From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #543 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Friday, October 13 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 543 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Where art thou going (NJC) ["Michael Paz" ] Re: The Top Prize [Don Rowe ] re: The Top Prize ["c Karma" ] Coming and Going (NJC) ["Michael Paz" ] RE: Conversation [Susan McNamara ] Fwd: The Top Prize [Susan McNamara ] Anthems ["Michael Paz" ] RE: Conversation [Scott Price ] the top prize ["Stephen Epstein" ] Re: Conversation ["Susan" ] Fred Simon -Green Mill ["Susan" ] Re: Blue ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: The Big Prize ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Adultery (NJC) [Evan + Vanessa Thomson ] Re: NJC but oh so relevant [Heather ] Our Lady of Angels/Alvernia (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: The Tip Top Prize [B Merrill ] Re: Fwd: Re: to be a pin on some map, my vicarious thrill [pat holden ] Re: to be a pin on some map/why there? NJC ["Victor Johnson" ] Re: The Big Prize ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: The Top Prize [MGVal@aol.com] RE: The Tip Top Prize sjc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Fwd: to be a pin on some map, SOME vicarious thrill - NJC [Murphycopy@aol] Re: The Top Prize [Ricw1217@aol.com] Re: The Top Prize NJC (Leonard Cohen) [MGVal@aol.com] RE: to be a pin on some map/why there? NJC ["patrick leader" ] Apples and Cheeses and songs to play [Michael Paz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:46:26 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Where art thou going (NJC) Colin wrote: >I was born in readin Berksire, England. Left for Germany when 4 days old. Then back to >places), then to Singapore for 3, then to Gibraltar for 1, then to Australia for 5,(4 >different homes) then back to England. Lived in Portsmouth, Ham, Richmond, Brentford, >Clapham, Hampstead, West Hamsptead,Sunbury, Tistead, Hayling Island,Queens's Park, >Walthamstow, Forest Gate, Canning Town, East Dulwich, and now in March, Cambs. >Where the hell do I come from? >bw >colin Colin Me thinks the question REALLY is Where are you going? Keep on truckin Michael NP-Stateless-U2 (from Million Dollar Hotel) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:17:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: The Top Prize - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > Gee, what a surprise. Members of the Joni Mitchell > Discussion List Declaring > they like Joni's music better than Dylan's and > anyone else's. > Talk about preaching to the choir. > What's the point? > The point is this. Reciprocation ... we of the Joni Mitchell clergy find the choir's singing particularly appealing. In the hopes that we might return the favor, and by extension, the exhuberant joy of their joined voices, we decided to prepare a sermon specifically for them. We pondered in council for hours, in and out of nights, and almost over a year, searching for a subject of clarity and illumination. But it was for nought. That is, until one evening, driving past the Choirmaster's house, what to our wondering ears should arrive but a 47-part masacree of "Rainy Day Women #12 & 35". At first, it all seemed a bit tipsy, honestly -- but nonetheless profound -- in an 'in vino veritas' sort of a way. It was settled, we would preach comparisons betwixt Mr. Dylan and Ms. Mitchell. Hope this clears up the issue for you. Rev. Rowe ===== My debut CD "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:42:21 GMT From: "c Karma" Subject: re: The Top Prize As far as closing JoniFests, "Shadows and Light" is as good an anthem as any, especially if given the spiritual treatment. Got gospel? CC "Like the millions of lost and lonely ones, I called out to be released." -- JM _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:02:43 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Coming and Going (NJC) I did not realize that part of the thang was to give all your info on where your from etc. So here it is in a nutshell. Born in Detroit, Michigan Moved to San Pedro Sula, Honduras in 1965 (drove thru New Orleans where Mardi Gras was in full swing took mental notes for future) Blue Ridge Mountains, North Carolina for two years of high school (asked to leave cause I was TOO much fun) Summer in Europe where I met the now famous Julie who introduced me to Joni's music, THANKS Julie! Covington, Louisiana finished High School (almost asked to leave again cause I was having to much fun but was rescued by Brother Dale, thanks Bro) Lafayette, La. Two semesters of college at USL (University of Slow Learners) Played as a soloist on Bar circuit San Pedro Sula, Honduras-One year Hiatus playing with Banda Blanca and substitute teacher at American School Lafayette, La. One more year of college (the old college try) worked for Linda Ronstadt's family at a restaurant and caught the Food and Beverage Bug) Dropped out of school and moved to New Orleans worked in Hotel industry for three years Gunaja, Honduras Lived for one year on the island working building a hotel (ok Ok No I did not use any power tools) Roatan, Honduras Worked for one year in resort hotel Sucked back into New Orleans and been here ever since. Can't seem to find the exit. Plan to retire asap in Honduras and attend JoniFests for a living. Still here, Michael NP-The First Time-U2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:56:04 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: Conversation Ok, archive experts. What is the date of the performance on the tape trees where she sings Conversation with the rudimentary 4th verse? I'm assuming at this performance the song was possibly days old. Is that in 1967? Had she met Stills and Collins yet? Explain it to me like I'm a three-year old! I was under the impression that she had not officially met Stills until she went out to California with Crosby (i know that she knew Collins earlier). It's not that I disagree, I'm just wondering if the dates mesh. sue--a chronic believer in the fact that even Joni doesn't know who these songs are about!! :-) At 12:42 PM -0700 10/12/00, Scott Price wrote: >At 10:31 AM 10/12/00 -0500, Susan wrote: > >I also think the line you refer to (apples & cheeses) may not > >need to be taken so literal, it is a convenient rhyme. > > >In an early (before the studio album was released) live performance of this >song Joni sang "grapes and cheeses." I think "apples" with two syllables >instead of one ("grapes") fits the musical structure better and was, as you >wrote, more "convenient." > >Scott ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:00:58 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Fwd: The Top Prize Whoa, Nellie!! This is like Solomon and the baby. You can have it Jim, I don't want my Bobby sliced in two. He wrote "If You See Her Say Hello" which could be a contender with "The Last Time I Saw Richard" which I don't even think is Joni's best song (a great one but it didn't make it on my 15 list). I gratefully decline this sticky-wicket!! luvya, sue >Clearly the race for 'best singer-songwriter' is between Bobby and Joni. >Did Dylan ever write ANYTHING as good as the "Last Time I Saw Richard"? I >don't think so. I know Bob was more Influential by far. I also think that >sometimes the Student (Joni) surpasses the skills of the Teacher (Bob >Dylan). For me, Joni is THE best. Others? >All the best, >Jim L'Hommedieu ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:20:53 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Anthems Lama wrote: "Yah, the Universal aspect of "I Shall Be Released" is undeniable! Joni hasn't really made something suitable to close JoniFests with, for example. You know- the moment where the theatrical intuition tells you that everyone should get up and sing one song together- an anthem with many verses that brings everyone together. "I Shall Be Released" is certainly that. Great point." Jim- I shall Be Released has it's place as an anthem for us all, but I find that Circle Game has the same qualities, as does the anthem for the greatest generation of all time, Woodstock. Just because more lemmings bought the Dylan anthem, doesn't make it mo betta. Paz NP-Forget Me Not-John Waite Demo Tape ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:26:03 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: RE: Conversation At 05:56 PM 10/12/00 -0400, Susan McNamara wrote: > What is the date of the performance on the tape >trees where she sings Conversation with the rudimentary 4th verse? >I'm assuming at this performance the song was possibly days old. Is >that in 1967? Hi Sue, The performance I was referring to was the "Club 47" or "By the Banks of the River Charles" recording which is listed as Cambridge, Mass., January 4, 1968. I don't know how this relates to the timetable you were asking about with Stephen Stills and Judy Collins...perhaps someone else can give the chronology. This has been posted here before, but for newbies, the verse that never made it to the studio version of the song, "Conversation," went like this: - --------------------------------------------------------------- He's acted down all evening Maybe it's over now Maybe she's finally leaving I'd like to show her now But friends are friends forever So hard to change their role Laugh with him, cry together A friend feels so old But you keep your feelings deep inside You talk of them and think of pride Now is the wrong time But maybe if a dozen days are warm and right You'll hear him say "I've wanted you baby for such a long time" - --------------------------------------------------------------- Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:36:54 -0400 From: "Stephen Epstein" Subject: the top prize Not meaning to sound pretentious, but I feel this type of comparison- Dylan/Mitchell, Rickie Lee Jones/Mitchell- are futile. Though it creates interesting discussion, in my opinion one is not better than the other. When asked what my favourite movie of all time is, I don't have an answer- so many good ones! Favourite painter- Picasso, Van Gogh, Rauschenberg...... I don't know, all brilliant. Favourite singer/songwriter- Joni, Fred Neil, Laura Nyro...... too many choices of artistic genius- in all of these categories. It is such a personal feeling- the moment, the way something "hits"you, affects one. And it's forever changing- by one's mood, time of day, day of the week, the weather... And when queries like this are proposed to such a uniquely gifted, intelligent, and artistic group of individuals- we'll never agree!! But, it does make for an interesting read! Regards all, Stephen in Vancouver NP: Chucho Valdes- Live @ the Village Vanguard. P.S. To Bob M- you were listening the other day to Ron Sexsmith. I know that you too, are a big Elvis Costello fan. Elvis has mentioned numerous times in print, that he thinks Ron is one of the best songwriters in the world! High praise, indeed! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:51:46 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: Re: Conversation Susan McNamara wrote: > Ok, archive experts. What is the date of the performance on the tape > trees where she sings Conversation with the rudimentary 4th verse? > > sue--a chronic believer in the fact that even Joni doesn't know who > these songs are about!! :-) Susan, I don't know if my mind is able to recreate that whole period chronologically anymore. But you certainly make a good case, that window of opportunity is smaller than I realized. BUT I shant give up my stand that it is about Judy & Stephen. LOTC came out in 1970. All parties definitely knew each other by 68. They all had either recorded on one or the others albums or had covered each other on an album. But did they know each other in 67- -AHA! How long before that year (68) did they know each other ... And how intimately? Stay tuned I know some will climb through that window, but I have nothing in the way of proof. Although I fully intend on going on believing that Conversation is about Stills & Collins. Finally Susan, your last comment, I will ponder further, and dare I say you may have a point, I think sometimes it may be the mood or the brooding that inspires lyrics and any one song may not be traced to an absolute one person. But more times than not I think with Joni it does. Peace Susan Guzzi P. S. Scott can you help? > > > At 12:42 PM -0700 10/12/00, Scott Price wrote: > >At 10:31 AM 10/12/00 -0500, Susan wrote: > > >I also think the line you refer to (apples & cheeses) may not > > >need to be taken so literal, it is a convenient rhyme. > > > > > >In an early (before the studio album was released) live performance of this > >song Joni sang "grapes and cheeses." I think "apples" with two syllables > >instead of one ("grapes") fits the musical structure better and was, as you > >wrote, more "convenient." > > > >Scott > > ____________________ > /____________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > > > "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:15:59 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: Fred Simon -Green Mill First of all I met in person my first JMDLer last night! It was great to meet you Jody! Also former JMDLer Doug . Thanks to both of you for making me feel so comfortable and welcome. But of course being the rookie, Jody dropped the bomb that I would have to post on the event. So here goes ... Chicago's Green Mill lounge, featuring The Fred Simon Trio" As I walked through the doors and glided to my seat I heard the first notes as the trio had just begun their first set. I suddenly recalled a review of a Joni show at Ravinia, Il back in 74 I believe. "Her voice fluttered like a butterfly across the crowd" I am paraphrasing a bit. This was much the same, except here in this lounge, I would say like Fred's piano was more like fireflies dancing across the room and through the circles of smoke. Fred's wife Sarah played the drums so effortlessly, but with so much mood. While Kelly Sill was innovative and intimate on his bass. The whole night could have been a scene in a movie, as the old speakeasy seem to come to life with the tones set by Fred and his trio. While Jody, Duane and I got to know each other ... neither one bothered to introduce me to Fred! I just realized that. "Hi Fred, I lent you a pen, remember?" Anyway, I am not sure if the music floated or if it had us floating on a Fred Simon Trio Kinda High. Fred's new cd is "Dream House." Any opportunities to catch their shows here in the Chicagoland area should not be missed. Thank you Fred for a wonderful evening! And thanks again Jody & Duane -you are both sweeties! Peace Susan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:20:37 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Blue > On the issue of "Blue", I'll take the cheap writer's > compromise. Since the song seems to fit any number of > Joni's "d'affairs du coeur", I think it quite possible > -- and likely even -- that the song is, in fact, a > whole greater than the sum of it's parts. And therein > lies it's power ... that Joni's drawn from her most > powerful feelings from a number of affairs, and woven > them together into this timeless fabric. Songs are not necessarily written about one person. Quite often they are made up of a myriad of emotions. And writing a song is not as simple a process as it would seem. I was reading an interview with Joni from this month's issue of Inside Connection and she said quite often a long time may go by before she actually writes about a certain experience, relationship etc...so you can't chronologically match up affairs and songs necessarily. And as a songwriter, when I write a new song, it becomes this dynamic thing that grows and evolves and I may develop different ideas about what inspired the song even though I'm the one who wrote it. There is always that element of songwriting that lends itself to mystery, working in this medium of music and words that seems to transcend itself. Victor NP: John Coltrane -Live at the Village Vanguard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:26:33 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: The Big Prize Paul, You are in flame mode here. C'mon. Would you have us return to our astrology, geography and Madonna threads _in place of_ discussing Joni's strengths as a singer-songwriter? I hope there's room for both. What's the harm of re-affirming our faith? Of testifying once again? Jews and Christians go to temple/church to affirm their belief on a _regular_ basis, right? Be a joiner for once- I won't tell anyone- what's your opinion on this admittedly silly question? > Gee, what a surprise. Members of the Joni Mitchell Discussion List Declaring > they like Joni's music better than Dylan's and anyone else's. > Talk about preaching to the choir. > What's the point? > Paul I All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:43:31 +1000 From: Evan + Vanessa Thomson Subject: Adultery (NJC) What is considered adultery? Vanessa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:09:13 -0400 From: Heather Subject: Re: NJC but oh so relevant Happy Birthday Roberto !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! huge huge from Heather At 02:03 AM 10/12/00 -0300, Wally Kairuz wrote: >it is still october 11 in british columbia, oh canada, a very suitable >excuse for my tardiness. >if ever there was a person that qualified for the loudest, friendliest, >funniest happy birthday greeting that person is YOU > >MR ROBERT HOLLISTON, of the victoria hollistons. > >since i can be only loud and friendly, let me shout for the whole to hear: > >H-A-P-P-Y B-I-R-T-H-D-A-Y, PUMPKIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! >you are sexy >you are sweet >you are wicked >you are my friend > >have a great [place secret ordinal number here] birthday! >your wallykins ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:24:20 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Our Lady of Angels/Alvernia (NJC) Rev Vince wrote: In 1968 and 1969, my buds and I dated the entire Alvernia classes of 69 and 70. Susan answered: Sorry I can't say the same! Actually when I run into classmates in the past years, we find many of us are of the same persuasions and would have liked to have been in your shoes! the Rev replies: well, who knew (I didn't) that I was gay then so maybe that was why we all so cheerfully changed partners before anyone got too, too close. Sue further says: We still say that' why they shut the school down. HAHAHA! I graduated in 75 so I was a bit behind your "Alvernia Dating Frenzy." Sorry for those JMDLers, and please excuse Vince and I for indulging in a bit of Chicago nostalgia. the Rev reflects: If the whole JMDL knew Alvernia High School, they all would have moved to Chicago. I suspect that every single student at Alvernia was a Joni Mitchell fan. Vince also wrote: Our Lady of the Angels is a major event in the life of every person who was a grammar school student in Chicago in 1958, with the Our Lady of Angels fire of 1 December 1958, when 93 kids and 3 nuns burned to death. Susan, were you there when the fire happened? Susan shares: I was not even 2 years old, but I do have a very faint short memory of the event as it only began to take place. My brother Tony was at the back window pointing and saying "Smoke Mommy Smoke." That's all I remember sitting on the kitchen floor and the fear that exuding from my mother. See I used to have a great memory, but years of abuse ... oh well. I lost a cousin in the fire, with a couple others who were there but completely unharmed. I also remember a little girl from down the street, Helen also perished in the blaze. Vince you are so right about authority! Many died because the nuns told children to bow their heads and pray till they were rescued! Vince comments: after the tragedy of the fire that neighborhood became one of the first North side communities that were redlined, broken up by blockbusters who played the race card to drive whites out, selling their homes at any price to flee incoming blacks for the lily white suburbs. Racism was so alive and well. My neighborhood was further north and west and surely not immune to the racial hatred that Susan has written about. One of the most painful events of my life was watching Mayor Washington being mobbed, on Palm Sunday, by racists outside of the church that was my grandparents' parish church. The stories of Northwest side racism are plentiful and horrible and I can only say, with Frank Zappa, "I'm not black but there are a whole lottta times I wish I could say I weren't white." Susan's comments on the bigotry of that part of Chicago are alas, well founded. Susan continues: I remember them rebuilding the school, you couldn't burn that baby down if it was in the middle of the Great Chicago Fire! And man oh man, you had better take fire drills seriously or you might get burned at the stake! I saw more kids get whacked by nuns in fire drills than, than 10 St. Valentine's Day Massacres put together. OLA was located on Iowa (Thomas is very close) between Hamlin and Avers. Vince closes with: every school, fire drills became monthly mandatory and there was utter seriousness about them. At Lane Tech, my high school, the guys swim classes (they swam nude) were marched outside for the fire drills - - there were no exceptions after the Our Lady of the Angels fire. The church has now been sold to a non Roman congregation. A generation does not know. The fire was started by kids smoking at the bottom of a stairwell. However, since it could never be admitted that grammar school age Catholic students smoked, it was blamed on a short in the wiring of a the school Christmas tree lights. So live Christmas trees were banned in public buildings in Chicago and within three years, no one that I knew had a live tree in their house, either. We all believed the tree/lights/short story... that was what was drummed into us. The first time I saw a live tree in a public building was when I was 23, on internship at a church in Muskegon, in Michigan, my adopted state, and they had two! It traumatized me! I kept staring at those trees every moment I was in the church building, just waiting for them to burst into flames! I have now relaxed to allow live greens in the church but with no lights. And I always pause on 1 December to remember those poor children burned to death while they prayed for deliverance in obedience to the nuns, and for the nuns who did the only thing they know how to do, obey the rules, and that was wait for an answer to prayer or an "evacuate the school" alarm (which never went off as it had a short in it). Sorry for those who have been bored by these reminisces, and thank you for your patience and endurance to any who read all the way through. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:24:32 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: The Tip Top Prize When you consider her quantity, quality, variety, and consistency, Joni is, by far, the greatest singer-songwriter of her generation, our era. (And of all her virtues, the most consistent is her lyrical facility, imagination, poignancy. Right?) While Dylan may outdo her as to quantity, too many of Dylan's arrangements and melodies and chord progressions are simply perfunctory. Too many droning ballads. He doesn't have her range or imagination. No contest. (For that matter, it's not obvious to me that Dylan is #2. Dylan himself said once that Smokey Robinson was the greatest, and I'd certainly rather listen to Smokey's tunes than Bob's.) Also, from my particular standpoint, another big feather in Joni's cap, along with the case that she is the greatest singer-songwriter of our era, is the accomplishment of having created the greatest "concept album" of our time: Hissing of Summer Lawns. There's nothing that touches it in terms of musical variation, thematic complexity, and coherence. (Nothing that I've ever come upon.) It's really a marvel... I submit that, 30 years from now, this will be come to be recognized as one of the great creations of our generation-- just as we now look back in reverence to Renoir's Rules of the Game, Armstrong's Hot Fives, Picasso's blue period, etc. (I kid you not.) Let's all get together in 30 years, and see how it's doing, OK? If I'm wrong, you can dance on my grave. Bruce M. PS NP: My 7 & 11 year old sons are listening to EMINEM in the kitchen! The "clean" version. Stone the crows and Gimme shelter!! "What have I done to deserve this??" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:53:31 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: to be a pin on some map, my vicarious thrill Susan McNamara wrote: > The bumper sticker around town says "ITHACA IS GORGES" and it > certainly is!! We are not at peak yet...probably sometime next week. > sue > > At 8:33 PM -0400 10/11/00, Heather wrote: > >Ithaca is a beautiful place! It must be psychedelic right now with > >the leaves changing! > > > >Heather (from Binghamton) hey sue...we've got some gorgeous leaves happening up here too...the land of the maple leaf and all that....the progression of colours is actually a bit slower this year, which I love love love!!! I live near the escarpment and the Bruce Trail system so its fantastic..only a short drive to miles and miles of hiking. looking forward to my hiking partner joining me soon ;) Mags.... np: Ben Harper....Mimi's choice ;) > > > ____________________ > /____________________\ > ||-------------------|| > || Sue McNamara || > || sem8@cornell.edu || > ||___________________|| > || O etch-a-sketch O || > \___________________/ > > > > "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:07:05 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The Big Prize In a message dated 10/12/00 7:27:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jlamadoo@one.net writes: << Paul, You are in flame mode here. C'mon. Would you have us return to our astrology, geography and Madonna threads _in place of_ discussing Joni's strengths as a singer-songwriter? I hope there's room for both. What's the harm of re-affirming our faith? Of testifying once again? Jews and Christians go to temple/church to affirm their belief on a _regular_ basis, right? Be a joiner for once- I won't tell anyone- what's your opinion on this admittedly silly question? >> I think it is like comparing apples and cheeses. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:15:29 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: The Tip Top Prize > Also, from my particular standpoint, another big feather in Joni's cap, > along with the case that she is the greatest singer-songwriter of our era, > is the accomplishment of having created the greatest "concept album" of our > time: Hissing of Summer Lawns. There's nothing that touches it in terms of > musical variation, thematic complexity, and coherence. (Nothing that I've > ever come upon.) There's nothing that touches Jethro Tull "Thick as a Brick" in my opinion. But as soon as I label anything as the "greatest" something else immediately comes to mind. I can't play this game. There's just too much wonderful, breathtakingly beautiful music out there. I agree though, that in 30 years it will all seem even more beautiful. That's one reason I've made it a point these past couple of years to go see people like Joni, James Taylor, CSNY, Neil Young, etc...while I still can. Victor NP: Big Fish Ensemble State Bird of Big Fish Ensemble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:21:58 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: to be a pin on some map/why there? NJC Okay.... I was born in Tampa, Florida, Went to college in Greensboro, North Carolina where I discovered Joni Mitchell and formed my first duo that played mostly original songs and joni songs...plus a weird medley of Dear Mr Fantasy/Sympathy for the Devil/Amazing Grace. Lived in Guadalajara, Mexico for half a year then returned to college in NC and graduated. Moved back to Florida and then back to NC and then back to Florida to attend Full Sail Center for the Recording Arts in Orlando. Moved to Atlanta where I've lived for 7 years in a total of 10 different places including a closed down Kraft Cheese factory that was later condemned(for a brief period of 3 months, a fairly unpleasant experience though I did compose one of my favorite songs ever written there) Victor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:26:28 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Another Joni cover...maybe Well this just may be a cover that I would actually enjoy. According to the Pharmer's Almanac Vol. 3 (which is a book full of various Phish factoids, setlists, tour stories, covers, etc) Phish covered Help Me on April 10, 1993 along with Sugar Blue (I don't know who he/she is) who sang and played the harmonica. Now I was told a couple of years ago that Help Me is also the title of an old blues song, but until I hear it I still think it's Joni's song, although it's really unlikely. If I get my hands on it, I'll send Bob a copy of it. NP-The Slip, 6/7/96-Invisible Man - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:35:04 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: The Big Prize Ahh, a clever turn of a phrase! There is much more behind it though, isn't there? What's the album version of your post? There's no reason to distill it to a sound bite! Be verbose, man! Is Dylan the apple or the cheese? I contend that Bobby is the apple and Joni is the cheese. Cheese often improves with age. While apples, well, they forget to write melodies and tour endlessly, barking mono-syllables over power chords don't they? :) I love 'em both though. Now, where's the long version, Paul? "C'mon now, you've got ta try." > I think it is like comparing apples and cheeses. > > Paul I > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:38:49 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Prize In a message dated 10/12/00 11:23:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, edwilcox@students.wisc.edu writes: << Joni writes amazing songs and has a darn good voice to go along with it. I'd have to concur with Jim's declaration: Joni is THE best. ;) >> But you know what? Since Rose mentioned the Leonard Cohen website, I've been re-listening to his works and he really stands out beyond Joni. She may have moved into more complicated and sophisticated works, but she doesn't always come that close to Cohen's writings in many ways. At least that's what I'm thinking today, right now, here in Davis, CA. MG np: the ducks quacking from the backyard of Davis' ONLY home daycare and petting zoo. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:04:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: The Tip Top Prize sjc i can't help but make this confession yet once again: the first time i heard a dylan song was during the last jonifest, barely a few weeks ago!!!! or was it neil young all the time? the great authority on dylan is marian, so i should talk to her and get really started on dylan. but his catalogue is SO huge, i just don't have the energy or the inclination for another joni mitchell in my life. i devoted twenty years to the exclusive study of joni mitchell. when i think about dylan, i feel like an 80-year-old engineer who is told all of a sudden that he needs to get a degree in medicine too. call it narrow-mindedness, but with joni, wagner, strauss, rickie, and the rest of the artists that wrote and/or performed the music on my more than three thousand cd's i have quite enough yet to discover and study. i believe that on the verge of my forties, i'm already too late to change majors. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:05:00 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Fwd: to be a pin on some map, SOME vicarious thrill - NJC - --part1_3b.b1af380.2717c7cc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_3b.b1af380.2717c7cc_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: Murphycopy@aol.com Full-name: Murphycopy Message-ID: <55.bf67e4b.27167b69@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:26:49 EDT Subject: Re: to be a pin on some map, SOME vicarious thrill - NJC To: dogbyte@aloha.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 7 Hi, Dean: I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and was then very badly raised by a father who learned his parenting skills at Okinawa and a mother whose favorite past-times were chain smoking and pretending nothing was wrong. Luckily, the soulless Boston suburb in which I was brought up happened to be a short bus ride to the love-ins, sit-ins, riots, concerts, coffeehouses, and general cultural fireworks that made the Cambridge/Boston area the unique place it was in the late '60s and '70s. From '72 to '76 I went to college in Boston and lived in various city neighborhoods. Although I will always love Boston and I hope to live there again someday, by the late '80s I was ready to leave. So destiny took a hand and reached down and plucked me up and dropped me into a new job that I was suddenly offered in July of '88. That job was in Hawaii, which I guess sort of makes me a kamaina. I lived in Honolulu on Diamond Head in one of those tacky little apartment buildings on Kanaina Avenue that never seems to show up in the classic picture postcard views of Waikiki. Hawaii was beautiful, and I often miss it, but I only stayed there one year. I guess paradise just isn't all it can be when you have a 9 to 5 job downtown at the AmFac Towers. When I first moved there, I remember looking at people like they had two heads when they told me I'd miss the change of seasons, but they were right. Now I think maybe we become bio-chemically altered by the weather we've grown used to. In any case, I know that I was homesick because I remember lounging on some of the world's most beautiful beaches in mid-winter and missing old Cape Cod. So I moved closer to home, to New York City, without a job, and in a bad economy (1989, the last time a George Bush was President). I lived in an illegal sublet and freelanced a little bit for a few months, but times were hard. Then one morning, after a very long and dark night of the soul when I really didn't know what I'd do next, the phone rang and I had a great new job. (Oddly enough, my first major project at this job was a TV shoot in Hawaii!) I stayed in New York until '93. After four years in NYC I thought I deserved a break, so I moved to Martha's Vineyard for a year and did very little. When the money ran out in '94, it was time to get a job again. So after living on the islands of Oahu, Manhattan and Martha's Vineyard, I moved to Rhode Island, which isn't an island at all. Go figure. So for now you can put my pin on Providence, Rhode Island. But you may have to move it if that wanderlust hits again. Mahalo, --Bob - --part1_3b.b1af380.2717c7cc_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:16:18 EDT From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Prize In a message dated 10/12/00 9:48:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: << I've been re-listening to his works and he really stands out beyond Joni. She may have moved into more complicated and sophisticated works, but she doesn't always come that close to Cohen's writings in many ways. >> i gotta agree with mg here. musically there is probably no comparison, and joni is a true singer, where leonard is more of a stylist, but lyrically? leonard cohen is the songwriter who brought poetry to the pop song! his debut album, a masterpiece by anyone's estimation, "songs" opened the door with a wall banging swing that dylan had only unlocked. joni followed, and so did paul simon, and all the rest. but it was leonard cohen who elevated lyrics to poetry...real poetry...the kind that stands by itself, with or without accompaniment. listen to me! like i know what i am talking about! there should be a "in my humble opinion" in there somewhere... but for any of you unfamiliar with "songs"...give a listen. or, to prove my point, give a read. "he was just some joseph looking for a manger..." but overall, joni is still the best of her generation. a true mapmaker of the human heart. no doubt about it. peace, ric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:47:49 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Prize NJC (Leonard Cohen) In a message dated 10/12/00 7:23:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ricw1217@aol.com writes: << i gotta agree with mg here. musically there is probably no comparison, and joni is a true singer, where leonard is more of a stylist, but lyrically? leonard cohen is the songwriter who brought poetry to the pop song! >> Oh! I love it when people agree with me on things, (but, perversely hate it when people agree with the taste of Taylor's Ham, thus cutting into my loot). Seriously, one list member wondered what he missed and Ric's comment that Cohen is the songwriter that brought poetry to pop song is not an understatement. The soundtrack to "McCabe and Mrs. Miller" brought Cohen to the forefront of popular music back then, but I think that it was never top 40 stuff. In addition, Cohen seems to have been much more driven by his search for spiritual serenity than marketability. As for what people may have missed, buying the late 70's release, "The Best of Leonard Cohen" is a nice introduction. More than Joni, more than my pet gerbil, more than anything else, some of his songs have pointed me towards a greater understanding of love and its challenges and its longings and its "it." Witness this: You know my love goes with you As your love stays with me, It's just the way it changes Like the shoreline and the sea. If that's not a bedrock, then my name is Wilma. MG np: pencils scratching away at homework.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:42:41 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: to be a pin on some map/why there? NJC patrick, loving this thread, and after having heard all of lori fye's stories and never, ever been bored, adds: born in marin county, california, 1958, where i lived in corte madera til i was 5 and san anselmo til i was 18 went to one year of college in davis california (hi mg!) where i discovered that i wasn't an engineering major (boredom) and i was a homosexual, especially in the gay discos of: sacramento, ca. where i moved in 1977, where i discovered that i was a dancer, and i lived, went to college, and danced from 1977 to 1986 (with 1 1/2 years back in marin, also performing in that area, 1980-1982) 1986, in sac, had some money, some rootlessness and some thoughts about my career. almost by the toss of a die, i moved to new york city, and dear god i bless the random wind that blew me here. i was so meant for this city. i've lived in about 5 apartments in new york in the nearly 14 years. soon to abandon my beloved east village apartment, after 11 years, for a temporary brooklyn abode. learning to love change. patrick np - radiohead - kid a - morning bell - this album is fantastic! >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Lori >R. Fye >Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 10:38 PM > >Good thread! Here's my bit of self-indulgence (for >some of you, some of this will be old news; hopefully >it won't all be boring). > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:09:09 EDT From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Prize NJC (Leonard Cohen) In a message dated 10/12/00 10:47:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal writes: << More than Joni, more than my pet gerbil, more than anything else, some of his songs have pointed me towards a greater understanding of love and its challenges and its longings and its "it." Witness this: You know my love goes with you As your love stays with me, It's just the way it changes Like the shoreline and the sea. If that's not a bedrock, then my name is Wilma. >> ah yes...."but let's not talk of love or chains or things we can't untie. your eyes are soft with sorrow - hey...that's no way to say goodbye." so beautiful. or peruse "song of isaac"...or "the stranger song"...or the luminous "suzanne"... so many wonderful songs. "like a bird on a wire, like a drunk in a midnight choir, i have tried in my way to be free." me too leonard. me too. peace! ric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:12:42 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: vicarious pinhood (NJC) quick and dirty, i'm a bizzy student ya know: October 14, 1975 around 2:30 p.m., born in Wheeler, TX, a small satellite town of Amarillo. Within two weeks, adopted and moved to Lubbock, TX, where I lived in one mobile home in two locations and one house in one location right next to one of the mobile ones. Left there in September 1993 for Chicago to begin college. Lived in two locations, then Moved to Cleveland for just under three months in 1996 to do campaign work, after which I Returned to Chicago, living w/ then bf Sean and his roommates. Jan 1997, moved to DC, settled in Adams Morgan with a roommate and, eventually, Sean. September 1999, returned to Chicago to finish college, now single and living alone. Which brings me to today, one day shy of 25 years after the story's beginning. - --Michael, feeling distinctly non-kid for the first time (I would say feeling old, but that would get me in biiiiig trouble...) NP: Donna Summer, "Love to Love You Baby" (the 16min+ version available on the Casablanca Records box set...) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Sometimes I contemplate moving to a warmer place But then the lake and skyline give me a warm embrace." - --Common, "Reminding Me (Of Sef)" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:16:26 EDT From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: The Top Prize NJC (Leonard Cohen) ps. and who else could write a line like THIS? "everybody knows you love me baby, everybody knows you really do. and everybody knows that you've been faithful, give or take a night or two. everbody knows you've been discreet, but there were so many people you just had to meet without your clothes...and everybody knows..." only leonard, that's who.. ok ok. i'll stop now... (see what you started MG?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:18:55 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: math oops (NJC) I meant 2 days shy... I'm trying to will Friday into being! :-) - --M NP: Marilyn Manson, "User Friendly" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:53:32 -0700 From: Michael Paz Subject: Apples and Cheeses and songs to play Scott wrote: >"In an early (before the studio album was released) live performance of this >song Joni sang "grapes and cheeses." I think "apples" with two syllables >instead of one ("grapes") fits the musical structure better and was, as you >wrote, more "convenient."" Scott- I remember apples and cheeses being very in with the hippie chicks back in the day. Along with tea and certain wines. I know Joni did alot of good for the marketing of a certain German white rhine wine. I consumed a few bottles or so and I do recall being served apples and cheeses whilst I played songs of joy and peace and some Blue Nun to swash it all down with. which brings me to, I saw (seemingly) the film of the Year tonight Almost Famous and I too loved it very much. There was SO much there yet I felt it was lacking too and I would have liked to see other bands besides Stillwater (altho liked them plenty). I was teary eyed thru the whole thing laughing and choking up and so many of the scenes. Dear old mom was my fave and I think I want to have Kate Hudsons children, my gawd what a babe, and she did a damn fine job as head band aid. Hope everyone is well Michael NP-Lulaby of Birdland-Tito Puente Live at Birdland NYC Dancemania '99 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 02:02:34 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Apples, Cheeses and Liebfraumilch In a message dated 10/13/00 1:03:33 AM, jmichaelpaz@telocity.com writes: << Along with tea and certain wines. I know Joni did alot of good for the marketing of a certain German white rhine wine. >> Joni sang: Seventeen glasses Rhine wine Milk of the Madonna Clandestine And she also sang: Well I've got this berth and this roll down blind I've got this fold up sink And these rocks and these cactuses going by And a bottle of German wine to drink That "certain German wine" Michael mentions was Liebfraumilch, I believe, which was big in the '70s and '80s. It's a sweet white wine that goes with things like apples and cheeses. I've been told that Liebfraumilch means, surprise surprise, virgin's milk, or, as Joni says, milk of the Madonna. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 02:49:29 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Apples, Cheeses and Liebfraumilch In a message dated 10/13/00 2:07:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: << Joni sang: Seventeen glasses Rhine wine Milk of the Madonna Clandestine >> Personally, while I enjoyed plenty of bottles of liebfraumich in my late teens and 20s, I think this is one of Joni's worst lyrics because she perverts the pronunciation of clandestine, the preferred pronunciation of which has a silent e on the end and the accent on the middle syllable. Pronunciation: klan-'des-t&n Maybe she should have tried to rhyme something with liebfraumilch instead of Rhine wine. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 03:58:55 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: Liebfraumilch njc now you won't believe this new stroke of synchronicity, but Liebfraumilch is on sale at the store on the corner this week. $3,70 a bottle!!!! i'll buy a few bottles for some friends coming over for dinner tomorrow night. i'll make magsie's potato salad to go with chicken cutlets. i was going to take some Liebfraumilch to ashara's in september. i thought it would be fun to have some milk of the madonna, clandestine, but then i'm always scared of customs. wallyk, np: rickie lee jones, ''for no one'', for no one except myself. >>>>>>That "certain German wine" Michael mentions was Liebfraumilch, I believe, which was big in the '70s and '80s. It's a sweet white wine that goes with things like apples and cheeses. I've been told that Liebfraumilch means, surprise surprise, virgin's milk, or, as Joni says, milk of the Madonna. --Bob ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #543 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?