From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #597 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk VideoTree sign-up: http://www.jmdl.com/trading Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Sunday, November 12 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 597 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Sign up for VideoTree #2 now: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni's left-leaning fans (vljc) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Exuberance, Re: songs that evoke emotions (NJC) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] wrong ballots? NJC [CarltonCT@aol.com] Daddy (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Shhhhh!!!! (NJC) [Michael Paz ] RE: (NJC) maybe I'll go to Amsterdam. maybe I'll go to Rome... ["Lori R. ] the rabbit died, don't tell PETA (njc) ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: Joni's left-leaning fans (VLJC)NJC [susan+rick ] Re: EC (njc) ["Kakki" ] American Beauty (NJC) ["C.A. Starkey" ] Re: For Paul (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni and Clinton (VLJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: thanksgiving meal (njc) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Joni's left-leaning fans NJC [Don Sloan ] New Poll- Press Blew It was RE: Craziness, NJC ["Jim L'Hommedi] Re: ballot details NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] mom's puppies (njc) ["Wally Kairuz" ] katrina and kid A njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: (NJC) maybe I'll go to Amsterdam. maybe I'll go to Rome... ["Mark or ] Political ideologies [was: Joni's left-leaning fans] NJC [dsk ] Re: Shhhhh!!!! (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: N - JC reminder [Penny ] Re: For Paul/Republicans (NJC) [dsk ] Re: For Paul/Republicans (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Ballot stuff (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni and Clinton (VLJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:40:59 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's left-leaning fans (vljc) In a message dated 11/11/00 6:19:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << I may be deluded but it has always been my understanding that a true Republican, one who sticks to the original idealogy, is someone who staunchly believes in individual rights to live your life the way you choose. I think the original Republicans were more like the Libertarians of today. >> If what you say were true, I doubt that Republican President Abraham Lincoln would have gone to war to preserve the Union, and instead would have favored the rights of states and their citizens to "live the life the way they choose." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:49:36 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Exuberance, Re: songs that evoke emotions (NJC) Exuberance: "Going For The One" by Yes. This is audio adrenaline. "Rosalita" in the studio. Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band. "Pink Cadillac" on the live album. Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:06:40 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: ballot details NJC Putting aside politics for a moment, conspiracy theories, etc., how would you explain 19,000 getting it wrong? ******************************************** Kate Bennett featured this month at Taylor Guitars www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/ www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:23:03 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: wrong ballots? NJC Marcel writes: "In at least two states First Grade teachers now have each had their classes of 6 year olds use the same ballot and vote for candidates. Guess what. Not one 6 year old first grader got it wrong. Not one. About 60 six year olds. In San Francisco we have used the same ballot for over 8 years without one complaint. This idea that somehow these ballots were difficult or misleading is just 100% wrong. " It's not 100 per cent wrong. We've all seen Pat Buchanan acknowledge he got 3000 plus votes he shouldn't have gotten in a heavily Democratic, Jewish area. Jews don't vote for a man who denies the Holocaust and they are among the most educated and accomplished of ethnic groups and not easily confused. I look forward to Gore getting elected as a result of determining who actually voted for him. And if he can't do it with a recount, I support his fighting it out in the courts until the will of the people is genuinely realized. I think Bush's anxiety and his lack of a real belief in the outcome of the election has manifested itself in something unsightly on his face. - - Clark NP: Beastie Boys - Licensed to Ill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:48:53 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Daddy (NJC) Evian wrote: " Good Lord.... me as someone's father.... that's kinda a scary thought if you really think about it!" EVIAN_ Many blessings to you and your wife. I am sure that if you aren't a great daddy now you will be about 5 minutes after the birth. One word of warning. You will start acting like one or both of your parents and find yourself saying things you never thought would come out of your own mouth. This is a perfectly normal thing to happen and DO NOT be alarmed it gets much worse as you go along. I can't tell you how many joys you have coming your way. Be well and take care of dear old mom. Love Paz P.S. BTW, have plenty of sex now while she is pregnant cause after you have kids.... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:52:39 -0800 From: Michael Paz Subject: Shhhhh!!!! (NJC) Clark wrote: "Personally, I think people on this list should stop calling Bush a moron. He's an idiot. Or rather, a fucking idiot. " CLARK! Please! Marcel will hear you and his feelings will be hurt. He's got Bush up there with the Second Coming. Paz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:21:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: RE: (NJC) maybe I'll go to Amsterdam. maybe I'll go to Rome... Hi Jim! > Welcome back! Thanks. It's good to be back, good to have some time again to participate in this (still) liveliest and best of forums. At the end of your post, you wrote: > I hope this is not a dangerous place to discuss > issues dear to JMDLers. Let me turn the tables on > you, if I may, Lori. Why do you feel threatened > here? First, I don't think this is a "dangerous" place to discuss things, per se. In fact, this list is probably "safer" and more open-minded than most "music" discussion lists. (Of course you have to take into account that Joni is the reason we came together and Joni's fans are extraordinarly intellectual, IMO.) Sometimes list members feel threatened, but this is just a communications medium, and an imperfect one at that. If you're offended by something you just read, it's a good idea to take a breath and read the post again ... and again ... and make sure you really understand what the writer was trying to say. Because we can't see expression or hear intonation, things are sometimes misunderstood or taken too seriously ... a recent example is Marcel's tongue-in-cheek remark about the Dems needing reproductive assistance, which made me chuckle enough to write to Marcel and tell him so, even though I'm a card-carrying, Gore-voting Democrat! OTOH, there certainly have been times when there is no doubt whatsoever that a writer is being arrogant or snippy or (worse) hateful. As a longtime JMDL member (3+ years) and an even longer-time (not a word, but what the heck) emailer and chat room participant (though I gave that up some time ago), I've gone through and survived "internet dependency" and all the attendant emotional rollercoaster feelings one can imagine. And I've learned this: if you really don't like what you're reading, turn the damn thing off and walk away for awhile. Don't let it ruin your day. But I digress ... To answer your question, I don't feel threatened here, never have felt that way. Not to be redundant but rather to show the flow, here's what prompted my recent request: Bob (Murphycopy@aol.com) asked: > Besides politics, are there any other subjects we're > not *supposed* to discuss? In an ornery mood, I replied: > At the risk of starting another flame war -- oh hell, > I just feel like rocking a boat today! -- *some* of > us will agree that we are limited by *others* on the > amount of time we can spend discussing *certain* > issues. > > *We* know who *we* are! What was on my mind when I wrote the above were the times that some gay members on the list have felt that their thread was quickly "shut down" by because it was "too gay." I don't believe anyone is really asking that we have a lengthy discussion about the nitty-gritty details of gay sex -- or str8 sex, for that matter -- but it DOES seem that gay topics have been squashed sometimes, politely or not. Meanwhile, we discuss everything else about our lives at length and sometimes to the point of ridiculous. Str8 list members can and do write about their life partners, about whether they’ve ever done the goat dance (and since most of us know what that means, it’s a fairly graphic mental image!), about every personal and political detail of their lives. Their grammar and punctuation may be picked apart, but they rarely experience TSD (thread shut down). Anyway, I got a little feedback on my comment (mostly via personal email), and then you added, in part, this: > On the other hand, there have been some very open > discussions of sexuality this year including new > phrases (to me) like "Bear fodder" and offers of a > lady's uhm... affections for rent. No one > objected. No one. I've gotta admit I have no idea what "Bear fodder" is, and now that I consider it, it certainly *sounds* gay! Anyway, I couldn't resist responding to your comment with: > Admittedly, I've neglected reading quite a few > digests this year, so I'm a little out of touch. > Can you please point me to the period(s) of time or > the digest(s) where a very open discussion of > HOMOsexuality took place? Jim, you may not have intended to appear to avoid answering my question (which was really sort of rhetorical, if you want to know the truth), but you didn't really give me a straight answer (no pun intended) when you wrote: > Well, gay marriage came up several times. I'm NOT > saying it came up too often. I'm not flaming you, > Lori. I'm just saying that the List reflects > the interests of its members, who are, after all, > unmoderated. Certianly gay issues came up more > often than, say, the AIDS epidemic in Africa, the > double edge in-fighting on the West Bank, or global > warming, or even the Olympic Games. There are lots > of gay and lesbian folks (and some who've crossed > between the gay world and the straight one) and > everyone discusses whatever they please, as it was > intended. Jim honey ... talking about gay marriage is NOT the same as having a very open discussion about homosexuality! Again, I'm not saying we should discuss the finer points of fellatio or rimming (goddess knows "I" don't want to read about it!), but there is no way that "everyone discusses whatever they please." Maybe that’s just as well, but here’s the thing: Just like anyone, we gay and lesbian people want to talk about our lives. About ALL the parts of our lives. Because we are a minority and because we are usually the most vilified of all minorities, we find ourselves fighting all the time, everywhere, just for the right to be who we are, to love who we love -- and to be accepted as is. Flaming queen or papa bear or diesel dyke or high-maintenance femme or -- egads! -- Log Cabin Republican, we find our lives to be the essence of the statement, "the personal is the political." For a gay person (or for any good and intelligent person, for that matter), to find an oasis of open minds such as the JMDL is such an absolute joy. To learn that there is even one narrow mind in this ultimate "land of Joni" is an absolute disappointment. Regardless of topic, to EVER be told to shut up or take it elsewhere by another list member is a slap in the face. Afterall, this is an unmoderated, "Blue Ribbon" discussion list. And we do a pretty darn good job of policing ourselves. No one need act the "heavy." > As I see it, it's not like JMDL had lots of child- > bearing threads this past year either. It's not > like I've seen hetrosexuality jammed down anyone's > throat or even discussed that much. It's a warmer, > fuzzy experience than that. More asexual and > apolitical. I'll agree that most of the time it's warm and fuzzy here. Asexual and apolitical, though? Hardly. As far as heterosexuality being discussed, it's pretty much discussed constantly in one way or another. You just don't realize it because it's all around us, all the time. I'm blathering. Sorry to have gone on for so long ... believe me, it feels even longer from where I'm sitting! Again, I don't feel threatened here. This is a lovely place to "be." But I will always stick my neck out for those who find themselves under fire, and I will continue to occasionally ask those pesky questions that make you squirm. It's just the kind of gal I am! : ) Peace to all, Lori near DC (Hey Roberto, so much for my attempts at brevity!) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:28:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: the rabbit died, don't tell PETA (njc) Evian wrote: > Well, before Ashara shoots me for not telling the > list, just thought I would inform y'all if anyone > cares that in May, we are having a baby! I care! CONGRATULATIONS! > Good Lord.... me as someone's father.... that's > kinda a scary thought if you really think about it! Think about it, be scared, and YOU'LL DO A GREAT JOB! Take care, Lori (DC) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:48:20 -0800 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: Joni's left-leaning fans (VLJC)NJC Colin wrote: > In the end, none of us knows what is right and wrong. Not one of us knows what > TRUTH is. > We can only formulate an approximation of it according to our meaning > structures and > experience.We cannot be ojective, it is impossible. We assimaliate everything > according to > our meaning structures and experience. Even the physical world we do not see > as it is but > only as our brain and its structures determine we will see it. This is the truth as I see it also but this theory of course forces us to accept that those who believe they see the absolute TRUTH may indeed truly see it. Ranger Rick, untwisting his brain after working his way through that thought. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:50:41 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: EC (njc) Jim wrote: > > >I noticed that you liked the idea of minimally tweaking it >>to divide Electoral votes in a razor-thin election instead of >>going with a popular vote, out right. All I meant was that it sounded like a good idea, *if* there was to be some tweaking of the EC system, to spilt the electoral votes down the middle between both parties in future elections where there may be only a .5% margin in the popular vote in a state. Then again, once you start tweaking with anything, it often just opens the door to more and more tweaking until it benefits one aide or the other. Then, once again, the essential fairness provided by the EC system (to protect states' rights) is compromised, so maybe we should just continue with it the way it is - it seems to have worked overall for 200+ years. Why throw it out because of one election? Kakki, rapidly returning back to cynical apathy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:15:30 -0500 From: "C.A. Starkey" Subject: American Beauty (NJC) Anyone else see this film? I saw it in Long Island last year, and I just saw it again on H.B.O. fantastic film........LOVE IT!! (Kevin, you rule!!) The Neil Young and Beatles covers are simply brilliant. I can type a lengthy essay on the merits of this movie, but I'm too excited. Carol ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:01:36 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: For Paul (NJC) Paul wrote: > If what you say were true, I doubt that Republican President >Abraham Lincoln would have gone to war to preserve the >Union, and instead would have favored the rights of states >and their citizens to "live the life the way they choose." I see him as completely following Republican ideology by fighting to put an end to slavery once and for all. U.S. citizens were denying rights to fellow U.S. citizens in the South. The slaveowners' "rights" were illegal under U.S. law from the beginning. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:06:52 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni and Clinton (VLJC) Paul wrote: > Bit if I recall correctly, Joni's comments were critical of >Clinton's personality, not his politics or the way he was >doing his job as president. Paul, thank you for affirming that this article does exist and contains critical remarks of Joni towards Clinton. I disagree, however, that her critical remarks referred to his personality. I'd like to locate it again (if it hasn't been purged). I remember very well what she said (since it assured me that I was still O.K. to be on her discussion list) and it was all about his character. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:53:54 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: thanksgiving meal (njc) In a message dated 11/11/00 6:41:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, jmichaelpaz@telocity.com writes: << P.S. If your mom (in the third world country of Florida) was a real man, she would put a few jalapeno peppers in her Hush Puppies. Of course I have another story about her trapesing around the french quarter in some High Heeled Hush Puppies, but that's another story for another time. ;-} >> I resemble that remark!!!! only "you people" have to put jalepeno peppers in your hush puppies to hide the poor cooking of your region, but Michael, thanks for letting me borrow *your* high heels for the french quarter :~) Mom ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:12:09 -0800 From: Don Sloan Subject: Re: Joni's left-leaning fans NJC Kakki wrote: > > I may be deluded but it has always been my understanding that a true > Republican, one who sticks to the original idealogy, is someone who > staunchly believes in individual rights to live your life the way you > choose. I think the original Republicans were more like the Libertarians of > today. It seems that at some point there were a few factions that glommed > onto the party and gave it a bad name. We all know what those factions are. > Their original ideology of upholding individual freedom has been greatly > perverted by the sway of those factions. There have also been factions that > glommed onto the Democratic party over the years which have also undermined > their ideology. I believe this is pretty much on the mark, Kakki. As one who has voted almost exclusively for Libertarian Party candidates for about as long as the party has existed, I can say they support freedom and freedom of choice for everyone... but do not believe in using the absolute force of government to make people pay for what someone else wants to do. In short, libertarians do not believe in the use of force except in cases of self defense. They do not believe that a government or the majority has a right to do something that an individual doesn't have the right to do. Unfortunately, it seems that the majority of people in the USA - people on the Left and the Right - believe the government is an appropriate tool to make others do things they would not do of their own free will. Ironically (IMO), it's that issue of force that is at the basis of all the real heat in politics, i.e. people view the government as this big-ass hammer and they figure if *their* side doesn't win, they will get whacked with the same force they want to use on others. Quite puzzling to me.... don ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 07:05:39 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: New Poll- Press Blew It was RE: Craziness, NJC At the www.cnn.com web site, they revealed a new poll that found "-- nearly eight in ten said the TV news media acted irresponsibly on election night by broadcasting winner projections based on exit polls. Eighty-seven percent said the media were more interested in getting the results out first, rather than in getting them right" 87% ! Jim Lamadoo Where some have found their paradise, others just come to harm. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:07:17 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: ballot details NJC In a message dated 11/11/00 6:50:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << In at least two states First Grade teachers now have each had their classes of 6 year olds use the same ballot and vote for candidates. Guess what. Not one 6 year old first grader got it wrong. Not one. About 60 six year olds. In San Francisco we have used the same ballot for over 8 years without one complaint. This idea that somehow these ballots were difficult or misleading is just 100% wrong. >> Marcel, our local newspaper (which could be incorrect) reported that the teacher's ballot's were not of the butterfly type and the arrows which pointed to their favorite Disney characters were extremely large. I think Goofie was the favorite, which could mean we have a lot of young Florida republicans out there :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:09:41 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: mom's puppies (njc) you *resemble* that remark?!?!?!?! anyhoo, now i want jalapeños in my hushies, so put on your apron mom!!!!! wallyK, who liked the idea and is going to make hush puppies for argentine television next thursday. i will also cook blue ribbon burgers and a mushroom topping [the things one learns having sex in new york city...] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. michael to jimmy and jimmy to michealacious: << P.S. If your mom (in the third world country of Florida) was a real man, she would put a few jalapeno peppers in her Hush Puppies. Of course I have another story about her trapesing around the french quarter in some High Heeled Hush Puppies, but that's another story for another time. ;-} >> I resemble that remark!!!! only "you people" have to put jalepeno peppers in your hush puppies to hide the poor cooking of your region, but Michael, thanks for letting me borrow *your* high heels for the french quarter :~) Mom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:29:11 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: katrina and kid A njc i've just discovered that i have not one but TWO katrina and the waves cd's: self-titled and break of hearts. i'm the process of playing ''walking on sunshine'' at an astoundingly loud volume. AND........i've bought kid A. it's fabulous!!! very very trippy! i love the keyboard thingy at the beginning of kid A, the track. wallyK, ''...i'm walking on sunshiiiiiiine ... whoooooooa...'' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:01:05 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: (NJC) maybe I'll go to Amsterdam. maybe I'll go to Rome... > Again, I don't feel threatened here. This is a lovely > place to "be." But I will always stick my neck out > for those who find themselves under fire, and I will > continue to occasionally ask those pesky questions > that make you squirm. It's just the kind of gal I am! And you're my kinda gal, Lori! If I were a lesbian, I'd go for you! ;-) Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:17:37 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Political ideologies [was: Joni's left-leaning fans] NJC IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/00 6:19:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, > KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: > << > I may be deluded but it has always been my understanding that a true > Republican, one who sticks to the original idealogy, is someone who > staunchly believes in individual rights to live your life the way you > choose. I think the original Republicans were more like the Libertarians of > today. >> > > If what you say were true, I doubt that Republican President Abraham Lincoln > would have gone to war to preserve the Union, and instead would have favored > the rights of states and their citizens to "live the life the way they > choose." Exactly, Paul. The "Republicans" of Lincoln's time were closer in philosophy to today's Democrats in believing in the importance of the Republic over the rights of individual States. So yes, if Lincoln was a modern-day Republican he would not have tried to unify the country, but would have allowed each state to do as it wished. The Libertarian Party is relatively new, I think, with its emphasis on each individual being able to do exactly as she/he wishes. In earlier years, there was more of a sense of community, whether that community was a local one or the entire country. People literally could not survive without the support of a community. The sense of that is lost nowadays it seems. The Republican Party started around the time of the Civil War and evolved, again it's an "I think", from the Democratic-Republican Party of the time. There were also a lot of Democrats in the South then and through the 1960s who were similar to today's Republicans in stressing the importance of state government over the federal government. I don't know how the switch in basic philosophy between the two parties occurred. Because currently Republicans believe that state government should supersede federal government (ideally, all the time), they have stretched that to giving the impression that only they believe in "individual rights", but that's just rhetoric on their part. An American's rights are guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They are not the province of any particular party. With an emphasis on State/local government control, though, it does mean they tend to have a laissez faire attitude toward business, so Wall Street usually likes the Republican party, although since there's been a recession in the second year of every Republican President's term since Warren Harding in the early 20s, it's a mystery to me as to why there is such affection. Another way the difference in the philosophies have played out is by the Southern states insisting on the primacy of States' rights, which resulted in segregation lasting as long as it did. The white majority in those States insisted on "living the life they chose" during the time of the Civil War and for more than a hundred years following it, and hid such evil behavior behind the banner of States' rights. So I'm a little leery when people spend so much time being concerned about States' rights, especially now when there's such quick communication throughout the country. Makes me wonder what those folks are up to. At the same time, Federal programs can become so cumbersome they're of no use, so a Federal government solution is not always the answer either. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:14:28 -0800 (PST) From: Penny Subject: Re: Ballot stuff (NJC) Kakki wrote: But I'm curious - I heard the other day that people in Oregon all vote by mail (and that's the reason given as to why it took longer than most other states to tally the results). If you vote by mail, do you still punch out holes in the ballot? I assumed you marked off the choices another way.>> Kakki, I don't live in Oregon myself, but directly across the Columbia river, the state border between OR and WA, in Vancouver WA. (I voted, by machine, in a booth, at the polling place in Vanc WA where I'm registered.) But since we're in the Portland / Vanc. metro area our news, radio and television is predominantly from Portland. It was a Portland station and mostly Oregon residents, I was listening yesterday, and relaying that conversation. Cathy, down in Seaside OR might be able to answer your specific questions though. But to answer one of your questions, I do believe, Oregon officials, knowing that state's count was going to be very close, didn't want to jump the gun and retract anything later so held off on announcing anything until they were certain. Good for them! Oregon officials did give Oregon to Gore late-ish yesterday though. Haven't seen CNN report that yet. <> Kakki, I haven't heard anyone from West Palm interviewed say that they tried to correct their double punches by circling or underlining or whatever either. My point was in relaying from her experinces, the woman who used to count ballots thrown out of the computers from machine ballot process in the state of Oregon said they always found on a portion of "over vote" ballots, some attempt on the part of some voters to make their choice known when the ballots were actually hand counted. From her experience she expected some of the same attempts to show voters desire to be found on the "over vote" ballots in hand counts in Florida. I think the ballots they're going through now with the hand count in Florida are the "under vote" ballots - the ballots where no vote registered via machine count. Anyone know for sure? From what I've gathered, they haven't touched the "over votes" - ones kicked from the system for being punched twice. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But did you catch the interview today on CNN of the woman (btw Marcel, with graduate degrees) in West Palm, that complained to several personel at the polling place she was voting because her voting machine did not line up her ballot properly? She was properly allowed to discard her inital ballot after she realized she had voted for Buchanan rather than her real choice of Gore in that first voting booth. On her second try to vote, she used a different machine and the ballot lined up properly, arrows to the correct punch hole - no problem. The first machine lined up directly between the second and third hole...and initially this well educated woman had *guessed* wrong too. She tried to get them to discontinue use of that machine, but wasn't given an ear by any in charge at that voting location. After leaving she said she tried, and continued to try throughout the day, to contact her district's voting office but could never get through, because of constant busy signals, to get that booth taken out of opperation. Is it true in Florida you only have five minutes to vote? If so, there's possibly 150 of the bad ballots through that machine alone. Geez, what a shame all this has become. The college football games I've been watching today haven't included as many hits on their opponent as I've been witnessing on CNN. Penny __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:15:58 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Shhhhh!!!! (NJC) > Clark wrote: > "Personally, I think people on this list should stop calling Bush a moron. > He's an idiot. Or rather, a fucking idiot. " > > > CLARK! > > Please! Marcel will hear you and his feelings will be hurt. He's got Bush > up there with the Second Coming. > > Paz > I heard Marcel was going to move to New York to be close to his favorite senator elect. ;-) (sorry, couldn't resist) Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:23:20 -0800 (PST) From: Penny Subject: Re: N - JC reminder Mark reminded: >Please remember to use the NJC tag in your >subject line if your post doesn't pertain to >anything Joni. This includes the Florida >recount ordeal. My bad - I'm sorry for the one I screwed up not labeling correctly - please forgive me Mark and all. Penny __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:39:53 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: For Paul/Republicans (NJC) Kakki wrote: > Paul wrote: > > > If what you say were true, I doubt that Republican President >Abraham > Lincoln would have gone to war to preserve the >Union, and instead would > have favored the rights of states >and their citizens to "live the life the > way they choose." > > I see him as completely following Republican ideology by fighting to put an > end to slavery once and for all. U.S. citizens were denying rights to fellow > U.S. citizens in the South. The slaveowners' "rights" were illegal under > U.S. law from the beginning. No, modern-day Republicans believe in the importance of States' rights above all, and that's a turnaround in philosophy from Lincoln's time. Then, the name Republican literally came from the "Republic", meaning the entire country. It used to bug me a lot when the followers of Reagan or Bush Sr. bragged about being in the party of Lincoln. Same name, but completely different philosophies. Reagan or Bush, if they're being "pure" Republicans, would never step in and dictate to a State about anything, including ending slavery or segregation. They would agree with the white Southerners that US law is superseded by each State's laws. States' rights versus the federal government is the main difference between the ideologies of today's two main parties, and it plays itself out in many different ways. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:36:46 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: For Paul/Republicans (NJC) Debra wrote: > It used to bug me a lot when the followers of Reagan or Bush Sr. bragged about > being in the party of Lincoln. Same name, but completely different > philosophies. Reagan or Bush, if they're being "pure" Republicans, would never > step in and dictate to a State about anything, including ending slavery or > segregation. They would agree with the white Southerners that US law is > superseded by each State's laws. You are spinning my original comments. All I inferred was that Lincoln was a good example of a "pure" Republican. I also went on to say that the parties' idealogy/philosophy has been perverted from its original over time. So we are saying the same thing in this regard - so why spin my comments? > States' rights versus the federal government is the main difference between the > ideologies of today's two main parties, and it plays itself out in many > different ways. I don't believe this is accurate.. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:08:22 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Ballot stuff (NJC) Thanks for clarifying, Penny. > I think the ballots they're going through now with the hand >count in Florida are the "under vote" ballots - the ballots >where no vote registered via machine count. Anyone know >for sure? It's my understanding, but I could be wrong, that they are doing a complete second recount by hand of all ballots in certain Democratic districts. > But did you catch the interview today on CNN of the woman >(btw Marcel, with graduate degrees) in West Palm, that >complained to several personel at the polling place she was >voting because her voting machine did not line up her ballot >properly? To me it is looking more and more like this Florida situation is going to go on and on and end up in all kinds of endless litigation. I forsee a complete mess coming down the road that will make the initial issues pale in comparison. I'm starting to feel there is no solution at all at this point. We are rapidly heading toward long-term national gridlock. Kakki, maybe I'll go to Amsterdam or maybe I'll go to Rome... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:25:33 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Clinton (VLJC) In a message dated 11/11/00 11:22:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << Paul wrote: > Bit if I recall correctly, Joni's comments were critical of >Clinton's personality, not his politics or the way he was >doing his job as president. Paul, thank you for affirming that this article does exist and contains critical remarks of Joni towards Clinton. I disagree, however, that her critical remarks referred to his personality. I'd like to locate it again (if it hasn't been purged). I remember very well what she said (since it assured me that I was still O.K. to be on her discussion list) and it was all about his character. Kakki >> Personality/character, t'was meant to be the same. My point was that her criticism's were not about Clinton's abilities or performance as President, which has been pretty darn good these past eight years, regardless of his weaknesses or failures in what would be most people's "private" life. Some people may consider character as crucial in a president. In some other periods of history, it might have been more important, but in this era when America is the world's domiant power and econmoy, ability and performance as president is crucial, in my book. In those areas, Clinton has performed admirably. Paul I ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #597 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?