From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #592 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk VideoTree sign-up: http://www.jmdl.com/trading Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com JMDL Digest Friday, November 10 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 592 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. Sign up for VideoTree #2 now: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: grace jones and long diverted rant on my day njc [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Great idea (NJC) ["Kakki" ] RE: Craziness NJC [john low ] RE: Craziness (NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] WHAT DISCS TO BUY NEXT ["John Stilwell" ] Re: grace jones and long diverted rant on my day njc [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Craziness NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: WHAT DISCS TO BUY NEXT [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] oops -Re: grace jones and long diverted rant on my day njc [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: WHAT DISCS TO BUY NEXT [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) [MGVal@aol.com] WARNING: POLITICAL CONTENT, DELETE IF BORED... electoral college (NJC) [] Re: Food of our childhoods NJC (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] RE: craziness (NJC), USA election (LONG) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: WHAT DISCS TO BUY NEXT [Don Rowe ] Joni Free tape request [Rusty10113@aol.com] Re: Food of our childhoods NJC (md) [Don Rowe ] Re: Craziness (NJC) [Siresorrow@aol.com] warning: political content - more on electoral college (NJC) [Anne Sandst] Re: Craziness (NJC) [dsk ] Re: Craziness (NJC) [dsk ] Re: Craziness (NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] RE: Craziness (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) [dsk ] Spin (NJC) (was RE: Craziness, NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Re: Craziness/my mistake (NJC) [dsk ] Electoral college (NJC) [CarltonCT@AOL.Com] Re: Craziness (NJC) ["Susan" ] Re: grace jones and long diverted rant on my day njc [evian ] Re: Rock Stars and Requests(sjc) Long ["P. Henry" > I had a jones for Grace, too Evian! It wasn't "slave.." but "My Jamaican Guy" that rocked my world. She wore black Stiletto pumps and black widow vinyl for her highly styilized and choreographed minimalist performance art rendering of the song on, Carson, I think. It solidified her stature as the Amazon Queen of the artistic avant garde, undisputed, in my mind. That was the time I think she brought on her then toy boy, one Dolph Lundgren. It was classic TV for me. She's scary, sure, like a fox! Whatever happened to her? - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:21:19 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Great idea (NJC) Kate wrote: > call me a simple grrl but i think they oughta just split the >florida electoral votes & give each of the guys 1/2. don't you >think marcel? Hey Kate, I think you just came up with a great "alternate" Electoral College idea - if the candidates are within a hairbreaths percentage of each other - split it down the middle. This is the smartest thing I've heard in 3 days! I'd suggest we need more people like you in office, but I wouldn't wish that grief on you! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:5 +1000 From: john low Subject: RE: Craziness NJC Hey Jimmy, we all know you’ve got a great sense of humour and love the odd practical joke, but I think you’ve gone a bit far this time! Even to the outside observer it’s pretty clear that whatever you did to jam up the electoral works has got out of hand. Things is serious in the state of Florida!! John – thousands of kilometres away in Sydney. __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 06:38:12 -0500 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Craziness (NJC) If we are to be as > technically > and excruciatingly accurate as is being demanded down in Florida, "Excruciatingly accurate??!!!" There are always procedural inaccuracies and invalidated ballots in every election, but here we are talking about over 23,000 votes. And there is no question that those votes would have determined the outcome. Anyone out of kindergarten knows that had those votes been counted, Gore would have won Florida. People are not trying to be "excruciatingly accurate." People don't care much about technicalities, but they know and care when their vote is being pissed on. I stand by my comment that Bush is wiling to take office on a technicality, knowing that the officially counted Florida vote does not represent the real will of the people there. > See Michael, this is where I start to spin - the Dems in 1960 > benefited from *proven*, in a court of law, criminal fraud consisting of votes > from people who were dead and other ballot box stuffing (This was also was > explained to me by the esteemed NPR radio today). I heard the same NPR report, and the historian who talked about the 1960 election concluded by saying that the fraud in Chicago and Texas would not have affected the ultimate outcome, because it was Texas that put JFK over the top and he won there by too many votes to have beent the result of fraud. He also said the Republicans stole votes in southern Illinois! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:46:20 GMT From: "John Stilwell" Subject: WHAT DISCS TO BUY NEXT Greetings all: What Joni discs do you experts suggest next. After Blue (which is a masterpiece) and Hits (I love) What comes next? I'm looking to pick up two or three more! Thanks, John _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:55:42 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: grace jones and long diverted rant on my day njc Evian wrote: and Julius chimed in with: Both of those are great songs, but don't forget " Pull Up To The Bumper". She did have some great songs, and put on a hell of a show. I got to catch her a few times back in the late 70's and early 80's. She could always be scene at one of the gay clubs in Ft. Lauderdale, Miami or Key West. The bars would charge a $15 cover (a lot of money back then) and she would perform 3 songs. Oh what fun times!!!! I wonder where Grace is too! Sorry about your f**king couch Evian, but I can just picture you cussin up a storm now. LOL Jimmy NP: Grace Jones " On Your Knees" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:03:14 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Craziness NJC In a message dated 11/10/00 1:35:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, johncb@start.com.au writes: << Hey Jimmy, we all know you’ve got a great sense of humour and love the odd practical joke, but I think you’ve gone a bit far this time! Even to the outside observer it’s pretty clear that whatever you did to jam up the electoral works has got out of hand. Things is serious in the state of Florida!! John – thousands of kilometres away in Sydney. >> It's true John! I drove all over Florida just to mess up the works of the election process. Not only did I have different ballots in the different counties, I also placed different ballots within each voting booth :~) Actually us dumb bubba Floridians will do anything for world wide attention:~) Happy Friday Everyone! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:08:12 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: WHAT DISCS TO BUY NEXT <> This is an incredibly tough question!!! TWO or THREE?? You gotta get Hejira & HOSL, her masterworks, but you can't be without Court & Spark or For The Roses...Ladies of the Canyon has all those hits on it, Song To A Seagull is the most amazing debut, and all the great 90's stuff is still out there too! Turbulent Indigo, Night Ride Home, TTT...and to think of the ones I haven't even mentioned! Damn! Does Joni have the most amazing discography or what!! Bob NP: SRV, "Riviera Paradise" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:10:04 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: oops -Re: grace jones and long diverted rant on my day njc I hate when some of my text doesn't paste!!!! I was saying and Julius chimed in with: "I had a jones for Grace, too Evian! It wasn't "slave.." but "My Jamaican Guy" that rocked my world." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:12:40 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) ABC News: Percentage of Bush Voters who believe honesty is the most important reason to elect a candidate .............88% Percentage of Gore voters who believe honesty is the most important reason to elect a candidate .............16% That says it all. ABC and CNN and MSNBC all mentioned the same fact. Win or lose Bush has won more votes than Bill Clinton did in EITHER election. So tell me about "the peoples will". The ballots are the exact same ones we have used here in San Francisco for the last 8 years. Elected Clinton twice with those same ballots. No complaints until now about the "illegal" ballots. After seeing the ballots and how the hole they needed to push had a fricken big black arrow pointing to the hole directly next to the Candidates name I think I have to wonder how it is that Democrats reproduce. Maybe we need a new government entitlement program entitled "Free Stomach Arrow Tatoos for Democrats" to, you know, help them out. : <> marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:44:27 EST From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: WHAT DISCS TO BUY NEXT Well, there's For the Roses, Court and Spark, Miles of Aisles (Live) Hissing of Summer Lawns and Don Juan's Reckless Daughter if you want to go forward. Some of my favorites are Hejira, Shadows and Light(Live) and Night Ride Home. Gosh there are just so many to choose from. You're probably better off to buy them from CDNow.com. If you go there directly from the Jonimitchell.com, the homepage will get credit for your purchases. Just click on Shop on the left side of the index. Thanks, Rose in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:00:44 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) In a message dated 11/10/00 5:18:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << Elected Clinton twice with those same ballots. No complaints until now about the "illegal" ballots. After seeing the ballots and how the hole they needed to push had a fricken big black arrow pointing to the hole directly next to the Candidates name I think I have to wonder how it is that Democrats reproduce. >> You know, I don't think that this is fair. I bet that if Bush was trailing by those 300-odd votes and the Palm Beach ballots could sway things in his direction, you'd hear the same cries from the Republicans. I think that an interesting good in this whole election is that it has served to jolt the general public into more of an understanding of the election process, voting choices and responsibilities. I know that I've spent more time at work this week explaining the Electoral College and other civic subjects to my worker bees than the usual spiels on debits and credits. If it takes this to shock people out of voting and political apathy and make them more aware, that's great. MG - late for work, debating whether to go or not in the first place.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:23:31 -0500 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: WARNING: POLITICAL CONTENT, DELETE IF BORED... electoral college (NJC) There are three main reasons why I think the Electoral College method of voting for president should be abolished: 1. Because the current system can't keep up with population shifts, not everyone's vote counts equally. It's not 'one person-one vote.' It would be interesting to take the number of votes per state, the number of representatives at the Electoral College and see how much each individual's vote was actually worth. If I do this, I'll let you know what the results are. 2. Rather than the current state-run elections, I'd rather have this one election be a federal election, where uniform ballots were used throughout the country. 3. Now, candidates campaign according to state, with some states getting lots of attention and others being practically ignored. I believe a popular vote might result in more uniform information in terms of time and content being delivered by the candidates. And yet, I don't think the system will change for two reasons: 1. Power. (the current setup galvanizes the two-party system and neither party would be willing to compormise the stronghold they have on the process) 2. Money (it would be expensive to implement the changes) thanks for listening lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:46:21 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Food of our childhoods NJC (md) I have had the fortune to be born into an Italian family with an Irish Alsatian mother who loved to cook and learned everything my Italian grandmother cooked. The food dishes that will never be forgotten: 1) Caldone - egg battered sauteed artichoke hearts. 2) Irish turkey stuffing- bread and veggies and onions 3) Spare ribs Italienne 4) Moms cinnamon muffins topped with walnuts 5) Moms Tuna cassarole - off the charts 6) Lemon merringue pie with tiny slices of the lemon 7) From scratch raviolis filled with quail and pheasant 8) Any one of 10 things (risotto- angel hair etc) with THE 200 year old spaghetti sauce recipe 9) Mashed potatoes with red onions 10) the end piece of the roast beef with the broiled potatoes steeped in the roast juices marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:54:33 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: craziness (NJC), USA election (LONG) Lamadoo wrote: "The reality is that if a voter makes a mistake on a ballot, all he or she has to do is ask for help. It happens many times on every election day. The mis-marked ballot is destroyed and the voter is given another chance. It is completely cavalier and inappropriate to later whine, as I saw one elderly American do on TV news, "I don't know who I voted for! The ballot confused me!" That's hog-wash. Shame on the dems! "Reckless voters" is not a valid reason to annul an election. And thank G*d." The problem with this, Jim, is that many voters apparently did not *realize* they had made a mistake until they left the voting booth, got out into the parking lot, talked with their husbands or wives or children or friends, and it dawned on them that the ballot was not constructed as they had assumed it had been. By that time, it was all over: the vote was in, and official. No amount of "help" could take it back. And regarding "later whining": actually, a fair amount of complaining began on election day itself, about as soon as voters began entering and then leaving the booths. Voters called newspapers, TV stations, and election officials, resulting in an advisory being issued to West Palm Beach election workers later that afternoon *warning them* of the problem, and alerting them that some voters might experience that specific difficulty. However, by this time, many, many votes had been cast, including, perhaps, most or all of the 19,000 which were double-punched and would later be thrown out. I realize that the ballot had been approved by representatives of both major political parties, and the argument that the irregularity should stand because of that fact does have a certain strength. But ultimately, it boils down to whether the opinion of a party hack who likely did NOT see in the ballot the confusing construction that many voters did should be sufficient to invalidate the votes of the latter--which will determine the choice of Palm Beach County, which will determine the choice of Florida, which will determine the fate of the nation. The fact is, the confusion occurred, unforseen as it may have been by both Republicans and Democrats. What do we do now? What is fair? What is expiditious? What resolves this matter, finally and firmly? Like just about everyone else, I honestly don't know what the answer is. I do know that whoever ultimately wins this election will not have a popular mandate. However, if Bush is declared the winner, he will enjoy the advantage of a Republican House and, perhaps, a Republican Senate. And there will be the added cloud of uncertainty throughout his entire presidency that he did not truly win the popular vote in the state that provided the crucial electoral votes that sent him to the White House. Add to that the fact that his brother is governor of that state, which he promised many times to "deliver," and what you have is a recipe for the legitimacy of a Bush presidency to constantly be questioned over the next four years, in ways large and small, here and abroad. I don't subscribe to the raging Internet theories that Jeb Bush rigged the ballot box, etc., but in my profession, the mere APPEARANCE of impropriety is enough to preclude one from taking an action. The appearance of impropriety here is enough to choke a horse. I don't think anyone truly wants the practical result of that. I've heard much Republican "spin" in the last few days that we can't simply throw out an election just because we don't "like" the results. But with all due respect: wait just a minute. I didn't vote for Ronald Reagan, but when the American people spoke, I took a deep breath, accepted him as my president, and moved on. Ditto for W's father, George Herbert Walker Bush. But I was confident in those cases in the will of the people, who simply didn't happen to share the same opinions I did. I have no such confidence here. I do not require a result that I "like." I *do* require a result that accurately reflects the will of the American people, as filtered through the Electoral College system--which, like it or not, we are bound by until we amend the Constitution. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:22:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: (NJC) maybe I'll go to Amsterdam. maybe I'll go to Rome... Jim noted: > On the other hand, there have been some very open > discussions of sexuality this year including new > phrases (to me) like "Bear fodder" and offers of a > lady's uhm... affections for rent. No one > objected. No one. Admittedly, I've neglected reading quite a few digests this year, so I'm a little out of touch. Can you please point me to the period(s) of time or the digest(s) where a very open discussion of HOMOsexuality took place? Lori, wondering in DC __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:25:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: Top ten ways to solve the presidential election(NJC) Victor made some good suggestions! I like this one: > 4. Let Texas secede and take Bush with them. Lori, former resident of Texas, now in DC __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:30:20 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) In a message dated 11/10/00 6:44:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, messling@enter.net writes: << I stand by my comment that Bush is wiling to take office on a technicality, knowing that the officially counted Florida vote does not represent the real will of the people there. >> you know what was really interesting to me last night was dan rathers interviews with warren christopher and james baker. it went like this: d.r. to w.c. - if bush wins the recount, will you walk away and allow the thing to end? w.c. - well now...let me back away from that question for just a moment....the ballots used in florida were illegal..blah blah blah blah spin spin spin spin dr. to j.b. - if gore wins the recount, will you walk away and allow the thing to end? j.b. - yes, but we're going to win the recount. no blah blah blah, no spin spin spin. i actually think dan rather was trying to figure out what to do when someone answers a yes or no question with a yes or no. and i'm wondering how many thousands of people didn't vote on the panhandle of florida because it was announced that the state had gone to gore? i don't see that being talked about on this list. patrick np. peter gabriel and paula cole - kiss that frog ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:33:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) Kakki wrote: > The lawsuits have already been filed in Florida over > the "confusing" ballot asking for Palm Beach County > to be able to vote again. Hello? Seems like it would be a helluva lot easier and less time-consuming to go ahead and allow those who voted in Palm Beach County to recast their votes. Allow only those who voted on 11/7, whichi is easy enough to determine by the rolls (unless we learn there was ineptitude afoot when voters checked in). The county can print redesigned ballots, but there's no need. You can bet people will be educated and paying attention this time around. Afterwards, no excuses. Why not? Things can't get much stranger (or can they?) and it would resolve at least THAT issue once and for all. Lori in DC, wondering if anyone else has noticed the dilution of the gene pool ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:36:32 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: WHAT DISCS TO BUY NEXT Hejira (CD) ... Hejira (cassette) ... then Hejira (LP) ... then Hissing of Summer Lawns ;-) Don Rowe - --- John Stilwell wrote: > Greetings all: What Joni discs do you experts > suggest next. After Blue > (which is a masterpiece) and Hits (I love) What > comes next? I'm looking to > pick up two or three more! > > Thanks, John > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own > public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > ===== My debut CD "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:38:40 EST From: Rusty10113@aol.com Subject: Joni Free tape request Hi Everyone.. I heard that a VCR tape of some Joni interviews/performances are available..I would also love to get a tape of her videos, specifically Two Grey Rooms... any suggestions where I can get a copy or buy one? Help! Thanks, I'm new to the list but it's great to share the love.. :) Mitch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:54:00 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Food of our childhoods NJC (md) Boy, no wonder you turned out so weird, eating all that 5-star stuff! Whatever happened to the four basic food groups of childhood: Sodium Sugar Partially hydrogenated vegetable oil -- AND -- MSG To get your daily recommended allowance of these key nutrients, you should have been chowing down the following: Kraft Macaroni and Cheese -- the blue box, accept no substitutes Kaptain Krunch w/Krunchberries (DA BOMB) Chef Boyardee Spaghetti-Os Kellog's Pop Tarts -- Blueberry & Strawberry Wolf Brand Chili Tang Hostess Ding-Dongs Now there's a diet of champions! Tee-hee! Don Rowe ===== My debut CD "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:01:58 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) In a message dated 11/10/00 10:45:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, lrfye@yahoo.com writes: << You can bet people will be educated and paying attention this time around. Afterwards, no excuses. >> i just heard that there were 15,000 spoiled ballots in palm beach in the 96 election with a lower turn out. i've not seen it in writing yet. patrick np. peter gabriel and paula cole - don't give up ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:07:34 -0500 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: warning: political content - more on electoral college (NJC) I'm not obsessed, just curious... I looked at how many people voted in each state, then divided that number by the number of electoral votes to find out how many people each delegate to the Electoral College actually represents. So, in the District of Columbia, a delegade represents 63,233 votes in this election. In Minnesota, on the other hand, a delegate represents 243,910 votes. So, if you voted in D.C., your vote counts almost four times as much as if you voted in Minnesota. Here's the list of how each state fares in this election (the state, followed by how many votes each vote was worth): Anne <<...>> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:33:38 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: > dr. to j.b. - if gore wins the recount, will you walk away and allow the > thing to end? > j.b. - yes, but we're going to win the recount. Interesting that he can be so sure about that. It's a big deal that he happens to be Bush's brother. I'm not saying he was able to fix anything, but the Republicans have to be very careful with this. They don't seem to realize that. > ... and i'm wondering how many thousands of people didn't vote on the > panhandle of florida because it was announced that the state had gone to > gore? i don't see that being talked about on this list. No projections were made in any state until that state's polls had closed. All the votes in Florida had already been cast, but not completely counted yet, when the projection was made. Whether the incorrect report about Florida kept people in other parts of the country from voting... maybe. But I doubt it. There were very strong feelings on both sides about this election and the fact that it was reported a little after 7 pm that Florida went for Gore made it look good for the Democrats, but the race was by no means over, and I think that was made very clear by the newscasters (if for no other reason than they wanted viewers to keep watching and such a cliffhanger will keep people tuned in). Also, Jeb Bush's first actions after hearing about Florida was to call talk radio stations in the west to get out the vote for Bush there. So the incorrect Florida projection may actually have brought out more Bush voters. Debra Shea NP: MSNBC headlines from around the world ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:41:31 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: > i just heard that there were 15,000 spoiled ballots in palm beach in the 96 > election with a lower turn out. i've not seen it in writing yet. That's a correct report, but in 1996 it didn't matter because there was a huge difference in the number of votes for each candidate. There was a clear winner then, whether those 15,000 votes were counted in or not. With a difference now of only hundreds of votes, each particular vote becomes incredibly important. This situation can't be compared to anything that has happened before. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:39:25 -0800 (PST) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) patrick wrote: > i just heard that there were 15,000 spoiled ballots > in palm beach in the 96 election with a lower turn > out. i've not seen it in writing yet. I've heard that, too. No doubt there are some spoiled ballots in every state in every election. However, 1996's contest wasn't as close as this one. Further, after 4 years I'll bet it would be difficult to prove there were spoiled ballots in '96. If someone is going to use spoiled ballots in '96 as justification for not allowing a re-vote in Palm Beach (or elsewhere, if it becomes apparent that this is a problem in other states with a narrow vote margin), someone else is going to want proof. I would rather see a re-vote in Palm Beach (of just those who voted on 11/7) than suffer through a lengthy litigious process. At this point, I'm tempted to say, "Let the whole country vote again." Bet we'd see an even greater turn out, now that we've figured out that our individual votes DO count! Lori in DC, wondering what influence the popular TV show "West Wing" may have had in helping to bring out the liberal vote in the US __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:48:39 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: RE: Craziness (NJC) Kakki responded to Debra: "Maybe I'm just getting too old - I'm sick of the constant spin, bias and excuses which is facilitated by the media on a 24 hour basis. I hear the media pundits start ranting with ideas on how to fight the situation in Florida and a few hours later, I hear some lawyers on some show saying they are going to sue, etc. It's like the media advances these ideas and then everyone picks up on them as gospel truth, irregardless of what the laws are, whether state or federal, and irregardless of what the truth is. Yuck. Here's a news story I heard today on the esteemed NPR - the voters in Richard Daley, Jr.s (Gore's sampaign manager and spokesman) precinct also used a "butterfly" ballot. How ironic! " Me now: so it's only the Democrats' "spin" that is objectionable? With all due respect, I've heard quite a lot of what I would characterize as *Republican* spin and bluster in the past 48 hours, although you don't seem to be criticizing any of that. Unfortunately, "spin" on both sides seems to go with the territory, and I agee with you that it complicates an already very difficult situation. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:57:21 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Craziness, the Election, and the Arrow (NJC) MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > ....After seeing > the ballots and how the hole they needed to push had a fricken big black > arrow pointing to the hole directly next to the Candidates name I think I > have to wonder how it is that Democrats reproduce. Maybe we need a new > government entitlement program entitled "Free Stomach Arrow Tatoos for > Democrats" to, you know, help them out. : <> marcel deste Such insults might get points from militia buddies or on talk radio, but here it just looks ignorant and hateful. This shows how right-wingers are so easily frustrated and have absolutely no tolerance of other views, and instead of trying to persuade people of their view by talking about ideas, they just toss insults around. That doesn't ever convince me of anything, no matter how many facts might be included among all those insults. There's no equivalent behavior from the Democrats. Thank god for that. Can you imagine if everyone communicated only by insulting the other side? Nothing would ever get done. It would be an endless name-calling marathon. If Bush does win this election, I would hope that the hatefulness of the right-wing would dissipate. With a Republican President and Congress, who could they then blame all their troubles on? Unfortunately, though, I'm sure targets other than the government will be found; that's the nature of projected hatred. Where's Communist Russia when we need it? Worrying about those Commies used to keep the right-wing happy and away from other targets like the Democratic president, minorities and women. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:53:09 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) In a message dated 11/10/00 11:44:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << dr. to j.b. >> that was dan rather to james baker, not jeb bush. patrick np. peter gabriel and paula cole - shaking the tree ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:01:10 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/00 11:44:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, > dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: > > << dr. to j.b. >> > > that was dan rather to james baker, not jeb bush. The issue remains. How are the Republicans so sure about it? So there's no lingering doubt about this issue, the situation needs to be very carefully resolved. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:08:03 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Spin (NJC) (was RE: Craziness, NJC) Oops: forgot to make one point in my last post. I agreed that spin was bad, but neglected to say that, unfortunately, one of the problems inherent in this kind of crisis is the frequent inability of individuals holding different viewpoints to agree on what exactly "spin" is! To put it another way, one man (woman's) "spin" may be another's Gospel truth. Much is in the eye of the beholder. May this all be resolved quickly and fairly. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:42:33 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Craziness/my mistake (NJC) dsk wrote: > Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: > > > ... and i'm wondering how many thousands of people didn't vote on the > > panhandle of florida because it was announced that the state had gone to > > gore? i don't see that being talked about on this list. > > No projections were made in any state until that state's polls had closed. All > the votes in Florida had already been cast, but not completely counted yet, when > the projection was made. I just heard something about this on the news so I was wrong about the polls over the entire state being closed before the projection was made. Don't know what effect that too-early projection would have on the voters on the western side of the state. So far I haven't heard anything from those voters themselves about that, just concerns expressed by election officials. Doesn't mean those voters aren't talking though. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:38:45 EST From: CarltonCT@AOL.Com Subject: Electoral college (NJC) I have to disagree with my home girl Kakki about the need for an Electoral College. One of the reasons it was sustained for so long is that the South wanted to maintain a balance of slave states. We are one nation, and our state's interests are already represented by congressmen and senators. Our president, the leader who "presides" for us all should be voted for directly. I heard a woman on NPR yesterday who complained that her vote for a Democrat was always a wasted vote because her home state of Wyoming always went for a Republican. She said she may as well take an absentee ballot, shred it to pieces and toss it into the wind. As for Florida, if we stick to legal technicalities, I read in the paper that there is a law which says a ballot must be lined up on the right, so all of the butterfly ballots were illegal, regardless of whether they were approved of by Democrats or not. More importantly, the Bush camp should acknowledge that there were irregularities, and that the will of the people was not expressed because of a confusing ballot which means the invalidation of at 19,000 votes. The Bush camp should acknowledge that the majority of this *country* wants Gore as their president. I am grateful the American people came to their senses and realized, largely, that Nader would be a spoiler, and that it was better to have Gore for a president than some dyslexic frat rat/cheer leader who would be nothing but a puppet of the oil corporations (as well as his parents and a lot of other rich old white people). Texas is the most polluted state in the country and has the highest lung and blood cancer rates, especially in places like Odessa where Bush relaxed pollution laws in order that oil companies would fund his gubernatorial candidacy. Putting Bush and Cheney in charge of the environment is like putting wolves in charge of the sheep. Texas can have Houston which is now the most polluted city in the country. Almost as importantly, a Bush presidency diminishes our prestige as a nation. This whole campaign has pissed me off to no end because so many Americans were willing to elect a mediocre moron like Dubya because he is a mediocre reflection of themselves. It's like they were voting for prom queen instead of president of the United States. I love the idea that the president would be smarter and better educated than I am. That's the case with Al Gore. I'm not bragging when I say I am Dubya's intellectual superior, but so are most of the people on this list. Can you imagine the Israeli's and Palestinians seeking out Bush to mediate their peace agreement? It won't happen. But maybe Yasser and Ehud will invite him over for a righteous kegger when it all gets settled. America has had other stupid presidents, Reagan being one of them, a man his fellow conservative Margaret Thatcher described as having a "head full or rice pudding" and another time as "simply not much up there." He was similar to Bush in that he was a charmer with good people skills who could act the role. So we could survive a Dubya presidency, but I remember the Reagan/Bush years with no fondness at all. I remember those compassionless fucks doing nothing during the AIDS crisis, Reagan in particular, never even mentioned the words AIDS. I remember what Los Angeles and New York were like with the streets overrun with homeless people. I remember the overwhelming national debt which resulted from the implementation of Reaganomics, which briefly created the illusion of prosperity, an illusion that could no longer be sustained during the Bush administration. It was Bush who called Reagan's economic policy "voodoo" economics and when he was president, Bush was more right than he knew. If Bush manages to get in, we will have at least four years of internal decline. Bush will not take an interest in global affairs and he will be a reactive president instead of a proactive one. Other nations will test him knowing that he does not believe America should be the policeman to the world i.e., he doesn't want to get involved, regardless of whether a nation is committing genocide or oppressing its minorities or women. On a different note, Nader's entire mission was so misdirected. If we had a parliamentary system, we could have a viable Green party, and I'd be the first one to register. But we don't form coalitions of various parties in this country in order to elect a prime minister. Ralph didn't get the 5 per cent he needed, and he may have thrown the election to the most inept president ever, one that many people suspect cannot properly read and write. I'd just like to say some of my best friends are dyslexic, and they have exceptional talents they have developed in compensation, but being a capable leader of the free world isn't one of them. The only good thing about a Bush presidency is that the music might get better -- it always seems to when there are conservatives in office. - - Clark NP: Third Eye Blind ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:49:52 -0600 From: "Susan" Subject: Re: Craziness (NJC) Just for everyone's information, I voted in Chicago on the butterfly ballot. It was VERY confusing! It was only for the judges, but I am a maniac and vote fairly informed on those races as well. I had 3 or 4 judges I definitely needed to retain. One was a gay brother who can always use a vote. I had every intention of complaining, once the election was over, to the powers that be. I do not care how long it takes, nor do I care if three or four more states warrant recounts - DO IT ! Get it right and nobody can bitch about it. I am wavering on a re-vote, although I know it would probably help my candidate. I believe that in 1996 there were over 14,000 votes disqualified, but this is still a significant increase in an election that may be won by less than one half of one percent. This is a 40% increase in disqualifications, that is important. I also think only those that voted the first time should vote this time and I would limit it to the county in question. My feelings against a re-vote is legally really is no precedent and I also don't want to be a sore loser. Finally, at this point also no matter who wins that candidate must bring the country together since this was a virtual heat. That would be the responsible thing to do. I am betting that unless that person is through the roof popular and successful, we'll see a new president in four years. Especially if Gore wins, I don't think Americans will vote for the same party to be in office for a 16th year in a row. Just like the market, politics are also cyclical. Anyway, my fellow Americans lets keep our wits about us. If we can't pick between these two perhaps I should just be appointed or anointed - you choose! Peace Susan NPIMH - "Susan" by the Buckinghams (possible new national anthem) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:51:03 -0600 From: evian Subject: Re: grace jones and long diverted rant on my day njc Oh, I remember when she was on Carson with Dolph and she was talking about how all the camera people were "orgasming" when they did some photo shoot, and I kept thinking "She's so sexy, and so freaky and spooky too". Have a good Friday, off to furniture hunt yet again! Evian JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > < huge crush on her back in the day, except when I really think about it, she > pretty much scared the bejesus out of me! Evian>> > > I had a jones for Grace, too Evian! It wasn't "slave.." but "My Jamaican > Guy" that rocked my world. She wore black Stiletto pumps and black widow > vinyl for her highly styilized and choreographed minimalist performance art > rendering of the song on, Carson, I think. It solidified her stature as the > Amazon Queen of the artistic avant garde, undisputed, in my mind. That was > the time I think she brought on her then toy boy, one Dolph Lundgren. It was > classic TV for me. She's scary, sure, like a fox! Whatever happened to her? > > -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:02:19 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: RE: Craziness (NJC) Call me hopelessly naieve if you like, but to me, it seems that this Presidential election might yet turn out to be one of the best things that's happened in the history of the American democracy. This is the kind of stuff your Civics teacher sonorously lectured you about ... in what seemed back then a tedious, and overly-belabored point: Your vote counts. Well goodbye boring lectures, hello real world. Challenges, recounts and spinning aside, when all this is said and done, the American voting public is going to have a vastly improved education about just how it is this election process of ours really works. Now 'fess up, I'll bet most of us had a general idea of how complex this system is, but until we saw it put to it's greatest test in history, whether or not it would work when it needed to was pretty much camping out in the theoretical. Not any more ... I also can't help but think that a great deal of recent voter apathy stems in large part from "taking it for granted" that political elections are, for the most part, foregone conclusions -- a bit of window dressing for a decision already taken. After this one, I'd be surprised if anybody could look you square in the face and make that kind of a suggestion. Don Rowe ===== Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:13:44 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Rock Stars and Requests(sjc) Long Chris, excellent post! especially the inside hard data on Joni! thanks to all: pls forgive my late posting on this. my digests are piled up a bit again, but I just have to chime in on this one. (so the old fart leans back in his rocking chair and begins...) of course, as always, my post refers to the very early, pre-recording artist Joni when you could get in the door to see her play for $1.25 and there was no expense account and, accordingly, few 'requests'... but for the sake of history: in my role as booking manager and defacto stage manager, *most* of the time I spent with Joni was literally 'backstage' in the small dressing room or the tiny cubby Brian and I shared as an office, and there were really only two concerns she had which she expected me to handle: it actually boils down to one request but primarily regarding two distinct groups, both of which I've described before to this list: first, the 'cactus tree' gang, as I have come to call them... a small but consistent/persistent bunch of guys, 'groupies' if you will, who, apparently, followed Joni, venue to venue, as she toured the circuit and, believe me, were quite avid in their desire for an audience with her as well as creative in coming up with schemes to get past me. secondly, there were the recording company agents who would show up wanting to convince her to sign a recording contract, also quite persistent. so this was Joni's 'request'... that I act as a buffer/shield and under no circumstances was I to allow any of these guys access to her. pretty straightforward... not really all that strange... only the circumstances were strange... or, rather, unique to Joni Mitchell. the mention of 'strange requests' also made me think of another little adventure of mine... it was in the early '70's when I was heading up a folk club at the local community college... Michigan's own Ted Nugent was coming to play a concert and some of us were asked to volunteer for stage security. I happened to be chosen as Ted's personal security and just what that entailed is kind of interesting. see, Mr. Nugent, as you are probably aware, is a rather headstrong fellow and, as a rock musician, this manifested in two major ways: first, of course, was his total abstinence from any use of drugs; very unusual in that day and time, and I can witness that it is true... in fact, I would guess that if any of his band members were using, they had to hide it and Lord help 'em if they showed up stoned before a show. the second thing had more to do with the music itself. unlike most rock musicians, Ted never used effects (a trait shared by only one other rocker that I know of, Rory Gallagher) he depended on two things for his sound, outside of his playing ability: full tilt volume from and, for feedback, proximity to his Fender stacks, and his fine, early '50's Gibson acoustic-electric guitars which he treated like they were made of glass... which was where I (and his 'strange request') came in... after sound-check and tuning, his trademark blond Gibson was kept in the case back in the dressing room. then, when it was time to mount the stage, I had to take it out of the case *with* him and walk *with* him, both of us holding the guitar, one hand on the body, one hand on the neck, all the way on to the stage... then I had to stand behind the PA speakers, a few feet away to his left, through the entire concert and then return to the dressing room cradling his guitar together all the way back in the same manner. well, there ya go... time for my geritol... ;o) pat NP: Journey To The Center Of The Mind - Amboy Dukes http://homepages.go.com/~badwolff/albums/album1/ Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:14:49 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Rock Stars and Requests(sjc) Long Chris, excellent post! especially the inside hard data on Joni! thanks to all: pls forgive my late posting on this. my digests are piled up a bit again, but I just have to chime in on this one. (so the old fart leans back in his rocking chair and begins...) of course, as always, my post refers to the very early, pre-recording artist Joni when you could get in the door to see her play for $1.25 and there was no expense account and, accordingly, few 'requests'... but for the sake of history: in my role as booking manager and defacto stage manager, *most* of the time I spent with Joni was literally 'backstage' in the small dressing room or the tiny cubby Brian and I shared as an office, and there were really only two concerns she had which she expected me to handle: it actually boils down to one request but primarily regarding two distinct groups, both of which I've described before to this list: first, the 'cactus tree' gang, as I have come to call them... a small but consistent/persistent bunch of guys, 'groupies' if you will, who, apparently, followed Joni, venue to venue, as she toured the circuit and, believe me, were quite avid in their desire for an audience with her as well as creative in coming up with schemes to get past me. secondly, there were the recording company agents who would show up wanting to convince her to sign a recording contract, also quite persistent. so this was Joni's 'request'... that I act as a buffer/shield and under no circumstances was I to allow any of these guys access to her. pretty straightforward... not really all that strange... only the circumstances were strange... or, rather, unique to Joni Mitchell. the mention of 'strange requests' also made me think of another little adventure of mine... it was in the early '70's when I was heading up a folk club at the local community college... Michigan's own Ted Nugent was coming to play a concert and some of us were asked to volunteer for stage security. I happened to be chosen as Ted's personal security and just what that entailed is kind of interesting. see, Mr. Nugent, as you are probably aware, is a rather headstrong fellow and, as a rock musician, this manifested in two major ways: first, of course, was his total abstinence from any use of drugs; very unusual in that day and time, and I can witness that it is true... in fact, I would guess that if any of his band members were using, they had to hide it and Lord help 'em if they showed up stoned before a show. the second thing had more to do with the music itself. unlike most rock musicians, Ted never used effects (a trait shared by only one other rocker that I know of, Rory Gallagher) he depended on two things for his sound, outside of his playing ability: full tilt volume from and, for feedback, proximity to his Fender stacks, and his fine, early '50's Gibson acoustic-electric guitars which he treated like they were made of glass... which was where I (and his 'strange request') came in... after sound- check and tuning, his trademark blond Gibson was kept in the case back in the dressing room. then, when it was time to mount the stage, I had to take it out of the case *with* him and walk * with* him, both of us holding the guitar, one hand on the body, one hand on the neck, all the way on to the stage... then I had to stand behind the PA speakers, a few feet away to his left, through the entire concert and then return to the dressing room cradling his guitar together all the way back in the same manner. well, there ya go... time for my geritol... ;o) pat NP: Journey To The Center Of The Mind - Amboy Dukes http://homepages.go.com/~badwolff/albums/album1/ Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #592 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she?