From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #509 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Friday, September 22 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 509 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni Mitchell MP3 FTP Site! [Andrew Baio ] Diana Krall (NJC) [Joseph Palis ] Re: DVD Decor etcNJC [catman ] they died too young [Robert Holliston ] Re: re. Died too young (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Joni Mitchell MP3 FTP Site! (NJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: re. Died too young (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] New CD [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Joni Mitchell MP3 FTP Site! (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Died Too Young - SJC [pat holden ] Re: Diana Krall (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [Louis Lynch ] Re: Chicago Concert [Phyliss Ward ] Re: Chicago Concert [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [catman ] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [michael w yarbrough ] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [catman ] More "voices"? and Kids' Classics - SJC [Lindsay Moon ] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [JRMCo1@aol.com] joni day [catman ] RE: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [michael w yarbrough ] Taming the Tiger: Man from Mars [James O Phillips ] Re: MP3 FTP site? ["Reuben Bell" ] RE: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [Louis Lynch ] Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Stevie Wonder ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: More "voices"? and Kids' Classics - SJC ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 00:00:58 -0700 From: Andrew Baio Subject: Joni Mitchell MP3 FTP Site! Okay, the MP3 FTP site is all set up. Just fire up your favorite FTP client (CuteFTP, Fetch, WS-FTP, etc.) and head to: Host: waxy.org Username: joni Password: joni Feel free to pass this on to your Joni-loving friends. Please contribute if you can... The more people that do, the better it will be. Oh, and read the login message. Thanks all. -- Andy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:44:44 +0800 (PHT) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Diana Krall (NJC) and you can check out any of her fabulous albums: STEPPIN' OUT ONLY TRUST YOUR HEART ALL FOR YOU: A dedication to the Nat King Cole Trio LOVE SCENES WHEN I LOOK IN YOUR EYES my personal favorite is ONLY TRUST YOUR HEART if only for her lusty vocals on `Is You Aint or Is You Is My Baby'. or you can access www.dkrall.com joseph (who was smitten with Diana Krall when she performed in Manila last April) On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > Hi Nancy. Her name is Diana Krall. Now peel me a grape... :-) > > -Julius > > Nancy writes: > > << Hello, > > I watched the Tribute to Joni Mitchell earlier this year. I am hoping > that someone knows who the woman is that played "A Case of You". I > would like to hear more of her music. > > Thanks! >> > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:49:12 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: DVD Decor etcNJC Hi Jason-the code for making my DVD(Wharfdale 750) into a region free player was very simple. Just tapped in a 4 digit number on the remote. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 02:24:42 -0700 From: Robert Holliston Subject: they died too young some jazzers who died way before their time: Bessie Smith Bix Beiderbecke Charlie Christian Charlie Parker Dinah Washington Scott LeFaro Jaco Pastorious These are all artists who died in their 20s or 30s. Losing Billie Holiday (at 44, my age) and Bill Evans (at 49) seems premature, too. For the moment, that's all.... Roberto ps. also Phil Ochs ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:43:16 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: re. Died too young (NJC) Julius wrote: >And Mama Cass Elliott, too. Don't even start with >the chicken choking myth, either. That's just not true. I was about to mention Cass - but I can't believe (although I may have missed it) that no one has mentioned one of the great poets (IMO), Jim Morrison? Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 07:30:46 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell MP3 FTP Site! (NJC) In a message dated 9/22/00 3:18:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, andy@kickmedia.com writes: << Just fire up your favorite FTP client (CuteFTP, Fetch, WS-FTP, etc.) >> Andy, that's easy for you to say :~) How do I fire one of my clients, and why would I? I'm always trying to get new clients, not get rid of them. And is my FTP client the one that sends flowers all over the country? And if he's cute, I would especially want to keep him. It *is* nice to know that he fetches, but WS? I'm not into Water Sports of any kind! I'm just kidding with you Andy. I'm just an old fart who has no idea what you and Mark D. are talking about. I thought Linux was a Charlie Brown character :~)...........anyway, I think it's great what you're doing and welcome to the list. Jimmy, wishing Steve Polifka a happy birthday today, and a happy birthday to Bob Muller tomorrow! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:32:38 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: re. Died too young (NJC) JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > And Mama Cass Elliott, too. Don't even start with the chicken choking myth, either. That's just not true. I know. It was a ham sandwich. Just kidding. Jerry, a HUGE Mama Cass fan. n.p.: Babs - Timeless ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:34:59 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: New CD I don't know if I'm letting the cat out of the bag, but our local Fall Preview guide lists "More Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell" by a certain David Lahm as coming out soon. Any more details, Mr. Lahm? When is the release party?! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:17:23 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell MP3 FTP Site! (NJC) FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > Jimmy, wishing Steve Polifka a happy birthday today, and a happy birthday > to Bob Muller tomorrow! Two of my favorite JMDLer's! Happy birthday guys. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:39:16 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Died Too Young - SJC My short list for died too young: Wally Breese (the Joni content) Gram Parsons Leslie M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:13:53 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Died Too Young - SJC Leslie Mixon wrote: > My short list for died too young: > > Wally Breese (the Joni content) > > > Leslie M. oh Leslie...of all the names posted, this one got to me the most. Thank you so much for helping us remember Wally. Ive been on this list since April and Ive always wanted to hear shared memories about him. Yes my friends, that is an invitation. I look forward to more. love, Mags np: Morning Glory ... Simon Raymonde and Anneli Drecker from Disc one ... sing a song for you / tribute to tim buckley - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:53:11 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Diana Krall (NJC) <> This is the one I picked up on, and it's very nice...not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but very relaxing and well-executed jazz vocals. BTW, the JM Tribute show from April *IS* available on CD if anybody is interested. This is a wonderful mastered copy from Steve Polifka, I've made lots of copies of it and am always ready to make more for any interested JMDLer's. If you want more information, e-mail me privately... Bob NP: Bonnie Raitt & Sippie Wallace, "Women Be Wise" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 06:56:02 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Hello to all of you. I came out from lurking to agree with Patrick wholeheartedly about Eminem, and add something about Etheridge... Melissa Etheridge's announcement that David Crosby fathered Julie Cipher's child by artificial insemination was a hot topic on this list a few months ago. The reigning mindset in the media community seemed to be: "this is something that we should accept as a good thing -- this loving couple announced the father for their children's sake and the rest of the world has no right to be shocked." Now, we read that the couple is breaking up. This leaves two young children who now face the trauma of divorce, the confusion of non-traditional parental gender roles, the unorthodox self-image of being "manufactured," and probably a total lack of any kind of identification with 95% of the heterosexual world. Anyone with divorced parents (and there are many of us now) faces some difficulties. I can't imagine how much more difficult it's going to be for these two children. I pray that both these women take a good look at the impact their decisions are going to have and start focusing on the children. I would think that the gay community would be appalled by two high-profile lesbians who have publicized such selfish and irresponsible behavior to the rest of the world. Personally, they knocked themselves, and other lesbians who want to raise children, down a notch on my scale. And you don't want to hear what some of the more conservative people at my office are saying about them. When they announced the details of their birth, I tried hard to believe that these women were doing something good. I overlooked the fact that there are thousands of children crying out to be adopted. I suppressed my objections to the social unorthodoxy of physically transplanting selected sperms and selected egg into selected womb. I sought to believe their decision was natural and loving, though their publicizing it seemed more unnatural and political. I desperately attempted to understand why they would reveal something so personal that would be totally offensive to the religious beliefs of so many people. And, as an American, I still swore by this couple's right to choose how to raise their family. Now, they have decided that family life is not for them after all. I'm sorry, but the whole thing is disgusting to me. OK, then, girls, put your doll babies at the bottom of the toybox and go play with something else for a while. Am I too closed minded here? Are my traditional Irish family values making me miss something important? Or have I just become too old to accept this kind of change? That would be a sad thing for a person raised as a hippie who firmly believes in peace, love and acceptance. But at 45, I look around at the Etheridges and Eminems of the world, and I wonder, "My God, people, what do you have against the concept of growing up and thinking about somebody other than yourselves for a change?" Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 08:43:00 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Chicago Concert Hi Nancy and welcome to the group! I was at the Chicago concert too! Although I didn't see Amy Grant, on the way out of the Hall I did overhear a few women discussing how they had seen her. So, I guess she must have been there. Nancy wrote: > One of my life goals has been to see Joni in concert, and I was able to attend > her concert in Chicago in May (!!) > > I took my sister-in-law with me to the concert. We were sitting there before it > started, and she said, "Doesn't that woman (in our row, but in the next section > over) look like Amy Grant?" I looked over and said, "Yes, I think it is her!" > All the seats for a row or two in front and behind this woman were unoccupied, > which we thought was strange. It makes sense that she would have an interest in > seeing Joni, as she recorded "Big Yellow Taxi" on one of her albums. Does > anyone know if Amy Grant attended the Chicago concert? - -- Phyliss mailto:pward@datacourse.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:40:04 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Chicago Concert Hey Nancy! Welcome to the list! Where in Iowa are you located? NP (now playing) The Slip-Invisible Man At 12:54 AM +0100 9/22/00, Nancy wrote: >--Nancy/IA - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:41:58 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) In this country, 2 children die at the hands of the heterosexual parents each week. Many more are sexually and physically abused by their heterosexual parents. The Etheridge thing is sad for the children because their stability has been robbed from them. The fact that their parents are lesbian makes no difference. Hetero's do this all the time and no one bats an eyelid. I think one should clean one's own house before telling others how to clean theirs. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:38:30 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Louis Lynch wrote: > I pray that both these women take a good look at the impact their decisions > are going to have and start focusing on the children. What in hell makes you think they aren't focusing on the children already?! > I would think that the gay community would be appalled by two high-profile > lesbians who have publicized such selfish and irresponsible behavior to the > rest of the world. I hope you're appalled by all the straight people who get divorced, then, too. What selfish, irresponsible behavior! > When they announced the details of their birth, I tried hard to believe that > these women were doing something good. I overlooked the fact that there are > thousands of children crying out to be adopted. Why do lesbians hold some special responsibility to adopt those children? How many children have YOU adopted? > Now, they have decided that family life is not for them after all. I'm > sorry, but the whole thing is disgusting to me. Is a two-parent home with children the only "family" life? Are all the heterosexual divorced parents you know leading something other than a "family" life? > OK, then, girls, put your doll babies at the bottom of the toybox and go > play with something else for a while. This is an unfair projection based on absolutely zero knowledge of their commitment to raising children or trying to make their relationship work. It is also odiously homophobic. > Am I too closed minded here? In a word, yes. (IMO or whatever.) > That would be a sad thing for a person raised as a hippie > who firmly believes in peace, love and acceptance. Very sad indeed. > But at 45, I look around at the Etheridges and Eminems of the world, and I > wonder, "My God, people, what do you have against the concept of growing up > and thinking about somebody other than yourselves for a change?" How the HELL do you know what went into the decision-making process about their breakup? How the HELL do you know what goes into the decision-making process about any breakup outside those of your loved ones? Where the HELL do you get off making wild presumptions about people you know nothing about? You may argue that they are celebrities, that they made this a public matter, to which I will ask, when was the last time you took a divorcing heterosexual celebrity couple to task? Disgusted, Michael NP: Prince, _Lovesexy_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:44:27 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Of course, one should clean one's own house before telling others how to clean theirs. But when others throw their house's dirt in one's face, one cannot help but push it out of one's way. Colin, The fact that heterosexual couples aren't perfect either has nothing to do with my comments. And, you even agree that the children's stability was robbed from them. Yes, heterosexuals divorce and treat their children poorly. But, I don't know too many heteros who advertise the details about how their children were conceived. THE COUPLE made this a public matter. I was expressing my feelings, opinions and concerns about the kids. I thought I had the right to share an opinion, even if it's not in line with everyone else's opinion. Or, does one have to be a professed homosexual to be able to have a valid opinion? Harper Lou - -----Original Message----- From: catman [mailto:colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 1:42 PM To: Louis Lynch Cc: 'joni@smoe.org' Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) In this country, 2 children die at the hands of the heterosexual parents each week. Many more are sexually and physically abused by their heterosexual parents. The Etheridge thing is sad for the children because their stability has been robbed from them. The fact that their parents are lesbian makes no difference. Hetero's do this all the time and no one bats an eyelid. I think one should clean one's own house before telling others how to clean theirs. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:59:16 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) > > > Yes, heterosexuals divorce and treat their children poorly. But, I don't > know too many heteros who advertise the details about how their children > were conceived. I would say then that you don't read much or watch tv much either. AI and Surrogcay are constants in both. > > > THE COUPLE made this a public matter. I was expressing my feelings, > opinions and concerns about the kids. Not just that. As before, you making your feelings about their lesbianism quite plain. > I thought I had the right to share an > opinion, even if it's not in line with everyone else's opinion. Or, does > one have to be a professed homosexual to be able to have a valid opinion?# comments like this only add to the impression of homophobia that is quite strong in your posts regarding this matter. For someone who is convinced he is not homophobic you give a very good impression. Concern confined to the children would have left the other stuff about the lesbianism, the gay community etc out of it. There are none so blind as those the refuse to see. bw colin > > > Harper Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: catman [mailto:colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk] > Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 1:42 PM > To: Louis Lynch > Cc: 'joni@smoe.org' > Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) > > In this country, 2 children die at the hands of the heterosexual parents > each week. Many > more are sexually and physically abused by their heterosexual parents. > The Etheridge thing is sad for the children because their stability has been > robbed from > them. The fact that their parents are lesbian makes no difference. Hetero's > do this all > the time and no one bats an eyelid. > I think one should clean one's own house before telling others how to clean > theirs. > bw > colin - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:53:25 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: More "voices"? and Kids' Classics - SJC Lindsay here, a very infrequent poster, but faithful lurker nonetheless. Loved reading about the recent Jonifest -- one day, one day -- and also the closing of "voices." I may have missed this along the way, but are there any rumblings that the show will be exhibited anywhere else? Like L.A.? I mean they've got the Getty any everything. No problem. Also, I have two kids, 4 and 6, and am thinking about music they should be exposed to. I so often hear on this list and in general people who say they remember music from their childhoods, or their parents playing this or that (i.e., the recent thread on music we grew up with or that made an early impression on us.) Of course I've done my best with the Joni and my husband's done his best with Ozzy Osbourne. Stevie Wonder is another thought; I think any kid would love his great tunes and it's pretty easily obtainable on perhaps a Greatest Hits of. I'd love to expose them to some classical but am so ignorant of it myself I wouldn't know where to start. The CDs I find that are made for kids seem a bit repetitive with "Peter and the Wolf," and some other common things. Would any of you have any suggestions for me on where to start or what you remember listening to from your youths -- uh, not to say any of you are old or anything. I did try to play them Debussy's "Nuages" from the recent "BSN" tour. It got mixed reviews from them (while I had tears streaming down my face) but I think it stuck somewhere in their tiny little spirits. One of my favorites is Beethoven's 7th and 8th, which a friend who studied at Oberlin laughed and said, he wrote that for his father's funeral! Ha! I guess it just shows I love melancholy music (of course another reason I love Joni -- feeds right into that vein.) Thank you in advance for any direction you can lead me. I'll let you know the results. Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:53:28 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Louis asks: Yes. I should think you are. - -Julius NP: Billie Holiday "Ain't Nobody's Business" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:04:56 +0100 From: catman Subject: joni day My divorce lawyer(only deals with str8's) friend Jan came up for a visit today. She has not heard Joni since Hejira. I played TI and NRH for her and she has gone home to London with them! - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:59:03 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: RE: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Louis Lynch wrote: > THE COUPLE made this a public matter. I too have my reservations about the highly public way they addressed this question. I temper that with knowledge of the rumors swirling everywhere until they cleared the air, and the incessant questioning they must have had to endure. Sometimes putting the story out there once and for all is the only way to make it go away as a public hot-button. Other celebrities have been similarly public about the way they build their families, too (Rosie, Tom & Nicole), though, to be fair, they did not do it on a Rolling Stone cover. I still sense a double standard from you directly related to Etheridge and Cypher's lesbianism (not to suggest that Rosie *isn't* a lesbian ;-) ). But most importantly, the fact that they went so public may be questionable, but it does not reveal any lack of seriousness with regard to their children. That is the accusation you are making, and it is still unfounded and unfair. > I was expressing my feelings, > opinions and concerns about the kids. I thought I had the right to share an > opinion, even if it's not in line with everyone else's opinion. Or, does > one have to be a professed homosexual to be able to have a valid opinion? Of course you have a right to express your opinion, especially if it's not in line with anyone else's. That last line is enough to make me roll my eyes. No one said you didn't have a *valid* opinion; they (at least I) said you have a homophobic one. And I stand by that. Throw out whatever you want. Just be aware that you'll probably get a response, but no one's going to delete your posts from the archives. Don't worry, your speech rights are firmly intact. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:02:41 +0100 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Louis said: > THE COUPLE made this a public matter. I wonder why they did that? My money would be on one of two things:- - someone (i.e. the media) had already found out how the kids were conceived, and were threatening to blow the lid on the whole story. - they figured that it'd eventually become public anyway (they're stars, these things happen - frequently) In either case, they might decide that a controlled press release is better than the ugly treatment that the media would give it if left to their own devices to reveal the story. Just my $0.02 - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:30:53 -0500 From: James O Phillips Subject: Taming the Tiger: Man from Mars I was listening to Taming the Tiger earlier, and was curious as to what tuning was used for the guitar on Man from Mars, as there is a guitar listed in the instrumental credits....... I forgot how much I loved that album when I got it. It has special memories for me as I bought it the weekend I met Patrick:-) James Phillips visit my updated web page at http://homestead.juno.com/jamespatrick7556/JamesthePage.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:42:42 -0400 From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Pardon? Perhaps, but definitely in an adjoining suburb of bad taste. >>> 09/21/00 10:17PM >>> writes: Well, I did give pause before writing that one, but felt the precedents already had paved the way. I hope no one was offended by the usage in this context (and wonder about the oversensitivity of anyone who might be), but if they were, I apologize anyway. It certainly is not comparable to inviting Hitler to dinner. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:46:19 -0400 From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: MP3 FTP site? I kind of disagree with this, actually. It would be much easier for me to download these songs from an FTP site and listen to them at my desk at work vs. going through the somewhat complicated process of trading, mailing, waiting, copying, etc. Not everyone has the ability to play MP3 files, but its pretty hassle free for those that do. Reuben, on a beatiful day in Philadelphia. >>> Mark Domyancich 09/21/00 10:43PM >>> But they ARE available, that's just the thing. If you search around or ask nicely you will get the recordings either treed or elsewhere. It's much easier to get them on tape or CD. NP-the Olympics At 5:49 PM -0700 9/21/00, Andy Baio wrote: > The way I figure it, they're unavailable (i.e. live > or unreleased) songs. If you don't have a problem > trading bootleg tapes with other people, then you > shouldn't have a problem with this. - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:31:40 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Catman, EVERY SINGLE gay friend of mine is embarrassed about the Etheridge split-up - -- it really doesn't help to advance gay rights. I work in a theater, and it was the topic of conversation yesterday. Both gay and straight, people thought it gave homosexuality a bad name. Remember, when it comes to public opinion, one negative public exposure takes literally thousands of positive ones to overcome. Ask "Hanoi" Jane Fonda about that. I also received private posts from other people on the list, gay and straight, who agree that the couple shouldn't have made such a big public deal of their split -- or the fatherhood in the first place. Really, Colin, do you honestly believe that the negative publicity is good for promoting acceptance of homosexuality? In your heart, are you PROUD of the fact that a lesbian couple who publicized their family on the cover of Rolling Stone are now giving up on that family after less than a year? It's funny -- you quickly jumped to call me close minded and homophobic without really considering what I'm saying. I admit that I'm not gay, and I don't understand the politics. I admit that I have more conservative values. And I even admitted that I might be getting old and stuck in my ways. Perhaps if you'd stop racing to call me names, you could slow down and see my point. Homosexuals want to be accepted in a world where more than 90% of the population (actually, 97%) are heterosexual -- gays want "heteros" to understand their viewpoints, and to acknowledge their rights to marry publicly and raise children and have shared legal benefits. But, when it comes to making a minor attempt to understand why a "hetero" like me might have a different viewpoint, forget it. Just call me a homophobe and be done with it. And then call ME close minded. And, if you think I am homophobic, you'd better stay out of the deep South and Utah, Buddy! I keep learning more and more about different lifestyles -- and this list has been helpful. I appreciate the discourse, even some of the more peppery stuff. Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:43:00 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Louis Lynch wrote: > Yes, heterosexuals divorce and treat their children poorly. But, I don't > know too many heteros who advertise the details about how their children > were conceived. Only because they were hounded by the press daily as to the details of the conception, as is Jodie Foster. The very fact that they were lesbian made them newsworthy, it was not anything inherent on their part. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:42:38 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: More "voices"? and Kids' Classics - nJC Lindsay, I think, more importantly than WHAT to play for your kids, the overriding thing is to allow them to see your PASSION for music that YOU love...whether they like it or not is a matter of their personal taste, and at their age it's in the infancy stage anyway. Some of my parents' music I also enjoy(ed), and some I dismiss, but what I remember is their LOVE of music...my Dad showing me a Larry Hart lyric and reading it and discussing it with me, my Mom singing & dancing in the kitchen or in the living room. That's what stuck with me, and I reminded them of it whenever they hollered at me to "turn that crap down!" ;~) If you haven't read Dr. Seuss "On Beyond Zebra" to your kids, I would highly recommend it...it's a simple book whose underlying theme is that in life you have to look further than simply what you're fed, and a wonderful world awaits... Bob NP: Bonnie Raitt, "All At Once" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:56:31 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: RE: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, Louis Lynch wrote: > I also received private posts from other people on the list, gay and > straight, who agree that the couple shouldn't have made such a big public > deal of their split -- or the fatherhood in the first place. I don't know that *they* made a big public deal about the split. They made an announcement, routine for celebrity couples in such circumstances, about which the *media* made a big deal, in part due to the publicity they themselves instigated about the fatherhood, an act about which I've also expressed my reservations, but in part due to the media's simultaneous fascination with/revulsion by lesbianism. > In your heart, are you PROUD of > the fact that a lesbian couple who publicized their family on the cover of > Rolling Stone are now giving up on that family after less than a year? You keep saying less than a year. Cypher and Etheridge had been together for something going on EIGHT years, and their older child is at least three or four years old. (My exact numbers are probably off; frankly I don't CARE enough about Melissa Etheridge to follow her personal life. Nonetheless, their family has been around for more than a year.) It's less than a year since the RS cover. Unfortunate timing, I suppose, but all that suggests to me is that there were probably unreported difficulties in their relationship at the time of the story. Who are we to fault them for that? Frankly, I'm far more concerned that Cypher and Etheridge make the best decision they know how to make for themselves and their children (ostensibly your concern, too), not how their decision affects the gay rights movement (which, incidentally, is not monolithically interested in marriage rights--please stop assuming that gay people are one big uniform bloc). And yes, I'm PROUD that they seem to be weathering an extremely difficult time for themselves and their family with as much strength as they can muster. > Perhaps if you'd stop racing to call me names, you could slow down and see > my point. Homosexuals want to be accepted in a world where more than 90% of > the population (actually, 97%) are heterosexual -- gays want "heteros" to > understand their viewpoints, and to acknowledge their rights to marry > publicly and raise children and have shared legal benefits. Is that your point? Because it's not what you said it was. You said it was concern for the children. Which is it? In the event it's both, I'll just say that the gay movement will have truly accomplished something when queers are allowed to be people--fallible, challenged, vulnerable people--who despite their failings are entitled to certain basic rights straight fallible, challenged, vulnerable people enjoy as well. To that end, I think the challenges of Etheridge's and Cypher's relationship reveal the *similarities* between straight and gay relationships and families at least as much as they supposedly undermine the case for gay parenting. > But, when it comes to making a minor attempt to understand why a "hetero" > like me might have a different viewpoint, forget it. Just call me a > homophobe and be done with it. And then call ME close minded. No one besides me has yet used the homophobic word (on list at least) and I used it in reference to your opinion, not you. Specifically, I used it in reference to your characterization of Cypher and Etheridge as mere children with dolls, completely nonchalant and unconcerned about their children. If that characterization wasn't homophobic, it was at least cruel. > And, if you think I am homophobic, you'd better stay out of the deep South > and Utah, Buddy! Girl, I'm from Texas. I know Southern homophobia as well as anybody. Matters of degree don't vitiate the underlying fact: that we all, at least in the Western world, are prone to homophobic (and racist and sexist and classist...) evaluations from at least time to time. That includes queers. That includes me. Given that fact, we must a) address and b) understand those impulses at every step. We made great hay of addressing and understanding Eminem's homophobic words and actions (of far greater virulence and extremity than those expressed by you); now I am merely attempting to be consistent. > I keep learning more and more about different lifestyles -- and this list > has been helpful. I appreciate the discourse, even some of the more peppery > stuff. Ditto. Michael NP: Madonna, _Music_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:59:50 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Kids' Classics - NJC Lindsay wrote: << Also, I have two kids, 4 and 6, and am thinking about music they should be exposed to. I'd love to expose them to some classical but am so ignorant of it myself I wouldn't know where to start. >> I think most of us were exposed to classical music as kids without knowing it at the time. I don't know if they still show cartoons like "Bugs Bunny" or "Tom and Jerry" (no, not Notaro :~), but that was a great source for me while growing up. Then when my elementary school music teacher would play something like "The William Tell Overture", I was already familiar with it. I have some friends who are exposing their 5 yr. old to Bach's music by playing it in the background while he plays with his toys or coloring books. It's difficult to sit a child down to listen to music, so play it when they are doing something fun. As for Joni's music, I would force them to wear headphones while they're sleeping and put on a different JM cd every night :~) Jimmy - who knows nothing about child psychology ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:04:27 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: RE: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) On Fri, 22 Sep 2000, michael w yarbrough wrote: > No one besides me has yet used the homophobic word (on list at least) and > I used it in reference to your opinion, not you. Specifically, I used it > in reference to your characterization of Cypher and Etheridge as mere > children with dolls, completely nonchalant and unconcerned about their > children. If that characterization wasn't homophobic, it was at least > cruel. Having received more context on the passage I referred to above, I retract my characterization of it as cruel and/or homophobic. I still smell something of a double standard, and as many queer (and non-white and female) listers will probably agree, sometimes healthy, skeptical antennae for such double standards are vital survival tools. I don't apologize for using them, but regret any undeserved bolts of lightning they may send forth. - --Michael, mixer of metaphors ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:13:45 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: RE: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) Brilliantly stated, Michael. Bravo. - -Julius, another ex-Texan <> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:00:34 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) In a message dated 9/22/00 11:17:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com writes: << Now, we read that the couple is breaking up. This leaves two young children who now face the trauma of divorce, the confusion of non-traditional parental gender roles, the unorthodox self-image of being "manufactured," and probably a total lack of any kind of identification with 95% of the heterosexual world. >> Maybe we should look at the larger social problem that you have described here. Perhaps the problem has more to do with the inability of some people to accept anyone who is different from them. I, for one, don't have a problem with the fact that these children have divorced parents (I am saddened that these two women reached a point where they felt the need to dissolve their union--sad for the pain they must be going thru). As for the children being "manufactured", it makes me think that these two women (or any straight couple that goes thru the process) really wanted to have children. As for "the confusion of non-traditional parental gender roles", I hope that we have made some progress in this area, and have seen that there is more than one way to be a family, and that individuals shouldn't be locked into roles because of their sex. A child's self-image comes from how they are treated by their parents and the world, and not because of how they were conceived. <> True. But it is worse for a child to be raised in a home that is full of discord. <> Again, this points to a societal problem that must be addressed. << I pray that both these women take a good look at the impact their decisions are going to have and start focusing on the children. >> Difficult for me to respond to--I don't personally know these women, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and I'm willing to bet that they have given a great deal of thought as to the impact that this will have on their children. <> To the contrary, I am proud that these women have had the courage to end their relationship if it wasn't working. <> Again, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt--I'm certain they felt that they were doing something "good". As for the children who need adopting, understand that as a gay couple, it is next to impossible to adopt as a couple (there have been one or two cases where this has happened, but generally, one member of the couple has to adopt the child, leaving the other parent with no legal rights). With regard to your comment that they chose to do something that was so "totally offensive to the religious beliefs of so many people", I doubt that this was their intent. And while it might have offended the religious beliefs of some, I question the implied assumption that "religious beliefs" trump other "rights" of individuals. One could argue, that many prejudices are "promoted" by some religions and/or religious leaders--this offends and harms me as a gay man. <> Why do you ask this question? If you are asking it, I would question that on some level you feel you are. IMHO, yes. I will defend your right to have your opinions and to express them. I don't agree with what you are saying, but you have every right to post your opinion on this list. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:11:36 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Etheridge and Eminem (NJC) > > > It's funny -- you quickly jumped to call me close minded and homophobic > without really considering what I'm saying. I admit that I'm not gay, and I > don't understand the politics. I admit that I have more conservative > values. And I even admitted that I might be getting old and stuck in my > ways. > > Perhaps if you'd stop racing to call me names, you could slow down and see > my point. Homosexuals want to be accepted in a world where more than 90% of > the population (actually, 97%) are heterosexual -- gays want "heteros" to > understand their viewpoints, and to acknowledge their rights to marry > publicly and raise children and have shared legal benefits. Before you jump to being so patronizing, I suggest you read carefully what people write: This is what I wrote: "comments like this only add to the impression of homophobia that is quite strong in your posts regarding this matter. For someone who is convinced he is not homophobic you give a very good impression. Concern confined to the children would have left the other stuff about the lesbianism, the gay community etc out of it. There are none so blind as those the refuse to see." No where have I called you names nor accused you of having a closed mind. As I am jnot the only one who has responded to you, why am I the only one you are responding to?( at least as far as my mail box shows me) > > > But, when it comes to making a minor attempt to understand why a "hetero" > like me might have a different viewpoint, forget it. Just call me a > homophobe and be done with it. And then call ME close minded. > > And, if you think I am homophobic, you'd better stay out of the deep South > and Utah, Buddy! > > I keep learning more and more about different lifestyles -- and this list > has been helpful. I appreciate the discourse, even some of the more peppery > stuff. > > Regards, > > Harper Lou - -- bw colin colin@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:02:20 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Stevie Wonder "Albums like Talking Book, Innervisions, Songs in the Key of Life, Where I'm Coming From contain so much brilliant material." I agree, these are among my most favorite albums of all time. It was years later, when I was looking through a friend's Stevie Wonder songbook that I was suprised at how some of the songs had lyrics that, without the music, seemed so awkward. Maybe it is because the music was so extraordinary. It was something I had never noticed in the context of hearing his music & perhaps this is a testament to his incredible talent as a musician & singer that he is able to meld all of these elements into some of the most wonderful songs I have ever heard. ******************************************** Kate Bennett featured this month at Taylor Guitars www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/ www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:02:10 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: More "voices"? and Kids' Classics - SJC Hi Lindsay, Good to hear from you and know you San Diegans (Hi Criag, too are faithfully lurking ;-) > I may have missed this along the way, but are > there any rumblings that the show will be exhibited >anywhere else? Like L.A.? I mean they've got the Getty any >everything. No problem. So far the talk has been for "Voices" to maybe tour a few more Canadian venues, but it's confirmed that the paintings are on their way back to L.A. now so hopefully Joni will put them up here soon before they ship out again! I think the perfect place for an L.A. exhibition would be MOCA, which is the perfect size for it and which has revolving exhibits and...it's *right* across the street from me so we could make an easy party at my place, heehee ;-D I think Bob's and Jimmy's recommendations are great for the kids' music. Before I even finished your post I also thought of Stevie Wonder and Debussy. I would recommend Stevie's Original Musiquarium, which is a selection of some of his best from the 60s to the early 80s. My parents exposed me to a few of the classic composers when I was about 4 years old but the one that I preferred was Debussy, whose music I used to plunk out on a little keyboard with an easy music book that used "1, 2, 3's" instead of C, D, E, F, G's. The Debussy connection probably set the groundwork for my future affinity for JM. I would also highly recommend playing them some of what I consider some of the classic composers of the 20th century - such as Samuel Barber, George Gershwin and Irving Berlin. The music is so beautiful, goes straight into the heart and is, in my opinion, more accessible than some of the "older" classicists. Kakki NP: Stevie Wonder - Come Down ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:21:59 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: memories of Wally At 10:13 AM -0500 9/22/00, pat holden wrote: >Ive been on this list since April and Ive always >wanted to hear shared memories about him. Yes my >friends, that is an invitation. > >I look forward to more. Ok, a short one so I don't start crying: Wally would call me at work often and cry "Sue, why doesn't Joni call me...what more can I do!" then one day he called me and played the answering machine message he got from Joni. When he called her back they were on the phone for over an hour (with Joni doing most of the gabbing). He called me back and told me all about it in detail!! He was ecstatically happy and his dream had come true. I really felt honored that he would call me. We were good friends and never met. Can you believe it? :-( God bless wally! sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #509 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?