From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #594 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk VideoTree sign-up: http://www.jmdl.com/trading Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Saturday, November 11 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 594 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Sign up for VideoTree #2 now: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: (NJC) maybe I'll go to Amsterdam. maybe I'll go to Rome... ["Jim L'Ho] Re: Craziness, The election [Richard Goldman ] Re: Craziness (NJC) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] RE: NJC diamond heist ["Wally Kairuz" ] but... (politics) NJC [Yael Harlap ] Re: grace jones and long diverted rant on my day njc [jan gyn ] Re: craziness (NJC), USA election (LONG) (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Food of our childhoods NJC [susan+rick ] Re: Craziness, The election (md) (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] About those voters who all by themselves reported the ballot problem.(njc) [MDESTE1@aol.] Re: The List (NJC) [susan+rick ] Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Craziness (NJC), USA Election, Long ["Kakki" ] Morons NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Heading down to the action (NJC) ["Kakki" ] the rabbit died, don't tell PETA (njc) [evian ] Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) [jan gyn ] Vote! (njc) [Robert Holliston ] Re: the rabbit died, don't tell PETA (njc) [Vince Lavieri Subject: RE: (NJC) maybe I'll go to Amsterdam. maybe I'll go to Rome... Hi Lori, Welcome back! Well, gay marriage came up several times. I'm NOT saying it came up too often. I'm not flaming you, Lori. I'm just saying that the List reflects the interests of its members, who are, after all, unmoderated. Certianly gay issues came up more often than, say, the AIDS epidemic in Africa, the double edge in-fighting on the West Bank, or global warming, or even the Olympic Games. There are lots of gay and lesbian folks (and some who've crossed between the gay world and the straight one) and everyone discusses whatever they please, as it was intended. As I see it, it's not like JMDL had lots of child-bearing threads this past year either. It's not like I've seen hetrosexuality jammed down anyone's throat or even discussed that much. It's a warmer, fuzzy experience than that. More asexual and apolitical. I hope this is not a dangerous place to discuss issues dear to JMDLers. Let me turn the tables on you, if I may, Lori. Why do you feel threatened here? > Can you > please point me to the period(s) of time or the > digest(s) where a very open discussion of > HOMOsexuality took place? > > Lori, wondering > in DC Jim, near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:07:11 -0800 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Re: Craziness, The election David, I could not agree with you more. See the following letter below (which was dated the week before the general election last Tuesday), from a friend's sister at the University of Toledo in Ohio, regarding Mrs. Lynne Cheney, the wife of the Republican vice presidential candidate. May justice and reason prevail. Richard - ----- "As the presidential election approaches, we need to take a look also at Bush's vice presidential running mate, Dick Cheney...well not Dick, but his wife, Lynne. It has been strongly rumored that Lynne Cheney will get the spot of Secretary of Education in a Bush administration. Although she has been very low key during this campaign, this woman is anything but low key. In 1986, Reagan appointed her to head the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH). While at the NEH, she campaigned against anything she considered to be "liberal". One of her first campaigns was aimed at the PBS series called "The Africans", because she said the program was "propaganda" in that it described Africa's historic problems as a result of European exploitation. She insisted on having the NEH's name removed in the credits and refused funding for publicity of the series. At the NEH, she criticized colleges and universities for moving away from traditional Western Civilization courses toward global history and culture. She argued that the American experience is the high point of world history. She also attempted to stack the NEH's advisory panel with right wingers, including Carol Iannone, a woman who had written an article in the conservative Commentary that stated that giving National Book Awards and Pulitzer Prizes to African American women writers like Toni Morrison and Alice Walker sacrificed "the demands of excellence to the democratic dictatorship of mediocrity." Fortunately, the Congress was not predominately Republican at the time, and despite a major lobbying effort on the part of Lynne Cheney, the appointment of Iannone was killed. After she left the NEH, she joined the conservative American Enterprise Institute, as well as became a board member of the defense contractor Lockheed Martin. She set out on campaign to get rid of the NEH, and successfully got rid of the National History Standards, published after she left the NEH with NEH funding. She maintained the standards were too much about women and minorities and not enough about white men. She said that Harriet Tubman was "mentioned six times" in the standards, while George Washington "makes only a fleeting appearance" and Thomas Edison gets no mention at all. In fact, the standards were the product of more than two years of meetings involving over 6,000 teachers, administrators, scholars, and parents, along with thirty-five organizations, ranging from the American Association of School Librarians to the National Council for the Social Studies. In truth, white males are mentioned on every page of the standards. This is just the tip of the iceberg about this woman. She has openly spoken out against gays and lesbians, and against equal protection of the laws for hem. Yet, her own daughter is openly living a lesbian lifestyle. {I don't know what that says about her relationship with her daughter, perhaps that she holds her personal philosophy about gays more dearly than her child}. I say this woman is dangerous, and if our knowledge of Bush and Cheney isn't enough to make us understand that we must get out the vote for Al Gore and Joe Lieberman, then let's do it to stop this woman from impacting further on the political scene!" Christine Fox, Ph.D. Educational Research and Measurement College of Education The University of Toledo ----------------------------------------------------------------- office hours for Fall Semester: M: 4-5:30 W: 10-12, 4-5:30 phone: 419-530-2473, 4302 ============= >Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:01:59 -0800 (PST) >From: davidpaulmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) >Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election > >Hey List -- > >As Seal says, "we're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy." >I think it's telling that the last time we had such a close race was >'60, just before a profound shift in our nation's consciousness. I >believe that within the present turmoil are the seeds of a new America, >though I don't pretend to know what it will look like. > >On another note, Carlton posted about the Reagan era and AIDS, and as >someone who lived through that initial crisis on the front lines in NYC, >I can tell you that the threat we felt was very real. C. Everett Koop >has stated that the reason Reagan failed to respond to the crisis was >not homophobia, but "a hatred of gay people at the highest level" (i.e. >Reagan & co.). It's important to realize that for many who vote, the >question of who is in office may literally be a life or death issue. >Personally, I feel that Gore and his camp should fight Bush with every >legal means at their disposal. > >David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 03:33:30 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) Hi Debra, I respect your opinion but I disagree. The fact that they have thrown out thousands of ballots in the past shows that they have established a legal precedence for accepting the butterfly ballot (the so-called illegal ballot) and shows a legal precedence for disregarding the confusion. I'm not a lawyer, but this history hurts the dems' case, in my opinion and shows that this situation _can_ be compared to something that happened before. Again, I'm not flaming you, but I respectfully disagree. Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: > i just heard that there were 15,000 spoiled ballots in palm beach in the 96 > election with a lower turn out. Debra Shea said, That's a correct report, but in 1996 it didn't matter because there was a huge difference in the number of votes for each candidate. There was a clear winner then, whether those 15,000 votes were counted in or not. With a difference now of only hundreds of votes, each particular vote becomes incredibly important. This situation can't be compared to anything that has happened before. "There is nothing new under the sun." I just made that up!! Isn't that cool?! :) Jim Lamadoo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:02:58 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: NJC diamond heist oh my god!!!! i'm shrieking!! colin, you are so funny! wally - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de catman Enviado el: Viernes, 10 de Noviembre de 2000 08:12 p.m. Para: joni Asunto: NJC diamond heist Did you hear about the worlds largest diamond snatch? Liz Hurley just had her clitoris pierced!' - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:37:22 -0500 From: Yael Harlap Subject: but... (politics) NJC Anne wrote: >I looked at how many people voted in each state, then divided that number by >the number of electoral votes to find out how many people each delegate to >the Electoral College actually represents. So, in the District of Columbia, >a delegade represents 63,233 votes in this election. In Minnesota, on the >other hand, a delegate represents 243,910 votes. So, if you voted in D.C., >your vote counts almost four times as much as if you voted in Minnesota. I don't know if that is a fair calculation... though it is interesting... What if you recalculated in terms of how many *eligible* voters there are... and what if you removed two electoral votes per state before doing the calculation as well, since every state has an extra two delegates tacked on to represent the 2 senators... which is why people argue for keeping the electoral college, since it gives small states more representation. Just as a note, I don't really favor keeping the electoral college. At least if it is kept, all states should relinquish winner-take-all voting. What if each state's popular vote was simply approportioned among electorates - not according to district, because there can always be politicking (districts redrawn, etc) but based on pure percentages of popular vote. And - NOTE: I am neither a Bush nor a Gore supporter - I think it is totally unbelievable that Bush supporters and the Bush camp are willing to forego the political representations of 20,000 voters for their own political convenience. Mistakes always happen in an election, and it would be lovely if we could a) prevent them and b) amend them, but usually we don't know what the mistakes are. Here we know that a large number of votes were in error, and we know why. The 3000+ votes for Buchanan make a very very strong case, statistically speaking (http://madison.hss.cmu.edu/ for stats analyses on this issue, explained for lay people). If we KNOW that a large number of votes are in error, isn't the onus on us as a country to do something about it? No matter how moronic onemight think those Floridians were for fucking up their ballots after those ballots were available for viewing prior to the election, does that mean they don't deserve political representation? And we have the gall to call this a democracy. - -Yael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:48:59 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: grace jones and long diverted rant on my day njc (snip) >Ok, so anyway... lol, what was I saying... oh yeah... Grace Jones... had >a huge crush on her back in the day, except when I really think about >it, she pretty much scared the bejesus out of me! >Evian I saw GJ during her 'Nightclubbing' tour. She came on stage dressed as a gorilla, head and all, banging a little drum. When she hit the spotlight, she removed her gorilla head, and a huge shadow of her uniquely styled 'pencil' head filled the back screen, and the entire audience howled like dogs. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:44:37 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) (snip) >> Debra, do you seriously believe this? Just on this list alone, not only in >> the past few weeks, but over time, I have read many people call Bush a >> "moron", "uneducated" (despite an MBA from Harward), a "scary" person who >> "will take away all our rights" and "destroy the country" and so on. >> Haven't you read these posts, too? Why should it be surprising to find a majority of anti Bush sentiment on this, the 'joni mitchell' list? (snip) >Saying I think Bush is a moron who is not intelligent or experienced enough to >lead this country is one thing, and it might offend people. So.... tell me >differently. Show me why I'm wrong. I'm being specific enough that it's >something that can be discussed. No matter how persuasive you are, I may never >agree, but will always believe it's your right to think as you do. (snip) >Debra Shea WORD. Bush IS a moron. (As is Gore, if that's what you believe.) I think your arguments are fine. Follow your heart and let your arrows fly! - -jan (who's still pissed that Hinkley was such a poor shot) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:45:16 -0800 From: Steven Barton Subject: Re: WHAT DISCS TO BUY NEXT What to buy next: Hijera ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:54:46 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: craziness (NJC), USA election (LONG) (md) In a message dated 11/10/00 4:39:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, jlamadoo@home.com writes: << In my opinion, what may change the validity of the election in Florida is the fact that Florida law refers to the hole that is to the RIGHT of the candidate's name. While I hate the idea of altering the process, I think that the Dems have a point when they say that butterfly ballots are therefore "illegal" in Florida. I think that this is an important point, technicality or not. Let's give them their day in court. Let's let the courts in Florida decide whether or not it is an illegal ballot. >> As usual the law being cited by the democrats that makes the ballot "illegal" is a canard. The "on the right" issue is a statute that applies to ballots not part of an electrical tabulation process. Clearly these are being counted electronically. So as usual the Demos are obfuscating the issue with fabricated assertions that they know are invalid. It is just this kind of tactic that they use to try to parse their way out of every illegal act they have committed from withholding evidence to lying under oath. They fabricate an issue and then with the help of their lapdog media try to twist the argument. Historical precedent is absolute on this sort of objection. tainted ballots are thrown out. period. By the way so far the only judge to rule in the favor of the Dems is a significant campaign contributor married to a Demo operative who refused to recuse herself. So much for blind justice. Jeb Bush has but a judge refuses. they are stalling for time hopefully to stretch things out long enough to deliver another "lock box" of bogus votes. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:58:42 -0800 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: Food of our childhoods NJC Wally wrote > you don't know how much i'm enjoying this thread! it's so amazing to read > what and how people eat/ate. it's such an anthropological journey! i would > like to hear from people in australia and new zealand too! what's their food > heritage? I agree, Wally. Mention of food of any kind is enough to get me involved in a discussion at the drop of a fork. My parents were of Croatian heritage and we grew up in southern Ontario between Toronto and Buffalo, New York. My mother had a huge repertoire of recipes but the ones that are foremost in my memory are those she learned from her mother. These were Croatian in origin and their simplicity was indicative of the fact that she grew up dirt poor. Our absolute favourite was perogies (which we pronounced in a Croatian manner which I can't spell.) She made them by hand with a simple filling of mashed potatoes and cheddar cheese, served with fried onions and sour cream. Her cabbage rolls contained only rice and sliced bacon with a plain tomato sauce on top but I rate them higher than any I've ever had since. A dish I still make to this day is what we called String Bean Soup, made at the height of harvest season with wax and green beans, potatoes, carrots, tomatoes, peas, and a roux of butter and flour cooked till it was as dark as chocolate. Of course there were things she made that I refused to eat, such as jellied pig's feet and dough fried in goose grease but fortunately these did not appear frequently. One truly Canadian dish that is something like a gourmet's nightmare comes from Quebec. Called poutine, it consists of french fries covered with gravy and topped with cheese curds. If your arteries can stand the overload it is a wonderfully satisfying but guilt-producing meal. Yum, yum, I think I'll start supper now Salivatingly Ranger Rick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:01:27 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Craziness, The election (md) (NJC) In a message dated 11/10/00 5:19:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, richard2sf@earthlink.net writes: << I say this woman is dangerous, and if our knowledge of Bush and Cheney isn't enough to make us understand that we must get out the vote for Al Gore and Joe Lieberman, then let's do it to stop this woman from impacting further on the political scene!" Christine Fox, Ph.D. Educational Research and Measurement College of Education The University of Toledo >> When you start calling people "dangerous" you reveal how either parnoid you are or you need to have real evidence as opposed to the diminishment of federal funding for junk -science political organizations masquerading as serious science reasearch organizations being reduced. This is yet another of those vicious attacks that liberals claim all the time only the conservatives make. Hillary can commit real crimes and coverups and shes treated like Joan of Arc. Lynn Cheney who has actually run a governmental department is "dangerous". Exhibit A, the looney left. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:21:04 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: About those voters who all by themselves reported the ballot problem.(njc) Dems Call Fla. Voters About Ballots By John Solomon Associated Press Writer Friday, Nov. 10, 2000; 9:39 p.m. EST WASHINGTON –– Faced with a cliffhanger election, the Democratic Party directed a telemarketing firm on Election Night to begin calling thousands of voters in Palm Beach, Fla., to raise questions about a disputed ballot and urge them to contact local election officials. The Democratic National Committee paid Texas-based TeleQuest to make the calls Tuesday night – while polls were still open – alerting voters in the heavily Democratic enclave in Florida of possible confusion with the ballots they cast. "Some voters have encountered a problem today with punch card ballots in Palm Beach County," the script for the call said. "These voters have said that they believe that they accidentally punched the wrong hole for the incorrect candidate." "If you have already voted and think you may have punched the wrong hole for the incorrect candidate, you should return to the polls and request that the election officials write down your name so that this problem can be fixed," the script said. The firm took the names and numbers of voters who said they may have cast an errant ballot, providing the Democratic Party a list of about 2,400 voters in the county who thought they may have misvoted. If voters were about to go to the polls, the script called for the caller to instruct them to "be sure to punch Number 5 for Gore-Lieberman" and "do NOT punch any other number as you might end up voting for someone else by mistake." Democratic National Committee spokeswoman Jenny Backus said the party had been making traditional get-out-the-vote calls all over the country Tuesday, but shifted gears in Palm Beach after hearing local news reports about possible voter confusion. "Once we were informed by local news accounts of the magnitude of the problem with confusion about the ballot, we shifted our scripts to make sure that people who were voting were aware of the questions and confusion around the ballot," she said. The maneuver indicates that long before Americans awoke to the reality of the Florida ballot dispute, Democrats were already mobilizing voters there. The concern has focused on Palm Beach, where 19,000 ballots were disqualified and hundreds of voters have said they mistakenly voted for Patrick Buchanan while trying to vote for Gore. Within hours of the phone campaign, hundreds of Democratic voters had called election officials in Palm Beach to complain they may have been confused by the ballot and voted for the wrong candidate. Some Palm Beach County voters have filed lawsuits seeking a new vote. The outcome of the dispute is key because George W. Bush is leading Gore by a mere 327 votes after a statewide recount. The winner of Florida will lay claim to the electoral votes needed to become the nation's 43rd president. The calls indicate that Democrats were concerned about Palm Beach problems even before they knew Florida's vote would end in a razor-thin margin, said American University political science professor Candice Nelson. "To the extent there have been accusations that Democrats didn't cry foul until they realized Wednesday that Bush may have won, this cuts the other way," she said. Nelson and other political and legal experts said the calls were perfectly legal but could have contributed to what appeared to most Americans to be a spontaneous explosion of concern in Florida the morning after the election. "I think those kinds of calls make perfect sense," Nelson said. "In terms of people getting riled up, it would be a tactic that might energize voters who might otherwise not have realized they may have mistakenly voted for the wrong candidate." One Florida Democrat said Republicans would take similar action had the tables been turned. "They'd be fighting this thing tooth and nail for months and months," said Wayne Brewer, 45, of Juneau, Fla. "They knew they ... lost, and now they want to win on an assumption," he said, speaking outside the government center in West Palm Beach. Wade Scott, an account manager with TeleQuest, said Democratic Party officials contacted his company shortly before 6 p.m. EST Tuesday to make the calls. With only an hour to go before Florida polls closed, his company mobilized all of its telemarketers to make some 5,000 calls in less than 45 minutes, Scott said. "It was a very short burst of calling for our industry," Scott said. He said only about 100 of the voters in Palm Beach it contacted hadn't voted, and about 2,400 felt they may have made a mistake on the ballot. © Copyright 2000 The Associated Press ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:54:28 -0800 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: The List (NJC) Eric Wilcox asks: > Why is it that the JMDL sticks to the antiquated listerserv type e-mail > list? Antiquated? I guess so, if you consider family, friends and a feeling like being home to be antiquated. Ranger Rick np: Linda Ronstadt, Blue Bayou (sigh) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:03:04 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) Debra and Jan, I'm not saying you don't have a right to call Bush a moron. I was just looking askance at the statement that the Democrats never say anything mean. > Why should it be surprising to find a majority of anti Bush >sentiment on this, the 'joni mitchell' list? I never said I was surprised. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:13:10 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Illinois NJC Vince wrote: > I have seen the 1960 election and my native state of Illinois >referred to in here and in media as a state that was >somehow stolen. People think it is ironic that Bill Daley, >son of the late Mayor Richard J Daley, is involved in this >election. Vince, if you are referring to my posts, please go back and re-read them. I said it was ironic that Bill Daley was going on and on the other day about the butterfly ballot when in fact, the same kind of ballot was used in his home district (as repoterd yesterday on NPR) That's all I said about irony. > It was the one time that Daley didn't resort to the usual >tactics. The reality was that Daley released something like 95% of the Chicago vote as quickly as possible. In a previous post I was speaking to Michael's seeming to lump together the proven voter fraud in 1960 in Chicago with the current situation in Florida. That's all. I certainly was not trying to bring up something that happened 40 years ago as an issue today. You know me, Vince, I live mostly in a world of lawyers who tend to look at every word. Just caught my eye to see the two situations apparently linked in Michael's post. But I know Michael, too, and truly don't think he meant to spin anything - it just caught my eye. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:28:53 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) > Saying I think Bush is a moron who is not intelligent or >experienced enough to lead this country is one thing, and it >might offend people. So.... tell me differently. Show me why >I'm wrong. I'm being specific enough that it's > something that can be discussed. No matter how >persuasive you are, I may never agree, but will always >believe it's your right to think as you do. Debra, you haven't been specific at all for any response from me. I'm not interested in telling someone how wrong and evil they are for thinking the way they do politically. I firmly believe in the good that can be done by both of the two major political parties. I'm not interested in a one-party country, nor political apartheid. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:03:24 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Precedent/Levels NJC Not so, Jim. Precedent can always overturned if it is bad precedent. That is how Brown v Boartd of Education was decided. The fact the segregation happened before didn't make it right. Something that happened before does not give legal standing if it was wrong. The questiuon that I am guessing the Florida circuit court will address is: how significant is this. Does this instance of 19,000 spoiled votes out of whatever number were cast in that county, given the impact of the votes since Florida right now is only 327 votes Bush over Gore, and that has a direct impact on the next president of the US, rise to the level of signifcance that the court will order a remedy? Obviously 19 votes or 190 invalidated ballots would normally be not of the level to have a significant impact. This 19,000, given the circumstances, the judge will have to rule on: does this rise to a level for the court to take action? Remember a few years ago the Florida court threw out the Miami mayoral election and they had a re-vote because the corruption was so significant. In my personal opinion, a re-vote here is required, 19,000 invalidated ballots appears to me to rise to the level of the court taking action. But the decision is not mine. However this turns out, the court will rule on the issue of does rise to a level that the court must take action. (the Rev) Vince, for whom a recount would do no good, I just plain lost my election on Tuesday. Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Hi Debra, > I respect your opinion but I disagree. The fact that they have thrown out > thousands of ballots in the past shows that they have established a legal > precedence for accepting the butterfly ballot (the so-called illegal ballot) > and shows a legal precedence for disregarding the confusion. I'm not a > lawyer, but this history hurts the dems' case, in my opinion and shows that > this situation _can_ be compared to something that happened before. > > Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: > > > i just heard that there were 15,000 spoiled ballots in palm beach in the > 96 > > election with a lower turn out. > > Debra Shea said, > That's a correct report, but in 1996 it didn't matter because there was a > huge > difference in the number of votes for each candidate. There was a clear > winner > then, whether those 15,000 votes were counted in or not. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:45:27 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC), USA Election, Long Jim asked me: > Okay, I do understand that the Electoral College has its >roots deep in the Republic tradition as the Framers intended >but, as I remember my Philosophy of American Political >Thought class, we are also informed by the Democratic > tradition which values the 'one vote' viewpoint. What I always understood from what I was taught in school growing up here is that we are a hybrid. They definitely wanted the people to be free to live their lives as they wished ("the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) but they didn't want the country to be a pure democracy because, in their view, total democracies usually end up in chaos or mob rule. They also did not want a strong central government, where power could be abused like in some of the repressive systems they lived in before coming to America, so they made the country a republic of semi-independent states. It's all a balancing act so that no one entity holds all the power. I agree with their wisdom completely and think that our current system, while it may be imperfect, is still the best one to ensure those rights. It maybe could stand some tweaking here and there but basically we should mess with it too much, or be very careful if we do. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:04:24 -0800 (PST) From: Penny Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) I, too, was listening to talk radio discussion about this whole election mess. While listening, a caller asked one of the same questions I've been wondering about. "When a ballot gets tossed for being invalid from two selections in the same catagory, does that void that persons ballot entirely or just for the vote in that particular section of their ballot?" (Frankly, the thought of their entire ballot's choices being not cared about, pissed me off about Bush's PR people's attitudes - they were confused so, tough nails! - as much as it did about the GOP trying so hard to dismiss those being counted because they probably wouldn't favor Bush.) A next caller happened to be a woman who used to work in the vote tabulating process here in Portland before they had gone to strictly vote by mail. Now this is just Oregon, and who's to say it's the same thing in Florida, but she reassured the listeners that when those ballots were kicked out for double punches, the rest of their votes were then tabulated by hand for the other measures and races. GOOD! But an interesting thing she also said (that maybe applies the the West Palm mess) was when these got kicked out and they were going over them by hand, often the case was that they found one of the two "double punches" circled or underlined, seeing that the voter tried to rectify the error they were aware they made, quietly at the booth themselves rather than going to ask for help or a new ballot. IMHO, it wouldn't surprize me if many of these older voters in West Palm didn't like the thought of asking for help for one reason or another....the lines were long, some people lose the self-confidence over the years that it takes to ask for help, by many accounts alot of the people at the voting stations weren't all that *helpful* anyway, etc. But this Oregon women said when they see that attempt to make their choice known on their ballot, they DO give them the vote they had tried to cast....at least that's what they do in Oregon. (BTW, she said no pencils were allowed in the area of where the votes were tabulated - only red markers) So, I wonder if some of this is the reason the Gore camp has asked that West Palm be recounted by hand? There's been many a good point made on the list in the last few days about this election. Thanks all for sharing. Penny __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:21:35 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Morons NJC What I learned in years of Biblical Greek: the word "moron" comes from the Greek word "moron" which means "moron." The most common use of the word, other than as in, "So and so is a moron," is in the word "sophomore" which combines the words for wisdom, sophia, with the word, moron, and combined is not complimentary, kind of implying arrorant dummies who think because they know a little that they know a lot. I don't know that I would call Bush a moron, as he has a certaiu functional capability equal to the average smart ass frat boy. I have long ago gotten tired of his smirky little sneer. I have an intense visceral dislike of the man and his whiny ways. This election reveals that 1/2 of the electorate feels something like I do. 1/2 of the electorate feels somewhat the opposite. The best solution was given by David Letterman: Gore is not president, Bush is not president, can't we just leave it at that? Since we can't, I reflect that no matter how this turns out, Gore did win the popular vote. If the frat boy gets in, he will never be able to unite his country with his comments that millions of people will be happy he is president. He should have the humility to recognise that he lost the popular vote and his bragging on himself is not proper for a person who may win the presidency while finishing second in the popular vote. (the Rev) Vince PS Kakki, LOL on the response below! Kakki wrote: > Debra and Jan, > > I'm not saying you don't have a right to call Bush a moron. I was just > looking askance at the statement that the Democrats never say anything mean. > > > Why should it be surprising to find a majority of anti Bush >sentiment on > this, the 'joni mitchell' list? > > I never said I was surprised. > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:58:17 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Heading down to the action (NJC) oops > It maybe could stand some tweaking here and > there but basically we should mess with it too much, or be >very careful if we do. Of course I meant to say we "shoudn't mess with it too much". It's been a long day - but hey, I'm getting an all expenses paid (business) trip next week to none other than Tampa, FLORIDA! ;-) Had a time trying to get a flight out - sounds like the whole world is descending on the place. I'm sure there will be a nice mini-economic boom from all the people flocking in to cover events. (Hi Jimmy and Jerry ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:20:55 -0600 From: evian Subject: the rabbit died, don't tell PETA (njc) Evenin' folks, Well, before Ashara shoots me for not telling the list, just thought I would inform y'all if anyone cares that in May, we are having a baby! We've known since the end of August, but haven't really told that many people until now. Of course, I had to tell Ashara on the phone at Jonifest, and so she's been dying for me to tell everyone on the list -- so there, darlin', I did it :) Anyway, tried to clean out my closet, which is in what was once called "a spare bedroom" but is now called "the baby's room" and since I am a compulsive clothes buyer, I have stuff EVERYWHERE all over the upstairs, and now I am sitting here in this ungodly mess, and frankly, it isn't even bothering me anymore, and so I thought I'd finally post this news! Good Lord.... me as someone's father.... that's kinda a scary thought if you really think about it! Happy weekend! Evian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:38:59 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) At 09:03 PM 11/10/00 -0800, Kakki wrote: >Debra and Jan, > >I'm not saying you don't have a right to call Bush a moron. I was just >looking askance at the statement that the Democrats never say anything mean. (snip) >Kakki I think the Demos may say things 'mean', but they're not as misogynistically or homophobically vicious about it (must be a testosterone thing). - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:46:44 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: but... (politics) NJC Yael Harlap wrote the most wise thing: > AAnd - NOTE: I am neither a Bush nor a Gore supporter - I think it is > totally unbelievable that Bush supporters and the Bush camp are willing to > forego the political representations of 20,000 voters for their own > political convenience. Mistakes always happen in an election, and it would > be lovely if we could a) prevent them and b) amend them, but usually we > don't know what the mistakes are. Here we know that a large number of votes > were in error, and we know why. The 3000+ votes for Buchanan make a very > very strong case, statistically speaking (http://madison.hss.cmu.edu/ for > stats analyses on this issue, explained for lay people). If we KNOW that a > large number of votes are in error, isn't the onus on us as a country to do > something about it? No matter how moronic onemight think those Floridians > were for fucking up their ballots after those ballots were available for > viewing prior to the election, does that mean they don't deserve political > representation? > > And we have the gall to call this a democracy. > > - As I write this, CNN is announcing that Bush is planning to sue to stop recounts. That is the stupidist political move he can make. If he embraces democracy, he should welcome all recounts. That he wants to have an injunction against recounts seems to indicate that he and the governor of Florida, his brother, might know something they don't want us to find out. Embrace the recounts and get them done accurately and fairly, revote in the one county that needs it. People with nothing to hide or fear don't seek these types of injunctions. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:27:28 -0800 From: Robert Holliston Subject: Vote! (njc) Hey, everyone! It has been fascinating to follow the various U.S. election threads - also informative. The main thing I've learned from it is that we must all vote! Remember that people throughout history have been prepared to give their lives for the right to be heard and to elect their leaders. Remember that while the democratic process may have its flaws (and what system of government doesn't?) it is, in the context of human history, a young concept. Give it time! We have an upcoming federal election in Canada later this month. It will not stir up much debate on the JMDL ;-) But I've become convinced during the past few days, as never before, that to abstain from voting is to relinquish your right to complain. That's all - I'm not all that comfortable being on a soapbox. As a Canadian who is not really happy with any of the choices, I'm still gonna drag my sorry old ass down to the polling booth....... cheers to all, Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:57:29 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: the rabbit died, don't tell PETA (njc) Evian, I read the title and I thought we were talking about a scene from "Fatal Attraction." :-) But this is wonderful news and after we pummel you for keeping it a secret for so long, we all join in in congratulating you on the good tidings! You will be a wonderful father, too, and just think, in 16 years, the kid will be driving! May we all restrain from suggesting names for the kid; you and wife do your thing without our advice (as if you haven't already!) but you got to let us all be aunts and/or uncles (depending on our personal preferences)! My best wishes! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #594 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?