From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #515 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Tuesday, September 26 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 515 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] "For The Roses" Lyrics [WirlyPearl@aol.com] Re: The Arbutus Story ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Bjork (NJC) "dancing in the dark" [BarBearUh ] Tom Rush NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: What song, please? [MGVal@aol.com] Re: The Arbutus Story [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [MGVal@aol.com] pearl!!!!!!!!!!!!! ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: The Arbutus Story njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] julius on a roll njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] hammers, boards and nails ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: julius on a roll njc [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics ["Kakki" ] Re: Chicago Concert [Nancy ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics ["Kakki" ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: "For The Roses" Lyrics ["Eric Wilcox" ] Re: Joni Does Album Art for Rea ["Kakki" ] Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: What song, please? [jan gyn ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:25:09 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) i was surprised and said exactly...".you don't sound like gay > men...you sound like chauvenist men This was a lovely, well thought out post, Pat and I don't mean to say this is true of anybody that is part of the JMDL community - but I do feel compelled to point out that in the above statement, the two are not mutually exclusive. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:55:01 EDT From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/25/00 8:41:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cassysweet@email.msn.com writes: << >IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: >>> Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, I'm sure there are some other ideas.<<< others believed that: >>>It seems pretty likely that she's talking about crucifixion<<< I had yet another interpretation. When buildings are condemned they are boarded up, the windows and doors covered by hammering boards across them with nails. it never ceases to amaze me how we open each other's minds. Cassy I agree more with Cassy's interpretation of those lines. I think "getting a taste for worship" has nothing at all to do with religion, crosses or Jesus. I think she means getting to really enjoy having people adore and worship HER. And just when she's at that point where she expects the worship, even craves it, it stops. Show's over. Suddenly she's not hot anymore, someone else becomes the new media darling, her 15 minutes are up. Hence, the reference to "bringing out the hammers and the boards and the nails....as in "this building is condemned". It especially seems appropriate in relation to the earlier line where she says "things I really can't give up just yet" followed by her criticism of the band that seems to be taking her place on TV. Actually, in context with the lyrics before "a taste for worship" it's hard for me be see it being interpreted any other way and have it make any sense. What I would like to hear are interpretations of the first lines below... " I guess I seem ungrateful With my teeth sunk in my hand...". For The Roses <...I guess I seem ungrateful With my teeth sunk in the hand That brings me things I really can't give up just yet Now I sit up here The critic! And they introduce some band But they seem so much confetti Looking at them on my TV set Oh the power and the glory Just when you're getting a taste for worship They start bringing out the hammers And the boards And the nails > Pearl (I think this is actually one of the first times in almost 3 years that I have actually analyzed a lyric out loud to the list. Hope I explained it OK.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:03:30 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: The Arbutus Story Like > there's this street in Vancouver called Arbutus Street, and they tried to > transplant a whole lot of Arbutus trees to line it, you know, just like Elm > street's always lined with elms, and maple street's lined with maples...so > they put in all these arbutus trees, and they just said 'forget it', you > know, just kamikaze'd out......." Great story! Thanks for the transcription, Bob! Arbutus grow all over Seattle. They call them madronas here. Apparently some of the early settlers of the area thought they were magnolias (there is some similarity in appearance) and named a hill that had a lot of madronas growing on it, Magnolia Bluff. There is also a section of Seattle called Madrona. But I don't think 'it was just the madronas rustling and the bumpin of the logs' sounds nearly as intriguing as 'it was just the arbutus rustling' (had to get some Joni content in there somewhere!) Siquomb knows best! Class dismissed! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 19:12:01 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics What I would like to hear > are interpretations of the first lines below... > > " I guess I seem ungrateful > With my teeth sunk in my hand...". > > For The Roses She's talking about being critical of the music business. She's biting the hand that feeds her. I have to go along with the crucifixion interpretation of the hammers & boards and nails line. The performer has been enjoying her success, the public adulation, the critical acclaim and then suddenly, no warning, no nothing (are you reading this Colin?) she's being metaphorically crucified by both the critics and the public. My two centavos Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:17:41 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/25/00 10:03:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, WirlyPearl@aol.com writes: << Suddenly she's not hot anymore, someone else becomes the new media darling, her 15 minutes are up. Hence, the reference to "bringing out the hammers and the boards and the nails....as in "this building is condemned". >> My interpretation is at least consistent with this in that a condemned building is ready for "burial." The crucifixion one seems more popular, but I suggest it's a leap of faith to get from boards to a cross, which is made of posts, not boards. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:40:12 -0400 From: BarBearUh Subject: RE: Bjork (NJC) "dancing in the dark" one thing that's rather different about this movie is that it was shot on DV cameras, which are a high-end consumer video cameras (the movie "celebration" was also shot on DV). the better of these cameras cost about $5K, as opposed to the $100-150k hollywood rigs. 10 minutes of tape costs less than $10, where 10 minutes of 35mm costs a few hundred. i read that for the musical scenes they shot with up to 100 cameras running at once, which i'm sure will be cause for some innovative results. barbara np: taj mahal, giant step ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:45:07 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Tom Rush NJC Tom Rush is amazing in concert. He makes the songs he does of others, his very own. He is one of the best solo acts I have ever seen & is REALLY funny. Don't miss him! I, too, am sorry I will have to miss his BDay on St. Thomas! ******************************************** Kate Bennett featured this month at Taylor Guitars www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/ www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:53:45 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: What song, please? In a message dated 9/25/00 4:31:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << >> Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to make a coffin? >> Well, I always thought that what fit best was being crucified. Boards and nails to make the cross and then hang you up and leave you there. MG with her Catholic roots showing... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:02:56 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: The Arbutus Story In a message dated 9/25/00 6:07:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << ince the topic was "For the Roses", I thought some of you might enjoy this story she introduces the song with in her 1974 Radio City Concert... >> Wow. Thanks so much. Loved it. I have a few concert tapes, but it's next to impossible for me to "hear" and "understand" what she is saying. Thanks again, MG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:15:07 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) In a message dated 9/25/00 8:38:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Siresorrow@aol.com writes: << ne of the things i have learned this year, my 15th year in marriage that is not always happy or peaceful, is that we become something different in relationship. we change to a new form that we had no idea of when we first met. and when we have children, we really change to a new form and become something that we were not ever before. sometimes, that's uncomfortable and sometimes, it's unliveable. and sometimes, we let go of personal dreams and desires for the good of this new thing that we have become, even when it seems wrong or hurts to do so. and the few times when i have been able to do this, in spite of the many times i have failed at doing this...i have found this new thing to be much more beautiful than i ever was before. and i find myself wishing i was more able and willing to let go. >> Pat, This was a lovely post, especially the part that I snipped out above. For many years, I was a jerk in relationships. Bore me? I'm gone. Step over some ever changing, MG-defined line? I'm outta there. Annoy me with mawkish clinging? Adios, pal. Neglect to carry the snacks necessary for my monstrous ego? Hit the road! I'm sure that somewhere there's some building where I have a bronze plaque in the Jerk Hall of Fame. It took me years to learn what you so wonderfully wrote out. Years to understand that you can be yourself and yet run past the fear and hurt and unknown to put aside something of yourself to gain the greater "us." Hopefully someday I'll get to practice what I think I now know and you are testifying to be true. (:-D Thanks again for a very thoughtful post. MG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:24:02 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: pearl!!!!!!!!!!!!! pearl, how great to hear from you!!!! where were you last laborday weekend, by the way, you bad bad bad girl???? we missed you! wallyk > > Pearl > > (I think this is actually one of the first times in almost 3 years that > I have actually analyzed a lyric out loud to the list. Hope I explained > it OK.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:27:24 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: The Arbutus Story njc bob-o! thanks so much for this story! first time i've heard it. wallyk, np: your rickie lee jones tape. rickie is GOD. thanks for the gift! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:29:37 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: julius on a roll njc julius! your posts are so f_ing stupendous!!! write at least one a day, please. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:19:25 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: hammers, boards and nails Yah, I agree- crucifixition makes lots of sense. I always saw a gallows being built on this line, but it's death too. Crucifixition makes more sense. Thanks to all for sharing. Getting back to a "tape" tree, who's in? Just Michael and me?? Who's in?? All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:37:41 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: julius on a roll njc Wally k says: << julius! your posts are so f_ing stupendous!!! write at least one a day, please.>> Thanks so much, my friend. Glad you're all better (aren't you?). But be careful what you wish for...you might just get it! Thanks again. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:33:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics >" The crucifixion one seems more popular, but >I suggest it's a leap of faith to get from boards to a cross, >which is made of posts, not boards. Well, actually the little gold crucifixes worn by Catholics and some other Christian denominations are flat and look like boards, not posts. So that is probably the reference point for Joni and a lot of the rest of us (not having been there to see they were actually posts). I also always saw it as a metaphor for the crucifixtion of Jesus. To remember the basic lesson from Sunday School ;-) Jesus was at the very height of his popularity and acclaim right before being put to death,. The Roman Emperor (I forget his name) got angry that Jesus was getting so much attention (and possible power) away from him. Rome had jurisdiction over Israel at the time and the emperor thought Jesus (who some were calling the "King of the Jews") could be a political threat to him and so ordered his death. I think Joni is identifying with this metaphorically - she was also reaching the peak of her commercial popularity and that's always a dangerous spot to be in because so much of our culture has a tendency to like to tear down the very thing they elevate after awhile. But the coffin and condemned building metaphors work along the same lines of thought, too. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:47:15 +0100 From: Nancy Subject: Re: Chicago Concert Hi Phyliss, Nope, that was *not* me!! Thanks for the clarification; I guess Amy was there! Nancy/IA Phyliss Ward wrote: > > Nancy wrote: > > > I can't help but wonder if my sister-in-law and I were two of the > > women you heard talking after the concert! LOL! > > Ha! I thought of that too but I doubt it seriously. Why? Well, I didn't want to share > this with the whole group but the woman was saying something like "the hell with Joni > Mitchell, I saw Amy Grant tonight". That wouldn't have been you would it???? Also, we > were walking into the hotel, Doubletree I think, to meet some JMDL members. > -- > Phyliss > mailto:pward@datacourse.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:51:16 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/26/00 12:46:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << Well, actually the little gold crucifixes worn by Catholics and some other Christian denominations are flat and look like boards, not posts. So that is probably the reference point for Joni and a lot of the rest of us (not having been there to see they were actually posts). >> I'm only going by recollections of Charleton Heston in the movies, but also think of boards as being cut by the kinds of saws they didn't have in the 1st century. Seems to me board wood is an invention of a period later than that. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:46:25 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics Paul wrote: > I'm only going by recollections of Charleton Heston in the >movies, but also think of boards as being cut by the kinds of >saws they didn't have in the 1st century. Seems to me board >wood is an invention of a period later than that. No, I don't think so. Remember Joseph was a carpenter. And didn't they build their boats and arks with board wood, rather than posts? ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:00:43 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/26/00 12:59:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << No, I don't think so. Remember Joseph was a carpenter. And didn't they build their boats and arks with board wood, rather than posts? ;-) Kakki >> Maybe. What's a cubit? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:06:06 -0500 From: "Eric Wilcox" Subject: RE: "For The Roses" Lyrics Indeed, the original cross was not made out of 2X4s-- it was probably more like the posts previously described. However, being an art history student-- I know a lot about religious subjects in art. Though the entire Passion occurred in the near east, artists, particularly after the 15th century, will comnly depict Christian occurances "in their own back yard." (as we art historians are inclined to say). The characters wear clothing that is related to the current fashion. The people look all pale and northern-European like or sun-tanned Italian, and the landscape or cityscape will be Bruges or Antwerp or Florence or Rome. It has traditionally been a custom of artist to portray religious figures in the most current time period; in the most current fashion. The cross is not immune. In our modern day, we've assumed that it was made of common boards. We don't even think that maybe there were no Menards stores in Jerusalem. Yet classically, you'll see the cross made of boards. Regardless of all of this banter-- the fact is when we talk about board and nails and pair that up with religion-- the connotation is that of the crucifiction of Christ. Of course there are other interpretations (I've been very impressed by those that shared other opinions)-- but that's why people make that association. eric - --- eric wilcox edwilcox@students.wisc.edu "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious." -Oscar Wilde - --- - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of IVPAUL42@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 11:51 PM To: KakkiB@worldnet.att.net; Joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/26/00 12:46:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << Well, actually the little gold crucifixes worn by Catholics and some other Christian denominations are flat and look like boards, not posts. So that is probably the reference point for Joni and a lot of the rest of us (not having been there to see they were actually posts). >> I'm only going by recollections of Charleton Heston in the movies, but also think of boards as being cut by the kinds of saws they didn't have in the 1st century. Seems to me board wood is an invention of a period later than that. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:02:52 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni Does Album Art for Rea Julius wrote: > Thanks for pointing the back cover out, Kakki. I wasn't sure >if Joni had done that part, but I noticed her signature at >bottom right upon second glance. I checked out the liner >notes too. It says: "The portrait on the cover, by his dear >friend Joni Mitchell, was done at the age of three-times->seven." That's about circa STAS, isn't it? Yes! I looked this up again at work (where I have a better and bigger monitor) and it is dated '67. I love that back cover - it's better than the STAS art - and I saw two little fairies or elves with flower petal caps in the flowers. There were also some seagulls and other birds in the painting. I wonder if this may have been part of a "Gandalfian" series she was creating at the time. In the front portrait of Rea I noticed some more seagulls, a streetlight and some power transformers and electric lines. I think he should lend the works to the next "Voices" tour ;-) And hey Mark in Seattle, Scott in Port Angeles and Catherine T. soon to be in Seattle - I saw that David Rea lives on Bainbridge and is playing at the Main St. Ale House in Kingston almost every week through October. I'd loved to make a gathering there next time I come up! ;-) Kakki, over her posting limit for the day and saying goodnight . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:34:54 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: "For The Roses" Lyrics In a message dated 9/26/00 12:52:11 AM, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << The Roman Emperor (I forget his name) got angry that Jesus was getting so much attention (and possible power) away from him. >> According to The Life of Brian, that Emperor's name was Bigus Dickus. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:28:37 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: What song, please? >TanyerSCO@aol.com writes: ><< start bringing out the boards and the nails."> > >> >Does anyone disagree that her reference to hammers, boards and nails is to >make a coffin? > That's always been my interpretation, but with so many others on this list, >I'm sure there are some other ideas. >Paul I I first thought it was for a crucifix. Then I thought emery boards for fingernails. - -jan ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #515 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?