From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2001 #26 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, January 15 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 026 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Interesting Items on Ebay - Joni autographs ["Kakki" ] alternative fuels - NJC [CarltonCT@aol.com] Joni Mitchell Companion & HOSL ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: january 13!!!!!! NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: january 13!!!!!! NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] My free music [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: alternative fuels - NJC [catman ] trueNJC [catman ] RE: Joni's Life, Loves, Music ["Deb Messling" ] Re: My free music (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Joni Mitchell Companion & HOSL [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: My free music NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Charity / Cherokee [Emily Kirk Gray ] Sam Shaber (NJC) ["Victor Johnson" ] MP3s and more [jonifan@clearsong.com] Re: Joni's Life, Loves, Music & gay support? [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Jim's on Joni's Jungle Line [catman ] "Waking The Dead" features ACOY [Don Rowe ] Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC [claud9ine ] Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, (in celebration of), NJC ["Jim L'Hommed] Re: political rantings (njc) ["Duane J. Corpis" ] turd stories NJC AND GROSS ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: january 13!!!!!! NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: turd stories NJC AND GROSS [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Joni Mitchell Companion ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, (in celebration of), NJC [SCJoniGuy] Re: Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, (in celebration of), NJC [catman ] Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC [claud9ine ] Re: Jungle Line, ~~ an essay, very long, 100% Joni Mitchell Content!! ["] thanks Chris ["Garret" ] Re: "Waking The Dead" features ACOY ["Victor Johnson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:13:35 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Interesting Items on Ebay - Joni autographs I'll add my personal buyers beware - I think that probably 99% of the so-called authentic Joni autographed items on eBay are fake, and not even good fakes. I truly cringe every time I see one come up and see people bidding sometimes very high prices for these items. Even if they say they have a COA - Certificate of Authenticity, these are mostly fakes, sad to say. A number of people on the list have the real deal, so if anyone out there is thinking of bidding on this type of item, they might want to run it by the list here first for a better "authentication." Once in a while in a big blue moon, there will come a real one. ;-) Kakki Paz wrote: >I went to the site and check it out and noticed that the >pick gurad is NOT screwed into the guitar. I wrote her >back and told her I smelled a rat. The master sleuth >herselff went back on the prowl and came up with one >signed by Whitney Houston. Looks like the same guitar >with interchangeable pick guards. I still can't figure out >what the whole scam is. My thoughts are he is copying >the signitures and imprinting them on pickguards and >selling cheap ass guitars for too much money. WHY >THE HELL would Whitney sign a strat anyways?? >Anyways buyers beware. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:25:22 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Jungle Line, ~~ an essay, very long, 100% Joni Mitchell Content!! Tanya, I bet there are others more expert at the searches than I am, but if you go to smoe.org and then lists and then Joni it brings up all the digest archives for the past few years. I think these were sometime last Spring. I'm sure a more proficient jmdler can give you better guidance. By the time HOSL came out I was into buying 8-tracks for my little car player and never had it on vinyl or CD until just a few years ago. The 8-track was well-worn and although it didn't hit me like previous Jonis, it always intrigued me artistically. I always got the theme of suburban disaffection and alienation. Plus I loved the whole swimming pool and lawn sprinklers imagery as a sort of icon for post 50s-60s suburban banality. However, it took the list here and also hearing the HOSL demos for me to truly appreciate it in greater depth. Kakki > >>Sounds like a great idea! How can I check out these archives? > > I've been listening to the album as a whole and loving it, but Jungle Line is > still a little rough. The music reminds me of something I once heard by > Bjork, but I can't remember what.] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:29:00 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Late night jmdlers club (NJC) > Is a "gentleman's club" a euphemism for a straight strip club or a gay club? > I wanna know where to spend my money. (Ha! Not! I'm a home body. No > discos for me either. I'd rather hang on the back porch with the other > house guests, drinking with all the porch lighs left .... OFF talking > quietly till late, late, late. :) They know who they are. As Julzie used > to say, "MMMMMwah!" Or was that Joan Rivers?) :) Yeah and I STILL have the evidential spots on my legs and ankles as a memento, Jim! And a very Happy and wonderful birthday to our Claud!! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 03:39:14 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: alternative fuels - NJC Jim writes about the Honda Insight which is definitely available for purchase and I have seen several of them zipping about the city of Smell Ay. They are very quiet two seaters, look kind of futuristic at the moment and are very reasonably priced. I am thinking of buying one and trading in my Accord. They are still a hybrid car which involves a gas powered engine, but they get up to 70 miles per hour on the freeway. They are very light and largely made of plastic, but do not appear to be any more of a safety hazard than standard automobiles. One of the energy programs that Gore wanted to support had he been elected was the use of a fuel called Bio-mass. This would be a nontoxic, methane based fuel made from, well, sewage of both the human and animal kind. Very cheap to manufacture with an endless supply of the source material, but very threatening to the American economic system rooted in the sale of petroleum products. Still, I wouldn't mind if the oil monopoly wanted to strike a deal with America's sewage plants and take something most of us flush away gladly and sell us back our own shit if it meant cleaning up the air and eliminating the 50,000 deaths due to lung cancer not caused by cigarette smoking. Another clever individual has had a hard time selling his invention, which is a very simple converter that allows any car to burn vegetable oil instead of gasoline. His favorite source for oil is the garbage bins of McDonald's and Burger King where he grabs the old oil for cooking the potatoes. Apparently, his car drives off leaving the pleasant smell of french fries (chips for Colin and the Brits). Somehow or other he's had a hard time marketing this invention which leads me to think that he is being conspired against. - - Clark np: Bjork - Debut ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:32:14 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Joni Mitchell Companion & HOSL In the latest issue of Relix mag there is a review of book called the Joni Mitchell Companion. It sounds interesting with lots of her interviews through the years in it. Has anyone seen this book? Does anyone on the list read Relix? Here is why I have it---someone just emailed me to tell me they did a really nice review of my CD! Sorry if I am shamefully plugging, its just SO exciting to get recognition for this. So rewarding. And quite funny cuz Relix is kinda Dead Heady (I was never into the Greatful Dead) but they have other music in there too obviously. There is also a photo of Jeff Pevar & a really nice shot of David Crosby. But I digress... Jim the Lama! You have convinced me to get a copy of HOSL!!!!!! What a great essay!!! I must confess, I have not listened to that album since long long ago when it first came out. So I will have to make this my next Joni purchase. Thanks for the divine inspiration! (And guess what picture I have hanging above my computer desk? Rousseau's The Sleeping Gypsy. I have always loved that painting, for me it is a kind of visual representation of the creative songwriting process... ******************************************** Kate Bennett sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com hear the music at: www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/ www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:15:09 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: january 13!!!!!! NJC Re: january 13!!!!!! NJCoh yeah!!!!!! can i be the wok???? wallyK -----Mensaje original----- De: claud9ine [mailto:claud9ine@home.com] Enviado el: Domingo, 14 de Enero de 2001 10:36 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org; wallykai@fibertel.com.ar; FMYFL@aol.com; john.van.tiel@wxs.nl; jmichaelpaz@telocity.com Asunto: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC How about...next time we'll skip the sandwich and go for an international stir-fry!!!!!! :-) Thanks for the birthday wishes! hugs, Claud9 From: FMYFL@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:30:43 EST To: john.van.tiel@wxs.nl, joni@smoe.org Cc: wallykai@fibertel.com.ar, claud9ine@home.com Subject: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC In a message dated 1/14/01 5:38:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, john.van.tiel@wxs.nl writes: It must have been the tofu, Wally. What say you, deep-South James? Claud? John, I say there's nothing like a good ole SanSoucie sandwich :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:25:09 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: january 13!!!!!! NJC Re: january 13!!!!!! NJCoh yeah!!!!! can i be the wok???? wallyK -----Mensaje original----- De: claud9ine [mailto:claud9ine@home.com] Enviado el: Domingo, 14 de Enero de 2001 10:36 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org; wallykai@fibertel.com.ar; FMYFL@aol.com; john.van.tiel@wxs.nl; jmichaelpaz@telocity.com Asunto: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC How about...next time we'll skip the sandwich and go for an international stir-fry!!!!!! :-) Thanks for the birthday wishes! hugs, Claud9 From: FMYFL@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:30:43 EST To: john.van.tiel@wxs.nl, joni@smoe.org Cc: wallykai@fibertel.com.ar, claud9ine@home.com Subject: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC In a message dated 1/14/01 5:38:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, john.van.tiel@wxs.nl writes: It must have been the tofu, Wally. What say you, deep-South James? Claud? John, I say there's nothing like a good ole SanSoucie sandwich :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 04:39:52 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: My free music www.cdbaby.com/clarkcarlton Hey Joni-junkies - Off of the politics and religion to do a little flagrant self-promotion here. With advice from our own lovely and talented Kate Bennet, my own CD is now for sale (only 12 dollars) through CD-Baby. They threw together a website for me, so you can at least see what my naked back looks like as well as my Martin guitar with the ocean superimposed on it. And if you don't want to buy my CD, you can hear a few clips for free. I think the people on this list would most like to hear "Most of All", and my gay bros and/or fellow Brian Wilson freaks will like my homage to the Beach Boys called "Boys on the Sand." They also invite people who know the album to submit a review of it. This is your chance to help promote me or take revenge on me for all my virulent opinions. Patrick is right, I am a deeply feeling person, and I think my music reflects that too. Resident conservative contrarian Marcel Deste has also seen past my hopeless liberal affliction and recognized me as someone of abilities. So check me out. The album, SALT WATER, is dedicated to Roberta Joan Anderson who I owe a great debt to, like any other singer/songwriter who has followed in her gorgeous, mesmerizing wake. I wasn't real happy with the quality of the sound as it came out of my iMac and through my headphones, but maybe you will get something of greater fidelity. www.cdbaby.com/clarkcarlton universal love, ecstasy, intensity, Clark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:09:16 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: alternative fuels - NJC Here we now have LPG(liquid petroloeum gas). It is very cheap, at about 75 cents a litre. Trouble is it costs about $2500 to convert ythe car to run on it. It is also not yet widely available. It is supposedly cleaner. Electric cars also run here and have done for a while. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:15:33 +0000 From: catman Subject: trueNJC Heard on a phone in about embarrassing things: A woman has gone to a big posh wedding, held at a private mansion. She needed to go to the loo. She went and her dump floated. She couldn't get rid of it(this kills me even as i write it!) soooo..... she picked it out of the loo and flung it out of the window. Unbeknowns to her, the party was being held in a large glass conservatory, a couple of floors below where she threw the turd out. When she went down to join the party, the guests all stared at her and then at the glass roofwhere this turd had splattered!!!!! Everytime I think of this I just crease up. How embarassing! (yes I am sitting at my pc laughing so much I can't see properly). Reminds me of the time I was paying for a newspaper and the seller held her palm out flat. i pulled the coins out of my pocket and placed them in her hand-along with several pubic hairs. I have no idea how they got in my pocket! - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:39:34 -0500 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Joni's Life, Loves, Music Your treasure is a quickie bio that is full of shallow analysis and REALLY GREAT PHOTOS. You may find that most of the photos have showed up on Catgirl's list and other forums, but it's nice to have them all bound up. The book ends at HOSL, and the author pans it! > I am really excited as I just made and won my > first ever bid on ebay and it is for an oop book > published in '76 called "Joni Mitchell: Her Life, > Her Loves, Her Music". I think it's been > mentioned onlist before but I don't recall the > reviews... So I'd appreciate any input/info on my > new treasure anyone can give me... :o) > - ----------------------------------- Deb Messling "I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat." ~Joni Mitchell - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:22:08 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: My free music (md) <<< and my gay bros and/or fellow Brian Wilson freaks will like my homage to the Beach Boys called "Boys on the Sand." >>> Sorry Carlton but this song isnt just for your gay brothers this ones for any and everyone. Its a classic. Marcel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:22:33 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Companion & HOSL <> It's a great book, Kate. Stacey Luftig, the editor, was (is?) on the list while she was working on the project. It's basically a collection of articles/reviews & interviews, starting from the beginning of Joni's career to the present. It's very well-conceived and executed, and Les & the list get a "thank-you" in the beginning! Two thumbs up from me...check it out. Bob NP: The Afghan Whigs, "Brother Woodrow/Closing Prayer" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:40:16 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: My free music NJC <> I'll get over there and do it, Clark! Clark sent me a complimentary copy of his CD "Salt Water" which I have been enjoying for some time now. Last week I had it in my car changer so I could really crank it up and enjoy it. His voice is extrememly warm, clear, and rich, and his guitar playing is great! His songwriting skills are also excellent, just when you think you know where he's going, he turns in a different direction and throws in an unexpected chord. This is probably part of the Joni influence! He also has a knack for writing a melody that sticks in your head for a long time. This is a skill that LOTS of songwriters would love to have but few do. Lyrically, he does a good job of helping you to visualize what he's singing about. I don't have the song titles in front of me, but I loved some of the phrases in the song about a lover working the knots out of his back. Sometimes the lyrics veer into cliche (bet your bottom dollar) but not often, and everything he sings is extemely heartfelt. Just read his posts; you can tell Clark is a man of conviction, as well as convincing. (Anyone who remembers his "Strange Boy" post will back me up; still can't believe I was reeled in like that! ;~D) Anyway, Clark, congratulations on putting your CD into the marketplace. I wish you all well-deserved success with it. Your tribute to Matthew Shepard alone is worth the purchase price. Bob NP: Luther Allison, "What Have I Done Wrong?" PS: Happy Birthday to Dr. King! Let us use this day in remembrance of him to build bridges of peace to one another, in spite of our differences let us focus on what we share... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:17:28 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: Re: Charity / Cherokee hi michael! i don't know if we've ever written directly to one another before! how fun! anyway, you wrote: >> Another couple of single words that did it for mer were: "magnet and iron" "concealed"<< ok, i recognize "magnet and iron" immediately from "lesson in survival" (one of my favorites) -- but "concealed" is on the tip of my brain, and yet...no dice (nice mixed metaphors, emily!). what song is that? and also, if i may, why do these specific words/phrases strike you? what do you hear her voice doing in them? i'm so interested. - --emily ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:47:15 -0500 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Sam Shaber (NJC) I noticed that Sam Shaber was a winner in the 2000 John Lennon Songwriting Contest. The results were released today. Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:39:54 -0600 From: jonifan@clearsong.com Subject: MP3s and more > Post more Joni mp3's to your site as well. i also enjoyed >the Neil Cover. I encourage you other music sluts and computer nerds to >hightail it over to this site and check them out. Thanks for the plug. I have a new CD in the works planned for late summer that will have Jericho and Don't Let It Bring You Down plus a lot of other covers ranging from "One More For the Road" to "White Rabbit" to "Grapefruit Moon (Tom Waits) and a few new songs of my own. But I need to sell a lot more of my first CD before I can get to the next one. Thanks to one and all for you comments and support! _____________________________________________ Richard Isen Clearsong Records . . .because a song is like a good companion. please visit http://www.clearsong.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:33:32 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni's Life, Loves, Music & gay support? "P. Henry" wrote: > hi gang, > > I am really excited as I just made and won my > first ever bid on ebay and it is for an oop book > published in '76 called "Joni Mitchell: Her Life, > Her Loves, Her Music". I think it's been > mentioned onlist before but I don't recall the > reviews... So I'd appreciate any input/info on my > new treasure anyone can give me... :o) > > Also, (and forgive me if this has already been > spoken of as I'm way behind on my digests as > usual) I was surprised to find the following item > listed as I was unaware of it's existence. Let me > say first that I am not gay and, personally, have > always found the rants on personal gay > relationships onlist as inappropriate because 1) > as I said, it is personal and I never saw the > same thing from the non-gay listers about their > relationships, (which, btw, I would find just as > boring unless it was somehow relevant to > something Joni) There have been many posts to this list where straight members have discussed their romantic relationships. Very many. It would be nice to hear from you then about their rants and how boring it all is to you. > 2) I've never known of any > particular interest Joni had in gay society or > any specific relevance of it to her music in > general other than the fact that the beauty of > her art seems to attract gays and str8s alike, > and Joni has been maintained a high profile with regards to gay rights in the L.A. area, recently attending a Lambda Awards dinner in support of Lambda's work to support positive gay images in the media. Several have been mentioned in Joni History Today posts. > 3) being str8 myself, it just didn't interest > me... Maybe this is the real reason for your opinion. Last Gay Pride I posted several messages describing Joni's inclusion in the cd Pride disc, even offering copies to those interested. I think that she was again showing support for the gay community which has been so supportive of her over the years. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:36:43 +0700 From: "william" Subject: Jim's on Joni's Jungle Line Jim's very long essay on the Jungle Line is possibly the best analysis of any of Joni's work I've read here on the Line. (No offence to anyone else). Streaming with a ritual of sound advice. Now Jim, can I say I've never found Dancing Clown quite as accessible as the other material on CMIARS and could you enlighten us on that one? Just joking. Number One, Lead Balloon, Dancing Clown, Flat Tyres and all those of that style ....... well, they leave me cold if not cringing. The band plugs in again. Whereas, Free Man, This Flight, In France, Good Friends. Up-beat authentic Joni seems to say more with less. Compete with the fans for the rock and roll man. Hands up all those for The Jungle Line. Hands up all those for Dancing Clown. Twins of spirit no matter which route home we take. Willy the Shake ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:04:33 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Jim's on Joni's Jungle Line > Hands up all > those for The Jungle Line. well include me. As I have said before, I got into Joni by hearing The Jungle Line on the radio back in 75. I liked it immediately and went out and bought THOSL. The rest is history. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:57:46 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: "Waking The Dead" features ACOY Don't know it this was discussed earlier. I'm on full list and tend to delete whole threads untouched -- BUT - -- we rented a little indie release this weekend, "Waking The Dead." Well right off the bat, what to my wondering ears should appear but the original release of ACOY. Anyone else catch this one? I thought it interesting, as well, that Jody Foster was the Exec. Producer on it ... Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:41:26 -0500 From: claud9ine Subject: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC Yep, you would be a perfect wok ... well seasoned! ;-)))) And... who's going to stir?????? ;-)))) or better..when and where ... hint hint hint ;-))) claud9 (missing you all) From: "Wally Kairuz" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:25:09 -0300 To: "claud9ine" , , , , Subject: RE: january 13!!!!!! NJC oh yeah!!!!! can i be the wok???? wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: claud9ine [mailto:claud9ine@home.com] Enviado el: Domingo, 14 de Enero de 2001 10:36 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org; wallykai@fibertel.com.ar; FMYFL@aol.com; john.van.tiel@wxs.nl; jmichaelpaz@telocity.com Asunto: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC How about...next time we'll skip the sandwich and go for an international stir-fry!!!!!! :-) Thanks for the birthday wishes! hugs, Claud9 From: FMYFL@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:30:43 EST To: john.van.tiel@wxs.nl, joni@smoe.org Cc: wallykai@fibertel.com.ar, claud9ine@home.com Subject: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC In a message dated 1/14/01 5:38:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, john.van.tiel@wxs.nl writes: It must have been the tofu, Wally. What say you, deep-South James? Claud? John, I say there's nothing like a good ole SanSoucie sandwich :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:53:27 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, (in celebration of), NJC To say "Thank you" to Dr. King, here are some lyrics by Marshall Crenshaw. Imagine the bouncy Lovin' Spoonful doing with these words to a Byrds-esque jangle and you won't be far off..... Someday Some Way (excerpt) - -------------------------- I can't stand to see you sad. I can't bear to bear to hear you cry. You can't tell me what you need, all I can do is wonder "Why?". Someday.... Some way Someday.... Some way Maybe I'll understand you. after all you've done for me all I really want to do is take the love you brought to me and give it ALL right back to you Someday.... Some way Someday.... Some way Maybe I'll understand you. Lama PS- This song is widely available for PREVIEW purposes as an mp3 file and it is lots of fun! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:05:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Duane J. Corpis" Subject: Re: political rantings (njc) Kakki wrote: > > The longer I live, the less I am likely to second-guess someone's > statements. I have to evaluate subsequent statements and actions before I'm > likely to make a final judgment. From what you've related, how do you know > just what he meant by "support?" Maybe he meant a type of "moral support" > and not actual government funding. Also, I would not necessarily call this > a violation of church and state unless that clinic is owned or run by a > church. At any rate, it is unclear what exactly Bush has in mind here. Well, don't forget that Bush's compassionate conservatism had as one of its planks the distribution of government funds to charities, including religious based ones, since charities supposedly do a better job of funneling "aid" to those in need. Jessie Helms has finally agreed to send money to the UN for the past-due debts that the U.S. owed the U.N. for a variety of forms of international aid distributed by the U.N., military and peaceful. His compromise: that a large portion of future U.S. aid be channeled not through government bureaucracies but through privatre charities. So, (1) the mission of the clinic I mentioned in my original post was to serve God -- I strongly suspect that it is a church-affiliated institution, and in any case, it's pretty clear that its philosophical basis is Christian (not just broadly religious or spiritual) and (2) the precedent exists among Republicans to propose that govnt funds be channeled through private (and often church-based) charities. It's already happening. I wrote: > > Also, remember that Plessy v. Ferguson, the court case sanctioning > > separate but equal school systems, had been around since 1896 and was only > > overturned by Brown v. Board of Education. Thank goodness that sometimes > > the courts act with bold, deliberative strokes! But if you are > > pro-choice, you should be aware that Reverend Vince's warning about the > > Supreme Court becoming more conservative is real. The Brown v. Board > > justices were also subject to popular resistance, violence, and threats. > > But it is precisely because the Supreme Court is ultimately above and > > beyond popular review and accountability that makes it such a powerful > > part of the government. YOU need to prove to ME that policy can't change > > overnight, because history shows that in fact it can. > Kakki wrote: > But you have only cited one case in over a 100 years. It is also a case > that is not on point as far as the law regarding abortion. Maybe some need > to prove to me, by showing me a collection of actual statements, where a > majority of Republicans currently in positions of power have vowed to > overturn Roe v. Wade. Then I would consider this "threat" something to > seriously think about. Since my partner is a legal historian, I'll ask him for the hundreds of other cases that have been radically overturned by an activist court (sometimes in ways that I agree with, sometimes in ways that I disagree with). This is hardly an oddity in American history. Plus, you ignored the reference I made to several recent Supreme Court pro-federalist decisions that did overturn some small but basic civil rights law that had been on the books for decades. So Plessy v. Ferguson is hardly the only case, nor is a marginal one. This is a real possibility. If I actually researched this, I'm sure I could find a list of Republicans who want to overturn Roe v. Wade. Plus, just turn to the highly politicized religious right groups (forget the everyday normal regular person who is pro-Life but who isn't out in the battle trenches fighting against established legislation). The political activism of the pro-Life political interest group is enormous, especially where I'm living now (between Georgia and South Carolina). > > > And indeed, the Republican party in general wants to change certain > policies, including > > the legality of abortion, so what makes you think that between Bush, > > Ashcroft, and a potential sea change in the Supreme Court that Roe v. Wade > > won't be overturned? > Kakki wrote: > I suppose I am "Pro-Choice" because I think it's a woman's personal > business. However, I wish the government did not have to be involved in > this issue at all. I hate that something that is so individual and personal > has been such a loud and sometimes exploited political issue for so long. I > hate that it has all kinds of other things attached to it like personal > choice in religion and so on. It seems like some people have to be ashamed > of their personal religion if that religion is anti-abortion or they are > attacked if their religious beliefs are "politically incorrect." It drags > peoples' personal religious beliefs into the political dialogue. Just as > many are militantly vigilant against separation of church and state, I think > that the flip side of the coin is almost a sort of persecution and > demonizing of certain religious groups. That is also a bit creepy to me and > I trust you can imagine why. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are saying here, but I hope that you aren't saying that I'm being a religious bigot. First, my profession is the study of religion (professor of religious history), which has been my profession for the last 15 years. I'm drawn to the power and influence that religion has to shape society -- both in positive and negative ways. I just returned from the MLK march and rally here in Atlanta, and I think I can honestly say I admire the religious perspectives of King and his current day followers, who express such enormous toleration for other creeds, beliefs, and ways of life. Religion can be a font of social justice. But religion can also be a font of social IN-justice. It can justify all kinds of anti-democratic positions, and the history of the U.S. has been marked by both progressive and regressive religious movements. To close your eyes to the full spectrum of religiosity in the U.S. is to be ignorant, and that is a dangerous proposition in politically explosive and uncertain times. I've never demonized a religious group. I have suggested that the separation of church and state is a real constitutional bulwark, and I see that line being shifted and eroded by the political activism of particular religious groups that have identified themselves as members of the "far right" or the "Christian Coalition." You see, you ignore the fact that there is an important difference between teh political activism of the pro-Choice movement and the pro-Life movement, especially its ultra-religious right elements. Pro-Choice doesn't force an abortion on anyone. Pro-Life forces a woman to do something with her body she may not want. So if you really are sincere about your rhetoric above, then you'll understand that (1) the religious right has willingly brought their personal religion into the political sphere, (2) they haven't been "outed" as part of a particular religious group; (3) religion is the cornerstone of their political beliefs. If that's the case, then the validity of their religious beliefs, the coherence of their dogma, the constitutionality of their attempts to impose their beliefs on others -- each of these become fair game in the political debate over abortion. That's not scary. That's democracy. - --Duane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:33:56 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: turd stories NJC AND GROSS oh colin!!!!!! i am shrieking!!!!!!!! i know two TRUE turd incidents that happened to friends of mine, and now this one... my friend dolores was at a party and she was completely stoned. she went to the BR, and again the thing just floated there because the WC was out of order. hours later when she'd left the party and we were having breakfast at a posh place she opened her purse to pay and there was the turd wrapped up in her hankie. the other story is exactly like your lady's, but this time my friend [he told me this, but now after your story, i think it must be some kind of urban legend] threw the stuff out the bathroom's window. minutes later, an enraged passer-by rang the bell. he had a turd on his shoulder. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de catman Enviado el: Lunes, 15 de Enero de 2001 08:16 a.m. Para: joni Asunto: trueNJC Heard on a phone in about embarrassing things: A woman has gone to a big posh wedding, held at a private mansion. She needed to go to the loo. She went and her dump floated. She couldn't get rid of it(this kills me even as i write it!) soooo..... she picked it out of the loo and flung it out of the window. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:42:18 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: january 13!!!!!! NJC Re: january 13!!!!!! NJCthe wok will shake and toss and flip ingredients up and over, of course, so not to worry. ;-) wallyK, SEXUALLY RANTING AND PANSEXUAL, ooooo scandal scandal scandal. the babylon whore herself on the jmdl!!!! -----Mensaje original----- De: claud9ine [mailto:claud9ine@home.com] Enviado el: Lunes, 15 de Enero de 2001 04:41 p.m. Para: Wally Kairuz CC: joni@smoe.org; FMYFL@aol.com; john.van.tiel@wxs.nl; jmichaelpaz@telocity.com Asunto: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC Yep, you would be a perfect wok ... well seasoned! ;-)))) And... who's going to stir?????? ;-)))) or better..when and where ... hint hint hint ;-))) claud9 (missing you all) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:00:12 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: turd stories NJC AND GROSS <> "Love takes so much courage, love takes so much shit..." Bob, hoping this thread ends with this post NP: Tori Amos, "The Waitress" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:35:05 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Joni Mitchell Companion That's cool that Stacy is a list member & used the JMDL as a resource. Congratulations Stacy! Deb asked which issue, it is the Relix currently in stores (got mine in Borders)which is December, vol 27 no. 6 ******************************************** Kate Bennett sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com hear the music at: www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/ www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:03:52 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, (in celebration of), NJC 1. Pride (In The Name of Love) - U2 2. Happy Birthday - Stevie Wonder 3. Abraham, Martin & John - Dion 4. Impossible Dreamer - Joni (partially anyway) Any others? Bob NP: Tori, "Cornflake Girl" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:17:02 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, (in celebration of), NJC Walk On (or whatever its called) from Carousel.(or was it Camelot?) Touched By The Sun -Carly Red Football-Sinead O'Conner Way Over Yonder-Carole King SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > 1. Pride (In The Name of Love) - U2 > 2. Happy Birthday - Stevie Wonder > 3. Abraham, Martin & John - Dion > 4. Impossible Dreamer - Joni (partially anyway) > > Any others? > > Bob > > NP: Tori, "Cornflake Girl" - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:53:18 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: political rantings (njc) Duane, Thanks for your well-written response. I do understand your concerns about separation of church and state. I would love to carry on the discussion but I am starting to receive subtle and not-so-subtle hints to cease my political discussions and I don't want to be abusing the forum here so I'll just make a few comments. The fact that you indicate that you live between Georgia and South Carolina puts a different slant on issues to probably both of us. I mostly see an entirely different perspective from where I live in California. From my vantage point geographically and politically I view the far religious right as a relatively small minority in the U.S., and because of that, do not view them as a true threat to the way the country is run overall. I also bristle when any and all Republicans are thrown into the same lot as them. Believe me, I've had personal experiences of bigotry against me by certain religious fundamentalists all through my life as a Catholic of Irish ethnic background, so I'm very much aware of of their sometimes scary and narrow-minded beliefs. On the other hand, we do have freedom of religion in the U.S., one of the primary basic rights, and so I defend their rights to their beliefs. Should their beliefs control the business of government? Of course not. Are they entitled to participate in political process? Why not? We let the Communist, Socialist and other small obscure parties have a spot on our ballots. I'm trying to keep this short but did want to clarify that in no way was I trying to imply that you are a religious bigot! My previous statements were only meant to be rhetorical discussion asking a general question of whether we sometimes rant so much against those religions who don't agree with a certain political agenda, that we risk "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", to make a bad pun. From my observation it seems that too often the arugment jumps quickly from a discussion of "individual far right religious fundamentalists" to "all Republicans are far right religious fundamentalists" to "all those who have a religious belief live in a fantasy world and are dangerous people" to "let's fight all people who have a religious belief." When that kind of rhetoric starts getting way out there and almost militant, I start getting a little scared myself. I start to have pictures in my head of all Christians losing any political representation or being rounded up for "re-education camps" or worse. That's what I meant when I said I trust you could understand why. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:11:37 -0500 From: claud9ine Subject: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC stop it ... you are making me already shake with laughter... now I thought I was being risqui (if that's how you spell it... ) and over the top...ola-la....I am not worried now ;-))))) claud 9 or 6 (depending on how you flip it ;-)) oh no.... help, I am sinking... am I in need of serious Freudian analysis or is that the fallout from my new ripe old age? ;^) From: "Wally Kairuz" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:42:18 -0300 To: "claud9ine" Cc: , , , Subject: RE: january 13!!!!!! NJC the wok will shake and toss and flip ingredients up and over, of course, so not to worry. ;-) wallyK, SEXUALLY RANTING AND PANSEXUAL, ooooo scandal scandal scandal. the babylon whore herself on the jmdl!!!! - -----Mensaje original----- De: claud9ine [mailto:claud9ine@home.com] Enviado el: Lunes, 15 de Enero de 2001 04:41 p.m. Para: Wally Kairuz CC: joni@smoe.org; FMYFL@aol.com; john.van.tiel@wxs.nl; jmichaelpaz@telocity.com Asunto: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC Yep, you would be a perfect wok ... well seasoned! ;-)))) And... who's going to stir?????? ;-)))) or better..when and where ... hint hint hint ;-))) claud9 (missing you all) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:30:08 -0000 From: "Garret" Subject: Re: Jungle Line, ~~ an essay, very long, 100% Joni Mitchell Content!! Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >I think of "In France They Kiss On >Main Street" as classic Joni. wow. and i consider this post classic JMDL! GARRET ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:59:46 -0000 From: "Garret" Subject: thanks Chris To start with, i'm not actually too sure if this is considered join content or not...dont want to annoy anyone....apologising profusely if i am! Chris Marshall from Cambridge, England yesterday returned home after *almost* a week spent in Dublin:-) Chris is the first and only JMDLer i have ever met. Last summer, as some of ye may recall, i invaded the united states for three months. at the time of my departure from Ireland i had been on the list for about three and a half months. at that same time i had been corresponding with Chris for about three and a half months. we had built up quite a rapport; on occasion e-mailing each other a few times in the space of a day. one of the highlights of my summer in New Engalnd was breakfast with Chris. i finally put a face to the name and mail. well, i returned to Ireland and life went on. Chris and i made plans for me to visit Cambridge or him to visit Dublin. i dont know if we thought we were joking:-) over new years i went to amsterdam, chris went to austria! by way of recovery he decided that a leisurely few days in Dublin's Fair City would be well spent. what a fantastic way to kick off the new century! i would like to express my gratitude to Chris for coming here. in my role as "tourguide" i got to see my own city from another side, i realised that this actually is a really cool city. i learned a lot and with Chris i went to places not too far my own home that i would never have thought of. Chris, i'm sorry if my history lessons got a little too obscure, or, indeed, my fascination with those stone mushrooms was over the top but youknow all about me and fungi, lol. the conversation ranged from religion and cars to which joni albums are top of the heap. Chris i think i've got to thank you for being a great conversationalist, not vice versa, i only ramble like that when the other person creates trust. when the other person can talk back (and can forgive me for interrupting constantly:-) it is almost a year now since i signed up to the list for the first time; i think it is good time not to express my gratitude to Les for bringing all this to life. Les it's all your fault.....i've made some good friends here, and at least one with whom i will be acquainted for my life. it's all you fault:-) thank you so much. i look forward to blaming Les for my meeting many other wonderful people in person in the near future.....now that i've met one JMDLer, i'm dying to meet some more! GARRET NP- Billy Joel, Uptown Girl, hehe...it's for you Chris! ps- thank you for those sweet words this evening Chris, and dont stop texting me! makes me feel popular:-D ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:21:31 -0500 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: "Waking The Dead" features ACOY Anyone else catch this one? I thought it > interesting, as well, that Jody Foster was the Exec. > Producer on it ... how ironic...I watched that this weekend as well and was going to mention the same thing. And I just realized also I forgot to return the movie on sunday... Victor Johnson http://www.cdbaby.com/victorjohnson "Just beyond the morning falls the river of your dreams, Escaping from the day these wild creatures run away." Victor Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:01:42 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, (in celebration of), NJC << Walk On (or whatever its called) from Carousel.(or was it Camelot?) >> You're referring to "You'll Never Walk Alone" from Carousel I'm certain... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:14:07 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Doctor Martin Luther King Junior, (in celebration of), NJC Yes-it is used as a football chant here! SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > << Walk On (or whatever its called) from Carousel.(or was it Camelot?) >> > > You're referring to "You'll Never Walk Alone" from Carousel I'm certain... > > Bob - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:10:58 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC In a message dated 1/15/01 4:01:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, wallykai@fibertel.com.ar writes: << wallyK, SEXUALLY RANTING AND PANSEXUAL, ooooo scandal scandal scandal. the babylon whore herself on the jmdl!!!! >> well holy jesus! i just was listening to this pj harvey song about the whores who hustle and the hustlers who whore. and then i had listened to this meshell cd all day today which is like looking at porn with the ears cause she's total sex....shhhh such beautiful hair...do you mind if i kiss you there...yowsa! so anyway, now i see you are the whore of babylon yourself...right there in argentenia. oh my god wally, i had another dream the other day. clark was in it. he mentioned his naked back today on his cd..but he didn't say anything about the way his bicepts look. ( they are fucking perfect...cough...you know..in a str8 kind of way ) anyway, it was like that movie...trading places..i had traded places with him for three months. gave him my whole deal. the mortgage, the algebra homework every night which you can't do cause you cheated your way through school till you found liberal arts, the mother in law, the menstration, the bitch / witch who runs the homeowner's association who wants the kayaks moved off the dock cause they're ...unsightly...like her droopy ass cheeks are pretty, and then there's the church which ...oh my god....keeps asking for money. i guarantee you.....that muscular back and bicepts of clarkman will turn to three beer a night flab and varicose veins in three months time and he'll be praying to jesus for relief just like dubya. but not me tonight. tonight, i'm going to the whore of babylon. or is it the bear of babylon? and colin, i do love you. ciao. p np. jonatha - always......hey yoo magsie. oh yea...brian...hey...no sweat. it's cool. just a neat song dude. cough...ahem...night all. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:41:22 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: january 13!!!!!! NJC > the algebra homework every night which you can't do cause you > cheated your way through school till you found liberal arts, I got straight a's at scool (which i left at 15) and very good in math. I remember being good at calculus and algebra yet I couldn't tell you today what calculus is and i certainly couln't do algebra even if i do remember that it is the one with the x = stuff and formulas you had to prove which I always thought was a waste since someone had laready done it! I have forgotten most of what I learned at school. I have learned far more since I left and find it amazing that I choose to read books on pyshics and philosphy and stuff now(when I get thru the 4th Harry Potter of course!) > and colin, i do love you. but, patrick, I don't have muscles like Clark..... You know, I am sure, I named my new puppy(who is now 5 mths nearly and we got him at 8 weeks) Clark. Now I wonder what the lister Clark is really like because this Clark is a little fucker! Hyper and full of it. Very cute but so tiresome. Even the adults think he is a pain. Especially as he humps them evry chance he gets(cept for Brad who growls at him) > > > ciao. p > np. jonatha - always......hey yoo magsie. oh yea...brian...hey...no sweat. > it's cool. just a neat song dude. cough...ahem...night all. - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2001 #26 **************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?