From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #622 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk VideoTree sign-up: http://www.jmdl.com/trading Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Thursday, November 23 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 622 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Sign up for VideoTree #2 now: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- the sags are coming!!!!!! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] happy thanksgiving njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] the food interview - njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: The Grinch - njc [Joseph Palis ] Re: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) ["Kakki" ] Re: Happy Thanksgiving NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Royal Turkeys NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Happy Thanksgiving NJC [Siresorrow@aol.com] RE: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: JMDL Thanksgiving Wish, USA content, NJC [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Songwriting [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Songwriting (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: The Grinch - njc [Joseph Palis ] THE James Madison weighs in on The Fla. Supreme Court [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Songwriting [catman ] Thanksgiving Tale [Leslie Mixon ] Re: THE James Madison weighs in on The Fla. Supreme Court NJC ["Mark or T] Thomas Jefferson on the Florida Supreme Court Decision (njc) [MDESTE1@aol] Cooking Music (NJC) [Leslie Mixon ] Re: Songwriting [susan+rick ] Re: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) ["Kakki" ] Happy Birthday! ["Diane Evans" ] not for want of tyring NJC [catman ] Re: Cooking Music (NJC) ["Diane Evans" ] Re: Cooking Music (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Songwriting (md) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 05:28:43 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: the sags are coming!!!!!! njc november 23 seems to be a jmdler sagittarius favorite! H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y EMILY KIRK GRAY ELAINE GROSS LINDSAY MOON have a great double celebration today!!!!!!! much love, the birthday fairy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 05:40:01 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: happy thanksgiving njc mes petits et mes petites, i wish you an inordinately happy thanksgiving day! indulge yourselves in gluttony. after all, how many turkeys gave their lives for you all! i'm thankful for so many things this year, but frankly i don't have time to write about it. not that you'd care. en fin, misbehave with propriety. and i'm so sorry i missed congratulating my beloved canadians on THEIR thanksgiving day back in october. please forgive me. we don't have a thanksgiving day in argentina mainly because nothing good has ever happened to us, so we're very cynical and melancholy. but the beef is good here. and maybe the tofu too, who knows. wallyK, joyful ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 05:50:27 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: the food interview - njc i forgot to tell you that i was finally interviewed on tv last thursday!!!! i used the information that you so generously shared with me about food in your areas. the program will be broadcast in december. the producers were particularly appalled at the concept of Cincinnati Chili [thanks, jim!] and loved my blue ribbon burgers and mushroom topping. but deep inside i knew they wanted me to prepare Cincinnati Chili. all in all, it was a very successful experience, and i might be offered my own cook show next year. julia childs, hold on to your dentures! here i come! wallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:41:09 +0800 (PHT) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: The Grinch - njc Hi Catherine: I watched this film at about the same time you did (add some hours earlier for global compatibility) here in Manila;-) I like Dr. Seuss' stories most especially THE LORAX which achingly captured the sadness of having a world without trees. So I watched HOW THE GRINCH STOLE CHRISTMAS knowing that Dr. Seuss' stories never disappoint. And I like the story. Especially what the Grinch said about Christmas presents (made me remember TOY STORY II when Jessie sang that poignant song brought to poignant life by Sarah McLachlan's vocals). You're right that Jim Carrey was perfect as the cave-dwelling curmudgeon, but I think that much of his success owes to the fact that he was in this green costume so that the audience can't be reminded of his famous face. There were many riotous moments in the film made even funnier because of the particular delivery of Dr. Seuss' clever lines as well as the physical comedy only Carrey can... well... carry. I like Ron Howard films (THE PAPER, EDtv) but at the back of my mind, I sincerely thought he was kind of miscast (mishelmed?) as a director for such a film. Maybe I came to expect films like this to be handled by Hollywood's resident quirk director Tim Burton that I thought it lacked the requisite darkness and menace especially in the production sets. Overall, I still like the film because of the timelessness of the message; the perfect casting of Christine Baranski, and aww shucks... that scene when the Grinch took the tablecloth from the table full of things and what he did right after that. I can't suppress the laughter that seems to find its way out of me everythime I remember it. Just an opinion... Joseph (didn't know Mariah Carey co-wrote the theme song in the film and opted to NOT sing and leave the vocal tasks to Faith Hill) On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Catherine McKay wrote: > Has anyone seen "The Grinch" movie yet? I saw it on > Saturday, with my son. I went in thinking it was > going to be one of those overblown special-effects > kind of movies and didn't think I'd enjoy it (but was > hoping that there would be something to redeem it.) > > Ten minutes into the film and I'm enjoying it > immensely, but still wondering when I'm going to be > let down and boredom or too-much-of-a-good-thing > syndrome will set in. It didn't happen. > > Let me tell you - I have never laughed so much, or so > consistently, throughout a film in ages. I absolutely > loved it and couldn't recommend it highly enough. > > Yes, there were a lot of special effects, and often > movies that use these are all form and no substance, > but it was so well-done, so true to the wacky spirit > of Dr Seuss (but with a message!) > > And I wasn't sure about Jim Carey in the title role, > but he was just perfect. Despite all the makeup and > hair all over him, every facial expression was > captured. You forgot it was Carey - he really becomes > the Grinch. > > Go see this film - take your kids, take your parents, > take your grouchy friends! It's delightful. If you > don't like it... you're a mean one! > > P.S. Not collecting any commission for shamelessly > plugging a film with which I have nothing to do. > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 01:02:27 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) Marcel wrote: >No one even asked the court to make this decision and >intervene. the Court was clearly operating in a partisan way >because of that. They have overruled the State legislature >and all the proceedures that were "the will of the people". I was confounded by the ruling and it seemed flawed to me on many levels. What I am just not getting is their language about "the right of the people to have their vote counted." Now I am truly not being facetious or trying to be argumentative here but haven't these votes *been* counted already *twice* before the hand count? What am I missing here? I can't imagine any court, especially a Supreme Court, setting a precedent for selective and multiple recounts in the absence of proof of fraud. Yet here it appears they are not even addressing the fact that there have already been a two full recounts completed. Is my understanding incorrect? If I am factually correct then I am even more astounded that people keep coming on TV and radio pounding on about "the right of the people to have their votes counted" and accusing Bush of blocking this right. This is just surreal to me. And why all the wrangling over the "dimpled" chads? If they believe some people were too feeble to punch through all the way or if the ballot holder somehow misfunctioned, there is a very quick and simple way to "divine" that fact - look at the rest of the ballot. If there are other holes punched out, that would be a pretty safe indication that the voter was not too feeble to punch it through. Many people actually do vote for everything but the President in some election years. I've done it twice myself. > << The deadline given will force Miami-Dade county to recount much faster than they planned.>>> > > Hail to the thieves. They can all show us how they hustle. Well, like they say in Kansas, wait another 15 minutes and the weather will change again ;-) So the latest is that Gore's group brought the Miami-Dade board before the court today to try to force them to resume the hand count. This was summarily denied by the court. Now the Gore lawyers are saying they will appeal it to the Supreme Court and saying that it is "mandatory" that they complete the hand count. It's NOT mandatory and it is very clear in the ruling of Tuesday that it is all within the canvassing board's "discretion", i.e. optional as to whether to proceed. This attempt to force them to proceed is just plain crazy and not founded on reality. > Let me count the ways. But first consider that on the one >hand the Democrats are saying that pregnant chads (read >no hole in the card) signify "the will of the people" but >because the post office in Yemen doesnt have a stamp or > smears the ink we cant somehow determine the "intent" of >a Bush voter. This is so tragic its criminal. The issue of not counting military ballots without postmarks is another one that had me saying "how do they get away with this?!" I received letters from friends in the millitary in Vietnam throughout most of that war and NONE of them were ever postmarked! I hate how partisan and divided our country has become over this craziness and know a number of Democrats who feel the same way and are ranting right alongside me at this point. This has been a complete insult to all Americans. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:19:32 -0000 From: "Rob Ettridge" Subject: VLJC - Camus Connections Joni's fellow Canadian kd lang also seems to be a Camus fan. The title of her brilliant new album, Invicible Summer, is lifted from a Camus quote. "In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer." Rob _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:08:43 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving NJC << it's just too weird for me. maybe i should be smoking a bong or something. i like something you can at least half understand. i'm going back to peter gabriel and paul cole. >> Patrick, It IS weird, I think in a wonderful way. It doesn't settle easy on the ears because it's so unlike what you're used to hearing; sorta like the first time I had Middle Eastern food - all those new tastes, I didn't think I liked it but I soon found myself craving them. For me this record works in much the same way. Give it a few more spins, and if you still don't like it, I'll be glad to take it off your hands and replace it with something else, seeing as how you bought it on my recommendation. Only fair. And thanks for the honest opinion. Bob NP: Erykah Badu, "My Life" (Am I the first one to pick up her new one? It just came out Tuesday, was one of the most anticipated discs of the year, and is well worth the wait! Erykah restores my faith in true soul music!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:10:31 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Royal Turkeys NJC << I always find it amusing that their beloved King James was a gay guy. >> Me too...it put it in the same category of watching thousands of people in a stadium standing up & singing "YMCA"! ;~) Bob NP: Erykah, "Cleva" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:55:04 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Thanksgiving NJC In a message dated 11/23/00 8:14:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << Give it a few more spins, and if you still don't like it, >> well i will definately do that. and, i should say i am out of my element visiting my in-law's for the holiday and listening to it through the little speakers of my lap top. and then of course, everything is different at the in laws. kind of surreal. so i did committ to give it a fair shot next week in my office with a real stereo. plus it seems like music that fits the solitary nature of my office better than the public place of my inlaws. now for an inlaw story about grey hair. about seven years ago when my son was four, we were going to christmas eve mass at the 5:30 time slot for families. my inlaws liked to drink burbon before christmas eve mass. so we had burbon and water and then went down stairs to go to church. my four year old son ran up to my mother in law and somehow ran under her long skirt. she was about 58 at the time. she pulled him out and announced to the whole group there,...now son, don't go peeking under grandma's skirt like that or you might see santa clause early this year..and let me tell you, this santa's beard ain't grey yet. so i found those words hopeful as i thought about aging. happy turkeys. patrick np. windham hill #2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:55:05 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) I'm jumping in here based on things I heard on the radio a week or so ago. Bear in mind, that my memory may be flawed by now, alcohol having been consumed since then :) Kakki wrote:- > What am I missing here? I can't imagine any > court, especially a Supreme Court, setting a precedent for selective and > multiple recounts in the absence of proof of fraud. Fraud, as I recall, isn't the only issue? See below. > And why all the wrangling over the "dimpled" chads? If they believe some > people were too feeble to punch through all the way or if the > ballot holder > somehow misfunctioned, there is a very quick and simple way to > "divine" that > fact - look at the rest of the ballot. If there are other holes punched > out, that would be a pretty safe indication that the voter was not too > feeble to punch it through. Is there (I'm asking here, not suggesting) an issue with the automated counting machines not being able to decipher a dimpled/partially punched/ totally punched hole? I seem to recall hearing a radio commentator comment (heh) that the hand count had revealed that the automated count was inaccurate. Could partially punched/dimpled hole count for that? Surely if you suspect the automated machinery to be, um, mechanically partisan, then a hand count is the only way to go *to be sure*. Assuming you trust the people doing the hand count. On that basis, stopping hand counts doesn't seem like a rational decision to make. Now, I'll write a disclaimer again :) This is based on things I've heard on TV/radio, some of it by osmosis as I wake up in the morning. I may have it wrong. I did search on the web to try and find some of this stuff out, but ended up getting Floridian election results, decrees, and so on from the last few years, but not *this* one. After a few bazillion pages of legalese, I gave up. - --Chris Chris Marshall Secure Systems Integration Ltd Web: http://www.secure-si.co.uk/ Tel: +44 (0) 7970 459 553 Fax: +44 (0) 1954 201 741 E-mail: chris@secure-si.co.uk Short Msg: mobile@secure-si.co.uk PGP key: http://www.secure-si.co.uk/chris/pubkey.txt Fingerprint: 86F2 8809 FAC2 37ED 491A FD7D 7CAF 3206 E706 D3B3 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:55:46 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Songwriting I have a question (and please don't flame me for asking): First, I cannot write a song/poem/lyric to save my life. So: Some of Joni's early songs were based on a certain pattern, of repeating the same theme. Both Sides Now: clouds, life, love (I looked at _______ from both sides now) Circle Game and Urge for Going follow a similar pattern. And these were all early in her career. The texts of her songs have become such works of extraordinary complexity and beauty that all patterns seem to be broken. Can anyone else today write a lyric like Joni? No... So when did you all first realize the growth/development of Joni's songwriting ability? And what struck you about her talent? For me it was the Blue album, and actually, "All I Want" because it picks up a theme and runs with it... and because it expressed a variety of emotions in such evocative words and yet said it not in some long tome but in the confines of a pop song. Just asking.... (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:19:57 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Thanksgiving Wish, USA content, NJC In a message dated 11/23/00 1:10:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, jlamadoo@home.com writes: << I especially want to thank Terry Matlen, who was the first person I ever saw play in open tunings...... >> Jim, Talk about making my day! Thank you for such kind words! Now if someone could teach me a way to open up the digest without having to first open up a darn word processor, I would be able to keep up with the list regularly! Happy T-Day all you USA-ers! Terry http://www.ADDconsults.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:26:57 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) In a message dated 11/23/00 6:56:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, chris@secure-si.co.uk writes: << I seem to recall hearing a radio commentator comment (heh) that the hand count had revealed that the automated count was inaccurate. Could partially punched/dimpled hole count for that? >> Such a flaw could absolutely account for that and that is precisely why in every polling place you have printed instructions on making sure that such hanging etc. chads are fully punched out when you hand your ballot in after you vote. Voter error(ie I forgot to vote or I missed the hole) is no reason for manual counts (and the law says so) anymore than a polling place person upon noticing that a voter forgot to vote for something running after him down the street and hand leading him back to the polling place to correct the problem. In essence that is what the Democrats are insisting on. It is also noteworthy that they created an aggressive anti-military ballot disqualification campaign which reveals they are anything but interested in insuring any votes other than the ones they think will go for Gore. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:51:30 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Songwriting In a message dated 11/23/00 7:53:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << So when did you all first realize the growth/development of Joni's songwriting ability? And what struck you about her talent? >> Well, I'm waiting for my chocolate torte to finish baking, so I may as well contribute. The Rev picks "Blue" for his first realization about Joni's songwriting ability. "Blue" is pretty darn close for me, but I started listening to Joni with my sister's copy of "For the Roses." At the time, I was just at the start of my teenaged "who am I" angst and "Lesson in Survival," (most specially "guru books, the Bible, only a reminder that you're just not good enough"), really turned on a light that lyrics could be more than the peppy "Last Train to Clarksville" stuff that was my usual diet. Not to show disrespect for those songs, but with FTR, it was my first real glimpse that songs could do more than provide a singalong feeling, the they could provide a road map for delving into yourself. Naturally, over time I've found other artists who also have provided that map for me, (and I've found that Leonard Cohen is vastly superior to Joni for this sort of stuff for me), but Joni remains the first and after "FTR" I knew that I could find a lot of solace within words. MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:33:21 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Songwriting (md) In a message dated 11/23/00 7:53:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << The texts of her songs have become such works of extraordinary complexity and beauty that all patterns seem to be broken. Can anyone else today write a lyric like Joni? No... >> For the last several weeks (months actually due to time constraints) I have been working on an album in my home studio of Joni covers. Some on the list have heard the first four songs. Doing this project has given me some insight into what Vince has said here. I recall when Susan Cowsil sang a Joni tune at the Pazfest in New Orleans and made on stage an interesting comment about how her (Joni's) songs sound easy to sing until you actually try to sing one. So to first address the melody part of writing the song. In some cases the vocal demands are difficult because her voice is so good and has such extraordinary abilities that to try to follow her exact line is to send your voice to its extremities. You get to points in the song where you can really see that there is this melody that is far more difficult to duplicate than the ear made it seem. As for the lyrics Joni in my humble opinion isnt writing lyrics, she is writing poetry. There is a big difference between the two. Lyrics are generally uniform in meter and rhyme. Poetry isnt. I know some will jump in with an anomolie here and there but by and large they are uniform and the meter and rhyme is repetitive. Not so with Joni. Poetry allows for sometimes completely unmatched word ensembles and almost anything goes. Take the song River which is one Im working on. I would record the guitar track and then go to see how the vocal worked with the playing and it wouldnt fit. So Id do it over again and the same thing happened. So i took Blue and listened to the song about ten time and in my listening separated the piano from the vocal and this pattern emerged. That I will try to explain. It is typical for song lines to have endings that rhyme in some way. I have found that Joni has a very unique way of doing this. For instance take the lines from the song: I wish I had a river so long I would teach my feet to fly I wish I had a river I could skate away on I made my baby cry You can see in this printed stanza that she has 'long' and 'on' and 'fly' and 'cry'. But if you listen to the song itself and the way she applies her melody and her vocal treatment you end up with what appears to be a completely different connection. The melody she sings actually connects the words "long and "fly" as if that is the complete stanza. But "long" and "fly" dont rhyme at all yet she lingers vocally on the word "fly" for a very long extended treatment so the listener is led to believe that she is trying to match two words that dont rhyme. (You need to listen carefully to this to see this example). Then when she does the third line in the stanza "I wish I had a river I could skate away on " she uses a melody line that for all intents and purposes completes the verse melody on the third line. So you are still hearing what appears to be the end of the verse because the melody matches even though the words dont. When she does the fourth line "I made my baby cry" it is with a completely different melody than the verse the words are supposed to be in. The melodic line of the fourth line is almost like what is called a coda or attachment (a musical hanging chad...Im kidding) .You can call this different or you can call this genius but I know of no other writer who does this. (I can surely be corrected by someone for sure but I dont know any and Ive been doing music all my life). This is what makes Jonis songwriting so special. I have found many such examples in her music. She is not bound by any rules. She uses whatever words she wants and does alot of things with her voice and melody line that can only come from pure inspiration. Somehow it fits or should I say she makes it fit. It may leave your ear and brain twisted but it absolutely works. This is why no one can imitate her. In short The Reverend is absolutely correct in his statement above. I hope I have provided some insight as to why or how. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 02:40:09 +0800 (PHT) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: The Grinch - njc Hi Catherine: I watched this film at about the same time you did (add some hours earlier for global compatibility) here in Manila;-) I like Dr. Seuss' stories most especially THE LORAX which achingly captured the sadness of having a world without trees. So I watched HOW THE GRINCH STOLE CHRISTMAS knowing that Dr. Seuss' stories never disappoint. And I like the story. Especially what the Grinch said about Christmas presents (made me remember TOY STORY II when Jessie sang that poignant song brought to poignant life by Sarah McLachlan's vocals). You're right that Jim Carrey was perfect as the cave-dwelling curmudgeon, but I think that much of his success owes to the fact that he was in this green costume so that the audience can't be reminded of his famous face. There were many riotous moments in the film made even funnier because of the particular delivery of Dr. Seuss' clever lines as well as the physical comedy only Carrey can... well... carry. I like Ron Howard films (THE PAPER, EDtv) but at the back of my mind, I sincerely thought he was kind of miscast (mishelmed?) as a director for such a film. Maybe I came to expect films like this to be handled by Hollywood's resident quirk director Tim Burton that I thought it lacked the requisite darkness and menace especially in the production sets. Overall, I still like the film because of the timelessness of the message; the perfect casting of Christine Baranski, and aww shucks... that scene when the Grinch took the tablecloth from the table full of things and what he did right after that. I can't suppress the laughter that seems to find its way out of me everythime I remember it. Just an opinion... Joseph (didn't know Mariah Carey co-wrote the theme song in the film and opted to NOT sing and leave the vocal tasks to Faith Hill) On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Catherine McKay wrote: > Has anyone seen "The Grinch" movie yet? I saw it on > Saturday, with my son. I went in thinking it was > going to be one of those overblown special-effects > kind of movies and didn't think I'd enjoy it (but was > hoping that there would be something to redeem it.) > > Ten minutes into the film and I'm enjoying it > immensely, but still wondering when I'm going to be > let down and boredom or too-much-of-a-good-thing > syndrome will set in. It didn't happen. > > Let me tell you - I have never laughed so much, or so > consistently, throughout a film in ages. I absolutely > loved it and couldn't recommend it highly enough. > > Yes, there were a lot of special effects, and often > movies that use these are all form and no substance, > but it was so well-done, so true to the wacky spirit > of Dr Seuss (but with a message!) > > And I wasn't sure about Jim Carey in the title role, > but he was just perfect. Despite all the makeup and > hair all over him, every facial expression was > captured. You forgot it was Carey - he really becomes > the Grinch. > > Go see this film - take your kids, take your parents, > take your grouchy friends! It's delightful. If you > don't like it... you're a mean one! > > P.S. Not collecting any commission for shamelessly > plugging a film with which I have nothing to do. > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:36:04 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: THE James Madison weighs in on The Fla. Supreme Court "The accumulation of all powers legislative, executive and judiciary in the same hands . . . may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny." - - James Madison, Federalist 47 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:48:44 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Songwriting > The texts of her songs have become such works of extraordinary > complexity and beauty that all patterns seem to be broken. Can anyone > else today write a lyric like Joni? No... > just because I am feeling devilish I will point out that you can't know if there is anyone out there who uses words the way Joni does because you can't possibly have heard everybody! Dar Williams reminds me very much of Joni in her use of wrods and music. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 09:56:24 -0800 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Thanksgiving Tale Thank you Joni - for all of the healing you have brought to our lives. I typed the following from an article that appeared in the San Jose Mercury News, May 18, 1998: The grinding car crash almost four years ago left one person dead and Scotts Valley artist Michael Cramer in a deep coma with serious brain injuries. "The doctors said he had only a 5% chance of recovery," recalls Cramer's mother Jody. But her son was a big Joni Mitchell fan - he'd collected all the singer's CDs and videos - so Jody brought a boom box into the hospital room and played Mitchell's music constantly. "We had to have some way to reach him," she explains. After two months, Michael slowly began to regain consciousness, a flickering eyelid here, a finger twitch there. Eventually, he was able to scribble a note - "I love Joni Mitchell" - but it took 22 more months of hospitalization before enough of his faculties had returned to allow him to return home. Now 26 and painting again, he'll be in his wheelchair in the front row Tuesday night at the San Jose Arena when Mitchell, Bob Dylan and Van Morrison perform. "He'd like to give her a painting in thanks," Jody says. "She might not realize the effect that music can have sometimes." Perhaps she does now. Leslie Mixon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 09:56:44 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: THE James Madison weighs in on The Fla. Supreme Court NJC > "The accumulation of all powers legislative, executive and judiciary in the > same hands . . . may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny." > > - James Madison, > Federalist 47 > And as George W. himself said: "The legislature's job is to write law. It's the executive branch's job to interpret law."--Austin, Texas, Nov. 22, 2000 Happy Turkey Day, everybody! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:17:38 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Thomas Jefferson on the Florida Supreme Court Decision (njc) Published: June 20, 1807 Author: Thomas Jefferson (letter to George Hay) One comment. "...The leading principle of our Constitution is the independence of the Legislature, executive and judiciary of each other, and none are more jealous of this than the judiciary. But would the executive be independent of the judiciary, if he were subject to the commands of the latter, & to imprisonment for disobedience; if the several courts could bandy him from pillar to post, keep him constantly trudging from north to south & east to west, and withdraw him entirely from his constitutional duties? The intention of the Constitution, that each branch should be independent of the others, is further manifested ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:42:41 -0800 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Cooking Music (NJC) We're listening to Stevie Wonder, Fulfillingness First Finale as we prepare our Thanksgiving Meal. I couldn't help wondering what you other folks listen to while cooking. Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:45:16 -0800 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: Songwriting Several years ago a Canadian Joni-tribute album was released (sorry, I can't remember the name) but I recall thinking how pedestrian all of the arrangements sounded. Shortly after that, I heard an interview with Joni where she said (something like) no one on the album understood that the chords, the melody and the lyrics of her songs are all separate and somewhat independent of each other. This concept perhaps helps to explain why I can sing her songs a capella and I can chord them just fine but when I try to put the two together, I get lost. (Or maybe I'm just an incompetent musician!) Ranger Rick > From: MDESTE1@aol.com > In a message dated 11/23/00 7:53:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, > revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: > > << The texts of her songs have become such works of extraordinary > complexity and beauty that all patterns seem to be broken. Can anyone > else today write a lyric like Joni? No... >> > I recall when Susan Cowsil sang a Joni tune at the Pazfest in New Orleans and > made on stage an interesting comment about how her (Joni's) songs sound easy > to sing until you actually try to sing one. > > So to first address the melody part of writing the song. In some cases the > vocal demands are difficult because her voice is so good and has such > extraordinary abilities that to try to follow her exact line is to send your > voice to its extremities. You get to points in the song where you can really > see that there is this melody that is far more difficult to duplicate than > the ear made it seem. > > As for the lyrics Joni in my humble opinion isnt writing lyrics, she is > writing poetry. There is a big difference between the two. Lyrics are > generally uniform in meter and rhyme. Poetry isnt. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:37:25 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) Chris asked: > Is there (I'm asking here, not suggesting) an issue with the >>automated counting machines not being able to decipher a >dimpled/partially punched/totally punched hole? I seem to >recall hearing a radio commentator comment (heh) that the >hand count had revealed that the automated count was >inaccurate. Could partially punched/dimpled hole count for >that? When you hear information that the hand count has revealed that the machine count was inaccurate, this only pertains to two of the three counties involved, and it is based upon a small, I think, only 1% sampling of the ballots. The canvassing boards do a sample hand recount and, based on how many votes each candidate got in the sample, make the decision as to whether they think their could have been errors in the machine count. It strikes me as highly subjective and unscientific way to determine errors in the machine count - it is speculative. Then based on their judgment, the canvassing board can decide whether to allow the full hand recount. In the case of Miami-Dade county, the canvassing board judged that there had not been enough of an indication of error in the machine count to continue the hand count and so they stopped the process yesterday. They have been given the power to make this determination legally and the Florida Supreme Court even affirmed Tuesday that it was their decision, yet Gore's lawyers went back to that court to force Miami-Dade to continue. As I am writing this, the news has just announced that the Florida Supreme Court has dismissed the Gore lawyer's motion. They couldn't very well overturn their own ruling from Tuesday. >Surely if you suspect the automated machinery to be, um, >mechanically partisan, then a hand count is the only way to >go *to be sure*. Assuming you trust the people doing the >hand count. On that basis, stopping hand counts doesn't >seem like a rational decision to make. Frankly, I don't think I trust most anyone doing the hand count. The exercise is fraught with the opportunity for human error. Plus, the constant handling and rehandling of these ballots causes more and more chads to fall out in error. If I had to pick the best devil to properly conduct the hand count, it would be a certified public accountant firm such as Price Waterhouse, who would (theoretically) be the most impartial, profressional and systematic when it came to handling and recounting the ballots. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:55:56 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Abraham Lincoln on Thanksgiving (njc) From Lincolns Thanksgiving Proclamation "I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:05:41 -0800 (PST) From: davidpaulmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: Re: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) I don't understand the indignation frankly. A hand count is the legal remedy for disputed returns. It is a simple mater to look at a card and see what is there, and each ballot is being observed by a representatives from both parties. I thought that one Republican mantra was to trust in the basic goodness of people. Why not just do that? Remember that the Bush camp made it very clear that if Bush were to win the popular vote but lose the electoral, he would begin a campaign to encourage defectors from the ranks of the electoral college. Why shouldn't Gore fight? If either side does not like a court ruling, there are avenues of appeal. That's how this country works. Let the constitution prevail -- I'm pretty sure that it will. Happy Thanksgiving to all! David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:49:33 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Florida Supreme Court's Bogus Decision NJC (md) This is from an article published today. The article is much longer and I would be happy to send the whole thing off list but read it slowly and think about what is really going on. <<>> This is why the hand counts dont work in this instance. You want more I can send it. regards marcel. . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:32:39 +0000 From: catman Subject: and a god descended NJC step through his trampled wall, the unhinged door betrays it all that far within our faith we awere all waiting the broken glass reflects the haze it shines like endless holy days struggling to remember what they're celebrating well a god descdended and the real time ended his light was lifted just above the law and now we have to live with what we did and what we saw well you mend your clothes and patch your roof and sliver's of god's shattered truth grow tender as the grass in clean swept yards but a saviour came and told us how the truth was all around us now abandon house and field and gather up the shards well a god descended and the real time ended his light was lifted just above the law and now we have to live with what we did and what we saw you build your faith with strength and duty build your love but there's a beauty well you know the scriptures tell there are a few shards left in hell and if we wanted god we had to follow, follow him down him down there were pictures torn out of their frames and orgies where we lost our names ending all with time's real desire well you ask how god can curse you thus that's not a question asked by us we burnt our books and beds we fear we've lost the fire a god descended and the real time ended his light was lifted just above the law and now i have to live with what i did and what i saw DAR WILLIAMS 2000 - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:44:42 -0500 From: "Diane Evans" Subject: Happy Birthday! Emily, Lindsay, and Elaine: Happy F*cking Birthday! Love and drumsticks, Diane _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:57:38 +0000 From: catman Subject: not for want of tyring NJC It seems a few people expected a pic of a human baby when i offered to pic of Clark. This came as a surpirse to me. that didn't occur to me. Despite trying for 20 years John and I are still not pregant so for now we leave bringing up babies to our dogs. I can't think what we are doing that doesn't work. - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:07:05 -0500 From: "Diane Evans" Subject: Re: Cooking Music (NJC) Leslie, This is America, kid! We listen to football, American style! :-D Diane _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:08:30 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Cooking Music (NJC) << I couldn't help wondering what you other folks listen to while cooking. >> Here's what I spun starting about 10 this morning while cooking in various forms was going on: Beth Orton, "Trailer Park" Emmy Lou Harris, "Red Dirt Girl" Paul Simon, "You're The One" Joe Slomp, "Introducing Joe Slomp"** Joan Osborne, "Righteous Love" The Wallflowers, "Breach" Rickie Lee Jones, "It's Like This" Jackson Browne, "Saturate Before Using" The Reivers, "Translate Slowly" Erykah Badu, "Mama's Gun" **This one, by a fellow JMDL'er, played while we actually dined on our meal, and was a great complement. We also enjoyed a bottle of 1997 Riesling wine given to me by Winfried Huehn from Germany & ended the meal with coffee from Marian in Austria. So I was indeed thankful for all my friends in JMDL land this time around! :~) Bob NP: Joan Osborne, "Safety In Numbers" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:13:36 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Songwriting (md) << So you are still hearing what appears to be the end of the verse because the melody matches even though the words dont. When she does the fourth line "I made my baby cry" it is with a completely different melody than the verse the words are supposed to be in. >> Great post, Marcel! Interesting to hear the take on Joni's writing from an actual writer of songs. And it's true that her songs are certainly WAY beyond the basic moon/June/spoon rhyme scheme. As an aside, the song "Moonlight In Vermont", a very pretty standard, has not a single rhyming line. So I think that's the point...Joni as a "composer", as opposed to a "songwriter ", doesn't comply with any 'prescribed standards'. And we're all the better for it! Now, if only she'd write some more! ;~) Bob NP: Rickie Lee Jones, "Up A Lazy River" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #622 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?