From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #511 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Sunday, September 24 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 511 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [Robert Holliston ] HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!(NJC) [Scott and Jody ] Happy Birthday! NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [catman ] Re: More "voices"? and Kids' Classics - SJC ["Diane Evans" ] Joni Book [catman ] Re: Joni Book ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Re: Joni Book [RoseMJoy@aol.com] newbee here ["Elaine Gross" ] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: New CD [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [michael w yarbrough ] Re: Joni Book ["Kakki" ] HAPPY BIRTHDAY! (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: newbee here (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: newbee here [pat holden ] Re: newbee here NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY! (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: raising kids (and some otherthoughts of mine). NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY! (NJC) [MGVal@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 03:44:45 -0700 From: Robert Holliston Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Michael and Colin, among others, have already addressed this and I applaud them. Some of my own thoughts: Louis Lynch wrote: > EVERY SINGLE gay friend of mine is embarrassed about the Etheridge split-up > -- it really doesn't help to advance gay rights. I work in a theater, and > it was the topic of conversation yesterday. Both gay and straight, people > thought it gave homosexuality a bad name. Unless every single gay friend of yours is personally acquainted with this couple, I don't understand what they have to be embarrassed about. This idea that public figures are obliged to serve as role models for the rest of us strikes me as specious and in need of closer scrutiny. I read that these women were together for 12 years (if this is true, their union lasted longer than Joni Mitchell's and Larry Klein's). Whatever. I don't consider it right or fair to ask for details or jump to conclusions about the divorces and separations of people I know, let alone two women I've never met. Their break-up is a highly personal matter and should be treated as such. Nobody's suggested that the break-up of Meg Ryan and Dennis Quaid should give heterosexuality a bad name (actually, two years ago during an intense thread about Matthew Shepard's murder, nobody suggested that his killers gave heterosexuality a bad name, either). > Remember, when it comes to public opinion, one negative public exposure > takes literally thousands of positive ones to overcome. Ask "Hanoi" Jane > Fonda about that. Interesting choice: it could as easily have been Senator McCarthy, Roy Cohn - or, to keep this in the entertainment world, Charlton Heston or John Wayne. I imagine Ms. Fonda would offer few apologies, and don't forget that at least two celebrated conservatives - Johnny Carson and National Reviewer film critic John Simon - went out of their way to let America know that they thought she was right. > I also received private posts from other people on the list, gay and > straight, who agree that the couple shouldn't have made such a big public > deal of their split -- or the fatherhood in the first place. It already was a big public deal. One question: why do only the people who disagree post publicly? > Perhaps if you'd stop racing to call me names, you could slow down and see > my point. Homosexuals want to be accepted in a world where more than 90% of > the population (actually, 97%) are heterosexual -- gays want "heteros" to > understand their viewpoints, and to acknowledge their rights to marry > publicly and raise children and have shared legal benefits. I'd be interested to know where you got that 97% statistic! (Presumably, you can quote a study...) I'd be even more interested to know why you think "gays want 'heteros' to understand their viewpoints." Like we all have the same ones! If nothing else you wrote was homophobic, this certainly is. First, we are not one and the same person - we have different viewpoints, and sometimes we even disagree. (Go figure.) We don't even wear the same color nail polish!! (this is a joke...) Second, what is the "right to marry publicly?" - the issue is more about being able to ensure that our Last Will and Testament is carried out, that our widow(er)s are not thrown into the street. Bottom line: all of this is about taxpayers' money. We pay taxes. Do the math! Third, and (to me) most important, why do you assume that I, as a gay guy, give a rat's ass whether you understand my "viewpoints"? > But, when it comes to making a minor attempt to understand why a "hetero" > like me might have a different viewpoint, forget it. Just call me a > homophobe and be done with it. And then call ME close minded. Actually, Michael has said that he alone used this word. Interestingly, during the Matthew Shepard thread, when we were bombarded with photos of people picketing his funeral, carrying placards saying "Matt in Hell" and "God hates Fags," it was Michael who reminded us that this was an example of Americans exercising their right to free speech, and that free speech is an essential right. One of many reasons I love and respect Mr. Yarbrough. > And, if you think I am homophobic, you'd better stay out of the deep South > and Utah, Buddy! Or Arkansas. Trust me, you can get gaybashed anywhere, no matter how "liberal" > I keep learning more and more about different lifestyles -- and this list > has been helpful. I appreciate the discourse, even some of the more peppery > stuff. > > Regards, > > Harper Lou Yada yada yada - whatever. When I first joined the JMDL over two and a half years ago, there was a lot of gay NJC stuff (i.e., "what are good gay movies," "why are there so many gay men on the JMDL," and others.). Within hours, there were posts suggesting that this was the Joni Mitchell Discussion List and not the Homosexual one. Fair enough. After a few months, I noticed that there were many NJC threads, and that no one complained about them (aside from the usual admonition to use NJC). So, I sent a (not) quite innocent post implying that there was obviously good NJC and bad NJC, and that gay NJC was very bad NJC. I got some pretty foul email - and so did the list. Here we have some gay-related NJC, generated by a straight. AND NOT ONE WORD from anyone about its appropriateness on the list. Two years later, I REST MY CASE Roberto, with hugs to many, especially Michael, Colin, and Julius ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 06:43:42 -0500 From: Scott and Jody Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!(NJC) Happy Birthday Bob!!!!!!! I happened to glance at our 'Life In Hell' calendar by Matt Groening ( one of your faves). On your birthday, Matt says: "Listen to some fine greasy rock by southern culture on the skids." So who are you going to listen to? Have a Great Day my dear pal! I've been away for a few days and want to wish Heather and Marian a Very Happy Belated Birthday!!!! Lot's of Love, jody ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 07:53:51 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Happy Birthday! NJC This guy has it all! Heart and humor and humility, striking good looks and awesome vocals - geeze, do you guys think I travel 3,000 miles each year to Ashara's for the tofu???? Happy, happy birthday, Mr. Muller!!! Making like Nestles and wishing you the very best! MG np "what is the sound of 8 kids sleeping....." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:33:04 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Thank you, Roberto, and well said. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 07:39:09 EST From: "Diane Evans" Subject: Re: More "voices"? and Kids' Classics - SJC Lindsay, We raised our daughter on an eclectic selection. That is, before she turned into a recacitrant teenager and chose her own noise. ;-D She heard opera from birth, plenty of classical (incl. all Mozart, some Prokofkiev, liberal amounts of Joni, Bessie Smith & Billie Holiday, Beatles, and other such standards). One of our favorite memories is of overhearing her, at the age of 4, telling her older cousins that they should listen to opera because it "flies like birds." The best of all is that now, at the age of 18, she is a tolerant individual with a creative heart, soul, and mind. Although she seems to prefer ICP, RadioHead, and the like, she stills occasionally tunes in to opera and other classical music. Plus she pays more attention as time goes by to lyrics as well as music. We believe her exposure to all types of music (her dad has been in a bluegrass band for much of her life, too) and art have contributed to her thinking abilities and conflict resolution orientation. As for traditional children's music, we didn't buy that stuff, we sang it ourselves in "baby jams" with her. When she was little all the recorded stuff generally available seemed so sanitized we didn't care much for it. Good luck, and I envy you the fun you're going to have with your children! You also wrote: >and also >the closing of "voices." I may have missed this along the way, but are >there any rumblings that the show will be exhibited anywhere else? Like >L.A.? I mean they've got the Getty any everything. Here, here! I'd like to see the show in Chicago, too! Maybe if we sent e-petitions to the various museums or larger galleries someone would realize there's enough interest to make it a good venture... Diane NP HOSL _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:20:14 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Birthday! NJC << Heart and humor and humility, striking good looks and awesome vocals - geeze, do you guys think I travel 3,000 miles each year to Ashara's for the tofu???? >> Wow, MG...this one's a keeper fer sher! I'm definitely spoiled by this group, I feel somewhat like the proverbial ugly duckling who blossomed into a swan once he found the right pond to swim around in! But you forgot to mention my Astaire-like dancing prowess! :~D Bob NP: Joni, "In France They Kiss On Main Street" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 10:42:53 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Birthday! NJC In a message dated 9/23/00 6:20:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy writes: << But you forgot to mention my Astaire-like dancing prowess! :~D >> Heck, I didn't forget! I just was sulking because I was never asked by you to dance, so I guess I really wouldn't know. (:-^ MG It's Garage Sale Day! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:03:05 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Birthday! NJC I just put my feet in the air and move them around. Fred Astaire 1899 - 1987 Oh is that what you were doing Bob? LOL Rosalita in NJ stepping a little lighter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 12:01:48 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Memories of Wally Breese Oooops, Num nut lead you to the wrong URL The photo that I was referring to in the above referenced post can be linked here: http://www.jonimitchell.com/GardenBehindA11198.jpg Sorry for the boo boo rose in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 12:10:41 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Birthday! NJC << I just was sulking because I was never asked by you to dance, so I guess I really wouldn't know. (:-^ >> If I didn't, it's only because I was intimidated by that newly-sculptured Grecian Goddess hardbody you were sportin'! :~) I hereby declare that I owe you a dance! :~) Bob NP: Fred Hersch, "My Old Man" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:24:23 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Wally Breese MG - thank you for your thoughtful recollections of our meet and greet at the Fog City Diner in San Francisco. That was "...the first time I met Wally..." Glad you enjoyed the vintage Eiffel Tower print from Steve's engravings collection. Wally and I had communicated for several months over email and the phone prior to the Fog City get together. The first topic I searched for on the internet (like so many JMDLers) was Joni Mitchell and up pops - www.well.com/wallyb (Jim, was this the original URL?) I sat spellbound and read every page and then I flashed off an email - "Hi Wally, nice site! I've got some photos from the Bread & Roses concerts - would you be interested in posting them on your site?" Wally sent me back an email asking how much I would charge him for use of the photos. I replied to the effect of, "The honor Sir, would be seeing my photos on your site. No money need be exchanged." Wally and I were fast friends - and spiritual brothers and sisters. I drove up to San Francisco about twice a month to spend time with him, sometimes by myself and other times Steve, Wally and I would bop around hunting for LPs, going to the movies or hanging out at Jim Johanson's wonderful flat. I was always happy to proofread new web pages and contribute whatever I could to the development of the site. Wally and I had a Joni quote for almost every situation in which we found ourselves - it was a running competition - who could come up with the most appropriate quotes on any given day - and it was great fun! Thanks for letting me reminisce on this bright blue Saturday morning. Somehow I become most nostalgic in Autumn. Leslie M. np: "Canned Music" Dan Hicks & His Hot Licks (live, Palookaville, Santa Cruz, 9-22-00) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:33:00 +0100 From: catman Subject: Joni Book I recieved as a gift today(from John) Joni's book with all her lyrics in. It has a slip in the front saying that due to circumstances etc etc the lyrics to TTT were not included. This book would have been more inviting if they had included more photo's of Joni. the one on the front is excellent and flattering. I also almost got the bio by Hinton but recalled it being trashed so much here on the list I left it on the shelf. - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:39:04 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: Joni Book >I recieved as a gift today(from John) Joni's book with all her lyrics in. It has a slip in >the front saying that due to circumstances etc etc the lyrics to TTT were not included. >This book would have been more inviting if they had included more photo's of Joni. the >one >on the front is excellent and flattering. >I also almost got the bio by Hinton but recalled it being trashed so much here on the >list >I left it on the shelf. What I didn't like about Brian Hinton's book was the allegation that during the later 1970's Joni started taking a lot more drugs and that he could tell this by the potos of the period and their 'clear eyed' quality that was an obvious side effect... Please. The quality of photos just got better and that Norman Seeff is very good for lighting eyes. Some photographers do it well, others don't... Jamie Zoob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:55:17 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Book I have that book too Catman and I agree the picture on the cover is very flattering. The jacket photo was by Herb Ritts. I love the ferns and the rather large tree. It looks to be a tropical rain forest of some sort. Does anyone know where this photo was taken? Wally signed my book with a little note. It read: Thank you for being a fan of Joni Mitchell and her homepage. Love, Wally Breese www.jonimitchell.com I will treasure it always Rose in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 14:14:35 EDT From: "Elaine Gross" Subject: newbee here Hi Everyone! My first post here. I never met Wally but my brother Brian has told me about him. I have been reading, learning and absorbing for about a week now and just wanted to say hi. I totally agree with Kate. Being a single mom raising a daughter who almost died at birth, I have living proof that a child who has been hugged every day and told every single day of her life "I love you", they will be strong and survive even the crumbling of the home around them. Cherish them always! Brian and Pat, I love you both. Elaine _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:44:34 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) > Here we have some gay-related NJC, generated by a straight. AND NOT ONE WORD > from anyone about its appropriateness on the list. > Two years later, > I > REST > MY > CASE > > Roberto, I wasn't going to weigh in on this thread but after reading Roberto's eloquent post this morning & taking into account all of Michael's & Colin's thoughtful words on the subject, I somehow feel I have to. It's unfortunate that the actions of a high profile couple who just happen to be a same sex couple lead some people to draw erroneous conclusions about an entire segment of society. Never mind the countless times we've read about the outrageous & truly reprehensible behavior of public figures who are heterosexual. When a lesbian couple has children by unconventional means and then breaks up, too many people shake their heads & fall back on the old misconceptions that 'those people', meaning all gay or lesbian people, are irresponsible, flaky and incapable of sustaining meaningful relationships. So, unfair as it is, I think it's true that the split between Melissa & Julie does create bad 'publicity' for the gay rights movement. However, I don't think anybody has the right to expect Melissa & Julie to live exemplary lives for the sake of gay rights. They are mere mortals, after all, in spite of the spot light that shines so glaringly on them. And I agree with all the others who have written that none of us knows the circumstances of the breakup or how the couple is handling it with regard to their children. People should know better than to make broad generalizations out of a small kernel of truth but unfortunately ignorance and some of the more negative aspects of human nature lead them to do just that. Finally I have to comment on Roberto's remarks at the end of his post. I have been on this discussion list since the beginning. I've seen flame wars flare up & die down and people leave the list because of hurt feelings, time & again. One bone of contention that has come up over & over again is the 'NJC' controversy. Now that we have an alternative for 'only Joni' people, the problem doesn't come up much anymore. But before the existence of a separate list it was remarkable how some NJC threads could run on for days & days and no-one raised one little peep of an objection. But just about every time that I can remember, whenever there was a discussion that involved any kind of gay issue or topic, it wasn't very long before somebody complained about it being 'too much NJC' or 'can we move on from this topic, please?' So as much as it pains me to say so, I have to say that I believe that what Roberto said is true. Some NJC topics are ok and some are not. It's a dreary thing to feel like you can't talk openly and freely about yourself without catching flak for it. Of course, the only thing to do is to go on talking anyway. I also believe that there are many people here who are not narrow in their thinking and don't want to censor anybody who isn't deliberately trying to be offensive. Those people are the reason I've continued to participate in the JMDL. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:22:57 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Im not going to comment on the E&E thread (although Mark is pretty correct in his assesment) but I am going to comment on the "NJC" angle of the original thread. I think he has accurately depicted the past experience on the JMDL. This is I believe my 3rd or 4th year. It is true that NJC threads can go on for a long time with little if any objection but then when the subject involves certain subjects (he referrs to "gay" issues) then a holler and objection to that thread springs up. There are any number of subjects that seem to raise an immediate objection etc etc. the bottom line is there are (or should be) two very strong rules that shouldnt require a formal JMDL policy. (1) any one should be allowed to post anything without some faction resenting it and raising cain on the list itself. THAT is a waste of bandwith.. and (2) everyone should watch and practice self government on what they allow THEMSELVES to post. In olden days there was this thing called "civility". people would automatically refrain from broaching subjects that they know would raise hackles etc. Of course nowadays people are on the one hand more forcefully asserting their views and "rights". At the same time tolerance of various views has become a very subjective matter. The purpose of the Newsgroup was to foster (or is it fester) greater love appreciation or understanding of the art(s) of Joni Mitchell. Even though Ms. Joni might sing about certain subjects it should prompt us all to refrain from too much editorializing. All this of course would lead to a repressed psyche of the listers as a whole. Some will never stop. Some will never post. having said all this I am led to the conclusion that (1) we should all promote and consider civility first in anything we post (2) if someone fails to post an NJC post as NJC we should all simply let it go unless the matter grows into something intolerable. After all it is a forum whether it is labeled as such or not. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 16:22:06 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: New CD Believe me, I eager for it to get out there, but the process has slowed down and I am not sure we'll have it this year. It's good, though! DL ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:46:01 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Mark wrote: >So, unfair as it is, I think it's true that the split >between Melissa & Julie does create bad 'publicity' for the gay rights >movement. Some, perhaps many, will probably take that view from it, for sure. On that you and Harper Lou are right. But what about the other obvious "lesson" from this, which hasn't even been mentioned yet? The lesson that lack of marriage rights itself discourages "stable" "families"? A preemptive disclaimer: marriage rights for anyone, including same-sex couples, are pretty damn low on my list of priorities for a multitude of reasons I won't go into here. While a low priority, however, I do believe we should have them. Ok, I feel better. On to the point... I worked for a sociologist this summer who has recently released a book in which she argues, on the basis of empirical evidence, that married straightcouples, despite high divorce rates, remain together longer than unmarried, cohabiting straight couples. A host of legal and social ramifcations discourage splitting up until the factors weigh pretty heavily in divorce's favor, ramifications that don't hold for a non-married couple. When the going gets rough, non-married couples are more likely to split. Guess what? Etheridge and Cypher are a non-married couple. They have no other choice. What is more, there are far fewer legal guidelines for child custody after a break-up such as this. Most likely, Etheridge has no official custody of her two children. If things turn less than civil in this process, things could get very painful for the children indeed. But not because lesbians are less capable of handling marriage rights. It's because lesbians don't *have* marriage rights. This "episode," if it can be taken to represent anything, can certainly symbolize the need for same-sex marriage and childbearing rights at least as much as it undermines them. - --Michal NP: Lipps, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:44:57 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: newbee here elaine!!! as brian would say: ''WELCOME HOME!!!!'' wallyk > Hi Everyone! My first post here. I never met Wally but my brother Brian has > told me about him. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 14:35:06 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni Book >The jacket photo was by Herb Ritts. I love the ferns and the > rather large tree. It looks to be a tropical rain forest of some >sort. Does anyone know where this photo was taken? Hi Rose, It was taken in the garden at her house in Bel Air. (Recall that I saw this mentioned in Vanity Fair). It's one of the best photos I've ever seen, period. We had an unusual run of very rainy, tropical-like seasons here in the 90s which probably contributed greatly to that lush profusion of ferns. ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 14:38:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY! (NJC) A big happy F-ing birthday to Heather, Marian, Bob, Steve, and Victor! Who else is coming up, WallyK?? I love Librans and always wished it was my sign! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:10:30 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) > This "episode," if it can be taken to represent anything, can > certainly symbolize the need for same-sex marriage and childbearing > rights at least as much as it undermines them. Excellent points & well stated as always. Thank you, Michael. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 20:25:17 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: newbee here (NJC) In a message dated 9/23/00 2:18:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grosslanie@hotmail.com writes: << Hi Everyone! My first post here. I never met Wally but my brother Brian has told me about him. I have been reading, learning and absorbing for about a week now and just wanted to say hi. >> Hi Elaine! Welcome to the JMDL! If you are Brian's sister, then you *must* already be a Joni fan. AND if you are anything like your brother, then you are a real sweetie too! I look forward to reading further posts from you, and finding out what your favorite Joni cd's are. Jimmy, who loves Brian and Pat (mags) too! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:02:05 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: newbee here Elaine Gross wrote: > Hi Everyone! My first post here. I never met Wally but my brother Brian has > told me about him. I have been reading, learning and absorbing for about a > week now and just wanted to say hi. > > I totally agree with Kate. Being a single mom raising a daughter who almost > died at birth, I have living proof that a child who has been hugged every > day and told every single day of her life "I love you", they will be strong > and survive even the crumbling of the home around them. Cherish them always! > > Brian and Pat, I love you both. > > Elaine My dear Elaine.. welcome welcome!!! I have only just received your post, Brian had to forward it to me, for some reason or other, it didnt come to my box. Another in a series of mysteries today. I am so happy to see you have joined our Joni family, and as Brian will say ... Welcome Home. You are a very special woman and I know we are all very fortunate to have you here with us. Thank you for being there for Brian, knowing that you are there makes the temporary distance between us much easier to bear. Your post about life as a single mom was very touching and brought me to tears. I can relate in every way and send you lots of support in the day to day. Hope to see you soon. and btw, I love you too. And so does your big bro. love Mags > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 23:47:35 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: newbee here NJC << Hi Everyone! My first post here. I never met Wally but my brother Brian has told me about him. I have been reading, learning and absorbing for about a week now and just wanted to say hi. >> You're Brian Gross' sister? As his honorary bro, I guess that means *we're* kin as well! :~) Welcome, Elaine! Bob NP: Jaco's Solo, 09/12/79 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:07:48 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY! (NJC) << A big happy F-ing birthday to Heather, Marian, Bob, Steve, and Victor! Who else is coming up, WallyK?? I love Librans and always wished it was my sign! ;-) >> The way I figger, it's a real popular week for birthdays since it is 9 months after Christmas! I wonder how many lurkers out there also have birthdays in this time span? I'd love it if you'd send me a private message and let me know... As for me, it was another typical 23rd. Springsteen and Ray Charles stopped by and we all celebrated our birthdays together. Ray took us for a joy ride, that's always good for a laugh or two! :~) Bob Joni, "Raised On Robbery" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:25:07 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: raising kids (and some otherthoughts of mine). NJC In a message dated 9/22/00 2:36:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: << As for kids & divorce, what I have learned from experience (from both sides now) is that what is of primary importance in raising happy healthy kids is that the kids know that they are loved & treasured & wanted by their parents. And that the parents have similar values so that their children are not torn up by two opposing veiwpoints. >> I was reading a novel of the involved some kids from divorced households and one character commented that the old saying that kids adapt is very far from the truth. They don't adapt to broken homes as much as mutate from the pain. I think that is very close to the truth. My children are children of divorce. My exes and I share similar values in many ways. All three of them know that they are loved and treasured by the main parent, (which is me), and the absent parent. We've never really argued over much with regards to S, MC and L, although we've had our arguments and disagreements. (hmm, if we didn't, perhaps we should have stayed married! (:-0 ) Regardless of daily affirmations of love and counseling, all three have suffered severe sadness and melancholy on their way to acceptance and peace. Many facets of their personalities have changed in ways that say "mutate." I have seen my middle child, once so full of life and sparkle, become almost a mini-adult. Not in terms of being a precocious caretaker, but in terms of maturing her psyche ahead of schedule in order to reconcile the pain of being "abandoned." Her sparkle has come back, but it is a prism with its share of clouds. Until just last year, both of my youngest kids slept best when they slept with me, so deep was their need for reassurance and contact. For my oldest, sitting next to me didn't count unless she was also shaving off half my thigh in the process. I have no doubt that it was love that pulled them through those times. But it was a love that was almost the equivalent of superhuman strength during times of extreme stress. Kinda makes everyday living a luxury on par with caviar or Taylor's Ham. And I'm just a dull, ordinary person of modest means. I can't begin to imagine the pressure the Etheridge's children will feel with the burden of cult celebrity. Makes you wish that either society would not put so much pressure on people to fit the status quo or that people were deep enough into enlightenment to not let it matter. I think that I've posted something similar to this before, but I will do it again in light of the gay theme. I say a hearty "fuhgeddaboutit" to teaching tolerance and acceptance of our gay brothers and sisters, (or anyone, really). Who wants to be "tolerated" or "accepted" for something as primal as who we love? I "tolerate" the triple digit weather out here. I "accept" the fact that my 19 year old may never get a summer job or driver's license. But things are just the way they are when I look outside and see trees; a couple of oaks, a silver maple and a host of others, and it's all wonderful and awe inspiring. And just the way things should be. Thank you God(dess). Awright, I'm off the soapbox now. MG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 00:26:53 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY! (NJC) In a message dated 9/23/00 9:12:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << As for me, it was another typical 23rd. Springsteen and Ray Charles stopped by and we all celebrated our birthdays together. Ray took us for a joy ride, that's always good for a laugh or two! :~) >> Yes, but did you dance??? MG ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #511 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?