) awkward grammar for the guy who uses Joni songs in the classroom. When I taught 11th-12th grade Sunday School, I used lots of songs to make a point, and lots of Joni songs at that. I knew that Joni's lyrics would be unfathomable for a lot of these kids but if nothing else I was exposing them to her music. So I appreciate what an English Teacher is attempting to do and was just supporting his project... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:27:33 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar << Muller, part-time sex symbol, full-time Joni hater objected to: >> The only thing I object to is your description of me in this line. Please don't refer to me in this way again. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:51:15 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: NJC : Question Laurent, I have no idea what the answer to your question is, but welcome to the JMDL and our happy little family! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:45:11 -0500 From: "Sue Cameron" Subject: Welcome Hello Laurent, The list is a fun place to be. Best thing is that all of your questions will be answered....but not by me . Do not recognize the lyrics you mentioned as Joni's but I am sure that someone will pull through. Welcome! Sue Cameron N.P. dryer tumbling ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:59:02 -0500 From: "Diane Evans" Subject: Re: scrabble afternoon(njc) Hello, Victor! Scrabble is one of our favorite games, too. We also enjoy UpWords, a great twist on Scrabble. Boggle is fun when we want to play "quicker." In Scabble, my husband is devastating with solid blocks of small words...I like to make small plays until I have just the right letters to use those big pointers in 7-letter words. And I do it because it thoroughly irritates my husband. ;-) You said: >I won the third game That means Victor was victor! BW, Diane _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:02:01 EST From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC : Question In a message dated 3/11/01 1:11:10 PM, lfonquerne@noos.fr writes: << there is a commercial on the French TV. It is about mobile phone... You can hear a song and the only words I can understand are : Where do i begin, Where do I start. Or maybe it's when and not where... I believe this is Joni's voice, but I am not sure... Does someone know this song? >> Hi, Laurent. Welcome to the list. COuld the song be 'How Do You Stop' from 'Turbulent Indigo?' The lyrics are below, cut and pasted from jonimitchell.com. --Bob HOW DO YOU STOP? by Dan Hartman and Charlie Midnight Hard bodies Soft emotions So fast So smart The world is at your feet But what about your heart? Fame and fortune can't hold you tight In the late late hours of the night How do you stop Before it's too late? You choose and you lose If you hesitate How do you stop Before it's too late? You think love will wait So you don't hold on And then it's gone You've had success- Lots of fancy friends You've tasted the good life You thought it would never end One day you're too young Then you're in your prime Then you're looking back at the hands of time How do you stop Before it's too late? You choose and you lose If you hesitate How do you stop Before it's too late? You think love will wait So you don't hold on And then it's gone How do you stop a runaway train? How do you stop the driving rain? How do you stop the ripening corn? How do you stop a baby being born? How do you stop Before it's too late? You choose and you lose If you hesitate How do you stop Before it's too late? How do you stop? You're lost if you hesitate ... How do you stop Love from slipping away? How do you stop Before it's too late? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:14:40 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Grammar (VLJC) Hi folks, As a self-confessed English pedant (now there's a hostage to fortune), I am still puzzling over why the following line is being held to be incorrect in any way: "I didn't know I drank such a lot" If anyone was being mega-picky, you could insert the word "that" between "know" and "I", but is there something more obvious I've missed? As for "ain't", it could be argued that it's not so much grammatically wrong as sloppy - or just colloquial - English One of my favourite grammatical howlers is in Paul McCartney's Live & Let Die, which contains the immortal line "But in this ever-changing world in which we live in" Azeem in London, thinking of holding a memorial service for the correct use of the apostrophe... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:42:54 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: teasing NJC OR..... Paz (smiles) She's agreed to play jazz fest? (I hope the answer is that she's coming to play with us at Kakki's or at Ashara's...) ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:19:46 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) Someone might think that the reference was to just one occasion, in which case the correct tense would have been "I didn't know I had drunk such a lot." "I didn't know I drank such a lot" sounds ironic...i.e., "so you really think I drink a lot, eh?" and refers to ongoing behavior. DAVID LAHM npimh Mr Murphy, my 5th grade English teacher ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:28:52 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: She don't like my grammar uhh... sure thing Bob. > -----Original Message----- > From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com [mailto:SCJoniGuy@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 5:28 PM > To: jlamadoo@home.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar > > > << Muller, part-time sex symbol, full-time Joni hater objected to: >> > > The only thing I object to is your description of me in this line. Please > don't refer to me in this way again. > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:42:01 EST From: RPWieloh@cs.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #116 Hi to all, IM a new guy here and have been enjoying all the great information and exchange that is going on, thanks for welcoming me to your list. I feel that I should contribute some information concerning Jonatha Brooke I got this from WYEP's web site, its a local radio station that is filling a music void in our area of the world,Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania.Jonatha will appear locally at a place called "M" formally Metropool. "M" is located in a section of town known as the Strip District, the club is fine but tends to get very crowded and has very little seating, and in particular some lousy sight lines. I hope my first contribution is accepted in the spirit that it is intended and I hope for future input, Thanks again.Rich ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:46:11 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) 1) How does "Papa ooh mao mao" fit into all this. 2) Is "Rama lama ding dong" in any way grammatically correct? 3) What is past tense of "Bomp she bomp she bomp" 4) Shouldnt "Hey Joe where you goin' with that gun in yo hand" actually be "Where ARE you going with that gun in YOUR hand..." 5) Is "dip dadip dadip" in any tense at all. I have alot more questions but these are just for starters. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:12:40 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: She don't like my grammar - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > Bob wrote: > > > > It SHOULD be "you began to hang me up", right? > > > > > But as far as the sequencing of the words 'hang up > me' goes, setting > the double entendre aside, I think she's emphasizing > 'me'. In other > words, you painted all of those other women and then > you started to > paint *me*. I don't think you would get quite the > same meaning from > 'you began to hang me up'. I agree with your point and also what you said about grammar. Songs are more like conversational speech and conversational speech isn't always grammatically or semantically correct - but people usually understand you anyway. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:41:43 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: teasing NJC Sorry! No one has guessed yet! I don't mean to be mean, but I really don't wanna jinx it. If things work out it could be a big feather in the JMDL cap featuring on of our more wonderful listers and an huge asset to the list. We are an amazing community! Love Paz NP-Deja Vu-CSNPR/Walecki Benefit on 3/11/01 3:42 PM, Kate Bennett at kate@katebennett.com wrote: > OR..... > > Paz (smiles) > > She's agreed to play jazz fest? > > (I hope the answer is that she's coming to play with us at Kakki's or at > Ashara's...) > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com > Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: > http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html > ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:45:38 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) I was always partial to BOOM shakalakalaka Boom shakalakalaka & tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit ah..... Paz NP-Wooden Ships-CSNPR/Walecki Benefit on 3/11/01 6:46 PM, MDESTE1@aol.com at MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > 1) How does "Papa ooh mao mao" fit into all this. > 2) Is "Rama lama ding dong" in any way grammatically correct? > 3) What is past tense of "Bomp she bomp she bomp" > 4) Shouldnt "Hey Joe where you goin' with that gun in yo hand" actually be > "Where ARE you going with that gun in YOUR hand..." > 5) Is "dip dadip dadip" in any tense at all. > > I have alot more questions but these are just for starters. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:55:21 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) In a message dated 3/11/01 7:25:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, AzeemAK@aol.com writes: << As a self-confessed English pedant (now there's a hostage to fortune), I am still puzzling over why the following line is being held to be incorrect in any way: "I didn't know I drank such a lot" >> The "such a lot" could be considered awkward phrasing compared with "I didn't know I drank so much." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:13:47 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2001 #116 Rich P Wieloh said: > I hope my first contribution is accepted in the spirit that it is > intended and I hope for future input, Thanks again.Rich Welcome Rich! Trust us, we are loving people! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:13:50 -0500 From: "Louis Lynch" Subject: Re: Grammar (VLJC) (md) OK, Marcel, someone finally lured me into this thread. Joni uses bad grammar in her songs, especially when she's referring to conversation or writing in dialect. As Marcel's "rama dama ding dong" so cogently exemplified... Grammar and poetry are circles that intersect but do not overlap. Poetry simply doesn't follow the rules of grammar, and it never did. Bad grammar has been used in song for centuries: Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby? Ain't No Mountain High Enough Twas a Lover and His Lass (Shakespearean, Dowland?) Poets have always twisted words around. Lewis Carroll and ee cummings were particularly brilliant at doing it. Even Homer did it, plus he was foolhardy enough to do it in ancient Greek! Naturally Joni would want to write with bad grammar sometimes -- she's writing about rock and roll people and modern times. She's also one of this century's best wordsmiths, so if Shakespeare and Homer and T. S. Eliot used bad grammar, then we have to be fair and let Joni Mitchell use it as much as she wants (as long as she doesn't overdo it and the commas are in the right places). [Thanks, Marcel, you make me laugh... And the past tense of Bomp She Bomp is "Had Bomped" and the subjunctive past is "She Bomp a Loo La."] It's fun to find these little nuances of poetic license in anyone's work. But... "She don't like my kick-pleat skirt, she don't like my eyelids painted green...." Just couldn't be written any better, I think. Musingly, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:23:26 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Grammar (nJC) AzeemAK@aol.com wrote: > One of my favourite grammatical howlers is in Paul McCartney's Live & Let > Die, which contains the immortal line > > "But in this ever-changing world in which we live in" It's not quite that bad... The actual line is But IF this ever-changing world in which we live in makes you give in or cry, Live and let die okay, still not great, but the music kicks ass! RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:26:09 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: the klan (forgive the rant) Pat, thanks for sharing this. I find it very interesting. "P. Henry Boland" wrote: > hi mike, > true. > see, I really really worked on my licks and > my sound and my stage presence and my look > and everything for 2 solid yrs before she > came to town... and I was, IMO, really > getting good... but what I was good at was > p ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #117 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?