From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #563 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Wednesday, October 25 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 563 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The Boston mystery [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Joni's MOA Comment ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: The Boston mystery - Solved? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: The Boston mystery ["James L. Leonard" ] This Just In- JoniFest2000 New Orleans Update [Michael Paz ] Re: The Boston mystery ["Kakki" ] Re: The Boston mystery ["Stephen Epstein" ] Re: Joni's MOA Comment ["Kakki" ] Naked Chicks NJC) [Michael Paz ] The Boston '83 Concert on the Commons ["Russell Bowden" ] Joni's MOA Comment(NJC) ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: Joni's MOA Comment [davidpaulmarine@webtv.net (David Marine)] njc hello ["Wally Kairuz" ] Joni and her audience ["Patrick Willoughby" ] Emotional Rescue! (NJC) [Michael Paz ] wally breese article ["Wally Kairuz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:43:16 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: The Boston mystery Ric wrote: << because i will never forget the opening chords of coyote, with which she began the concert. i got all choked up, hearing those familiar chords, and i was suddenly sick at the thought that the woman i was with, who had the remarkably poor judgement to later marry me, might notice! >> Ric, your post was very well written, and made a lot of sense to me, however I MUST take exception to the statement, "the woman i was with, who had the remarkably poor judgement to later marry me"!!! I have known you now for several years, (we just had coffee together this afternoon!) and Judy is a very, very lucky woman indeed to have married such a sweet, kind, generous soul such as you. Your 2 daughters are so lucky to have you as their dad! I am sending so much love and healing prayers to you and your whole family through this tough time. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:18:02 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni's MOA Comment Jim said: > > I don't intend to start a flame war (honestly), but I did want >to respond > to some of the more benign, sugar-coated >interpretations of Joni's motives > behind the MOA comment >with my far more critical one. > and then Kakki said: > It's interesting, Jim, that you are concerned about expressing your critical > opinion here, yet you yourself diss the opinions of myself and some others > by calling them "benign" and "sugar-coated". And to both of you I say: Although I would never discourage anybody from expressing an honest opinion in this forum, I too found the 'sugar-coated' comment to be on the condescending side. The implication is that Jim's opinion is the objective, reasonable one while some others are tainted because of their 'adoration' of Joni. Whether you were doing it individually or collectively, it sounded like dissing to me. Jim said: > > I bought MOA when it first arrived, and was immediately >unimpressed with > Joni's attitude towards her audience, as >exhibited in that moment. It left > a bad taste in my mouth >from the beginning. Say what you will about the Van > Gogh >comment, but it comes from a very conceited point of view, >is > delivered with holier-than-thou exasperation, and is most >definitely a "put > down" of the audience. And if some of us are 'sugar-coating' it seems to me that this is going the opposite direction, putting a negative spin on what I've always thought was a fairly innocuous bit of stage patter. Where do you get 'conceited' or 'holier-than-thou' or 'put-down' out of it? She giggles during part of it and the audience is attentive & seeming to enjoy hearing what she has to say. She doesn't say something like 'nobody ever said to Van Gogh - you bimbos do know who Van Gogh is, don't you?' At the end of it she sings one her best known songs. And Fred, I don't think that was a smooth edit to a completely different part of the performance. If I remember it correctly, immediately after she says 'he painted it, that was it' she says 'Let's sing this next song together, ok?' She hardly sounds like she's thinking 'Oh God, I have to sing this dull old piece of crap *again* for yet *another* group of morons!' Joni is human and she's said & done things that I haven't always agreed with or liked. There are times when I have thought she has sounded extremely arrogant. But I have never thought of the Van Gogh monologue as being even remotely in that vein. What am I missing here? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:05:38 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Boston mystery - Solved? << and i could not believe it! because in fact, she DID perform almost an entire set before song for sharon was attempted. and when she came back, after her 45-60 minute siesta, she did quite a few more songs than i recall. >> Funny how the memory tends to work that way, to filter out the good stuff and recall the negative. Besides, we know from the BSN tour that Jim always leaves Joni's shows early! :~D (Sorry Jim, had to get in a little fun dig) And I'm also thinking the good thoughts for you and your family Ric, and have been for a long time...Happiness is the Best Spaceship! Bob the gullible ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:07:08 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: The Boston mystery Hi, Ric. Thanks a great deal for sharing your recollections of the Boston show. Thanks to you, and Ashara, and Bob, I learned a very valuable lesson today. Never again will I be so insistent that my memory of any distant event is beyond question. I'm still shaking my head as I look at the Boston set list Bob supplied. I remember none of the songs before "Song For Sharon." Your comment, Ric, that we Joniphiles were so upset that night that our perceptions were skewed, is the only reasonable explanation I can accept for how shoddy my own recollections became over time. I mentioned in my own recounting of the events of that day that I had been in a fairly serious auto accident early that afternoon, and I did end up getting a later start in to Boston than I'd planned. Is it possible that "Song For Sharon" opened Joni's *second* set that night, and that I missed a whole set without ever realizing it? I just don't know. A "Coyote" lover myself (not to mention an "Edith" lover, etc.), I can't believe I could have erased those songs so completely from my admittedly suspect memory. I'm still confused, but less so, thanks to you, Ric. I'll sleep much better tonight because you took the time to write as you did. I have no knowledge of what your present difficulties are, to which Ashara referred, but, please allow me to extend my very best wishes to you and your family, Ric. "Boston Jim" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 22:42:20 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: This Just In- JoniFest2000 New Orleans Update Hello All- I am still mixing here. WOW. Jason Marsalis' set is stellar. So MANY moments here. I am fired up. I hope to get all the recordings out to the artists by early next week (for their approval of performances) before I start doing final mixes in the REAL studio. These mixes will HAVE TO BE automated because the recording itself on the multitrack is all over the place. I could spend weeks mixing and editing this stuff. My intention is to keep it as honest to the actual performance as possible. I am still working on the logistics of the actual release. So far i am thinking of a JMDL disc, a New Orleans musicians disc, and a Jazz disc. We will see how it works out time wise. It has filled me with so much emotion thinking about those times and listening to the comments from the jmdl in the front rows. I can here Kakki laughing and everyone shouting out comments, even the locals were getting into the act. I just finished Trouble Child and The Priest (Kevin Danzag and Cat Wooley) and Jim's fave Little Queenie is tearing up Dreamland right now with Michael Skinkus on Percussion. Peace, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 00:33:32 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: The Boston mystery - Solved? i agree with you guys. concerts are such weird events. one always thinks that they were too short, that the performer did just a couple of numbers and then upped and left, etc.. and when one stops to think about the actual event, well, it turns out that it was a five-hour affair!!!!! ric, someone who marries a joni fan can't be that bad. hurray for judy! and cheers to you. i'm looking at the 1999 jonifest pictures, and you could be a john lennon look-alike and muller a james caan look-alike and ashara has a goldie hawn thing. wallyk - -----Mensaje original----- De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de SCJoniGuy@aol.com Enviado el: Miércoles, 25 de Octubre de 2000 12:06 a.m. Para: Ricw1217@aol.com; jll@tampabay.rr.com; Joni@smoe.org Asunto: Re: The Boston mystery - Solved? << and i could not believe it! because in fact, she DID perform almost an entire set before song for sharon was attempted. and when she came back, after her 45-60 minute siesta, she did quite a few more songs than i recall. >> Bob the gullible ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:45:56 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: Re: Joni's MOA Comment I too, feel that this thread has gotten a little out of hand! My personal take on Ms. Mitchell's comment - she was a bit pissed, and understandably so, and attempted to add a touch of humour to the situation. Perhaps not to piss off her adoring fans from JMDL. Though I agree w/Fred Simon that a song is meant to be continually sung and it never is the same way twice, an audience shouldn't arrive @ a concert w/pre-conceived ideas of what to expect. They're artists! Creative. Whatever we are presented with we should accept, cherish and revel in the moment. I have always felt that it is a privilege and good fortune to be able to see one of my faves perform live- how lucky we are. Would it have been better if they sang this song, or that? I think not. The opportunity in itself is reward enough, for me. Hey, we can all be bitchy sometimes- we all have our moments! Maybe we should contribute her's to the fact that it's a Canadian thing!! Regards, Stephen, in Vancouver- CANADA! NP: Dan Hicks- Beatin' the Heat "Mark or Travis" on 10/24/2000 07:18:02 PM Please respond to "Mark or Travis" To: "Kakki" , "James L. Leonard" , "Joni List" cc: (bcc: Stephen Epstein/Agmont) Subject: Re: Joni's MOA Comment Jim said: > > I don't intend to start a flame war (honestly), but I did want >to respond > to some of the more benign, sugar-coated >interpretations of Joni's motives > behind the MOA comment >with my far more critical one. > and then Kakki said: > It's interesting, Jim, that you are concerned about expressing your critical > opinion here, yet you yourself diss the opinions of myself and some others > by calling them "benign" and "sugar-coated". And to both of you I say: Although I would never discourage anybody from expressing an honest opinion in this forum, I too found the 'sugar-coated' comment to be on the condescending side. The implication is that Jim's opinion is the objective, reasonable one while some others are tainted because of their 'adoration' of Joni. Whether you were doing it individually or collectively, it sounded like dissing to me. Jim said: > > I bought MOA when it first arrived, and was immediately >unimpressed with > Joni's attitude towards her audience, as >exhibited in that moment. It left > a bad taste in my mouth >from the beginning. Say what you will about the Van > Gogh >comment, but it comes from a very conceited point of view, >is > delivered with holier-than-thou exasperation, and is most >definitely a "put > down" of the audience. And if some of us are 'sugar-coating' it seems to me that this is going the opposite direction, putting a negative spin on what I've always thought was a fairly innocuous bit of stage patter. Where do you get 'conceited' or 'holier-than-thou' or 'put-down' out of it? She giggles during part of it and the audience is attentive & seeming to enjoy hearing what she has to say. She doesn't say something like 'nobody ever said to Van Gogh - you bimbos do know who Van Gogh is, don't you?' At the end of it she sings one her best known songs. And Fred, I don't think that was a smooth edit to a completely different part of the performance. If I remember it correctly, immediately after she says 'he painted it, that was it' she says 'Let's sing this next song together, ok?' She hardly sounds like she's thinking 'Oh God, I have to sing this dull old piece of crap *again* for yet *another* group of morons!' Joni is human and she's said & done things that I haven't always agreed with or liked. There are times when I have thought she has sounded extremely arrogant. But I have never thought of the Van Gogh monologue as being even remotely in that vein. What am I missing here? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:36:48 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: The Boston mystery Ric wrote: > thanks for sharing your ideas. i always applaud anyones >resistance to this joint's tendancy to deify joni. let's allow >her to be a human being, which, sometimes, means being a >jerk. we need to seperate the artist from the art! I think it's really two sides of the same coin. Both viewpoints stem from the belief that she's just a human being. One viewpoint expresses thjis by saying "Look!" She's flawed! She's not a goddess, she is merely human. The other viewpoint is expressed by saying "yes, she's flawed because she is human, just like us, who are all flawed." Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:59:17 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: Re: The Boston mystery Well said, Kakki! Stephen in Vancouver "Kakki" on 10/24/2000 08:36:48 PM Please respond to "Kakki" To: Ricw1217@aol.com, jll@tampabay.rr.com, SCJoniGuy@aol.com, Joni@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Stephen Epstein/Agmont) Subject: Re: The Boston mystery Ric wrote: > thanks for sharing your ideas. i always applaud anyones >resistance to this joint's tendancy to deify joni. let's allow >her to be a human being, which, sometimes, means being a >jerk. we need to seperate the artist from the art! I think it's really two sides of the same coin. Both viewpoints stem from the belief that she's just a human being. One viewpoint expresses thjis by saying "Look!" She's flawed! She's not a goddess, she is merely human. The other viewpoint is expressed by saying "yes, she's flawed because she is human, just like us, who are all flawed." Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:03:12 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's MOA Comment > I love Joni's artistry deeply, always have, but in spite of trying to give > her every benefit of the doubt over the years, I've come to view her > attitude toward her audience (and "peons" in general) as one of veiled > contempt. I always felt that the MOA comments were a manifestation of what I > believe is this flaw in her character, and I elected, however stupidly in > the context of the JMDL, to express this opinion. I would expect nothing > less than the most positive spin from her most ardent fans, and am still > puzzled as to why I went ahead and wrote what I did, under those > circumstances. I can only defend my post as an honest admission of my > feelings about Joni as a person. I want the people I admire to be kind, as > well as talented. Jim, thanks for responding to my post and I apologize if I sounded a bit harsh. I find myself getting a bit gnarly in my old age (but I kind of like it after always being deemed "too nice" for most of my life ;-) All I can say to your perception of Joni's actions over the years, and which I mean with all sincerity (and not to "deify" her in any way) is that as much as I've always loved her, I also always had a perception that she would be aloof, and somewhat snobbish and cold in person. Which was O.K. with me because I felt the art she has given to us gave her a bit of a free pass in my opinion. Well guess what - when I first got to speak with her after the Warner Bros. taping in May '98, I was completely surprised at how warm, down to earth and sweet she was. No, I didn't think that because I wanted to think that. I really expected her to be different and she threw me for a loop with her warmth and vulnerability. She was not at all how I'd imagined. I think the numbers of JMDL'ers who have met and spent some time with her number upwards of 60 people at this point and their accounts all corraborate what I felt when meeting her. The *only* maybe less than positive thing I've heard from a few people is that she talks too much. And those comments were all from men, and we know how men sometimes feel when us women yammer on and on. ;-D Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:28:22 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Naked Chicks NJC) Lahm wrote: "Bob's exact words were "naked chicks." DAVID LAHM" David that is exactly right. Fresh in MY memory cause I just heard it on Sunday as I was mixing. Coincidentally I am on your set now and what a great one it was (listening to Roland Guerin's solo in Wayne Swirled). Thanks again so much for your participation and enthusiasim for the project. i can't wait to get the rough mixes in your hands. Love Paz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:48:25 PDT From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: The Boston '83 Concert on the Commons Hey, All, Found the comments from Boston Jim very interesting. Here is my take on it....again! (During the concert, I made copious notes so I would never forget what I hoped would be a defining moment in my humdrum little life) I remember that day as being BLAZING hot and humid...Two friends and I had driven down from Maine just to see her. She opened with Coyote...Great start. She was wearing a white out fit with black over it....Reminiscent of the Hejira cover with the black and white reversed. When she got to Song for Sharon...she sang a couple of verses and stopped. She said, "I can't sing to your back." A great many folks were wandering around...lots of noise and chatter. She left the stage. Quite some time later she returned in what looked like a brown suede (?)pantsuit number...it must have been 110 degrees in that thing. She did a few numbers..mainly from WTRF..gotr mixed up on "Underneath the Streetlight"...it did go on just a little, but love the song anyway, so I didn't care.. She sat at the piano just once..it was "Chinese Cafe". She played about a verse and then stopped and apologized for the poor quality of the sound, saying that they really hadn't had time to make superior to what it was...sounded great to me...but, then again, I am not a Genius/Goddess. She left the stage again..and a LOT of people left. The faithful were able to get down to the stage...and for about 20 minutes we chanted Jo-ni, Jo-ni. She finally came out, being supported by Klein and one of the band guys. They were holding her up under her arms... She shook them off, bounced (mildly) off one of the speakers...strapped on her electric guitar and proceeded to give the most amazing 30 minutes of just herself playing, singing and walking around the stage. If I had died right then, I wouldn't have cared. She ended with "Woodstock". I have the shivers just remembering that from 17 years ago. So, that's how I saw it. When she finally had just the real fans there, she delivered...AND HOW! Much love, Russ The light, creation's mind, was everywhere, and all things owned its power. Charles Dickens _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:51:54 PDT From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Boston....one more thing. Guys, I also distinctly remember that this concert was in the afternoon..Honest to God!! It was in the afternoon. Love, Russ The light, creation's mind, was everywhere, and all things owned its power. Charles Dickens _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 01:00:24 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Joni's MOA Comment(NJC) Though I agree w/Fred Simon that a song is meant to be continually sung and it never is the same way twice, an audience shouldn't arrive @ a concert w/pre-conceived ideas of what to expect. They're artists! Creative. Whatever we are presented with we should accept, cherish and revel in the moment. One of my favorite things about going to see the Grateful Dead was knowing that the set list would be a complete surprise as every show was different and drawn from their repertoire of hundreds of tunes. I've never experienced anything else that has been quite the same as standing in the aisle, wondering if the next song would be "Jack Straw" or "Standing on the Moon"... Victor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:08:48 -0700 (PDT) From: davidpaulmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: Re: Joni's MOA Comment Hey List -- I saw first Joni in Maryland in, hmmmmm, '76, I think, at the Cole Field House. She walked off stage about six bars into her first song. I was livid. That was many years ago. Now I understand the frustrations of a performer on the road. And Joni is an artist first, a performer second. Talk all you want about showbiz professionalism, but unless you've been there yourself, you never really know. Joni puts her heart into what she does. If she has to walk off stage or cancel now and then, so what? David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 02:22:16 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: njc hello HEY RUSS!!!!!!!!! great to see a post from you on the list! wallyk, just sitting here, you know what i mean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:14:12 -0700 From: "Patrick Willoughby" Subject: Joni and her audience At the risk of flogging a by now dead horse, I don't think Herself has any real disdain for her audience, nor would I interpret the MOA comment that way. Surely any performer can be worn down by requests for the "same old same old song", when he or she is constantly striving to produce new and more challenging work. In Joan's case, even in 1974, she couldn't actually sing some of those really early songs with any sincerity any more. When Joni accepted the Billboard Century award, she explicitly thanked her *audience*, not the wheelers and dealers who arranged for that award to be presented to her. Not to excuse her behaviour in Boston in '83! When she performed here in Vancouver in '98, the so-called music press accused her of performing her less well-known music, even though she presented a broad selection of her work from Hejira, HOSL, and albums all jmdl-ers know well. Just ignorance on the part of the press. On the other hand, she is not always a humble person when the spotlight is on her. But I've seen her live 4 times, lucky me, and though the performances have sometimes been uneven, she has always treated the audience I've been part of with respect. Cheers from Vancouver, Patrick. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 01:12:00 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Emotional Rescue! (NJC) Well gang- It's almost all there. There is no more missing music other than what I already mentioned. Missing Catgirls song and Leslie Smiths Sunny Sunday is devastating though. I finished doing the rough mixes of David Lahm's set (fab) and Brian Thomas Band (I SHOULD HAVE OPENED THE SHOW WITH THEM AND SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF NEW ORLEANS) What an amazing sound. I have about 250 minutes of actual music to construe into some sort of compilation and I will continue working hard and fast to get it out there to you guys that wnat it. I now need someone to come to my emotional rescue, I'm am starting to make noises like "revisited". It's NOT official, but I am feeling like I might. Oh SHIT what am I saying. Stay tuned for more hysteria from deep below the bible belt. Got a call a little while ago from a bunch of wankers that are partying up in NYC and were at the Fez tonight seeing julia fordham (you lucky stiffs). They kept telling me that I was THERE with them, but I kept feeling like they dropped me off downtown. I wish I was there with you beautiful people (Julius, Allison, May, Jeff, and Julia) Ya bunch a wankers! Love to all, Paz P.S. Please do yourselves a favour and go out to your local record stores or order online thru jmdl.com or jonimitchell.com, the new one from my friend from Austin, Texas, Eric Johnson. He has a new band signed to Steve Vai's label Favoured Nations and distributed by Relativity called Alien Love Child-Live and Beyond. If you have not heard this guy and you love 60's rock music like Hendrix, Clapton, Beck (Jeff, NOT the 2turntable and a mic guy), mixed in with a little Jerry Reed, Beatles, and other wonderful ingredients. i think you will love this guy. He has some other discs out to called "Tones", "Ah Via Musiccom", "Venus Isle". The new record was released today and it is terrific. Kinda bluesy for Eric. Theres also a Return to Forever kinda thing he did with a band called The Electromagnets and his first record, Seven Worlds, that was held up in the courts for the past 20 years, that came out about a year ago. Cheers! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 03:24:30 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: wally breese article i don't know if this is old news but at the following site i've just found an article signed by wally breese!!! [hi wally!!!] http://imusic.com/showcase/contemporary/jonimitchell.html wallyK ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #563 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?