From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #84 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, February 19 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 084 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC ["Deb Messling" ] RE: One question ["Garret" ] Re: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC [Randy Remote ] Ethiopia ["c Karma" ] Trivia question NJC [john low ] Re: Tea Leaf Prophecy & Ethiopia (somewhat long) ["Lonely Painter" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:14:17 -0500 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC Schools and school librarians need to cite more than "free speech" as a justification for showing KKK sites to kids. They would also need to cite a valid educational purpose. I'm not an educator, but I'm guessing that the teachers/librarians could achieve their educational goal without giving web hits to hate groups! I guess I would want my kids to learn that these groups exist, but that it is acceptable to SHUN THEM - that decent people deem them unworthy of notice. On the very big other hand, as a public library administrator, I would oppose the censoring of these sites outside of a school environment. Legally, we can't censor political speech, and this crap is political speech. - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling "I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat." ~Joni Mitchell - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:19:49 -0000 From: "Garret" Subject: Enya and so on. (SJC) i don't really have too much of an opinion regarding Enya. to be honest she is sort of a joke, i think, among my peers. i can't even say that i admire her talent becasue i just amn't too familiar with her work. i think Orinoco Flow is catchy, but that's about it! Maire Brennan, now that's another issue..... SHE played a free "music and chat" session at my college recently, and i had somehow convinced all of my friends that this would be cool (every intention of asking her why she chose to cover BYT and than also BSN with Paul whats his name). but i came down with a virus and couldnt go:-( was housebound for ten days!!! i saw an interview with Enya on teh Pat Kenny show when her album came out a few years ago. she wasn't a great guest. very purse lipped and unfriendly. Cher would have been a far better guest, eh? ;-) and while i'm rambling about IRish singers i may as well go on... Sinead O Connor walked into the bar where i work recently. i am kind of a fan, in teh "my friend is totally obsessed and so now i know - and like- a lot of her music" way. she looked awful, very dirty and totally out of it. i didnt think she did drugs, not after that debacle with Shane McGowan last year or the year before, but that day she looked strung out. although that is probably unfair to say. i did nt see Sinead O Connor, i saw a dirty looking young woman whom i assumed would be asked to leave. my boss amde some comment along the lines of "does anyone want confession" before i recognised her. and she had decided at that point not to stay and walked out teh door. and one more story... Brian Kennedy, he covered ACOY and so many people on this list seemed relatively unaware of who he is- well he is a celeb here anyway, also came into our bar and ordered a sandwich and tea. i know, who knew that famous people had to eat?? anyway, teh man that makes that sandwiches is a big fan of Kennedys and asked Ciaran (one of our junior managers) to ask for an autograph. so he did. and Brian Kennedy told him that he's "scrumptious". strange!! anyhow, i'm finally getting to my point. philip said of an enya song: >Then someone realised that the melody was >identical to a TV commercial for gas home heating which featured 3 dancing >bears, So much for all that celtic mysticism. :) Is this the fifty fifty cash back ad? if so, or even if not i suppose, this gave the biggest laugh i've had in weeks!! thanks, lol....still chuckling! GARRET NP- Sexy Boy by Air ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:53:14 -0000 From: "Garret" Subject: RE: One question ok, so i'm not going to pose a question for Joni but are you telling me that Prince has covered One of Us?? i'm a big Joan Osbourne fan and never kenw this!!! AND it's infitely better than Osbournes version? no way!! is this track available?? i'd love to hear it! GARRET NP- Pixies- Here Comes Your Man ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:41:46 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC I think 13 year olds are smarter than some are giving them credit for. If teachers were merely distributing Klan pamphlets without comment or randomly giving out the URLs of their websites, that would not be good. But the given context is a study of the KKK. Let them see the material themselves. Let them see how reasonable (or blatant or slanted) it seems, and discuss the use of propaganda and recruitment and racism. What you will find is that the kids will intuitively figure out right from wrong. Some of the kids are already racist due to family or peer programming, and that is that. Maybe a few fence sitters will rethink their positions. The rest will figure it out. Why hide it? MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > Many on this list have mocked religion and its manifestations > for instance but that is precisely what it is for. To provide an anchor that > regardless of how much raw intellectual wind blows aganist the body of moral > and ethical thinking that the child/teen is held fast to ethical and moral > judgement that serves to reveal such mutant thinking as espoused by the KKK. I have a few problems with this. 1. Religion has caused more death and division than any other field of human activity, not just in history, but right now. Ethnic cleansing, etc etc every war has been fought with 'God on our side'. 2. The same people that go to Klan meetings in the south go to church the next day. It's no coincidence that they burn crosses. They find stuff in the Bible to justify their superiority. 3. Religion has had thousands of years to get rid of hate and violence and has not done it. On the contrary it's often used to justify or promote it. Some muslims believe if you kill an infidel (a Christian, American or?) you get sent directly to heaven. Some American Christians hate Jews. 4. I agree with your point that the kids need a moral compass, and they need it get it from their home life. Racism or the abhorance of it is almost always learned in the home, and has nothing to do with the presence or absence of religion. RR Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Okay, here's a case for discussion. My sister-in-law is a librarian at a > public middle school housing 13 year-old children in a rural atmosphere. > She told me that they are studying the Ku Klux Klan so she, *the librarian* > > "opened up the web browsers so the kids could read the Klan's web sites > firsthand". > > I was completely shocked. I said that kids should *never* have access to > Klan sites in a public school. She countered with, "Well, that would be > censorship. They should have free access to do research." > > I said, "No Anne. Let's say it's 1960 and there is no Internet. Are you > saying that if the kids were studying the Klan, that you would allow the > Klan to distribute a pamphlet (written *by* the Klan) to the school kids? > Kids don't need to see the Klan's point of view in their own words. The > Klan is pretty good at portraying themselves as a religious group and it > might seem reasonable to a child if they are exposed to primary material, > recruiting material from the Klan. > > "School children need to have the Klan *interpreted* for them. I mean, if > not, there would be no stopping point. > > "In sex ed class, if you told the 13 year-old kids about masturbation, are > you gonna distribute still photos of couples having sex so they can make up > their own minds about pornography? Or let's say you're discussing Current > Events. If there's a bomb on a bus in Israel, are you gonna distribute > instructions on building pipe bombs? Are you gonna let 13 year olds read > the manifestos of terrorists like the Unibomber too?" > > I think my sister-in-law is way wrong on this one. Other opinions? > > Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:37:04 -0500 From: "Mike Hicks" Subject: Re: *My final word on the 'E' woman > From: RK1THXguy@aol.com > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:50:24 EST > Subject: *My final word on the 'E' woman > To: joni@smoe.org > Reply-to: RK1THXguy@aol.com > Greetings Mike - In the hopes that I might really 'stir some shit' = here is > my final take on the 'E' woman. > > In your message dated 2/15/01 1:40:16 PM, you write: << The only response to > this piece of shit is that you know, in time, she may have as much impact on > music as Joni Mitchell. >> > * I'm not sure if you are referring to me as a piece of shit, or to my > pointed and accurate opinion of Enya? Either way, I respect your opinion. I > am everyday, in order that I remain healthy, reduced to a piece of shit - as > are we all - BUT - before your 'wild fantasy' that Enya might ever hope to > have any lasting impact on music to ever happen - Enya must first begin to > actually write and perform some 'music' - not these ridiculously dense, > pretentiously ambiguous 'jingles' for the "pastliferegressionin' / > angelbelievin' / ShirleyMacLainereadin'" yogurt and wheat grass crowd. (its a > shame what happened to a wonderful dancer and fine comedic actress) > > You also write: << She's only been out there since the mid 80's and already > has about 5 or 6 quality albums out. >> > * Well - she is certainly 'out there' - but the only thing quality about > Enya's albums is the packaging. As an artist and graphic designer I give > credit to the packaging - but a turd in pretty paper, no matter how pretty, > is still a turd. > > You also wrote: << If one does take time to go past the beautiful music, they > will hear lyrics that do have balls. >> > * That's just it - no one with any depth of musical sensibility - can > ENDURE the experience of struggling to get past the (I'll be exceedingly > charitable and use your term) "beautiful music' - (beautiful maybe if you're > a Montovani or Yanni fan). Mike, Enya gets played at my house, my wife > really likes her. (see how tolerant I am) I have read the lyrics printed on > Enya's CD's for the sole purpose of trying to discover what attracts my wife. > If one were to toss out the hopelessly syrupy MUZAK accompaniment - the > lyrics would still be very very BAD, trite, and dimensionless juvenile > poetry! My god - if Enya really does have something to say - she should take > a lesson from Joni and just friggin' say it - spit it out! Wrap it in > somethin' palatable and cough it up!! Trying to chew through one of Enya's > puffed up confections in a vain attempt to find some substance will have the > unavoidable result that too much 'candy' will always have, a massive > headache, followed by vomiting or coma - and the net result of 'no > nutritional value'! > > You also wrote: << You have to do a little searching, something you may have > a problem with. >> > * I have a real problem with searching in an 'empty room' - there just > isn't anything in there to find Mike. > > You also wrote: << Kinda hard to believe someone like you is on THIS list. >> > * Well sorry Mike - I'm here - opinionated and lovable as hell. BUT the > reason I'm here is because way back in the 60's I discovered this remarkable > talent, this magical artist, this poetess, this genuine entity whose name is > Joni Mitchell - a women whose spiritual insight and profound understanding of > what it is to be human, direct, vulnerable, resilient, and courageous enough > to 'tell it like it is' - so touched me, so touched my soul and my mind, so > impacted me with her openness, honesty, and depth - that she gave me the > enduring hope to believe that the true beauty of the world, of the human soul > and psyche is worth 'searching out' and celebrating, both the sweet and the > difficult. In this temporal world in which we live, Joni Mitchell is a rich, > delicious, eternal fragrance for the soul & mind - Enya is just 'cheap > cologne'. This outspoken, controversial, arrogant, 'salty' sonofabitch, > 'grumpy old man' is on this list because of Joni! Nice to meet you Mike. > Love you too man! OK - there, let me check. Yep, the shit looks > sufficiently stirred :-) > > RK of Stumptown > > NP: 'Watermark' I was referring to your response. I feel the same about Joni Mitchell as you do. And, I respect everyone's taste in music. Isn't it great that Joni Mitchell isn't the only artist ever to write and sing? Now that is boring. So, you see, there are some of "us" out there that appreciate "out there". Just because you don't "doesn't mean shit to a tree". Bash all you want. I will still love Joni's music even if you don't like Enya. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:21:51 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: Sunset Pig In a message dated 2/18/01 4:49:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, jmichaelpaz@telocity.com writes: << A sunset pig in 'California' is an old antique wooden pig she had in her Laurel Canyon house. It's in the Jim Marshall pic of her at the piano with the DULCIMER...LOL! It can be seen in the 1976 biography 'Joni Mitchell, Her Life, Her Loves, Her Music... Steve >> yes, she had one giant antique pig, one turkey made out of pinecones one Art Nouveau lamp in the shape of a frog on a lily pad one hand carved hat rack and several brown velvet rocking chairs oh, and one grandfather clock given to her by Leonard Cohen according to Hinton I just uploaded that Jim Marshall PIC of her sitting at the piano on Jonimitchellfans if anyone would care to see it. - -Rose in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:22:30 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: One question NJC << ok, so i'm not going to pose a question for Joni but are you telling me that Prince has covered One of Us?? i'm a big Joan Osbourne fan and never kenw this!!! AND it's infitely better than Osbournes version? no way!! is this track available?? i'd love to hear it! >> Hi Garrett, Prince recorded this tune on his 3-CD MASTERPIECE called "Emancipation". It is by far one of the finest things to come out of the 90's, a 3-CD collection, 12 songs/60 minutes on each CD. The first time I heard it I liked almost all of it (rare for me, believe it or not). Within a month I loved it all. Very few artists can put out a solid-from-start-to-finish record, only a handful have made double albums that were worth a damn. This one is three solid hours celebrating the past, present, and future of soul and funk. It's brilliant. Besides Eric Bazilian's "One of Us", he also does great covers of "Betcha By Golly Wow" & "I Can't Make You Love Me". Better than Joan's? I dunno, they don't have to compete. They're both fab to me! An unbelievable super set. Sadly, I'm the only one on the planet to realize this. Bob, back & caught up! ;~) NP: Denise Norton, "Woodstock" (gawd the piano is awesome!!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:31:12 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Abbey Road interactive (NJC) Happy Sunday Everyone- I wanted to post that I have a Abbey Road Interactive CD Rom (Apple Mac computers only {sorry PC people, but hey GET A REAL COMPUTER!!!}) that gives a really cool tour of the facilities and you can look around the whole facility and do 360's in all the rooms. If anyone would like a copy I am happy to share. In studio cleaning today I found an extra copy of Tito Puente Live at Birdland. This is an actual commercially available cd from a retail store. If anyone is interested in it I will send it to you free of charge. I will give it to the first one that responds to me privately and I will send it to you. If I get too many requests for the Abbey Road tour thingy maybe some other Mac folks wouldn't mind helping out. Have a great week everyone. Love Paz NP-Wild About My Lovin-Linda Ronstadt and the Stone Poneys ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:42:04 From: "c Karma" Subject: Ethiopia I had to put my two cents worth in on behalf of the much maligned "Ethiopia." IMHO, it's a studio masterpiece. Give it another listen folks, but under headphones in a quiet room with not too much volume. You'll be swatting flies off yourself and wiping sweat from your upper lip before you know it. CC "Suntans in reservation dining rooms, pale miners in their lantern rays." -- JM _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:35 +1000 From: john low Subject: Trivia question NJC Hello everyone, When you need the answer to a piece of musical trivia where do you turn but to the 'music sluts' on the jmdl. I know it's disgraceful to delurk for such a non-Joni reason but I'm desperate. At work we are trying to complete a quiz which is held annually among some of our libraries here, but we are stumped by one question and it happens to be of a musical nature: What honour did Michael Jackson and the artist formerly known as Prince share in 1997? Can any of you musical trivia geniuses help? Cheers, John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email server is running an evaluation copy of the MailShield anti- spam software. Please contact your email administrator if you have any questions about this message. MailShield product info: www.mailshield.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:05:46 -0700 From: "Lonely Painter" Subject: Re: Tea Leaf Prophecy & Ethiopia (somewhat long) I've always loved Tea Leaf Prophecy. It is one of three songs from CMIARS that I like. I enjoy Joni's 'layered' songs. The chants like: 'study war no more', 'lay down your arms', 'lay 'em down, lay 'em down, now' are beautiful, and affects me on an emotional level. (True enough it's brought tears to my eyes even though I am two generations removed from WWII. I think she brings a real sense of what it was like for young women and men then. I especially love the line: "Look at this town, there's no men left. Just frail old boys and babies, talking to teacher in the treble clef." Must have been nice to hear that young flight sergeant talking in the bass clef for a change. ('Sit up late, watch the Johnny Carson show' - they watched Johnny?) Another 'layered' song is 'The Windfall' or 'Everything for Nothing' (whichever you please) with the same background chant thing going on. 'Come in From the Cold' is another as well. I think it adds so much more to the song, and really makes you listen to all the respective layers and how they fit into the piece overall. Great stuff. Ethiopia always chilled me. Brought me straight back to the 80s with this one. (But then WTRF and DED do this to me anyway) I remember as a child in the 80s seeing those World Vision-type programs about starvation and derth in Ethiopia and El Salvador and such, and being scared half to death. The lyric 'A TV star with a PR smile calls your baby 'it' while strolling through your tragic trial' gets a vigorous nod from me. There's also something about that background wail of children that makes the listener very uncomfortable, and rightfully so. DED was the second Joni album I purchased, and I love the whole thing. If there are and Sade fans out there, you've probably thought about parallels with the song about the woman in Somalia. (I think its called 'Pearls') I get the same chills from that one, too. 'There is a woman in Somalia, scraping for pearls by the roadside, there's a force stronger than nature keeps her will alive. This is how she's dying, she's dying to survive. Don't know what she's made of, I would like to be that brave/Long as afternoon shadows, it's gonna take her to get home, each grain carefully wrapped up, pearls for her little girl'. How absolutely haunting. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:36:02 -0700 From: "Brett Code" Subject: FW: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC I wish that this didn't involve 13 year olds. If it were older people, the answer would be easy. Freedom, freedom, freedom. But, as I sit here, I just don't know - don't know enough about how kids differentiate and distinguish, learn. Hey Daddy, let's go get some girls, one for you, and one for me. When do we get to an age of differentiation? Brett - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Randy Remote Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 4:42 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC I think 13 year olds are smarter than some are giving them credit for. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #84 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?