From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #492 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Monday, September 11 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 492 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Festing coast to coast (NJC ;-) ["Kakki" ] synchronicity and jonifest(NJC) ["Victor Johnson" ] Rose's JoniFest Pictures [Leslie Mixon ] Re: yellow ribbons? (NJC) [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: yellow ribbons? (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Freud (NJC) [SMEBD@aol.com] Re: Nieteszche..(EN-JAY-CEE) (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Freud/ Jung (NJC) [SMEBD@aol.com] Fwd: yellow ribbons? (NJC) [SMEBD@aol.com] From Brett Code [AsharaJM@aol.com] (no subject) [Gardongurl@aol.com] Re: Nieteszche........ Way, Way NJC...... Long [michael w yarbrough ] Freud, Jung, Marx (SJC) [CarltonCT@aol.com] Freud, Frederich, Jung (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Wonderful Jonifest & NEW ?? Joni Book ( no Freud Content) ["Steve" ] Re: Freud, Frederich, Jung (NJC) [SMEBD@aol.com] Nietzche and the Smith's and Mick (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: rickie lee's new one NJC [FredNow@aol.com] moon-njc [Siresorrow@aol.com] NJC - question for Jonatha Brooke fans ["Michael Bird" ] Re: NJC - question for Jonatha Brooke fans [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: rickie lee's new one NJC [Ricw1217@aol.com] Jonatha purchases.. ["Christopher J. Treacy" ] NYC consumer alert [PPeterson4@aol.com] Fotos (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Happiness (NJC) (marcel content, though and a wee bit of Carly content) [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 02:56:52 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Festing coast to coast (NJC ;-) Can't believe what an incredible week of music and partying this has been. I mostly lurk on the Lee Shore, the CSN list, (you all keep me too busy here ;-) but by virtue of my joint association with both lists, I was invited to a small Lee Shore Fest tonight in the mountains above Santa Barbara at Kate Bennett's house. Like us jimdles, the Shorites had traveled from all over the country to attend tomorrow and Tuesday night's CPR and Jackson Browne annual benefit concert for a local school in the little hamlet of Solvang. Kate opened her house to the group tonight for a house concert. I sped up the Ventura Highway in the sunshine this afternoon only to come upon a police blockade at the San Marcos Pass due to a ubiquitous California brush fire. Well, of course, I talked my way past them and they let me through with a smile. Then up a long winding mountain road to a smaller switchback path of a road through a forest of California Live Oaks to Kate's beautiful house full of light and a perfect view of Santa Barbara and the ocean down below. I felt instantly welcomed by Kate and very happy to meet yet another great SoCal listmember. I couldn't help but comment that her house was the perfect spot for a California Jonifest - maybe one day ;-) As always happens, the night just became more and more magical as other great people arrived and the music started playing. I found out to my surprise that a number of the Shore group lurk here on the Joni list, while some others kept up a regular correspondence with Wally Breese. I always feel like I'm around our internet "cousins" with this group - we are definitely "related" in many ways. I got to finally hear some notable musicians that I've read raves about for so long - Santa Barbara musicians Anastasia and John (who often open for CPR), and Doug Ingoldsby, and Carey Colvin, a singer songwriter from Wash. D.C. and of course, Kate, who played several songs off her album accompanied by her husband Jeff and some wonderful friends. It was great to hear you live, Kate! Kate played a new song that I really liked which was inspired by a trip to New Orleans with her husband and which reminded me of some of our adventures at Pazfest last Memorial Day. All the musicians were accompanied by guitar great Jeff Pevar of CPR, who frequently plays live gigs with them and also on their albums. I'm always amazed at Pevar's friendliness, warmth and sincere humility - reminds me of a bit of wisdom my old dad told me long ago - the greatest in the bunch are the most humble. This beautiful day turned into a perfectly beautiful night with full moon, and clear starry skies. I made my way down the mountain and watched silver moonlit waves roll in along the highway and smiled as I thought of just leaving the other coast a few days ago. What a beautiful conclusion to a wonderful week full of loving vibes and friends of spirit. Thank you Ashara, thank you Kate - coast to coast - what a sweet, sweet week. Kakki NP: CSN - Dark Star ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:23:29 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: synchronicity and jonifest(NJC) Yesterday I met a girl named Maggie who may be moving into the house I'm moving into at the end of the month. It turns out she was in Boston for two weeks and was there during jonifest. Friday, I had been hanging out in Harvard Square playing songs. Apparently, she was hanging out in the same spot just two hours after I left to go to the airport. Sometimes the world just doesn't seem that big. I still miss being at jonifest 2000. It's hard to put everything into words but I was simply blown away by everything. I remember sitting on Ashara's carpet singing till around 4:30 or so, drifting in and out of sleep. And Leslie, performing Judgement of the Moon and Stars with you was one of the most dynamic things I have ever experienced. Michael and Steve, it was a pleasure to be able to play with you again. And thanks to Chuck E. for getting me going with all that Neil Young not long after I had just walked in the door. I really appreciate all the feedback and support I have gotten from everybody. It really makes a difference. Ashara I can't thank you enough for hosting this event. Kakki and Julius, I'm burning to come over to California and I thank you for your camaraderie. Oh, and thanks Patrick and Jimmy for that momentary allusion to Morrissey and the Smiths. And Jody, I miss your infectious smile. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:37:00 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: yellow ribbons? (NJC) I happened to see some of the Emmy awards last night and noticed a lot of people were wearing yellow ribbons. Does anyone have any idea what these were for? (According to the folks at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, a yellow ribbon signifies a cancer survivor - altho' I know it also signifies awaiting someone's return, for example someone held captive.) Thanks! Anne NPIMH: Leslie Mixon's "Stone Soul Picnic" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 06:45:45 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Rose's JoniFest Pictures Rose, thank you for posting all those photos to Photo Island - it was great bringing back all those fine moments. One thought I had was selling the two group shots - Plum Island and inside the church, as a fundraiser. Maybe we can hire a sound person/roadie next year, so that Chuck E. and Michael don't have to work so hard... Any thoughts on this idea? By the way, I'm right there with Bob and Heather regarding a reluctance to say good-bye. The good-byes at Topsfield came much too soon after the hellos.... Leslie M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:50:39 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: yellow ribbons? (NJC) Hi, Anne: I read that these yellow ribbons were actually supposed to be gold. They were in support of the striking actors. So they were also NTOC (No Tony Orlando Content!). --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:54:35 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: yellow ribbons? (NJC) <> I read in the morning paper it had something to do with supporting the TV writer's Guild that are striking currently...strictly NCC (No Cancer Content);~) Bob NP: P.M. Dawn, "Paper Doll" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:55:42 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Freud (NJC) In a message dated 9/10/00 9:43:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stealth@voicenet.com writes: << But they can't have the knowledge to do that unless they 1st study what a tv that is not broken looks like, a car that runs properly or a body that is healthy. Freud did not do this. That was what I was trying to say. >> Of course there must be study or knowledge of what is "healthy." But let us not forget, Freud was a trained neurologist, and as a doctor, he would have studied what is considered "healthy." Freud is the father of psychoanalysis, and his study of the human psyche developed from his work as a neurologist. However, in the field of psychology, what is "normal" is open to debate. What we consider "normal" is also culturally and historically defined. And who among us is "completely mentally or physically healthy." Probably the best we can hope to be is neurotic. I use the term neurotic as defined in the profession, to mean that the "condition is not the result of organic brain disorder, that reality testing is not impaired, and that the underlying personality is not grossly abnormal--in neurosis, only part of the personality is affected." Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:07:15 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Nieteszche..(EN-JAY-CEE) (md) In a message dated 9/9/00 8:18:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: << I know a person who has spent considerable time in contemplative retreat as a Buddhist monk who still stumbles on in one of the worst passive-agressive relationships I have ever seen. I know others who haven't cracked open a book since high school and live lives of supreme love and content. >> Having hundreds of clients that you get to know personally if not intimately I can say for a fact that in my experience there are two simple commonalities that I see in the "happiest" people that I know. One is that they are realists. Unhappy people are almost always in some form of denial about themselves and the world. Some cause most if not all of their own problems with cockamamie ways of assuming the world works. From big things to little things. The unrealists genrally are utopian in nature in that they believe the world should work the way they think it should rather than the way it actually does. The second is that they dont sweat the small stuff, expect frustration in all the little things in life and are willing to change their thinking if presented better evidence than that which supports their original view. If there is a third thing it is that they never "retire" they continue to seek growth and fulfillment out of life. If there is a fourth it is that they trust in a spiritual being because they know as prehistoric man knew that something is needed to provide hope to control all those things that we are unable to control like luck and miracles. When I have had an unhappy friend or associate who is always unhappy I tell them to go to a church, any church and pray for wisdom, enlightenment, or luck. The ones that do invariably snap out of whatever they were in. The ones that dont, dont. When I was in college Neitsche was all the rage and virtually everyone who was really into him was depressed as hell., listened to Mahler, and contemplated suicide. Wow, how uplifting I said. Pass on that. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:13:57 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Freud/ Jung (NJC) In a message dated 9/10/00 10:20:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RoseMJoy writes: << I don't know a lot about Freud, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the work of C G Jung. >> << I read a paperback book many years ago from the works of Jung: "Synchronicity An Acausal Connecting Principle" translation by R.F.C. Hull. >> Hi Rose, Jung, as you probably know, was first associated with Freud. Part of the point that I have been trying to make is that Freud is sometimes too quickly dismissed. Without Freud, there probably would never have been a Jung or Carl Rogers, etc. Was Freud correct in everything that he postulated: absolutely not, and I think he would be the first to say this. He often revised his thoughts as his studies progressed. I have not read the particular book that you refer to, so I can't comment on it. However, I can say that Jung contributed greatly to the field of psychology, and that we owe much to him. He and Freud were often fueled by one another. Like a great number of therapist, I have studied a number of theorists and borrow from them all--Jung had a number of ideas, such as the collective unconscious, that are a cornerstone to many modern schools. I think that one of the greatest contributions of Jung is that he postulated that the mind is not only a result of past experiences, but that it is also a preparation for the future, with aims and goals that it tries to realize within itself. He also contributed greatly to the understanding and function of dreams and symbolism. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:16:46 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Fwd: yellow ribbons? (NJC) - --part1_9.a6ccd6b.26ee434e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_9.a6ccd6b.26ee434e_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: SMEBD@aol.com Full-name: SME BD Message-ID: <49.a7921a.26ee4335@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:16:21 EDT Subject: Re: yellow ribbons? (NJC) To: asandstrom@allaire.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 112 In a message dated 9/11/00 9:45:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, asandstrom@allaire.com writes: << happened to see some of the Emmy awards last night and noticed a lot of people were wearing yellow ribbons. Does anyone have any idea what these were for? >> The yellow/gold ribbons were worn as a sign of support for the striking commercial actors--those actors that appear in advertisements. Stephen - --part1_9.a6ccd6b.26ee434e_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:22:35 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: From Brett Code Brett asked me to forward this message on to you. Brett, I will hold you to that "hope!" :-) - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [JoniMitchellfans] The Pictures are UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 16:13:18 +0000 From: Brett Code To: JoniMitchellfans@egroups.com CC: joni@smoe.org, laborday2000@egroups.com References: <68.71d3717.26e91808@aol.com> >From Ghana, let me say, that the photos created great envy. I wish I could have been there. Having seen the pictures, I now want to hear the music that was causing the smiles, the dancing, the fun. You guys are really something! Since I am coming home soon, I hope to be at the next Jonifest. Your long lost friend, Brett Code ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:23:06 EDT From: Gardongurl@aol.com Subject: (no subject) For the third time, please remove my name from this list!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:54:22 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: Nieteszche........ Way, Way NJC...... Long I question this characterization of Nietzsche as "isolating" the intellect. One of his most important innovations, which is very much still with us today AND not unrelated to Jim's and Kakki's points about the intertwining of emotion and intellect, was that all knowledge was inextricably intertwined with the perspective of the knower. Nietzsche's thought becomes a little clearer if you counterpose him to John Stuart Mill. Both advocated vigorous intellectual discussion as a path toward knowledge, but their very different views on the nature of knowledge colored the pictures they painted of those discussions and the goal toward which they worked. Mill's conception of knowledge was firmly in the Enlightenment tradition--disembodied, universal, timeless. He advocated vigorous and open discussion because it created the conditions under which knowledge could win (i.e. be discovered and agreed upon). Over time we approach the truth in this view. Nietzsche saw things a bit differently. He talked about concepts that contained within themselves their entire knowledge history. That is, one perspective on X would accrete onto a prior perspective on X, creating a "more complete conception of the thing," but NOT necessarily a more essentially true. The different perspectives did not have any necessary logical relationship to each other. Nietzsche painted a picture of knowledge that was firmly embodied in a perspective and social in nature. I can easily see how Joni would find affinity with such views, over the rationalistic perspective of Mill, despite such facts as Nietzsche's greater misogyny, etc. Mill, for the record, was a passionate advocate of gender equality. If it wasn't for Nietzsche, Critical Theory might have taken a great deal longer to happen, which would have delayed postmodernist thought, and we would possibly be more mired in Western universalist scholarship than we are. Some important parts of Nietzsche are very much alive. (the eyes? the arms? or maybe the loins? hehe) For anyone who's *really* nerdy on the topic, I wrote a decent, short paper on Nietzsche and Mill for a class this spring which I would be happy to forward you. Not brilliant by any means, but fun. - --Michael - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's hard to be a diamond in a rhinestone world." - --Dolly Parton, "Tennessee Homesick Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:57:33 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Mini-Midwest Jonifests (njc) Hi all! Mark D.,John (not Richard)-I can hear a parody coming on-LOL, Mary, needing a pleasant diversion, Kerry, taking a break from the list; Eric the newbie; Laura the coupon queen; Jody, the hostess extaordinaire... Let's do it! A Jonifest get together, of course! Milwaukee, or Madison... Lake Mendota would be fun! Lets get on it! Steve, impatiently waiting for another fest... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:17:07 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: (no subject) It says it all right here... From: Gardongurl@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:23:06 EDT Subject: (no subject) To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Reply-To: Gardongurl@aol.com Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com - ------>>>> Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe For the third time, please remove my name from this list!! At 11:23 AM -0400 9/11/00, Gardongurl@aol.com wrote: >For the third time, please remove my name from this list!! - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:27:55 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Freud, Jung, Marx (SJC) I wasn't living in Vienna in Freud's time and never knew him personally, but I've read several biographies of him. So what I offer is only what I've read which can certainly be erroneous. Freud was always viewed by his colleagues as highly disciplined, a faultless bourgeois. He was much loved by his family and his children considered him a good father. It is largely believed he was sexually faithful to his one and only wife, though Jung (never a monogamist himself) speculated that Freud's real emotional attachment was to his sister-in-law. I have never read any accounts of Freud which describe him as having anything less than a normal, stable childhood with parents who recognized their son had great mental gifts and a belief that he would have an impact on medical history. His father was a wool merchant and a non-religious Jew. The Freud's were a modern Viennese family who were fairly assimilated into Gentile society. Some of Freud's early writings reflect some resentment on the prejudices of the society he grew up in which had an institutionalized anti-Semitism which may have been the one thing that festered inside of him, quite understandably. As a child, he identified with the Semitic Hannibal in his brave attempt to invade and squash the Roman expansionists in their own capitol. Throughout his life, Freud would witness the rise and empowerment of anti-Semitic organizations which were the precursors to the Nazis who would force him to flee his own nation near the end of his life. In the face of so much unfair prejudice, Freud distinguished himself as a neurologist and under the influence of his mentor, Josef Breuer, he developed the "talking cure" which would lead to the development of modern psychoanalysis. One of his greatest gifts to the modern world was his courageous uncovering of what hadeud's discussion of taboo matters, particularly sexual subject matter, makes him one of the great liberators of human history. He was not incorrect in his assumption that most of what was called "hysteria" at the turn of the century was the outward manifestation of repressed sexual impulses. Though Freud cannot be credited with the theory of the unconscious (often erroneously referred to as the subconscious) he elaborated and expanded upon this idea. Sigmund Freud was one of the four great geniuses of the last two centuries, the other three being Einstein, Darwin and Marx. The Sexual Revolution and the Women's Liberation movement would never have happened without Freud. He paved the way for open discussion of homosexuality which previously "did not dare to speak its name." Some of the psychoanalysts he trained were women, including his daughter and Lou Andreas-Salome. Though women were a mystery to him (as they are to most men) he had a firm belief in their intellectual equality and he also made an honest attempt to understand them. I believe it very likely that Freud was in error when he assumed that the accounts of incestuous abuse by some of his female patients were only fantasies as we know the sad truth today, but I think Freud could not personally imagine himself doing something so damaging and so he was blinded to this terrible inclination in others. Sigmund was just a human who apparently wrote under the influence of cocaine, and in the end he couldn't possibly be right about everything. I am very skeptical about the merits of formal psychotherapy and psychoanalysis in particular, but Freud was one of the great thinkers and discoverers of this or any century and we are indebted to him for bringing us out of the Victorian dark on so many, many matters. Jung's thinking used to be of greater interest to me, but it was precisely his weakness for mysticism which diminished him as a genuine scientist. At first Jung was more interested in the psychological root of occult systems like astrology, the Tarot and the I Ching, but later he was actually casting horoscopes for his patients and evolving a belief system which came to be more like a new religion. Regardless, he made a great contribution in his recognition of the universal unconscious and its archetypes. Much of his psychology concerning dream theory and personality formation still have some scientific or theoretical validity. He was all too silent about the rise of the Nazis in the Thirties and Forties and only criticized them after the War was over. We should all thank Karl Marx for his invaluable contributions to advances in human society. Tyrants like Stalin and Mao Zedong may have outwardly embraced Marxism in order to indulge their own power lusts and justify their horrendous genocides, but Marx and other critics essentially promoted the idea of common-ism which has the same ideals as those of religious elders like Jesus Christ, St. Francis or Mohammed. Without Marx, industrialists would still be exploiting child labor for 12 hours a day. Without Marx, there wouldn't have been the modern labor movement in America which essentially demanded fair pay for fair work. Don't forget that American labor unions were formed by Marxists and originally attacked for being un-American. Communism was not something which imposed an unfair, totalitarian state on Russians. Only a decade before the Communists rise to power, most of the Russian people were living as unliberated serfs. Russia was a corrupt, chaotic place before the Communists, it was corrupt and chaotic under the Communists, and it remains corrupt and chaotic after the Communists. As Orwell pointed out, the systems didn't really change in Russia or China, just the faces of those in power. At the moment, Putin is little more than an elected monarch still ruling a ridiculously vast country in an ill-adapted central government just as the Czar was doing a hundred years ago. Marx probably was a total shit to his family, but there is nothing evil in his essential call for fairness in labor practices. His recognition of the idea that all men are equal is quintessentially American. More importantly, Marx's real message is forgotten. His greater complaint about the capitalist system was the reduction of laborers into something less than human -- as mere components in the mechanism of manufacturing, people reduced from full expressions of humanity into cogs, springs, hammers. Much of what Marx had to teach us has been absorbed and that's why American laborers get to drive their own cars to work from decent housing, and get to take vacations and send their own children to college. Capitalism in the West wouldn't have been modified and humanized if an alternate system were not attempted and offered as a competing system. And as for Marcel's accusation that Clinton is a rapist, please.... This man would not be president if that were the case. Yes, he is a sexual philanderer but it apparently all happened between himself and some very consenting adults. Marcel, that's just more of your Libertarian sensationalism. Clinton is one of the greatest presidents we have ever had, a great manager who has thoughtfully presided over eight years of economic expansion, world peace, declining crime, rising test scores in school, etc. etc. He is a skillful politician who made the kinds of compromises which largely have the welfare of the majority in mind. It's always a mistake to expect perfection in the behavior of any human being - -- it's seldom a justification for discrediting their thoughts and ideas and accomplishments. Should we reject all of Joni Mitchell's music because of her chain smoking and her inability to sustain a happy, healthy long term relationship? Stirring things up, Clark NP: Beck - Odelay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:24:44 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Freud, Frederich, Jung (NJC) Stephen, thanks for thoughtfully fleshing out Freud for us. I completely admit to being knee-jerk about him and you've balanced it out very well. Perhaps my real problem is with those professionals who may have misused his theories, especially the ones that were later discounted. Maybe Freud was necessary for jump-starting modern psychology and Nietzsche was likewise necessary for jump-starting modern thought, but looking back on some of their ideas from the perspective of today, I can't help but balk a little. I also feel that some of Freud's theories about women wreaked some long-term damage, but that's another subject for another day. I only have a cursory knowledge of either of them. I had to laugh this morning at Marcel's comment about Nietzsche's effect on his college classmates, though. I saw the same phenomenon happening in college to people who got too much into him - even the light in their dorm rooms appeared darker than other people! ;-) My reaction to some of my peers sitting around in somber contemplation bordering on depression, was to pick my own alternative personal faves in those worlds. I picked Jung, because I could embrace his openness, and he was interestingly fuzzy and always human. I also rejected Neitzsche in favor of Kierkegaard, who included the divine/ God/spiritual in his existentialistic equation. Again, I felt he was more hopeful, more open-ended and human. Can't get no comfort in melancholy, I suppose ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:09:59 +0100 From: "Steve" Subject: Wonderful Jonifest & NEW ?? Joni Book ( no Freud Content) Hi Jonilovers, I am green with envy ! The photos of Ashara's Jonifest are wonderful, but the individual posts are so personal and speak of many collective memories and private moments caught, and remembered for the benefit of sharing with us all. It is amazing that almost 10% of the list members managed to attend, it speaks volumes for the important role that Joni's music has played in all our lives. On behalf af all of us out here in Joniland A BIG THANK YOU ONE AND ALL I've mentioned to a few Joniphiles offlist about a book I picked up recently ( assuming that everyone knew about it) and they have suggested I post the details as it may not be widely available or known to the Joni-community. The book is titled "Paved Paradise" by Paul Barrera It was first published Oct 1998 by Agenda Ltd, UK It is a 128page paperback which appears to be part of a series on other artists. It comprises a very short introduction( 3 pages) and then a Chapter per Album breakdown of Joni's musical releases from "Seagull" to " Taming the Tiger". Although I personally don't like the concept of reading someone elses interpretations of Joni's work. In the abscence of much else I took it at face value .................. After all I thought the dreaded Hinton book was a good read. The publishers print on the back page that the book is available for £6.99 direct from "Agenda Limited, Units 1 & 2, Ludgershall Business Park, New Drove, Ludgershall, Andover, Hampshire, UK, SP11 9RN. Payment by Cheques-Eurocheques-Bank Drafts and registered cash, only in pounds Sterling. Postage Free in the UK/EEC, for ROW add £1.50 for each copy. Cheques payable to Agenda Ltd, sorry no credit cards." If anyone outwith the UK who wants a copy has difficulty getting one, drop me a line offlist and I'm sure I'll organise something. Steve.......the Impossible Dreamer NP Hejira...August 15th 1998 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:58:21 EDT From: Jamurphymusic@aol.com Subject: Re: unsubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:03:26 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Wonderful Jonifest & NEW ?? Joni Book ( no Freud Content) <> Steve, that book was at Ashara's, and I managed to thumb through it a bit on Saturday morning. It's certainly not any kind of definitive authority, but it's always fun to read anything about trivia or interpretations of Joni's songs. I'll pick up a copy sometime... Bob NP: P.M. Dawn, "Soncheynne" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:24:44 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Freud, Jung, Marx (SJC) > I have never read any accounts of Freud > which describe him as having anything less than a normal, stable childhood > with parents I can't imagine why he would write to Fliess about his father abusing him if it wasn't true. > > > I believe it very likely that Freud was in error when he assumed that the > accounts of incestuous abuse by some of his female patients were only > fantasies as we know the sad truth today, but I think Freud could not > personally imagine himself doing something so damaging and so he was blinded > to this terrible inclination in others. Re the letter to Fliess-it makes his rejection of this more understandable. > I am very skeptical about the merits of > formal psychotherapy 5 years of psychotherapy gave me my selfhood and a life well worth living. Prior to that life was something I endured. We should all thank Karl Marx for his invaluable contributions to advances in I found the rest or your post really intersting and thanks for writing it. A couple of Americans I corrrespond with are horrified at the thought that Bush will win. My friends say this will be the death of any equal rigths for women and gays and abortion will become illegal again etc. It seems he is backed by the religious right. A nightmare just waiting to happen I guess. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:21:58 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Freud, Frederich, Jung (NJC) In a message dated 9/11/00 4:53:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << Perhaps my real problem is with those professionals who may have misused his theories, especially the ones that were later discounted. >> Kakki, I have a great deal of trouble with some of the Freudians today--many of whom, IMHO, should reread Freud, as they often act and talk in ways that contradict the teachings of Freud. I guess it sometimes happens that the disciples of a thinker, etc., get far afield from the teacher and then change the world view of the teacher. <> You may be right. I don't know. I do know that he was, in many respects, a champion of women. He took his female patients seriously at a time when women were second class citizens (not to say that we have come as far as we need to go). He trained a number of women--his daughter Anna contributed greatly to psychology (both the study of children and adults). Again, I think that the problem lies more with his disciples than with Freud. Just my opinion. (Not to say that he didn't do some harm.) Personally, I think that some of the Freudians that were (and are still) practicing may have distorted some of the things that he wrote. I have more trouble with the Freudians than with Freud--many Freudians in practice can be very rigid. Freud was not above trying new ideas and techniques and would often do things that "strict Freudians" would say are a "no-no." I can remember sitting in class and hearing instructors say things that were contrary to what Freud wrote! I must admit that I tend to have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction when therapy, etc., gets discussed. All to often, therapy gets a bad rap because someone had a bad experience in therapy. And I am the first to admit that there are bad therapist--I hear about them frequently (and I do believe what I hear). But having been on both sides of the couch, I can honestly say that I believe that "the talking cure" works. I owe much to my therapist--being in treatment with her changed my life. I also see the benefits of treatment in my own practice--I have witnessed remarkable changes in the lives of many of my patients. They work hard--and the work is very difficult and painful--but they make amazing strides. I have great respect for them and what they are willing to do in order to improve their lives. And now I get down from my soapbox. . . Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:57:27 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Nietzche and the Smith's and Mick (NJC) Kakki wrote: > I had to laugh this morning at Marcel's > comment about Nietzsche's effect on his college classmates, though. I saw > the same phenomenon happening in college to people who got too much into him > - even the light in their dorm rooms appeared darker than other people! > ;-) You don't need Nietzsche for this... if you sit around and listen to the Smith's long enough, you'll want to slash your wrists and die too! Every generation finds its own downers, if not latch on to some from the past. And as Michael pointed out it is not Nietzche per se, but what people do to his writings... if one is in a mood to be be depressed, anything can do it! And late adolesence and early 20s are a wonderful time for depressive thoughts. The Rolling Stones made a career out of that.., (the Rev) Vince NPIMH: Paint It Black, (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction, 19th Nervous Breakdown... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:55:06 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: happiness (EN-JAY-CEE) (md) Happiness invovles this combination of being ready to find happiness in what you have (instead of pining for what you don't)-- but also not resolving to complacency. So you're both finding happiness and actively looking & struggling towards it. There's a paradox in here, that makes it difficult, I suspect. Reflecting on Marcel's indicators, you see that they include both accepting your circumstance: there are ... commonalities >that I see in the "happiest" people that I know. One is that they are >realists. Unhappy people are almost always in some form of denial about >themselves and the world. Some cause most if not all of their own problems >with cockamamie ways of assuming the world works. From big things to little >things. The unrealists genrally are utopian in nature in that they believe >the world should work the way they think it should rather than the way it >actually does. And Yet also progressing foward: If there is a third thing it is that they never "retire" they >continue to seek growth and fulfillment out of life. thanks, Marcel. Bruce M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:32:31 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: rickie lee's new one NJC Ricw1217@aol.com wrote: >rickie lee jones' "its like this". >perhaps following joni's cue, (altho she would probably blacken my eye >if she heard me say that) she has released a new cd of other folks' work. Rickie Lee already did an album of covers/standards (Pop Pop), and well before Joni did hers. I heard Rickie Lee on TV the other night singing The Beatles' "For No One" with just piano accompaniment and it was heart rending and beautiful. Made me want the album. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:33:32 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: moon-njc we have a very bright white ...fractionally near full moon on the south east coast of the usa tonight. when i first saw it, it thought it was full, but it's a bit near full, but not quite yet. to top, it's high tide. a very cool evening. patrick np. j. brooke live - always a very cool song to boot. nd. one 8 year old doing something like a sachet, turn, kick, aerobat, demikick. (that's phonetic spelling) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:07:24 -0500 From: "Michael Bird" Subject: NJC - question for Jonatha Brooke fans For all of those who have lately waxed romantic over the charms and talents of Jonatha Brooke . . . I've heard astonishingly good things about her, but don't know a note of her music. Where do I start? The live album? Ten Cent Wings? [This question is not intended to reopen the discussion of "live music vs. studio recording as proper introduction to artist," for those of you who might be tempted.] I've skimmed through the web site and, uh, they're a little expensive, so I don't want to blow it . . . Nickel Chief ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:16:00 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Freud, Frederich, Jung (NJC) Stephen wrote: >I guess it sometimes happens that the disciples of a thinker, >etc., get far afield from the teacher and then change >the world view of the teacher. So very true. > You may be right. I don't know. I do know that he was, in >many respects, a champion of women. He took his female >patients seriously at a time when women were second class >citizens (not to say that we have come as far as we > need to go). He trained a number of women--his daughter >Anna contributed greatly to psychology (both the study of >children and adults). Again, I think that the problem lies >more with his disciples than with Freud. Just my opinion. >(Not to say that he didn't do some harm.) He may have been a champion of women at a time when they were regarded as second-class citizens, but that doesn't necessarily mean his theories about them were right or helpful to them. One can help a member of an "underclass" but that doesn't mean one knows or understands them or their plight or has the final, true answer for them. Freud, theorectically might have been the best thing women had at the time, but again, so many of his theories about women were ultimately wrong and did damage. I can think of personal examples growing up where a female family member and three females friends who were experiencing physical ailments. They all had the same doctor who regarded all their complaints as neurotic or hysterical or psychosomatic and they were all told to seek therapy. All four women eventually ended up in intensive care with various life-threatening conditions because this doctor had dismissed their complaints and not run them through the most basic tests that he always ordered for his male patients. O.K., so he was a really bad doctor for women, but where did such notions of his originate? And what about the psychological damage done to these women who were made to feel neurotic or whatever until they finally were properly treated? > I have more trouble with the Freudians than with Freud-->many Freudians in practice can be very rigid. I have also seen such rigidity in some trained in psychology and it is scary as hell to think about the damage they may be doing to patients. But like any other profession there are the good ones and the bad ones. > I must admit that I tend to have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction >when therapy, etc., gets discussed. All to often, therapy >gets a bad rap because someone had a bad experience in >therapy. And I am the first to admit that there are > bad therapist--I hear about them frequently (and I do believe >what I hear). Ah Stephen, no bad rap from me here! ;-) I have family members and close friends in the fields of psychotherapy, social work, and psychiatric research. Thank goodness for you all - it would be a very brutal world with you. I could never do it and have the utmost regard for those who do. > But having been on both sides of the couch, I can honestly >say that I believe that "the talking cure" works. I also believe it can help people greatly and have seen it work wonders. Freud, or maybe wrong-headed forms of Freudian psychology is what rubs me the wrong way. And I disagree with Clark that we owe so much of women's liberation and all to him. We had to wait for this one man to liberate us? Nah. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:34:31 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - question for Jonatha Brooke fans << Where do I start? The live album? Ten Cent Wings? >> We may just need to start including this one with a Jonilist FAQ! ;~) I started with "Plumb", and still think it's her best. "Ten Cent Wings" is also excellent. The live one is also great, but unnecessary if you get the first two. And...don't miss the stuff she did as The Story, the only one I have is "Angel In The House" and it is incredible, as good as "Plumb"... Bob NP: Joni, "Don't Worry 'Bout Me" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:45:23 EDT From: Ricw1217@aol.com Subject: Re: rickie lee's new one NJC In a message dated 9/11/00 7:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << Rickie Lee already did an album of covers/standards (Pop Pop), and well before Joni did hers. I heard Rickie Lee on TV the other night singing The Beatles' "For No One" with just piano accompaniment and it was heart rending and beautiful. Made me want the album. -Fred Simon >> true, true fred! the songs collected in this set are much more contemporary than the ones from pop, pop. (love junkyard! so fine!) for no one is one of the standouts on this collection. the beatles wrote so many great songs, and some of them were not really top 10 hits, into which category "for no one" would fall. inspired by rickie lee, i dug out REVOLVER and listened to the original version of this song, and it is such a gem! "the day breaks, your mind aches...you find that all her words of kindness linger on - though she no longer needs you...there will be times when all the things she said will fill your head...you won't forget her." how did that song escape my attention until 30 years post release? there was so much good stuff on revolver, i guess, this one got lost... anyway, ms. jones brings it back with a poignancy that merits a listen. and i repeat, if you wanna check it out before you spend your coin, go to www.rickieleejones.com and click your way to the audio section. is it just me, or does that pic of RLJ at the typewriter look amazingly like a younger joni? maybe i need new glasses... take care all! ric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:05:58 -0400 From: "Christopher J. Treacy" Subject: Jonatha purchases.. The Nickel Chief wrote:"For all of those who have lately waxed romantic over the charms and talents of Jonatha Brooke . . . I've heard astonishingly good things about her, but don't know a note of her music. Where do I start? The live album? Ten Cent Wings?" I would start with The Story's "The Angel in the House" or JB's "Plumb". The live album is wonderful, but I'd go studio first if I were you. Jonatha tends to improvise a bit in her live performances, and it's nice to have a base from which to jump off for that. "Ten Cent Wings" is a decent collection, but my true feeling is that the songs on the 2 options listed have both more harmony and character. Her work as/with "The Story" only produced 2 albums, which are both excellent - 'Angel' is the better of the 2. All, of course, IMHO. Cheers! -Chris. NP:"Underneath the Moon"-Maggie & Terre Roche live at McCabes 8.19.00 ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:15:46 EDT From: PPeterson4@aol.com Subject: NYC consumer alert For those of you in NYC, Tower Records is having a sale on Warner/Electra/Asylum. All Joni's mid-price back catalogue CD's are $7.99 and the full price CD's are $4 off. Also they have a stack of the "candy box" Both Sides Now collector's editions at $39.95. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:01:29 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Fotos (NJC) Rose Wow what great fotos, especially on the beach. I got chills looking at them and thinking back. Thanks for sharing this site. I may have to put some up when I get a chance (since I don't have a web site). Love Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:06:24 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Happiness (NJC) (marcel content, though and a wee bit of Carly content) In a message dated 9/11/00 7:12:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << I can say for a fact that in my experience there are two simple commonalties that I see in the "happiest" people that I know. snip...snip...snip...snyopsis: Marcel lists that the biggest things between happiest and unhappy are: 1. happier people are realists 2. happier people don't sweat the small stuff 3. happier people keep growing, never "retire" 3. happier people trust in some sort of spiritual being This post dovetails with a book that I just finished reading that has me thinking about happiness and life and choices. What Marcel's list is missing, (especially as the #1) is "love." I think that happier people not only have love, but know how to cherish it. Know how to treat the idea of "life is short, love is precious" in a daily, affirming way. Celebrate it in healthy, stable ways. I'm as bitchy as the next strung out PMS rascal, but it's as part of my daily life as eating a bowl of cottage cheese to make sure that the people I love know that I love them and get the affirmation on a regular basis. It doesn't mean slobbering all over someone with mawkish drool, but taking care to caress, affirm, rejuvenate gifts of love. To not fear intimacy and celebrate your opportunities to practice it. For your children, it can be as simple as bedtime kisses and "I love you's." For co-workers, it can be as simple as mirroring back their bad day with your own serenity. For strangers, it can be as simple as letting the person in the market cut ahead of you at the check out line with a smile. For your friends and lovers, the possibilities are boundless. I think that love, expressed and affirmed often, with appropriate boundaries, lights the path to happiness and makes Marcel's other points easy to follow. For all of my many mottos and mantras; "when it doubt, throw it out," "ai yi yi yi yi yi!," "debits must equal credits," "I'm napping, don't wake me up!," it is the simple, "life is short, love is precious" that moves me to the sweetest feelings of happiness and content. >>> When I was in college Neitsche was all the rage and virtually everyone who was really into him was depressed as hell., listened to Mahler, and contemplated suicide. Wow, how uplifting I said. Pass on that. marcel deste "It's hip to be miserable, when you're young and intellectual...." Carly Simon MG ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #492 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?