From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #453 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Wednesday, August 16 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 453 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Choosing Your Next Joni ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re:NJC, Joan Baez radio appearance [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Hinton the Lurker.....2+2=5.......who's paranoid now ? [RandyRemote <] "Down To You" (C&S) [john low ] Free Concerts - NJC ["cassy" ] Re: "Down To You" (C&S) [Don Rowe ] Re: Hinton the Lurker.....2+2=5.......who's paranoid now ? ["Jim L'Hommed] Re: "Down To You" (C&S) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: k.d.'s pants [NJC] [Richard Goldman ] Joni and Dylan was Shorter & Brecker [Slac ] Re: Choosing Your Next Joni [Slac ] Re: Shorter & Brecker [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "Down To You" (C&S) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Walecki photos (njc) ["Kakki" ] RE: Hinton the Lurker.....2+2=5.......who's paranoid now ? [john low ] Re: The Clavinet NJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: k.d.'s pants [NJC] ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Re: an introduction of sorts ["Mark or Travis" ] Coyote - why a defector? ["Mark or Travis" ] Marcel's Love For k.d.'s Pants (njc) [Evan + Vanessa Thomson ] Re: an introduction of sorts [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Choosing Your Next Joni (NJC) [Bolvangar@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:58:29 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Choosing Your Next Joni Hi Don, Wow! Your essay on saving the live albums for last purchase was neat. I never thought about it like this! Theme, variations, template. I think these are great words for making your case. I really enjoyed reading this. Jim L'Hommedieu P.S. One exception- the live versions of BSN, although technically not available :), stomp all over the studio album, imho. Sure, the sound isn't perfect on these audience recordings, but wow, the MUSIC is all there. I think that she really grew into her interpretations. Or maybe she's just a performing animal on these chestnuts. Plus, these BSN concert tapes are the only place that you'll hear Vince Mendoza's take on "Judgement of The Moon And Stars, (Ludwig's Tune)". AND "Be Cool". This new Joni is magnificent, in my humble opinion (IMHO). The $100 USD I spent on a ticket was a bargain. (Thanks to Terry! My 'broker'.) By the way (BTW), I'd recommend the Shadows and Light video but not the Painting With Words and Music video. It's for completists. IMHO. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:20:03 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re:NJC, Joan Baez radio appearance Hey Jim, glad to hear that you made it over to the definite side of the fence to be with your "tribal brother & sisters." You forgot to mention that Joan Baez will be touring the US in the fall. I may just drop by to hear the old gal. I liked her old voice. What does her new voice sound like? Have you heard "Gone From Danger"? I was thinking about buying it. My old Joan Baez tapes are worn out. I just bought her greatest hits CD. I love it when she sings DIDA with "our" Joni. I always thought there was this rivalry between the two of them back in the old days. I was sure surprised she didn't show up for the tribute. Are you sure it's not the Joan Baez fest that you're attending in Topsfield this year? (LOL) just kidding of course (private joke) Rose in NJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:33:35 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Hinton the Lurker.....2+2=5.......who's paranoid now ? Aw, don't take it so hard, Brian-er-!!I mean Steve. Actually, I liked parts of your-ACK!!Hoo!-I mean HIS book. I thought the stuff on her childhood is Canada was interesting, and certainly went into more detail than I have seen before or since. Alot of people have called him to task for sloppy research, obvious errors, etc, and have tried to offer the corrections to no avail. Like you said, it takes alot of moxy to write a book and then some more to get it into print. I thought the book bogged down when it degenerated into 3rd rate song-by-song reviews of her albums. Alot of that part was either laughable or boring, IMO. But I think the book has some redeeming value and is worth getting. RR Steve wrote: > << > or > > Hinton > that > pretty > been > > >>> > > Hi folks, Guess some people have let Brian Hinton get right under their > skin. > So it's clear he's refering to the 2nd Fret recordings because he refers to > the fact that some Joni material has recently come to > light.........GUILTY......Excuse me but am I missing something. What has > this guy done to deserve this lambasting > . > I've been into Joni's albums since day 1, (OK Album 1) > I've LIVED each of her albums in turn just like quite a few > people on this list. I've got married, had kids (sorry my wife did that > bit ),loved, lost,and all the sundry thousands of emotions that one goes > through in life. Joni's words and music have been a wonderful balm on many > occassions. > > In almost thirty years I knew nothing of Joni's background and life other > than the very rare press coverage we get in the UK. Which is usually a > review at album time. On every visit to a major record store I'd check out > the book section........nothing. > Imagine my amazement when I found the Hinton book. On reading it I was so > sure he had to be a Joni fan like me who had decided to research and write > this long overdue tome. I thought (and still do) it was a brilliant read. > > If anyone on this list thought or thinks (and some have posted to this list > just this ) that they could do a better job > themselves, and be more accurate. > > WHAT'S STOPPING YOU........WHY HAVE YOU TAKEN THIRTY YEARS TO GET TO THE > THINKING ABOUT IT STAGE. > > At least Hinton (inaccuracies and all) put something on record to capture > some of the wonderful qualities that THE FINEST SONGWRITER ON THE PLANET > has given to the world of music, even if most of it doesn't recognise her as > such. > > In the original book Hinton in the section on Bootleg LPs > says of "Posal & Mosalm........the most intriguing of her bootlegs, with > lots of unrecorded songs, and an early version of "Urge for Going". Is the > Bagel Game a mishearing of the Circle Game, or something else entirely? > I'd love to hear this record, for research purposes only" > > I just happened to have a copy of it and in the true nature of any FAN > posting a want. I sent Brian Hinton a copy of that tape. You'll notice in > the new book that his "request" > after Posal & Mosalm has been removed. Hence his comment about early > recordings having turned up.Where does the 2nd Fret theory fit in now. > > Does any body seriously think he's interseted enough to lurk on our list. In > case any of you conspiracy theorists are now reckoning that he's quoting me > as the person who posted on the net the comment that "it was better than > nothing". I've only been a Jimdle for two weeks, but that was exactly how I > felt, it was better than nothing. And a lot better than I could have done. > It's easy to be an armchair critic. > > My working life has been mostly in publishing and I know how hard it is to > get your work into print. I think he deserves credit for having the courage > to see his project through. > > And no I dont know Brian Hinton personally, or am I his secret press agent. > I just feel all this flame throwing in his direction is pretty negative > Surely as Jonilovers we can direct our ire in a more positive direction. > Like some of the Music Press Editors for lack of Joni coverage. > > END OF RANT>>>>>>>>> > Sorry about that folks had to get it off my chest. > > Let me offer to any list memeber who doesn't have it the same tape I sent > Brian Hinton, The "Posal & Mosalm" > Just email me off-list. > Happy to share the music FOR FREE. > > STEVE>>>>>>>>the impossible dreamer > > NP "Twisted- JM" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:09:38 +1000 From: john low Subject: "Down To You" (C&S) Evian wrote recommending C&S to Christen (welcome, Christen!) as a “perfect second Joni album to get” . I’m inclined to agree. I’ve been listening to C&S quite a bit lately and realizing how much I particularly like the song “Down To You”. It’s one of Joni’s most beautiful songs IMO. Listening to it last night (and in my head this morning walking to work) a couple of impressions keep surfacing – especially of it being something of a bridge (an idea evian also mentioned in relation to C&S) between two periods of her work. Musically the song has echoes of “Blue” (the album), while the lyrics possess fairly strong intimations of the “shadows and light” to come on HOSL. I’d be interested to hear what others think of this song. And, I notice in the liner notes that Joni playes a clavinet on “Down To You”. I’m not sure if she uses this instrument anywhere else. I read somewhere that it’s percussive qualities have been utilized by Chick Corea and Stevie Wonder, though I’m not all that familiar with the work of either. Just some stray thoughts! John (in Sydney) PS I think I left NJC off a post I sent last night in response to one from Kiwi Hell. I apologise sincerely to the Joni-onlies for this lapse. __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:45:10 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: Free Concerts - NJC Any Mellencamp fans out there? For the last week, John Mellencamp has been touring the east giving free park concerts in several major cities, Philadelphia, Boston, Pittsburgh and tomorrow will be playing in downtown Cleveland. These concerts are, he said, his way of giving something back to the loyal fans who have been paying to see him for years. If anyone lives in the Cleveland area, or works downtown Cleveland and is interested in this free show call 724-776-5002 sometime after 11a.m. for details on exactly where his show will be held (usually in a downtown park). The last few shows have drawn only 100 - 150 people because they're last minute and not publicized. Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:09:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: "Down To You" (C&S) Ah yes, the Clavinet ... marketed originally as 'the keyboard player's answer to the rhythm guitarist'! No kidding. You were right on the money with Stevie as one of the foremost admirers, and consumate masters of the board -- even mentions it specifically in a background vocal ("I love my cla-vi-net!"). I'm kind of at a loss to pick it out of the mix on "Down To You" ... and I've tried for years, believe me! But you know our Joni, always using the latest, coolest instrument in completely different ways! ;-D Don Rowe ===== "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:32:51 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Hinton the Lurker.....2+2=5.......who's paranoid now ? I think it's cool that you sent a tape to Brian Hinton! My dark side suspects that this is how he "does" all of his research though- it falls in his lap! Either in the form of magazine articles or acquiring tapes. Steve, I'm not saying that I could have written Brian's book. The truth is, I didn't have the chops for it and he did. I agree with you that Joni is "THE FINEST SONGWRITER ON THE PLANET". Lastly, I stick by my assertion that Mr. Hinton could, through revisions, incorporate free corrections in a style fitting his research style, (they'd fall in his lap from JMDL) that would result in a book of a quality befitting Our Lady Of Duality. Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:21:24 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "Down To You" (C&S) << I’d be interested to hear what others think of this song. >> I think it's absolutely beautiful...the "medallion" piece of C&S. I think her first symphony was "Judgement of the Moon and Stars", "Down to You" was her second symphony, and of course she climaxed the symphony mode with "Paprika Plains". John, you must have picked up on some synchronicity...I had posted on a cover of Down to You earlier, I'm guessing you hadn't seen it yet? And I had dinner with Ashara last night and she was just GUSHING about how wonderful the Aussie listers are, especially you! So your ears were burning (a Southern expression). Bob NP: Joni & The Persuasions, "The Circle Game" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:28:53 -0700 From: Richard Goldman Subject: Re: k.d.'s pants [NJC] >Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:43:21 -0500 >From: "Eric Wilcox" >Subject: RE: k d's pants njc > >I'm sure she is wonderful-- everyone keeps saying how great her shows are-- >unfortunately-- she never seems to come to Wisconsin-- which is odd since >most tours hit Milwaukee. Driving to see her in Chicago is simply not an >option (she's there this Saturday night) because I'm in the middle of >moving. > >Its so depressing to see a good show just slip through my fingers! > >Also: For those that have seen her live, does she play a mixture of songs >from all the albums? How about the country songs? I'm just curious what >her setlist is like. > >eric Eric, I saw her at the beginning of the tour, when she opened for Sting, so . . it was only a 45 minute set, not I'm sure the longer show she will do on her own tour. But here's what I remember: She did most of the new CD, not in order: the consequences of falling summerfling suddenly it's happening with you extraordinary 'sting' love's great ocean when we collide curiosity are the ones I remember from the CD and she also did: Miss Chatterlain (?sp) from her first (?) CD (don't shoot me if I'm wrong about this) and Constant Craving (which brought the whole house to its feet in awe) And that's all I can recall. Anyone else seeing her on her tour yet? Richard - N.P.-The Kennedys on the 2nd night of the Democratic Party Convention richard2sf@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:37:33 -0700 From: Slac Subject: Joni and Dylan was Shorter & Brecker Hi SueMac! Great to see you onlist! You wrote: > She also sang with Dylan in an encore of "I Shall Be Released." > > Trivia: Does anyone remember Joni's reaction to that experience? :-) No but I'm all for throwing them together again so we can observe ;~D - -- Susan L.A. I am your angel ;~) HARLEY PARKING ONLY ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:38:02 -0700 From: Slac Subject: Re: Choosing Your Next Joni The effervescently charming Don Rowe aka Larry Klein comes a' cruisin: > So ... thoughts anyone? Well Don, I'm not sure I have any of those but my next Joni is always whatever Joni is playing NOW, this very moment...sometimes I think I even get a little ahead of her ;~) Googleplexes and Bach's away, a very wise woman told me to live in the moment...So that's what I do and not many people seem to like it ;~D - -- Susan L.A. I am your angel ;~) HARLEY PARKING ONLY ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:01:47 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Shorter & Brecker << Trivia: Does anyone remember Joni's reaction to that experience? :-) >> Wasn't it that she commented on his AWFUL breath? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:44:12 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: "Down To You" (C&S) In a message dated 8/15/00 9:14:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: << Ah yes, the Clavinet ... marketed originally as 'the keyboard player's answer to the rhythm guitarist'! No kidding. You were right on the money with Stevie as one of the foremost admirers, and consumate masters of the board -- even mentions it specifically in a background vocal ("I love my cla-vi-net!"). I'm kind of at a loss to pick it out of the mix on "Down To You" ... and I've tried for years, believe me! But you know our Joni, always using the latest, coolest instrument in completely different ways! ;-D >> It's a NEW instrument? For some reason, I thought the clavinet was something akin to a harpsichord, if not in sound, at least in age or period. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:45:30 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Walecki photos (njc) Some photos from both nights of the Walecki benefit can be found at http://crosbycpr.com Kakki NP: Roger McGuinn - Back From Rio album - (I forgot how good this one is - includes Croz, Hillman, Tom Petty, Elvis Costello, Timothy B. Schmit and Michael Penn - hmmm, nice) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:04:3 +1000 From: john low Subject: RE: Hinton the Lurker.....2+2=5.......who's paranoid now ? Excellent post, Steve! During the time I've been on the list I, too, have been puzzled by the mauling Hinton occasionally seems to get. I actually enjoyed his book and found it stimulated and provoked my thinking about Joni's work. Still does! Cheers, John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:15:50 +1000 From: john low Subject: The Clavinet NJC >It's a NEW instrument? For some reason, I thought the clavinet was something >akin to a harpsichord, if not in sound, at least in age or period. > >Paul I Paul, according to the Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments it's "a five-octave electronic keyboard instrument ... manufactured by Hohner in Trossingen since around 1960." The sound is percussive and resembles the clavichord, an instrument that HAS been around since at least the 15th century. How's that for information from a non-musician! Lucky I work in a library and can race out and look it up so quickly! :-) John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:15:36 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The Clavinet NJC In a message dated 8/16/00 12:14:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, johncb@start.com.au writes: << Paul, according to the Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments it's "a five-octave electronic keyboard instrument ... manufactured by Hohner in Trossingen since around 1960." The sound is percussive and resembles the clavichord, an instrument that HAS been around since at least the 15th century. >> Thanks, John, it must have been the clavichord i was thinking of. I think Mozart played one of those. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:21:39 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: k.d.'s pants [NJC] > Miss Chatterlain (?sp) from her first (?) CD (don't shoot me if I'm > wrong about this) No one's going to shoot you but Miss Chatelaine is from Ingenue which is (if you count 'A Truly Western Experience') her 5th cd. I've only seen her live once. It was way back in about '86 and Angel With A Lariat was the only cd available in the states at that time. She and the reclines opened for Dwight Yoakum and did a set that sounded like country meets punk. High energy & she was all over the stage. I knew right then & there that she was a great singer. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:36:55 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Re: an introduction of sorts > Also, someone mentioned masterpieces, and I really can't stress > enough how I feel about Turbulent Indigo. Although I agree, knowing > the basic building blocks of her style (STAS, Blue, Hissing, Hejira) > is important, I think TI is her greatest achievement. Some may > disagree...discussion? > We Sue if it isn't it's damn close. It's certainly as fine a record as she's ever done. And the maturity she brings to TI gives it even greater depth than her earlier work. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:49:31 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Coyote - why a defector? I was listening to Hejira in my car a few days ago and something popped out at me that I had never thought about before. Why does Joni refer to herself as a '*defector* from the petty wars that shellshock love away? Although I have always heard and sung this lyric correctly, in my mind the meaning I have ascribed to this line is a *deserter* from the petty wars rather than a defector. To me the word defector implies leaving one side to join the other as in Robin Williams' character in 'Moscow on the Hudson' defecting from what was then the Soviet Union. This does tie in with some of the outdated references in 'Blue Motel Room' about American & Russia always keeping score and balancing the power and the Cold, Cold War, etc. But in the context of 'Coyote', I have to wonder why she chose that particular word. Because it sounded better? Maybe deserter sounded too cowardly and not in keeping with her theme of 'running away with honor'. But what would she be defecting to? Any thoughts out there? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:55:47 +1000 From: Evan + Vanessa Thomson Subject: Marcel's Love For k.d.'s Pants (njc) Marcel waxed lyrically... > "Crying" was in fact a song about Roy Orbison assessing K.D.s entire wardrobe > if Im not mistaken. The words are below: > > I was alright > For Awhile > I was all right For awhile > Then I saw you last night > In your orange pants too tight > they made me stop > and say ....hello > The store you bought them was clear > The sales clerk had my ear > but no one was > Buying ........ > Except for you > Buying > Except for you > Unless you have no taste > that store is just a waste > if you're not buying > buying > buying > byyyyyyyyiiiiing > No ones byyyyyyyyiiiiiiiing > buyyyyyyiiiiiing............ > > I have to stop Im getting all teary eyed. > LOL! Who knew that k.d.'s wardrobe you could inspire such poetry? Perhaps her pants (I apologise, trousers) are your muse? Vanessa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:21:22 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: hejira - why a defector? mark, i've always thought joni meant that she was defecting to the side of the non-loving people, that she was taking sides with those that were through with love -- until, of course, love claimed her back! wallyk Maybe deserter sounded too cowardly > and not in keeping with her theme of 'running away with honor'. But > what would she be defecting to? > > Any thoughts out there? > > Mark in Seattle > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:37:47 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: an introduction of sorts Cristen wrote: >>Listening to that album [Blue], I feel like she reaches something >>inside me with her music and brings out both an ache and a purity in >>me >>Since then I've not bought another of Joni's albums, but could >>definitely use advice on which one to get next. Anyone? For maximum ache and purity go directly to "For the Roses." - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:45:26 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: Choosing Your Next Joni (NJC) Don Rowe wrote: <> Surely it depends on the nature of the music and the piece itself. In any kind of music with an improvisatory element as part of its conceptual framework -- jazz, hip-hop (freestyling), many kinds of traditional music, Indian classical music (I think), some contemporary Western classical music; I think you could make the case for *any* music, period -- I don't think this "theme and variations" can be true: there is no theme; everything is a variation (as in when you compare different versions of the Child ballads); the framework may be more significant than any individual fixed version (which is not to say that the content isn't still important). And I think there are good historical and aesthetic reasons for putting Joni's music in that category. You hear it said that "rock 'n' roll" -- or any of several other types of music for that matter -- "is fundamentally a live art." <> Doesn't this mean only that an artist uses (or can perhaps most profitably use) the studio to do things that would be impractical live? Surely when an artist records a song in the studio they conceive it for the studio, and when they perform the same song live they conceive it for live performance -- that is, they're *both* variations, they're both artistic wholes? (Why would artists want to perform incomplete versions of their songs, or create art that can't be realized except in unusual, special settings?) Something may be lost in live performance, but for many people there's a uniquely special vibe about live performance that is its own "theme." And I question the idea that music exists in fixed form in the composer's head prior to its realization. (Reminds me of a Patricia Highsmith story called something like "The Man Who Wrote Novels In His Head.") There are various other things that I think undermine the artistic "purity" of studio vs. the live "variation"....the stage show and "presence" of many rock stars (Pink Floyd's The Wall, the Who's smashing guitars, Jimi Hendrix burning his guitar, Patti Smith, Elvis Presley, Mick Jagger, etc.), which is surely an integral part of their art and what we respond to in it; the conceptual tilt of an album having an influence on the sonic realization of its individual songs (certainly true in Joni's work, I think), etc. <> But wouldn't that work either way, depending on which version you hear first? (That is, hearing a live version first would deepen your appreciation of the differences in the studio version.) As others have pointed out, artists frequently perform newly-written songs in concert without waiting for the chance to record them in the studio -- and at least one of Joni's songs ("Jericho") exists this way. - --David NP: The English Beat, _Wha'ppen?_ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #453 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?