From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #600 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk VideoTree sign-up: http://www.jmdl.com/trading Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Monday, November 13 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 600 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Sign up for VideoTree #2 now: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: re IMHO NJC [catman ] Re: Hand counts (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: First-grade voters (absolutely NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] The "Hand Count" gambit. (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] RE: bjork NJC ["Eric Wilcox" ] And then there is Wisconsin (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: The "Hand Count" gambit. (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Look out the left the captain said. NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] the wacky dust (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Ages/Joni CD to purchase next? [Nancy ] Ani Di Franco- in concert in Cincinnati, NJC, Long... ["Jim L'Hommedieu] Re: For Paul/Republicans (NJC) [dsk ] Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) [jan gyn ] Re: Hand counts (NJC) [dsk ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 01:48:27 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: re IMHO NJC > > > And to paraphrase a joke from Woody Allen, there are worse things than > death; I know this was ajoke, but he is dead right about the first hafl. There are worse things than death. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:39:23 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Hand counts (NJC) colin wrote: > Listening tot he news about Bush's suit, it makes one >wonder what he is afraid of. Is he worried that a correct >counting will mean he has lost? Surely it would be better for >him to know he had really won rather than have all this >doubt? You can turn this around and ask what is Gore afraid of that he is asking for a third round of counting the ballots. 1. The election results in Florida put Bush as the winner 2. The first recount by machine put Bush as the winner 3. There will now be a third count (second recount) by hand, requested by Gore and carried out and "interpreted" only by officials from his political party. What would you people in the U.K. think of something like this? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:05:30 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: First-grade voters (absolutely NJC) In a message dated 11/12/00 10:59:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, PitassiM@WEAC.org writes: << 1) In San Francisco and other places, was exactly the same ballot used, or merely a similar one? What seems to be coming out from discussion is that ballots in other locales were actually different in significant ways, such as the location of the punch hole on the final version of the ballot, or failing to break the ballot up into two completely separate pages, as was done in West Palm Beach. Exactly the same ballot Bill Clinton was elected with twice. I guess the Demos won with illegal ballots twice. I guess when they win the ballots are fair. 2) Was the butterfly ballot used for presidential elections? I don't mean to imply that other elections are unimportant, but this result is singularly *im*portant, not only for West Palm Beach and Florida, but for the nation. According to Susan, the butterfly ballot was used in the Chicago area, but for local judicial races, not the presidential contest. >> See above. In SF it has been used for every election. This is a big fat joke. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:19:35 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: The "Hand Count" gambit. (NJC) I know you all think Im wacky when I state that the Dems are going all out to steal the election but the truth is it is real. Partisans are making partisan subjective decisions to try to somehow stealk this lection for Gore. JOHN FUND'S POLITICAL DIARY Wall Street Journal A Blatant Conflict of Interest Theresa LePore should recuse herself from the Palm Beach vote-count process. Sunday, November 12, 2000 1:03 p.m. EST If you would like to know exactly how your next president will be determined, read this Saturday night dispatch from the Associated Press: During the manual count of votes in Palm Beach County, Fla., officials switched tests mid-count to decide the validity of the ballots. In the morning, the canvassing board said that they would count a vote if any of the corners of the bits of paper punched out of the cards called "chad" were punched. The board then decided that they would instead use the "sunlight test" if they could see sun come though an indentation, it would count. About a quarter of the way through the counting, however, a board member determined that the light test was flawed and told the other members to go back to the first test. The change in procedures will undoubtedly slow down the hand count as board members had to go back and recount all of the votes previously counted using the new rules. After six hours of playing Carnac the Magnificent, holding up ballots and trying to divine the "intent" of the voters who cast them, the three-member Palm Beach County election canvassing commission completed its hand count of four sample precincts and took up the question of whether they had turned up enough "errors" using the new liberalized new standard to justify a complete recount of the county's ballots. County Judge Charles Burton, the commission's chairman, urged caution. He put forth a motion to ask the Florida Secretary of State's office for advice before proceeding with a full hand count. But he was overruled. The vote for the complete recount, which came after 2 a.m. today, was 2-1. The two other members of the canvassing board are Carol Roberts, a county commissioner, and Theresa LePore, the county elections supervisor. Ms. Roberts is a highly partisan Democrat who met with President Clinton in Palm Beach last year while she was contemplating a run for Congress. Ms. LePore, an elected Democrat, is the designer of the infamous "butterfly ballot" that both Democrats and impartial observers say caused confusion on Election Day. Ms. LePore says she designed the ballot to make the print bigger for seniors, the group complaining the loudest about it. But she sent sample ballots to every voter and all candidates before the election and didn't receive any complaints. Nonetheless, she has come in for bitter criticism. The AP says she "might be the most reviled Democrat in the country" because her ballot "may have cost Al Gore the election." Ms. LePore has gone into near-seclusion and has hired a lawyer to defend herself against lawsuits. It is for that reason that Ms. LePore should have recused herself from the decision to launch an unprecedented hand count of all presidential ballots in Palm Beach--and why she should recuse herself from all subsequent decisions about this election. She has a blatant conflict of interest. Ms. LePore has worked in the Palm Beach election office since she was 16. As an elected official, she obviously would like to continue in office. If she did not approve the controversial hand count in the heavily Democratic county, it's obvious she would have no political future. Two months ago, the same Palm Beach County election commissioners rejected a request for a hand count in a disputed GOP primary election for a state legislative seat. Beverly Green begged for a hand count of her 13-vote loss but was rebuffed. "It wasn't that close. The manual count is historically when it's single digits," said Ms. LePore at the time. A state House district is smaller than Palm Beach County, but a single-digit margin in such a district would be the equivalent of only about 100 votes countywide. Clearly Ms. LePore & Co. are applying a double standard. The decision to proceed with the hand count was made by a single vote--Ms. LePore's. Do the American people want a single low-level politician who fears for her job to decide who will be the president of the United States? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:22:41 -0600 From: "Eric Wilcox" Subject: RE: bjork NJC I just saw Bjork in "Dancer in the Dark" yesterday--- what a movie! I never thought a movie could be playful and heart-wrenching at the same time! eric - --- eric wilcox edwilcox@students.wisc.edu "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious." -Oscar Wilde - --- - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Wally Kairuz Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 7:31 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: bjork NJC and happy birthday bjork!!!!!!!! wallyk - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de kerry Enviado el: Domingo, 12 de Noviembre de 2000 04:07 p.m. Para: Murphycopy@aol.com CC: joni@smoe.org Asunto: Conservative music NJC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AND on a totally different note -- HAPPY BIRTHDAY NEIL YOUNG!!!! Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:32:11 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: And then there is Wisconsin (NJC) In case there is any doubt about how Gore and the Demos are trying to steal the election........ With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff Sunday Nov. 12, 2000 5:33 pm EST GOP Reveals Massive Voter Fraud in Milwaukee The Republican Party of Wisconsin has released a list of allegations of voter irregularity and fraud in Milwaukee. Reportedly the District Attorney there is now investigating: Incident: Marquette students were seen taking 10 or more ballots at a time. Incident: Ballots were taken out of the polling place. Incident: Individuals entered the voting place with more than one addressed envelope and asked which one would allow them to vote in that location. Incident: A voter was asked by another voter to vouch for her residence in the ward. He said he wouldn't, and the woman appealed to another person in line. The other person claimed to poll workers that she was his roommate. Incident: A voter was told that she had already voted upon arriving at her polling place. She was asked to sign an affidavit verifying who she was and was not told what happened to her first ballot. Incident: A polling place had a "help yourself" pile of ballots. Voters could have easily voted more than once. Incident: Ballots were left sitting on a chair prior to being fed through the machine. Poll workers were seen looking through them. Incident: UWM students voted on campus. Another voter showed his off-campus address to a poll worker. The poll worker told him, "You can't vote here. Put down [address of dorm] instead." The same student said friends were bragging about having voted for Gore five or six times. Incident: A voter was told that his marks on the ballot were too dark and was asked to redo the ballot. The voter did not see the other ballot destroyed. Incident: A ballot machine in Wauwatosa was broken, and until the machine was fixed, ballots were stacked next to the machine. Incident: Ballots may have been left unattended in some areas of Milwaukee due to a broken-down truck. Incident: Two ballots were given to a man wearing a Milwaukee County Public Schools jacket. When he tried to return a ballot, he was told that he should have two. Incident: Poll workers told a voter to "vote Democrat." Incident: A voter tried to register to vote at the 4th Precinct in the 72nd Ward of Milwaukee. He was not asked for identification or proof of address. Poll workers tried to prevent him from filling out a registration card. Registration cards that he observed only had a signature, no address. Incident: Votes in Ward 296, District 16, called the city clerk to verify what was needed to re-register at a new address. When they re-registered, they were not asked for any proof of residence. Incident: Nonregistered voters were not asked for identification at the 6th District polling place. Incident: A new voter was not required to show any identification at the Cumberland School in Whitefish Bay. Incident: A Marquette student had moved since voting in the April primary. Poll workers told her "not to worry about it and just go ahead and vote" when she attempted to change her address. Incident: A voter was given three different ballots due to mistakes he made on them. The two previous ballots were not seen destroyed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:23:43 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: The "Hand Count" gambit. (NJC) Marcel wrote: > I know you all think Im wacky when I state that the Dems >are going all out to steal the election but the truth is it is >real. You, and about half of the United States if not more at this point. Not to mention much of the world, who are also watching this with a clear, fairly objective view. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:55:59 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Look out the left the captain said. NJC << My good buddy Mark (who bears an uncanny resemblence to Bob Muller btw...!) is a die-hard conservative. >> Yes, we're a franchise! Only *I* chose the bleeding-heart liberal option as opposed to the die-hard conservative option! :~) Good to hear from you, John...I was wondering where you'd been hiding! Bob NP: Beck, live 5-2-00 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:05:26 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: the wacky dust (NJC) i don't think you're wacky at all, marcel. i think that you are standing up for what you believe in and i admire you for it. i believe the same is true about all those that have expressed their views on the election issue. this debate has been a most enlightening experience for me, and i am learning a great deal about people's beliefs, assumptions, personalities and argumentative skills. i would like to thank everyone participating in this tremendously exciting exchange -- kakki, the rev, paul, richard, et al -- and of course you too, marcel. i am obviously aware that none of you is doing it for my sake; still, you have unwittingly contributed to enriching my perspective on US affairs and history and, most surprisingly, on the nature of my own country's politics and politicians. politics and community issues have always been central to my appreciation of life. i am grateful to be a member of this list in such exciting times. wallyK - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de MDESTE1@aol.com Enviado el: Domingo, 12 de Noviembre de 2000 11:20 p.m. Para: joni@smoe.org Asunto: The "Hand Count" gambit. (NJC) I know you all think Im wacky when I state that ........ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:39:12 +0000 From: Nancy Subject: Re: Ages/Joni CD to purchase next? It's been fun reading the comments made about ages…of those who responded, the majority seem to be mid-40's. Since I started this thread, I guess I should share *my* age! I'm 44. My favorite Joni recording is Miles of Aisles, so I would suggest that one! Nancy/IA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:46:07 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Ani Di Franco- in concert in Cincinnati, NJC, Long... OH MY GAWD!! (Reg. US Patent Off.) Remember when a Rolling Stone editor (G. Marcus?) wrote, "Tonight I saw the future of rock 'n roll. His name is.... Bruce Springsteen." ? Well, tonight I saw Ani De Franco. I don't have any of Ms. DiFranco's recordings but she was highly recommended on JMDL so I went. Here is my experience. I walked in 5 minutes into her set and man, the audience was esctatic. She did a song with lots and lots of syncopation and false endings; I love rhythmn so I gave her a gold star on the spot. Then she did her hit song "32 Flavors (and then some)" and man, was the band tight! Another gold star. Between songs she cooed that she had "spotted a beauty in pink, down front here! Man, is THAT s sight for sore eyes!" Okay, she gets a silver star from me for being bold and honest about her passions. Next, she started a song with the startling observation that "White people are so afraid of black people." She noticed that "the Berlin Wall is alive and well on Main Street", "dividing East from West". (Now in Cincinnati, there just happens to BE a demarcation between the blue-collar West siders and the professionals and managers on the East side. The crowd cheered.) Then she noted the "loop-de-loop streets" (cul-de-sacs of suburbia?) and finished by flatly stating that America is "one big subdivision." Oh, my! Then she had a story about a New Yorker "selling hairdriers out of a gym bag" who theorizes that the stuff 'they' are spraying, supposedly to kill the disease that the mosquitos are carrying, is a potion to keep us down. He delivers this news to Ani "as one lab rat to another". Well, she gets a gold star for _lyrics_ too! Then they did a number where the band sounded like a cross between Weather Report and the Crusaders. Oh gees! Another gold star. By now the parallels were piling up faster than you can say "Deep". On the next song, the band was doing a Cuban jazz thing. Okay, how many gold stars can she credibly get in one evening for music? She hit so many of my musical hot spots, it was uncanny! Then she did a song where she sounded like a 50s hipster, rapping against a swinging jazzy rhythmn. She swings too. Another gold star. Then she did a duo with her keyboard player who turned out to be a woman. While they traded solos, Laura (Laurie?) got closer, and closer, and closer. Then kissed her. Okay, so now her conditional silver star for courage and honesty has been upgraded to a gold star. (Suddenly I was remembering Charles Mingus saying "She's a nervy broad!") In many of her songs, she used rock to (dare I say it?) add brush stokes of texture in short figures or longer interludes. Another gold star. She did some credible scatting. Another gold star. The evening was over far too quickly. No, I mean that literally- she did, like 75 minutes! Far too early! But, as my half-Jewish cousins on Long Island might ask, "What's not to like?" - -- As I was filling out of the theatre, a couple behind me was discussing Ani: She: "So.. is she JUST lyrics, now?" He: "....... No." All the best, Jim "in love again" L'Hommedieu np: Steve & Leslie Mixon's former band, The Yazoo Blues Revue" "OH MY GAWD!!" is a registered trademark, jointly held by Kakki and Paz of the Joni Mitchell Internet Community and is used with their permission. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:57:44 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: For Paul/Republicans (NJC) Kakki wrote: > You are spinning my original comments. All I inferred was that Lincoln was a > good example of a "pure" Republican. I also went on to say that the parties' > idealogy/philosophy has been perverted from its original over time. So we > are saying the same thing in this regard - so why spin my comments? Lincoln is not an example of a Republican as we know Republicans today, pure or impure. That's not a spin; that's a fact. It was clear from your comment about "the original Republicans being more like the Libertarians of today" that you did not know what the original philosophy of the Republican party was. I did and wrote about it, so how could we have said the same thing? I said the emphasis on states rights switched from the Democratic party to the Republican (which I think of as changing, not being perverted); you talked about factions glomming onto the original parties ... undermining their ideology. Are you thinking that since we were both talking about change we were saying the same thing? Ok, I can live with that, although there's a big difference in tone between the words switched and undermined. To be complete about it, here's your original paragraph: "I may be deluded but it has always been my understanding that a true Republican, one who sticks to the original idealogy, is someone who staunchly believes in individual rights to live your life the way you choose. I think the original Republicans were more like the Libertarians of today. It seems that at some point there were a few factions that glommed onto the party and gave it a bad name. We all know what those factions are. Their original ideology of upholding individual freedom has been greatly perverted by the sway of those factions. There have also been factions that glommed onto the Democratic party over the years which have also undermined their ideology." > > States' rights versus the federal government is the main difference > between the > ideologies of today's two main parties, and it plays itself out > in many > > different ways. > > I don't believe this is accurate. This *is* accurate and it's very basic. Different actions result from those different philosophies if people are being true to what they believe. The reality of politics, however, is that people are often forced into moderation in order to get anything done. That does not mean the underlying differences no longer exist, but it may make it harder to see them. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:12:00 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) >Are you saying that it's awful when Republicans slam women and gay people >but when Democrats slam white men it is just fine?? Why did you bring >misogyny and homophobia into this? > >"Politically incorrect" is incorrect even if the target is a white man, >right? > >Jim, a white man. (Not particularly proud of it, just stating where my >political antenna is...) Works for me! - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:09:57 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) >Yes, this is the joni mitchell list and therefore no surprise that it >leans pretty far to the left most of the time. But i would like to think >that given the obvious quality of people on this list, a reality that is >revealed in every digest i receive, we could rise above the name-calling >(and worse), even when discussing politics. > >don I think Bush is a yahoo motherf*cker; that's my opinion, albeit a negative one. Some weeks ago there were some posts about blues hack Eric Clapton being a 'saint'; a positive opinion. What's wrong with freely expressing negative feelings, as well as ideas? Our subjects are public figures, which are fair game. This is cyberspace; all we are to one another (for the most part) are brittle little sentences, so why not celebrate our God given viciousness? - -jan P.S. Don Rowe, I just returned from a Xena con, and Hudson Leick (Callisto) RULED. I've seen many a diva in my time: Joni, Kiri Te Kanawa, Nico- and Hudson blew them all off the map in terms of sheer attitude! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:21:23 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Spin (NJC) Kakki wrote: > > Me now. Kakki, I'm curious. What about Debra's >comments struck you as > "spin"? > > Well, Mary, she seemed to be reacting to my original comments as if I'd > stated Reagan and Bush, Sr. were "pure" Republicans, which I never said. I > never mentioned those two nor was I discussing modern day Republican > ideology other than to say it had changed from the original. She came back > to assert the same thing I did (Republicans today are not the same as in > Lincoln's day) but framed it in a way that tried to make it appear that I > had said the opposite. I wasn't talking about you, Kakki. I was talking about Reagan and Bush, Sr. followers and I don't know, don't care and it's none of my business whether you are or are not in that group. You did not know what the original Republican philosophy was. Your guesses about it were incorrect. I did know about that philosophy and wrote about it. On this issue, how can you think we said the same thing? And what does it matter whether we did or not? > > To me, she was expressing an honest opinion that didn't happen to be the > same as yours. > > Wrong, to me she was expressing the same thing I had originally but trying > to distance herself from that fact in a way that I thought was spinning my > original comments. Maybe you've forgotten exactly what each of us originally expressed. Debra Shea P.S. The word "spin" nowadays has very negative connotations. I merely express my opinions. There's no reason for me to use yours in order to get my point across, except to sometimes disagree and explain why. Twisting, spinning? No, not my style; if anything, I am annoyingly straightforward. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 01:09:46 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Hand counts (NJC) catman wrote: > Listening tot he news about Bush's suit, it makes one wonder what he is afraid of. Is he > worried that a correct counting will mean he has lost? Surely it would be better for him > to know he had really won rather than have all this doubt? Hi, Colin, Yes, Bush is afraid he will lose when the votes are counted by hand. Otherwise, there would be no reason for him to go to a federal court to try to block such a count. If Bush was confident about the outcome, why not just let it happen? Gore, too, obviously wants to be president, and is doing what Florida law allows in order to possibly achieve that. If the Republicans thought that recounting the votes in particular counties would benefit them, they would have asked for that also. (Each party has the right to do that since the vote was so close.) Debra Shea ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #600 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?