From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #83 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, February 18 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 083 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Tea Leaf Prophecy & Ethiopia (somewhat long) ["Lonely Painter" ] KKK,. white hate groups NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: KKK,. white hate groups NJC ["Emma Caywood" ] jonatha NJC [Yael Harlap ] Re: Branford Marsalis(NJC) [FredNow@aol.com] 1 question [Tyler Hewitt ] This JUST in Jonatha report (NJC) [Michael Paz ] FW: Sunset Pig [Michael Paz ] Re: ???? (NJC) [Michael Paz ] RE: NJC-Jonatha ["Nikki Johnson" ] Re: Branford Marsalis(NJC) [FredNow@aol.com] RE: ???? (NJC) ["Nikki Johnson" ] Re: ???? (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: Klan site (NJC) (somewhat long diatribe) [Michael Paz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:37:58 -0700 From: "Lonely Painter" Subject: Re: Tea Leaf Prophecy & Ethiopia (somewhat long) I've always loved Tea Leaf Prophecy. It is one of three songs from CMIARS that I like. I enjoy Joni's 'layered' songs. The chants like: 'study war no more', 'lay down your arms', 'lay 'em down, lay 'em down, now' are beautiful, and affects me on an emotional level. (True enough it's brought tears to my eyes even though I am two generations removed from WWII. I think she brings a real sense of what it was like for young women and men then. I especially love the line: "Look at this town, there's no men left. Just frail old boys and babies, talking to teacher in the treble clef." Must have been nice to hear that young flight sergeant talking in the bass clef for a change. ('Sit up late, watch the Johnny Carson show' - they watched Johnny?) Another 'layered' song is 'The Windfall' or 'Everything for Nothing' (whichever you please) with the same background chant thing going on. 'Come in From the Cold' is another as well. I think it adds so much more to the song, and really makes you listen to all the respective layers and how they fit into the piece overall. Great stuff. Ethiopia always chilled me. Brought me straight back to the 80s with this one. (But then WTRF and DED do this to me anyway) I remember as a child in the 80s seeing those World Vision-type programs about starvation and derth in Ethiopia and El Salvador and such, and being scared half to death. The lyric 'A TV star with a PR smile calls your baby 'it' while strolling through your tragic trial' gets a vigorous nod from me. There's also something about that background wail of children that makes the listener very uncomfortable, and rightfully so. DED was the second Joni album I purchased, and I love the whole thing. If there are and Sade fans out there, you've probably thought about parallels with the song about the woman in Somalia. (I think its called 'Pearls') I get the same chills from that one, too. 'There is a woman in Somalia, scraping for pearls by the roadside, there's a force stronger than nature keeps her will alive. This is how she's dying, she's dying to survive. Don't know what she's made of, I would like to be that brave/Long as afternoon shadows, it's gonna take her to get home, each grain carefully wrapped up, pearls for her little girl'. How absolutely haunting. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:01:57 -0700 From: "Lonely Painter" Subject: RE: Klan site (NJC) (somewhat long diatribe) I'm with you on this one, Jim. I think even giving the Klan the time of day is a mistake. Yes, kids need to know there are groups like the Klan out there. Unfortunately, (in my opinionated opinion), there is a huge lack of morals, conscience, whatever you want to call it, in this society we think is so civilized. These children are so far removed from all the racial 'tensions' of the past that they have no real context. Show them as many videos and documentaries of past events as you want. Many 13-year-olds are nowhere near the level of maturity needed to make wise distinctions. And I don't care how many of you out there think your own little 13-years olds can. If we think that showing kids the actual sites of Klan members is somehow 'teaching' them, we need to wake up. This takes 'free speech' and 'censorship' to extremes that were never meant to be breeched. If the teachers are showing the kids the sites and saying "Look what these people believe - don't you believe it now" who is to say the little kiddies are going to behave themselves and not start thinking 'what fun!' instead? The kids have to know that such behaviour is unacceptable. To let them 'make up their own minds' in this matter is dangerous. Kids only learn acceptable behaviour if they are taught. As the saying goes where I come from 'Monkey see, monkey do'. Do I think Klan sites should never see the light of day in any situation? DAMN RIGHT! (Censor this!) By allowing such material to persist under the guise of some misplaced notion that censorship is bad, we allow hate to persist. But oh, no, we can't censor hate, can we? It is a natural expression! We can't let those poor Klan people not have a place to express themselves, right? That wouldn't be fair to them! Gimmie a break! Peace, lonely painter _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 00:01:06 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC Lama and Emma wrote: > >"School children need to have the Klan *interpreted* for them. I mean, if > >not, there would be no stopping point. > > But they also have to read the literature first hand, in order to see > THROUGH the code. What strikes me about all this (and maybe I'm hopelessly obtuse) is that if the students are being given a well-rounded and grounded education to begin with, they should feel no need to search out any further first hand literature about the Klan. Wouldn't they just know it is wrong, period, and not have to investigate further to see for themselves? Through my years in high school, my campus was littered > with pamphlets from various neo-nazi/white > supremacist/anti-gay/anti-whatever groups. This is amazing to me. I know you are young, Emma, and it blows me away that in such recent times literature like this would be allowed to be disseminated on your high school campus. Free speech is all fine and good, but who says a high school campus has to allow its campus to be littered with such stuff? >What if i had simply been blindly taught that these groups were wrong in the past, and never been given the > tools to know why? Then i pick up their literature, and it all seems > reasonable to me, and i'm an easy target. Kids must be taught the truth > about these people, and learn to read between their lies in order to really > not buy into them. They need to understand the whys and wherefores and not > just blindly know that they are wrong, because that leaves them open for > conversion. Geez, everything they are exposed to from Kindergarten on should lead them to know these groups are wrong. > In large Jewish populations, i know that it's pretty much customary to show > all Junior High students "The Wave." It's this film of a class of students > who's teacher teaches them class pride to the extent that they will not talk > to anyone from another class and are willing to hurt their friends if they > don't go along with the movement. At the end, the teacher tells them that > this is now Hitler got his troops. It's not well filmed, and i think it > loses kids that way, but the message is clear and pertinent to kids of that > age. If you don't know what you need to watch out for, you'll be easier > prey. This sounds like an excellent film and it would be good for all junior high students (and also some adults as a refresher course) to see. This is an example of what I mean when I say that the schools' curriculum should naturally lead the students to discern basic right from wrong. I think that students should not neccesarily barred access from the Klan web sites (sometimes what is prohibited is likely to intrigue some children) but if it is allowed the teachers should first portray it as the undesirable entity it is. This is not to say the teachers should merely tell the students, "it's wrong, take my word for it" - they can certainly back up this stance with a long list of historical facts to prove it. Teach your children well. Kakki, probably obtuse ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 03:49:45 -0600 From: "Emma Caywood" Subject: Re: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC Lonely Painter said: >Do I think Klan sites should never see the light of day in any situation? >DAMN RIGHT! (Censor this!) By allowing such material to persist under the >guise of some misplaced notion that censorship is bad, we allow hate to >persist. But oh, no, we can't censor hate, can we? It is a natural >expression! We can't let those poor Klan people not have a place to express >themselves, right? That wouldn't be fair to them! Gimmie a break! Okay, so who gets to make these censorship rules? Who draws the line at this? The Government? Well, then off goes all the pages up about Weed. 'Cause weed is also evil. And sex. All pages, kama sutra educational style or porn style go away. Or stickly purely to the hate groups, I think that any Lesbian Avenger stuff would be be taken down under that ruling, 'cause they do mean and evil stuff to people they don't like...that they hate. Sure, you can say from your liberal mindset that all who hate can't publish and feel all safe about it, but who's idea of what should be hated and what shouldn't should be the law? 'Cause those in power don't like gays or weed smokers too much, but I doubt most of the people on this list want those people silenced. Kakki said: >with, they should feel no need to search out any further first hand >literature about the Klan. Wouldn't they just know it is wrong, period, >and >not have to investigate further to see for themselves? And students don't have purely accademic curiousity about this? Reading those sites really blow your mind to what humans are capable, in a bad way. These people exist. And if we understand how they go wrong and what's up with their methods of thought, we can better understand humans and thus, ourselves. >This is amazing to me. I know you are young, Emma, and it blows me away >that in such recent times literature like this would be allowed to be >disseminated on your high school campus. They have to stand on the ohter side of the street or just the boardering sidewalk, depending on HOW psychotic the cops deem them. And the cops stay there to make sure students don't hurt the people. Like how an anti-gay guy got threatened by this baseball player with his bat. But they're legally allowed to be near the property. It's within their rights. And my former HS was rated very important to these groups, becaues it's one of the top schools in the nation and in a really wealthy area. (New Trier in the Chicago area.) You can't legally make them not do it. Or stop the Giddeons from handing out Bibles once a year. They're within their rights. DOesn't mean the adminisitration likes it, but there's nothing you can do with protestors or people like that. Northwestern gets a lot of them, too. >they can certainly back up >this stance with a long list of historical facts to prove it. Teach your >children well. But they still need to learn how to read though the code. So they don't get tricked by something much less well known in the future. To have a well develped moral compass, one should be able to see the killer as a killer, rather hear about him and judge from stories. And most would be repulsed by it, when they read it, if you do teach them well. I don't think that censoring is teaching well. If they're taught well they'll have to stop looking soon because they'll be repulsed. If they're drawn to the Klan's ideals, I HARDLY THINK this was a fault of the librarian for showing it to them. Those ideas are preplanted to become enticing. And if they're there, there're no way to get them out. What's his name, that guy who killed Ricky Birdsong a few years back traced his hatred for non-whites back to 8th grade (at my Junior High) studying the Holocaust. Instead of seeing the horrors (and this was the same teacher as i had, it did not glorify nazis AT ALL.) he got to hate the Jews. In a 45% jewish school or something like that. So he learned it in junior high without websites (also pre public internet) and without anyone exposing him to anything but facts about tragedies. He was an easy target to begin with, for some reason. What's my point? Well, I don't think showing a website to kids encourages anything, and if it does, then there's something wrong with the kids wiring already, and you didn't do anything that wouldn't have happened anyhow. Emma (wordy). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:32:39 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC Emma wrote: > And students don't have purely accademic curiousity about this? Reading > those sites really blow your mind to what humans are capable, in a bad way. > These people exist. And if we understand how they go wrong and what's up > with their methods of thought, we can better understand humans and thus, > ourselves. I'm all for a knowledgeable teacher showing the reality of these groups to the students. Teaching about the Klan, the Holocaust, all of that should be required in schools. > They have to stand on the ohter side of the street or just the boardering > sidewalk, depending on HOW psychotic the cops deem them. And the cops stay > there to make sure students don't hurt the people. Like how an anti-gay guy > got threatened by this baseball player with his bat. But they're legally > allowed to be near the property. It's within their rights. . I understand more clearly now - I thought you were indicating in your previous post that the school allows them on the campus itself. > But they still need to learn how to read though the code. So they don't get > tricked by something much less well known in the future. To have a well > develped moral compass, one should be able to see the killer as a killer, > rather hear about him and judge from stories. And most would be repulsed by > it, when they read it, if you do teach them well. I guess what I don't get is this "reading through the code" - it can be proven beyond any doubt quite quickly what these groups are about, so why would one have to read through their code to understand it any clearer? All I had to see at 13 was one photograph of a lynching and that about summed it up for me. The white hooded thing is also scary enough on it's own, too. Maybe teaching methods were more simpler in my time. > I don't think that censoring is teaching well. If they're taught well they'll have to stop > looking soon because they'll be repulsed. If they're drawn to the Klan's > ideals, I HARDLY THINK this was a fault of the librarian for showing it to > them. Those ideas are preplanted to become enticing. And if they're there, > there're no way to get them out. What's his name, that guy who killed Ricky > Birdsong a few years back traced his hatred for non-whites back to 8th grade > (at my Junior High) studying the Holocaust. Instead of seeing the horrors > (and this was the same teacher as i had, it did not glorify nazis AT ALL.) > he got to hate the Jews. In a 45% jewish school or something like that. So > he learned it in junior high without websites (also pre public internet) and > without anyone exposing him to anything but facts about tragedies. He was an > easy target to begin with, for some reason. What's my point? Well, I don't > think showing a website to kids encourages anything, and if it does, then > there's something wrong with the kids wiring already, and you didn't do > anything that wouldn't have happened anyhow. I agree with what you are saying. But if there is something wrong with a kid's wiring to begin with, all the decoding in the world isn't going to reform him. The parents should also be involved in teaching their children (unless the parents are part of the problem to begin with, and then you have a bigger issue). I guess my point is that it wouldn't seem right for a school or librarian or whoever to just say to a kid "here's all these web sites for you to freely peruse, and come to your own intellectual conclusion." Rather, it should be tied in with the teacher laying a foundation first and making a lesson out of it. I can understand where Lonely Painter is coming from, too - it often seems today that some people go overboard in their vigilance for free speech and think that any kind of discernment is automatically "censorship." Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:16:12 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC (md) My comment about all this is fairly simple. When a child or teen goes to any website the real question is the source of his intellectual anchor and the quality of it. Many on this list have mocked religion and its manifestations for instance but that is precisely what it is for. To provide an anchor that regardless of how much raw intellectual wind blows aganist the body of moral and ethical thinking that the child/teen is held fast to ethical and moral judgement that serves to reveal such mutant thinking as espoused by the KKK. Those who promote relativist moral code in which anything is ok so long as the person believes it is ok are the very same people who need to fear the KKK websites and many other websites. Now of course certain "intellectuals" will recite a litanny of bad religion-based historical incidents but the fact that a Pope impregnated a nun in 1650 is irrelevant. The fact is that moral upbringing of children innoculates them against both political mutants and moral mutants like porn sites. They may go there, they may see whats there, but in all likelyhood they wont be influenced by whats there. This is how true free speech is protected. Not by external "laws" but by internal intellectual anchors. This is what parents are supposed to give to their children. Now if a parent feels that anything the kid does is ok and makes excuses for bad thinking and chooses to ignore the bomb materials he has found in the kids bedroom under the bed then he has a great deal to worry about with respect to websites. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:30:41 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: KKK and "other" websites (NJC) (md) As usual while the KKK website is used as the example for hate (which it categorically is) I have to wonder how it is that "correct thinking" groups evade being given the same label even though they do the same things. How many would allow our kids to visit and learn at the websites of this group? I call this the "double standard test". Maybe those still in mourning over Florida could comment off list to me about this website. The Boy Who Cried 'ELF' Is the Earth Liberation Front guilty of hate crimes? Wall Street Journal Sunday, February 18, 2001 12:01 a.m. EST They style themselves latter-day Robin Hoods, taking from the rich and saving the earth. In fact, if the Earth Liberation Front has a spiritual ancestor, it is with the night riders of the Ku Klux Klan, a point inadvertently underscored by the haunting image of a burning house that ELF uses to open its own Web page. Up to now they've had a charmed existence, because no one has been killed by the fires and mayhem of "economic sabotage" the group estimates at $37 million. Nor, until recently, has anyone yet been convicted. ELF's preferred weapon is the firebomb, which it used to spectacular effect in its largest action, the 1998 burning of the ski resort being built in Vail, Colorado, which caused $12 million in damage. But it's not just skiers. ELF kicked off the new millennium with its January 1 burning down of the headquarters of the Superior Lumber Company in Glendale, Ore.; the communique read, "This year, 2001, we hope to see an escalation in tactics against capitalism and industry." In September it was the Republican headquarters of Monroe County in Indiana. And before that it was another lab, a U.S. Forest Service research facility in Wisconsin. But as ELF escalates, it's more likely that some of its torchers will finally be caught. On Friday a Long Island high school senior, Jared McIntyre, pleaded guilty to arson. Mr. McIntyre was thought to be involved in attacks these past few months that included the torching of nine houses under construction, the trampling of a cornfield used by researchers at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory as well as attacks on a number of other targets, including a construction company's equipment. Spray-painted on the wall of one of the houses was this vow: "If you build it, we will burn it." Thus far, despite ELF's extraordinary run of arson, public outrage hasn't caught up with the crimes, which the group boasts about on various Internet sites. Because its targets have been corporations, construction sites and research labs, there has been an inclination to dismiss the group as misguided idealists. But that's not the view they have at the FBI, whose Director Louis Freeh told Congress that ELF and its offshoots rank at the top of America's domestic terrorist threats. Far from going away, ELF seems to be inspiring new legends and finding new friends. Most recently it has found common cause with the self-styled Animal Liberation Front, whose cutesy-pie name belies its dangerous stunts. Though attacking fur outlets remains a favorite--earlier this week several sympathizers were arrested at Macy's on Long Island. ELF also has become infamous among medical researchers for arson and attacks on laboratories, such as the University of Pennsylvania's Head Injury Laboratory. As ELF's spokesman, Craig Rosebraugh, has conceded, "The main difference between ELF and ALF is their names." Because ELF is less a formal organization than a confederacy of disaffected activists, it has been hard for authorities to penetrate. But it doesn't make the activists any less deadly. McIntyre, for example, was described by Newsday as a bright student, who himself had been working at Brookhaven National Laboratory, who went from meeting some like-minded souls at an animal rights rally to downloading methods and information from the ELF Web site. ELF has been fortunate so far in that none of its fires or actions have taken a life. But that's only happenstance: Ask a fireman what he thinks of targeted arson. Or a logger about the deadly spikes placed in trees. Or maybe ask Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, who wrote to a TV reporter in Denver wishing to "congratulate" those responsible for the huge Vail fire and who has admitted to picking two of his victims from a hit list from Earth First!, father to ELF. Then think of the reaction had that been, say, an abortion clinic or an African-American church. Indeed, maybe if we made arson a hate crime, we might begin to see ELF and ALF for what they are ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:09:14 EST From: ZZScotty@aol.com Subject: Re: Klan Web Site for 13 year-olds? NJC Lama said: "My sister-in-law is a librarian at a public middle school housing 13 year-old children in a rural atmosphere. She told me that they are studying the Ku Klux Klan so she, *the librarian* 'opened up the web browsers so the kids could read the Klan's web sites firsthand'. I was completely shocked. I said that kids should *never* have access to Klan sites in a public school. She countered with, "Well, that would be censorship. They should have free access to do research." Jim, you're 95% right, and your sis-in-law 95% wrong, IMO. To expose a group of 13 year-olds with that kind of propaganda is potentially damaging. The only exception I'd make (accounting for my equivocation) would be to present the Klan site "in context" - balancing their rhetoric with other points of view and as much objective history as one could find. Of course, then, you'd need to find a teacher with some common sense - perhaps a difficult task in today's world of public education. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:33:33 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: cats & dogs NJC I'm behind in reading, so maybe someone has already mentioned this, but this song sounds mighty like this one (which is, as far as I know a "traditional" folksong - in any case, I don't know who the original writer was and I don't remember all the words, but it's a good song if you "howl" when you sing it: Had a dog and his name was Blue (3x) Betcha five dollars he's a good dog, too Here, Blue, you good dog you. Old Blue died and he died so hard Shook the [something] in my back yard Lowered him down with a ball and chain Every link I'd call his name Come on, Blue, you good dog you. - --- JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > Then there's this one from Neil Young on his _Havest > Moon_ disc. > > -Julius > > OLD KING > > King went a-runnin' after deer > Wasn't scared of jumpin' off the truck in high gear > King went a-sniffin' and he would go > Was the best old hound dog I ever did know. > > I had a dog and his name was King > I told the dog about everything > There in my truck the dog and I > Then one day the King up and died. > > Then I thought about the times we had > Once when I kicked him when he was bad > Old King sure meant a lot to me > But that hound dog is history. > > That old King was a friend of mine > Never knew a dog that was half as fine > I may find one, you never do know > 'Cause I still got a long way to go... Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:58:33 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: KKK,. white hate groups NJC I just love these discussions on an otherwise frigidly cold Sunday morning! The white power hate groups are everywhere, especially in small town and rural America, but in the big cities too. The last "white power rally" poster I tore down was in Kalamazoo, and that was in around 1992 or 1993, and it was posted on a streetpole in our integrated neighborhood. White supremist groups are out there, active. A standard enticement is to invite kids to a free rock concert where all the rock bands are white power groups (they have their own album labels, publishing companies, subculture, etc) and there are speeches in between the sets seeking kids to sign up. Edward Norton Jr. was not making that stuff in his movie "American History X." The movie chilled me because of its realistic portrayal of what is going on out there, even now as we post on this subject. It is a great movie. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. Was it two years ago that the young man drove through Indiana and Illinois and killed random Jews, people of Asian descent, and African Americans - including by chance the former head coach of the Nothwestern basketball team - thinking that was the mission of his white supremist church, whose headquarters are in Illinois? My guess as to why Timothy McVeigh of the Michigan Militia wants to have a public execution - ever think why he does? - is that it is his outreach to attain cult status and inspire the many people out there to follow in his footsteps, people in our midst who subscribe to these types of things. And there are many, many out there. Klan Watch would tell us that KKK activity per se is down right now. For those who think that this means the problem has gone away, they are very naive. Others have continued in those paths with greater sophistication. Neo-nazi groups, militias such as McVeigh belonged to, white power hate groups and Christian hate churches are out there, full and not empty. Hell, right now I could drive you to the headquarters of the southern Michigan branch of the Michigan Militia, McVeigh's group. I'd say, show the kids the KKK websites. Let them read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (the antiSemitic forged "proof" of the Jewish conspiracy) and let them read Mein Kampf. But give the kids context. I read all the hate literature, including Protocols and Mein Kampf, as a kid, I grew up in all white NW side Chicago in the 60s, how could I have missed it? I grew up in the midwest, which had major Klan chapters well into that decade, and I grew up in Chicago with George Lincoln Rockwell, head of the Nat. Assoc. for the Adv. of White People, or whatever he called it. Was it so long ago, maybe in our hallowed 1960s, that George Wallace ran for president and carried several states within a few years after his 'Segregation yesterday, segregation today, segregation forever" speech? But I also had enough perspective to know shit when I saw it. Evil shit. I do not believe in censorship. But I do believe in values, in a Scriptural morality that is the antithesis of this hate, Klan and otherwise. As the gay bumper sticker says, Hate is not a family value. What we have to do is teach our chidren our values, our rationales, our understandings and perspectives, and let them make their own decisions. Censorship only makes things exciting and forbidden. Lay the stuff out, say this is what it is, and this is why I am against what this is. That means we *talk* to the kids rather than always do our own things. You can't show a kid a movie about Holocaust and think you've done the job; he might be hearing elsewhere that the problem with Holocaust is that the Nazis didn't get them all. So watch together and talk together. Take the time to raise the kids with conversation, listening, and knowing what is out there. That means we have to stop being naive about what is out there, too. Censorship is not the answer, ongoing conversation is. Those conversations must go on over the course of years and be backed up by our lives. Kids will be recruited for a lot of things. What they accept, and what they pass by, that we have a chance to influence. Don't hide stuff from the kids, let them know what reality really is, and teach, and pray, and trust, and hope. All of this, of course, is my own opinion. I am glad that this forum can talk about stuff like this as there are few places out there where we can do so, exchange ideas and thoughts. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:20:57 -0600 From: "Emma Caywood" Subject: Re: KKK,. white hate groups NJC Kakki said: >I guess what I don't get is this "reading through the code" - it can be >proven beyond any doubt quite quickly what these groups are about, so why >would one have to read through their code to understand it any clearer? >All >I had to see at 13 was one photograph of a lynching and that about summed >it >up for me. The white hooded thing is also scary enough on it's own, too. >Maybe teaching methods were more simpler in my time. Sure, showing a picture might work for one group. But not all white supremisist and other evil groups label their stuff neatly: "These are the people who lynch people, remember that one photograph you saw when you were 13?" All kinds of groups have all kinds of literature. The kids need to be able to see through the crap along side the picture, so they'll associate that kind of retoric with evil next time they encounter it. Vince said: >Was it two years ago that the young man drove through Indiana and >Illinois and killed random Jews, people of Asian descent, and African >Americans - including by chance the former head coach of the Nothwestern >basketball team - thinking that was the mission of his white supremist >church, whose headquarters are in Illinois? That's the kid i was talking about. I think it might have been 3 years ago, actually. He went to my Junior High. He went to my High School. He was exposed to many Asian and Jewish kids (though admittedly very few African Americans.) He was my brother's year. He got all the same schooling I got. But something went wrong. >Censorship only makes things exciting and forbidden. Lay the stuff out, >say this is what it is, and this is why I am against what this is. Yeah, by censoring things off the internet, they only make them more applealing. Like sneaking out to see a boy you don't really like all that much, but are attracted to because your parents said you can't see him. >Censorship is not the answer, ongoing conversation is. Those >conversations must go on over the course of years and be backed up by >our lives. /me pats the list on the back for this. ;-) Emma. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:27:39 -0500 From: Yael Harlap Subject: jonatha NJC Jack said: >ok, >I'm going to see Jonatha tomorrow in Chicago to see what the fuss is all >about.Maybe there will be some listers there......... What did you think? What did you think??? I just saw her in Ann Arbor and it was so awesome and amazing!! Her voice is so beautiful and though I love her music on CD the CDs are quite produced so the subtleties of her voice get lost. It was so perfect and lovely!!! And I was sitting right up at the very front and afterwards when I went up to have my CD signed she told me I had a great smile. :) I told her I wanted to be just like her when I grow up (I'm 26) and she looked at me bemusedly and signed my CD "No, I wanna be like *you*" And then I took a picture with her. She is such a sweet person. And her voice *swoon*. Did you like it Jack? - -Yael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:35:48 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Branford Marsalis(NJC) From: Michael Paz wrote: >>I don't know if you know it or not, but Branford was one of the lucky >>ones to get some of the brown acid at Woodstock. I thought the brown acid was funky. Didn't Wavy Gravy warn folks about the brown acid? Also, Branford was 9 years old in 1969. Wait a minute ... now I see ... it's a joke! - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:29:05 -0800 (PST) From: Tyler Hewitt Subject: 1 question RE: if I had just one question to ask Joni, what would it be... I think mine would be "why the hell don't you stop smoking-It would save your life and your voice?" Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:35:49 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: This JUST in Jonatha report (NJC) Jack just called me from the Borders in Chicago and let me listen in on Jonatha's instore performance there. He is digging her and says there are alot of people there. I wonder if there are any other listers there. Anyways I guess we have converted another Jonatha person. I can't wait to get her Borders exclusive cd with the other 3 cuts on it. Jack cracked me up just now saying that Jonatha was talking about her DVD version coming out soon and how cool it is with the surround sound thing cause you can get it from behind too! (apologies to WallyK who probably finds that VERY offensive) Ever salaciously yours, Michael NP-The Space Between-DMB (MY ABSOLUTE FAVE ON THE NEW RECORD!!) Steady Pull on deck! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:45:51 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: FW: Sunset Pig Forwarded from Steve Polifka. - ---------- From: "Steve Polifka" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:52:27 -0600 To: "Michael Paz" Subject: Sunset Pig Hey Michael! Could you pass this on to the JMDL? I'm having a hard time replying and Les is working on it, thanks. A sunset pig in 'California' is an old antique wooden pig she had in her Laurel Canyon house. It's in the Jim Marshall pic of her at the piano with the DULCIMER...LOL! It can be seen in the 1976 biography 'Joni Mitchell, Her Life, Her Loves, Her Music... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:50:45 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: ???? (NJC) Touche! But I MEANT to do that! LoL! Michael NP-Walking-Jonatha Brooke on 2/17/01 8:38 PM, MGVal@aol.com at MGVal@aol.com wrote: >>> Maps he says. Oh we had one of those. Smart ass Michael. We could barley see >>> hunny. We went around in circles for I don't know how many times. > > > Well, Rose, just so that you know you are not alone. I recall having Mr. > Paz-a-licious in the lead to go to Atty May's. I followed behind him and I > seem to recall that he took the...ahem....scenic route that included a U-turn > right in the middle of a 3 way intersection and two parking lot exits. > > MG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:56:46 -0500 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: NJC-Jonatha Paz says: Far out Jack. Give her a big wet sloppy kiss for me. Nikki saw > her in Philly a couple days ago and said she was great Yes I have been meaning to post about this! I went to see Jonatha in the Philly area and was really amazed by the turnout! It was so packed I couldn't find a parking spot for over 30 mins! So by the time I got in there she was almost done:-( But I did hear her talk a little about how she was coming back here and her new album and stuff and got to hear 1 song. She was really great, I like her voice and playing a lot. Afterwards I went up to have 2 CD's signed and she is so cute...she signed mine "see you next time I'll start late" LOL! How appropriate for me(quiet) lol. o see her if you can! I picked up a Story CD too and love the lyrics. Love Nikki "Dream on but don't imagine they'll all come true...Vienna waits for you" ~ Billy Joel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:51:14 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Branford Marsalis(NJC) "Victor Johnson" wrote: >>[Branford] mentioned that he thought Ken Burns was right to leave out the >>last thirty years in his documentary. Here's an alternate view: Is it just coincidence that Wynton Marsalis, senior creative consultant on the film, and his committee (Stanley Crouch, Albert Murray), don't recognize the validity of jazz of the last 30 years? Ken Burns admittedly knew nothing about jazz going into the project, in fact, Wynton had suggested the topic to him and was subsequently tapped to mentor the film, thereby imprinting his own highly skewed agenda on the "history" of jazz, rendering it more of a museum piece than a living art. It's no wonder that for nearly 20 years Wynton's own music has largely been a rehashing of jazz styles from long gone decades, relying on other's ideas instead of his own. Burns claimed that we don't have enough distance to judge music of the last 30 years ... bullshit! In 1950, didn't we already know that Ellington and Armstrong were geniuses? Did we need another 50 years to assess them? Of course not. Great documentaries are made about recent history *all the time.* The first 60 years of jazz fill 17 hours of film, while the entire last 40 years is relegated to the last two hours. Why? Because Wynton and his cronies largely dismiss this music, and Burns bought what they were selling. Here's but one flagrant omission: Bill Evans, who is regarded as one of the most influential pianists of the last 40 years by nearly everyone *except* Wynton et al, was given a brief one-sentence mention. That's a crime. Now, Branford is a somewhat different case ... he is much more talented and creative than his brother, not nearly as dogmatic and stilted in his agenda, much more open minded, and his own music is more forward-looking and much of it very beautiful. But he still buys into the party line to a certain extent, as evidenced by those remarks. By the way, here is Jarrett's letter to the NYTimes, with which I agree: ::Regarding Ken Burns's (or is it Wynton Marsalis's?) "Jazz": Now that ::we've been put through the socioeconomic racial forensics of a ::jazz-illiterate historian and a self-imposed jazz expert prone to ::sophomoric generalizations and ultraconservative politically correct ::(for now) utterances, not to mention a terribly heavy-handed ::narration (where every detail takes on the importance of major ::revelation) and weepy-eyed nostalgic reveries, can we have some films ::about jazz by people who actually know and understand the music ::itself and are willing to deal comprehensively with the last 40 years ::of this richest of American treasures? The snide comment from Branford that Jarrett should "shut the hell up!" unless he came up with 30 million dollars to make his own documentary is bullshit ... one isn't otherwise allowed to comment or criticize? What is Burns/Wynton ... the damn government? My country, right or wrong? Fuck that. Hey, for 30 million bucks, you'd think they could have given more than 10% of the duration of the film to 40% of its subject. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:04:39 -0500 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: ???? (NJC) Ashara teases: > Boston? Is there something I should know about in my neck of the > woods? ;-) Oh BEHAVE! Well it seems as if the general consensus is that we are coming anyways...lol! I am ready NOW! LOL! Love Nikki "Dream on but don't imagine they'll all come true...Vienna waits for you" ~ Billy Joel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > AsharaJM@aol.com > Boston? Is there something I should know about in my neck of the > woods? ;-) > > Hugs, > Ashara {who is having SO much fun with this, that she may NEVER make an > official announcement!} ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:23:20 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: ???? (NJC) Nikki- That's brilliant! I should have come up with that. We can leave now and just STAY thru Labor Day! YAY! Hey Ashara, better pick up an extra tub or two of cream cheese. Love Paz NP-I'll Take It From Here-Jonatha on 2/18/01 2:04 PM, Nikki Johnson at stealth@voicenet.com wrote: > Ashara teases: >> Boston? Is there something I should know about in my neck of the >> woods? ;-) > > Oh BEHAVE! Well it seems as if the general consensus is that we are coming > anyways...lol! I am ready NOW! LOL! > Love Nikki > > "Dream on but don't imagine they'll all come true...Vienna waits for you" ~ > Billy Joel > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of >> AsharaJM@aol.com > >> Boston? Is there something I should know about in my neck of the >> woods? ;-) >> >> Hugs, >> Ashara {who is having SO much fun with this, that she may NEVER make an >> official announcement!} ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:25:10 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Klan site (NJC) (somewhat long diatribe) Hello Lonely Painter (What is your real name please?) I have to respectfully disagree with you here (and I have been trying NOT to getting sucked into this discussion), but I lean more to what Kakki was saying. I am NOT for censorship of this material to a 13 year old. That may be a little late as well. I recall vividly the name calling and allienation I felt from alot of white kids when I was that age. I was very hurt and confused by this treatment. I am not saying that all kids were like that, but the percentages lean to that side. Many of the kids that I hung with had a very nice way about them and never used words like nigger or spic and they were caring and beautiful people. Many times i was invited home with these kids only to find one or the other or both parents the exact opposite of their children. Bigots and hate mongers! How the hell did their shildren turn out different if it were not something they learned for themselves in school or church or where ever. In the south that kind of attitude is built into the fabric of some these families. At some point someone has to educate the children that is wrong to hurt other people. There are folks that live right within my safe little neighborhood here that fit that white supremacist profile. We are never gonna be able to control the brainwashing that goes on within some of these families, but if we allow this to be taught in our schools, at least we have more of chance for a chidl to make the right and intelligent choice and what is right and wrong. Michael NP-New Dress-Jonatha Brooke on 2/18/01 1:01 AM, Lonely Painter at kol_the_trini@hotmail.com wrote: > I'm with you on this one, Jim. I think even giving the Klan the time of day > is a mistake. > > Yes, kids need to know there are groups like the Klan out there. > Unfortunately, (in my opinionated opinion), there is a huge lack of morals, > conscience, whatever you want to call it, in this society we think is so > civilized. These children are so far removed from all the racial 'tensions' > of the past that they have no real context. Show them as many videos and > documentaries of past events as you want. Many 13-year-olds are nowhere near > the level of maturity needed to make wise distinctions. And I don't care how > many of you out there think your own little 13-years olds can. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:53:18 -0500 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: KKK,. white hate groups NJC The Rev. Vince writes: > Klan Watch would tell us that KKK activity per se is down right now. I just had to comment on this...maybe not Klan membership in itself, but white supremacist activity as a whole has actually been increasing. I do not have exact numbers but for many reasons, a primary one being the threat to white power, the membership numbers have been very high. Emma mentioned all the propaganda at her school and young kids are a target. I think many other people said it better and more eloquently but I have to agree that without teacher guidance exposure to such websites could be very dangerous. In my class on Racial Stratification my professor actually had info on these groups and the numbers sure were increasing. Love Nikki "Dream on but don't imagine they'll all come true...Vienna waits for you" ~ Billy Joel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Vince > Lavieri > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 12:59 PM > To: Jim L'Hommedieu > Cc: _JMDL > Subject: KKK,. white hate groups NJC > > > I just love these discussions on an otherwise frigidly cold Sunday > morning! > > The white power hate groups are everywhere, especially in small town and > rural America, but in the big cities too. The last "white power rally" > poster I tore down was in Kalamazoo, and that was in around 1992 or > 1993, and it was posted on a streetpole in our integrated neighborhood. > > White supremist groups are out there, active. A standard enticement is > to invite kids to a free rock concert where all the rock bands are white > power groups (they have their own album labels, publishing companies, > subculture, etc) and there are speeches in between the sets seeking kids > to sign up. > > Edward Norton Jr. was not making that stuff in his movie "American > History X." The movie chilled me because of its realistic portrayal of > what is going on out there, even now as we post on this subject. It is > a great movie. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. > > Was it two years ago that the young man drove through Indiana and > Illinois and killed random Jews, people of Asian descent, and African > Americans - including by chance the former head coach of the Nothwestern > basketball team - thinking that was the mission of his white supremist > church, whose headquarters are in Illinois? > > My guess as to why Timothy McVeigh of the Michigan Militia wants to have > a public execution - ever think why he does? - is that it is his > outreach to attain cult status and inspire the many people out there to > follow in his footsteps, people in our midst who subscribe to these > types of things. And there are many, many out there. > > Klan Watch would tell us that KKK activity per se is down right now. > For those who think that this means the problem has gone away, they are > very naive. Others have continued in those paths with greater > sophistication. Neo-nazi groups, militias such as McVeigh belonged to, > white power hate groups and Christian hate churches are out there, full > and not empty. Hell, right now I could drive you to the headquarters of > the southern Michigan branch of the Michigan Militia, McVeigh's group. > > I'd say, show the kids the KKK websites. Let them read the Protocols of > the Elders of Zion (the antiSemitic forged "proof" of the Jewish > conspiracy) and let them read Mein Kampf. > > But give the kids context. I read all the hate literature, including > Protocols and Mein Kampf, as a kid, I grew up in all white NW side > Chicago in the 60s, how could I have missed it? I grew up in the > midwest, which had major Klan chapters well into that decade, and I grew > up in Chicago with George Lincoln Rockwell, head of the Nat. Assoc. for > the Adv. of White People, or whatever he called it. Was it so long ago, > maybe in our hallowed 1960s, that George Wallace ran for president and > carried several states within a few years after his 'Segregation > yesterday, segregation today, segregation forever" speech? But I also > had enough perspective to know shit when I saw it. Evil shit. > > I do not believe in censorship. But I do believe in values, in a > Scriptural morality that is the antithesis of this hate, Klan and > otherwise. As the gay bumper sticker says, Hate is not a family value. > > What we have to do is teach our chidren our values, our rationales, our > understandings and perspectives, and let them make their own decisions. > Censorship only makes things exciting and forbidden. Lay the stuff out, > say this is what it is, and this is why I am against what this is. > > That means we *talk* to the kids rather than always do our own things. > You can't show a kid a movie about Holocaust and think you've done the > job; he might be hearing elsewhere that the problem with Holocaust is > that the Nazis didn't get them all. So watch together and talk > together. Take the time to raise the kids with conversation, listening, > and knowing what is out there. That means we have to stop being naive > about what is out there, too. > > Censorship is not the answer, ongoing conversation is. Those > conversations must go on over the course of years and be backed up by > our lives. > > Kids will be recruited for a lot of things. What they accept, and what > they pass by, that we have a chance to influence. Don't hide stuff from > the kids, let them know what reality really is, and teach, and pray, and > trust, and hope. > > All of this, of course, is my own opinion. I am glad that this forum > can talk about stuff like this as there are few places out there where > we can do so, exchange ideas and thoughts. > > (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #83 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?