From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #429 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Wednesday, August 2 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 429 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Subject: Up pops a lawyer . . . NJC and long ["Ross, Les" ] Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC ["Helen M. Adcock"] Re: For The Roses ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC ["Jim L'Hommedieu"] Re: Napster ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Cassette tape trees and patent, copyright and trademark law, NJC ["Ji] Re: Joni painting for sale [Deb Messling ] Re: What are the professions of JM listers (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] occupation poll ["John Stilwell" ] Re: Men have no soul only egos. [AngelinoCoyote@aol.com] Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC [Catherine McKay <] Re: Men have no soul only egos? [B Merrill ] professions (NJC) [Anne Sandstrom ] Re: Men have no soul only egos? (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: For Free - Petula Clark NJC [catman ] RE: Ferron ["Peg Eves" ] NJC what are the professions of the members of the list ["James Phillips"] Re: Lola - NJC [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: The Profession poll so far....(NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] NJC ["Peg Eves" ] Re: professions (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Men with Soul?!! Hell Yea NJC ["cassy" ] Saskatoon Withdrawal ["kerry" ] FBI to spy on email?? NJC ["cassy" ] Re: Ferron njc [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Other voices / Can men sing with the soul? NJC [philipf@tinet.ie] Too small a piece of the pie - NJC ["cassy" ] Fwd: Re: Napster [Mark Domyancich ] Re: male songwriters [B Merrill ] Record companies wake up to On-Line music subscription (NJC) ["c Karma" <] Re: women in the arts & P Poland [SMEBD@aol.com] Re: The Profession poll so far....(NJC) ["Alison Einerson" ] Re: FBI to spy on email?? (Goodbye jmdl) NJC [Don Rowe ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 08:23:29 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: Subject: Up pops a lawyer . . . NJC and long Ron That was great. Very instructive. Cheers! Les (London) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 03:25:50 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Napster downloading NJC "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: >>I will respectfully disagree and venture to say that the future >>benefit of peer to peer computing outways the interest of copyright >> owners in this case. Wait a minute ... you mean to say that the rights of the artists who create these works which bring deep joy, meaning, and enrichment to the lives of those who consume them and who profess profound respect and love for the artists, are superseded by those of the consumers? >>And ultimately the viability of copyright laws as >>they now exist will have to be challenged. >>I can imagine [that several decades of intellectual property >>law could be completely overturned]. In the scheme of things copyright law is >>quite young. Yeah, and child labor laws are young, and women's suffrage ... so what? Are you saying that a more recent law has less justification than an older one, ipso facto? >>I do think that [copyright owners rights] >>will and should be changed. Brenda, you're scaring the shit out of me ... As someone whose very roof, whose very mouthful of food, comes largely from the copyrights I hold for the fruits of my own blood, sweat, and tears, you are scaring the total living shit out of me. I mean no disrespect, but you don't write/publish music, poems, books, etc., do you? - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 04:02:01 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC Paul, just because you collect it for everyone doesn't mean that you dole it out that way. All you have to do is keep track of how many Metallica downloads there are and give them their portion. Brenda proposed: <> Paul shot back: How do you do that if you are not COLLECTING them that way, but in some sort of monthly subscription or cafeteria plan? It doesn't work. All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati npimh: Dole's speech ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 04:23:47 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC "M & C Urbanski" wrote: >>I am in the mental health field. Hey ... aren't we all? - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 04:23:53 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Napster Quality, Was Re: napster cont'd, NJC Not to pick nits or anything but if you download with Napster, don't you get those sonically compromised, watery-sounding, nasty, compressed, mp3 files and not "digital copies"? Besides, once your computer dies of old age, are you gonna pay someone to save the music on the hard drive for you? Hard drives don't last a lifetime. Store bought CDs will. (What about CD-Rs? Anyone?) Besides, how do you listen to Napster files in the living room, where (I'm ASSuming) your best stereo is?? I for one do not want to listen to a whiny PC fan in my living room! I might miss Crissy Hynde breathing on the mic! I suppose that you could burn a CD but if you're too cheap to buy a CD, how are you gonna justify the expense of a burner? My point? Audiophiles won't settle for Napster-ized music for their true loves. It may extend the hobby but Napster will not replace purchases. "I will defend my right to use it to get digital copies of the 18 boxes of LP's sitting in my garage (no room in the house for more music)." Brenda All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 01:16:01 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Jonatha and the evil "N" (NJC) Phyliss and I saw Jonatha Brooke at the Largo in L.A. tonight. It was just her solo with an assistant providing a revolving array of four acoustic guitars which he kept busy retuning all night. (not one to go the easy VG-8 route, yet). Just a few minutes into the show after the first song, someone yelled out something from the audience: Someone: "PLAY (garbled)!" You could have heard a pin drop as most everyone waited for Jonatha's reaction. Jonatha, forcing a smile and doing a long double take: "Excuse me?" Someone: "PLAY BLEEKER STREET!" Jonatha, in quick comeback with voice raised loud enough for all to hear clearly: "GO TO NAPSTER!" Someone is speechless Jonatha, visibly riled, but more emboldened : "WHY DONCHA JUST GO DOWNLOAD IT?!" Audience: Nervous but understanding laughter Nonetheless, Jonatha went on to deliver a perfectly impeccable, gorgeous and original show filled with many new songs scheduled to come out on a new album next January. She continues to amaze me. I kept telling Phyliss that I just can't understand why she isn't more recognized and acclaimed. Maybe I'm biased but I'm still convinced she is one of the very rare ones that only emerge every 20-30 years or so like Joni and Laura Nyro. She is truly phenomenal. Many of her alt tunings and much of her musicality rivals Joni. I think one has to see her live to really get the full impact of her incredible talent. She did not meet with the crowd after the show but that's typical at the Largo. At one point she mentioned her mother being in the audience and joked how this made her more conscious of her "enuciation". She also made a comment that "with the way the record companies are going these days, I'm SOO glad I have my OWN record company." As always, try to catch her if she comes your way. She's playing again at the Largo tomorrow night. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:38:51 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC Marilyn wrote: >Since the question arose about no attorneys on the list, I thought it would >be interesting to see what the professions of listers are, I'd be glad to >do the tally and post the results. Damn, I knew someone was going to ask this sooner or later. OK, I'll be honest, I'm a computer geek. I work for the Auckland Regional Council - we are basically the caretakers of the Auckland environment. We carry out monitoring, issue consents for the taking/disposal of water, manage our Regional Parks, and we're also heavily involved in Transport planning. My official title is "Business Application Developer", although my business card says "Analyst/Programmer". I write Oracle-based database applications, and I'm just getting involved in web-enabling these applications for our internet site. Boring, boring, boring! Before that I was a database manager for the Department of Conservation. I've also picked corn and tomatoes, thinned grapes for Japanese export (this involved standing on a wooden box picking out grapes from bunches over your head so they are shaped nicely, and won't bruise when they get big - couldn't even eat the damn things 'cos they were still green). I've also monitoring faecal coliform (poo) levels at streams entering Northland beaches, and sewn eyes on woolly toy sheep for a souvenir store. I've worked in an Indian Speciality Food shop, and I've spent an entire summer staring down a microscope, counting pipi (NZ shellfish - a bit like a small clam) gonads. Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 04:44:10 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: For The Roses I agree with most people that Joni is not talking about horses in this song. She's drawing an analogy between a worn out horse and a one-hit wonder pop star. My favorite part of the song is when Joni sees herself doing what she hates her audience for doing: "Now I sit up here, the Critic! as they introduce some new band. But they seem (like) so much pink confetti, looking at 'em on my TV set." (from the morally bankrupt live BSN tapes- God do I love 'em!) Joni said, > That's when 'ya take a horse and 'ya know, like > he's chargin' into the finish line and they > throw a wreath of flowers around his neck > and uh... > Then one day, > they take him out and > shoot him. All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 04:45:47 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC In a message dated 8/2/00 4:06:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jlamadoo@one.net writes: << Paul, just because you collect it for everyone doesn't mean that you dole it out that way. All you have to do is keep track of how many Metallica downloads there are and give them their portion. >> Except that if someone is paying $20 a month, or whatever the subscription fee is, he will most likely be downloading everything for everyone on his block or in his dorm, because there would be no limits (other than the number of minutes in a month) on how much he or she can download. That will result in miniscule royalties for each download, at least compared with what is paid by a person who goes the traditional route and buys the CD. The portion going to the artists would probably be further diminished by "administrative" and "handling" fees tacked on by Napster and the recording companies, once again leaving the deserving artists with too small a piece of the pie. Still a ripoff for the artists, IMO. I would send Napster to the devil where they belong. They and their brothers are an insidious development in electronic media. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 04:47:05 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC I am a professional JMDL poster. Thanks, as always, to my generous sponsors who wish to remain anonymous. I wuv you guys! All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:52:02 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Napster Michael wrote: >Someone I was speakinf to here at the hospital asked me >about Napster when they found out I was in the biz and told me that they >will NEVER BUY A CD EVER AGAIN! This is dreadful news for ALL artists. >Just ask Fred Simon, Kate Bennett, Victor Johnson, or any of the other >songwriters that make their daily bread from selling music either on >recorded form or live. Believe it or not there are tons of people out >there that can justify themselves ripping off musicians, software >developers, screen artists, or whatever just to get FREE stuff. I like >free stuff as much as the next person, but I believe there has to be >limitations in this whole issue. I am sure we have not heard the end of >it either. I just imagine how I'd feel if I went to work tomorrow, and they said, "Oh, sorry Helen, you're fired. We found someone to do your job for free, so we don't need you anymore." It's not quite the same as the Napster thing, but I think I can see how Fred, Kate and Victor would feel. Like Michael, I love free stuff, but not at the expense of someone's livelihood. My joining a tape-tree to get a copy of Joni at the BBC in 1970, is not taking food out of Joni's mouth. Downloading an album's worth of her songs from Napster, instead of buying the CD, is. Then again, my making a tape of Kiwi music for my American/Canadian friends is probably wrong, but how else are they going to hear this great music (some of it is not available on CD)? Like I and others have said before, it's a black, white and grey issue, and Michael's right, we've definitely not heard the end of it. Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 05:19:55 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Cassette tape trees and patent, copyright and trademark law, NJC Thanks for your expertise, Ron. Yeah, the JMDL trading community is well aware of the fact that we can't make, and don't ever want, a profit. If we ever did, we would be "bootleggers" by definition. JMDL has supported several free (cassette) tape trees in the past. On the other hand, CD trading, if it exists, must be largely an off-List activity. My 2 cents. Lamadoo - ------------------------------------------------------- Ron St. Marie patent, copyright and trademark law Los Angeles, California said: 7. My reading is that the tape trees sound like copyright infringement to me. My guess is that the second someone starts to make money on these CD's, the record company will come down hard, perhaps even cutting off the List by writing a nasty letter to the website. All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 06:36:34 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Joni painting for sale You know you're really a Joni addict when $30K doesn't sound so bad! I'd rather buy a Joni painting than some dumb car or something. At 09:29 PM 8/1/00 -0400, you wrote: ><< Was $40K, now reduced to $29K.... > > Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat. / Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:38:51 +1000 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: What are the professions of JM listers (NJC) I'm a B-grade loony :-) And if you wondering why I'm only classifying myself as a B-grade loony, it's because I'm truly humbled by the number of A-grade loonies on this list ;-) Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 07:50:46 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC In a message dated 8/2/00 4:42:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << I've worked in an Indian Speciality Food shop, and I've spent an entire summer staring down a microscope, counting pipi (NZ shellfish - a bit like a small clam) gonads. >> Hell, I want to know if you sold the clam gonads in the Indian Specialty Food Shop. :~) ......and Marilyn, good luck categorizing the monitoring of fecal coliform and counting pipi for your JMDL poll :~) Jimmy, who only eats female clams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 08:16:31 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: For Free - Petula Clark NJC Catherine asked about Petula Clark's cover of "For Free": Catherine, I didn't know at the time but after some research it appears that she recorded this on her 1971 release called "Warm and Tender". I noticed she also does "Time & Love" by Laura Nyro on the same record. I for one always loved Petula...when she was hot, it seemed like there was always a new hit of hers on the radio, and I never got tired of hearing them. "Downtown" was her biggest hit (I'm guessing), but my favorite was always "There Is A Place Where We Can Go" (guessing again on the title). She was a fine pop singer, so I'm very anxious to hear her take on "For Free", and also anxious to be able to share it with my fellow covers junkies! ;~) Bob NP: Shout To The Lord, "Love You So Much" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 08:18:03 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: The Profession poll so far....(NJC) In a message dated 8/1/00 7:40:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: << Send more! >> Put me down on the list as an accountant. It used to support my life's work as daily jmdl poster, but now it just supports. Back to lurking, MG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 07:35:15 -0500 From: "Van Metre, Gordon" Subject: Profession I'm a Customer Service Rep at a manufacturing company. I speak French so I handle the Canadian accounts. Last place I did the same thing, 'cept I dealt with France, Belgium, Italy, and Canada. I've done this sort of work for about 6 years. Before that I taught French as a part-timer at Kent State University, and since the money sucked so bad, I also scrambled around doing lots of stuff on the side, such as translating and interpreting, tutoring (as enjoyable as gum surgery!), editing, proofreading, teaching computer applications, temping as a word-processor, and running a translation/interpreting service at the International Institute of Akron, a small social service agency serving the foreign-born. That last one was my ALL TIME FAVORITE job, except the money was even worse than the university and the Director of the agency was embarrassingly stupid. Went to the private sector in search of health insurance benefits. I must agree with Susan L.A., this system is nothing short of cruel. If I had my druthers, I'd continue in the same vein of work, except I'd actually get to travel a few times a year (preferably to Europe). Geez! It sounds like I'm applying for a job! ... of course, if anyone has one to offer... Gordon in Kent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 12:59:24 GMT From: "John Stilwell" Subject: occupation poll two jobs: Office Manager/Controller Part Time Software Developer No time to write anything else, gotta go to work! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:01:58 EDT From: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com Subject: Re: Men have no soul only egos. In a message dated 8/1/00 9:12:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << Or how about David Wilcox, Michael Johnson, Chris Isaac, Van Morrison, Loudon Wainwright III, and David Lee Roth? (Just kidding on the last one there folks...) >> Can I toss Daryl Hall in that mix? Not kidding! No regrets, Coyote (Rick) Casa Alegre Hollywood, California I'll be dancin' on a pony keg. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:03:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC - --- FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > > Contrary to beliefs that I'm a figure skater, I own > an insurance agency. > But you do figure-skate on the side, n'est-ce pas? ;) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 09:01:55 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: Men have no soul only egos? Hi Marcel and All, As the original begetter of this wandering thread, let me say for the nth time!, that I am NOT holding that men cannot sing expressively or sincerely. I was suggesting that they are less likely to combine their ambition as songwriters & musicians with expressivity and sincerity. So, this point is not refuted by noting that Little Richard & Big Luciano sing with soul. Rather, it is to be refuted (or not!) by citing albums & songs which combine the ambition, extraordinary intelligence and sophistication that "our Joni" displays in HOSL (and ditto for Kate B in "the Dreaming") with the sincerity and expressivity that these excellent women also display-- in intimate combination with their great ambition. Got it? So, can you come up with such an excellent man, a singer-songwriter who COMBINES high ambition and intense sincerity to a degree which approaches amazing Joni & Kate? If you can, I'd love to hear about it. And thank you Erin!, who advanced Paul Simon's Graceland as an instance of what I was looking for. And someone else mentioned Van Morrison, which brought to mind his ambitious AND expressive "Astral Weeks," which COMBINES these two, n'est-ce pas? And, to repeat, my own instance: Andy Pratt circa 1973, who sang intensely, from the heart, and was also committed to original, impressive songs. By contrast, the antithesis of what I'm looking for is so-called "progessive" rock (a male bastion?) which is deliberately complicated and original, but is also (to me) often empty, since it does not connect with sincere expression. And the ne plus ultra of what I'm celebrating, a song which is complicated and original, but ALSO passionately sincere and expressive is Kate's "Get out of My House," a jaw-dropping masterpiece. Bruce PS Or maybe Mr Penniman's "Bama-Lama-Bama-Loo" offers all the ambition of Kate's "Pull out the Pin"? Or Mr. Pavrotte has composed a brilliant "total work" concept album, ("the Glissando in a Tuscan Sunset?"), that I don't know about? I'm looking forward to learning as much. ><< A corollary might well be that mostly women sing from the soul and men >from the ego. >> > >I have watched and read this thread and it has been stunning in its >seriousness.This is a joke. Are y'all kidding or what. Who on earth can make >a judgement like this. Lucianno Pavrotti, Nat King Cole, Little Richard, >Elvis, Steve Winwood, all had no soul ? They all sang for ego ? Is this what >is being suggested? This thread would be called sexist if the subject was >reversed. I cant stop laughing. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:18:03 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: professions (NJC) Well, as far as professions go, I'm a technical writer. In a funny coincidence, I write the instruction manuals for the product that Les uses to create the JMDL site. I used to be a teacher. I loved it. I suspect that being a cancer survivor will change my life completely. What do I really want to do? Heal people. And/or teach them. I think the two are related. (god, I sound like I'm in a beauty contest...) lots of love Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:29:11 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Men have no soul only egos? (md) In a message dated 8/2/00 6:04:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, merrillb@crisny.org writes: << Rather, it is to be refuted (or not!) by citing albums & songs. which combine the ambition, extraordinary intelligence and sophistication that "our Joni" displays in HOSL (and ditto for Kate B in "the Dreaming") with the sincerity and expressivity that these excellent women also display-- in intimate combination with their great mbition. Got it? >> To begin, the words "expressivity and sincerity" are about as subjective as you can get. Like the word "feeling". Did he sing with feeling just because his voice was fantastic? That is totally subjective and one could dismiss anything with those words as the judgemental catalyst. Also you are adding other factors now perhaps to obfuscate the sexist overtones of the original statements and qualifications. Frankly Bookends was every bit as intelligent and sensetive to me as anything Joni has done although again subjectivity allows for realative views. The question I addresss was whether Pavrotti sings with soul. Is someone going to say he doesnt. They could, millions would disagree, but according to your parameters they could and rhetorically succeed. Although I could if given enough time come up with many more I would submit that the following albums qualify as equals easily to anything nearly any other artist has ever done in this category. Intelligence. Sensetivity. Expressivity. The three great stimulants of the Joniphiles. Tommy...Peter Townshend Quadrophoeneia...Peter Townshend Goodbye Yellow Brick Road...Elton John Abbey Road...The Beatles Avalon...Roxy Music Bookends.....Simon & Garfinkle I need to go home and go through my collection. marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 14:42:49 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: For Free - Petula Clark NJC > > > She was a fine pop singer, she still is ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:18:03 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Ferron Whoa. What? I've been loving your posts and feeling exactly THAT! That we were pulling together. I'm certainly sorry if I offended you. How'd I do that? In earnest, Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: Slac [mailto:ondulees@telus.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 6:54 PM > To: peves@marlboro.edu > Subject: Ferron > > > Hi Peg, > > I am not the enemy...I would like to know why you are ignoring and > excluding me from this conversation when we are basically voicing the > same views? Wouldn't it be better if we pulled for Ferron together? What > exactly is it that you object to? Humour? > > Thankyou for your consideration, > > Susan L.A. > I am your angel ;~) > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:48:38 GMT From: "James Phillips" Subject: NJC what are the professions of the members of the list Lest anyone think I dropped off the face of the earth, I have been busy with a list I started at egroups, called sweetsoulmusic, which is devoted to r&B, soul and disco music. Anyone from this list that is into that type of music is free to join. What do I do for a living? Nothing at all. I have not worked since the end of March of 1999, when I moved back down here to Champaign. I have been seeking employment and find out next week if I get a job as a clerical assistant where Patrick and I go to church at. Something I may do when I get more perfomances of my own material I have written under my belt is to think about making a 4 song demo to send to some indie labels. I've been thinking about such labels as Kill Rock Stars, Rykodisc Records, 4ad Records, Rounder Records, Lookout! Records and maybe A&M. I just don't want to compromise my music and the direction I take it in, and I think with an indie label, I would have some lee-way in that respect. It may be a year or so before I do anything yet, but I've been thinking about it. Later, James Phillips now playing: The Trinity Session by Cowboy Junkies ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:49:46 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Lola - NJC this thread ran long ago, but i've been meaning to put up some words to a richard thompson song that any lola fan would appreciate. the song is done on an acoustic guitar and has a country blue grass twist to the sound and is definately done with a smile. patrick :) Was She A Woman Or A Man i stepped on the dance floor feelin very cool i thought i saw an angel sittin on the stool i just couldn't tell, you'll think i'm a fool if she was a woman or a man she was the kind of woman that a man could crave from her high heeled shoes to her permanent wave except that maybe she was needing a shave was she a woman or a man oh i asked her to dance and i took her by the hand she held me so tight it was hard for me to stand built like a lumberjack i couldn't understand was she a woman or a man well i walked her home it was a quarter past four my heart was a thumpin as we ducked in the door then when she kissed me i thought i was sure if she was a woman or a man well she stole my wallet and knocked me off my feet she tied on her roller skates and made her retreat all i found was a blonde wig lyin' in the street was she a woman or a man well i don't care if she seemed unkind she stole my heart and she robbed me blind i loved her so much that i still wouldn't mind if she was a woman or a man ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 07:18:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: The Profession poll so far....(NJC) > BUSINESS: > 1-investment advisor > 1-corporate account specialist > 1-office mgmt/administrative asst. * * That would be me. Mags, can you add a NON-PROFIT category, and move my answer there? BUSINESS usually implies "for profit," and the organizations I work for are definitely non-profit. Thanks! Lori, ever anal in DC __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:05:08 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: NJC All, I think I forget the NJC sometimes. I hate it when I do that. I apologize. Peg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:33:28 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: professions (NJC) University Librarian. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:41:43 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: Men with Soul?!! Hell Yea NJC Blair said: >Hey, i think you are all forgetting one great male Songwriters... >Frank Zappa!! UH HA!! I knew you would agree. I love Frank Zappa :0) Even after the following incident: I went in the early 70's to a Zappa concert in Detroit. During Frank's prior concert in Detroit the crowd was pretty rowdy, tossing garbage at him and cat-calling, it really ticked him off and he left the stage prematurely. This time we waited an inordinate amount of time for him to begin his show then... finally a tiny spotlight on center stage with a pair of pink feet in it. The spotlight expanded gradually to illuminate Frank, standing there in all his glory dressed as a big penis... a microphone standing in front of him he leaned into it and said "Detroit... you've just been fucked," and he left the stage! That was his entire show! Many people got refunds for the concert, while I was disappointed at not having seen him perform his music I did appreciated the fact that, in a sense, this was a rare piece of performance art and have come to appreciate it over the years. I have seen Frank many times live and love his work. The man was a genius musically and gave Jean-Luc Ponty his start in the industry. Cassy NP Elmore James "King of the Slide Guitar" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:55:45 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: Saskatoon Withdrawal Hey, Saskatoon Travelers! I'm having withdrawal from not hearing from you, lately! Let me know how your summer is going! Kerry, missing the land of toonies and loonies... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:56:33 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: FBI to spy on email?? NJC An interesting article I thought I'd pass along. Cassy WSWS : News & Analysis : The Internet & Computerization Clinton administration plan for FBI spying on email By Patrick Martin 2 August 2000 Use this version to print The Clinton administration announced July 17 that it would seek broad powers to compel Internet Service Providers to allow FBI monitoring of email messages, using a powerful software package devised by the police agency and given the ominous title of "Carnivore." In its familiar style, the White House is packaging this reactionary plan as a "reform," presenting an expansion of wiretapping as an effort to set limits on the FBI and insure civil liberties. Chief of Staff John D. Podesta, in a speech to the National Press Club, declared, "It's time to update and harmonize our existing laws to give all forms of technology the same legislative protections as our telephone conversations." Conflicting laws currently regulate police surveillance and interception of various modes of private communication in the United States. For example, telephone calls may only be wiretapped by the police with a court order, while there is no legal restriction on the interception of ordinary email. Communications routed over cable modems are effectively immune from interception, since police are required to obtain a court order after a judicial process in which the target of the surveillance has the right to challenge it. These contradictions are a byproduct of the rapid development of communications technology. Email messages have little legal protection because until recently it was technologically impractical for the FBI to monitor them systematically. Carnivore was only developed in the last 18 months, as a modification of a software program typically used by Internet Service Providers (ISPs) known as a "packet sniffer." It sorts through the stream of data entering an ISP to find the senders and recipients of email to and from the target of surveillance. Because Carnivore examines every email message handled through a given ISP, it closely resembles a form of telephone surveillance called a "trunk side" wiretap, in which the tap is placed, not on a particular phone, but in a telephone company switching center. Such wiretaps have been illegal in the United States for more than 30 years, since they give police access to all phone calls rather than those of a specific target. Under the Clinton administration plan, the email equivalent of such illegal wiretaps would now be permissible. Opponents of the legislation have pointed out that there is no way to insure, once Carnivore is installed on an ISP, that the FBI would limit itself to monitoring the email of one targeted individual. The agency would be accountable only to itself. It has refused to release the source code for Carnivore, citing the proprietary interest of the companies which helped develop it, but also because, as one official said, "people might go to work on how to beat the system. We're not interested in getting into that race." Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil Liberties Union, criticized the plan to install Carnivore, saying it "represents a grave threat to the privacy of all Americans by giving law enforcement agencies unsupervised access to a nearly unlimited amount of communications traffic." The Clinton administration's posture is that messages sent over the Internet should be treated in the same way as telephone calls. That is, monitoring ordinary email should require a court order (a restriction of police power), while monitoring email over cable lines should be made easier. But in practice, given the different character of email and telephone communication, the proposed measure amounts to a sweeping expansion of police powers. For instance, current law gives police virtually unlimited right to "transaction" surveillance of telephone calls. Telephone companies routinely hand over to the police, on request, logs of all calls made from a particular telephone and to whom. This power would now be extended by requiring ISPs to provide police the logs of email messages, when they were sent and to whom, as well as the record of web sites visited. This power is a much more serious threat to political freedom than telephone logs, which reveal far less about the content of the communication being monitored. A list of web sites visited can tell a great deal about the political beliefs of someone targeted for police surveillance. Moreover, police cannot seek access to the content of phone calls when they learn of them after the fact from a log. Email messages, however, are recorded automatically by the Internet Service Provider. Accordingly, there will be intense pressure to divulge the content of messages once the police learn of their existence. The email monitoring program would have worldwide implications, since it would apply to all communications that either begin or end in the United States. It would not apply to email messages transmitted entirely outside the country, but these could be monitored if they pass through an ISP based in the US-as do many email messages between European countries, for instance. The FBI recently objected to the takeover of a US-based Internet provider by the Nippon Telegraph & Telephone, citing "national security" considerations. According to one report, "the focus of the FBI's complaint is about preserving wiretap capabilities when an Internet service provider (ISP) is foreign-owned." The FBI is also pressuring makers of Internet equipment and software to insure that the next generation of Internet technologies have "wiretap-friendly" features. This amounts to an effort by the agency to assume powers that were specifically barred to it in the Communications Assistance to Law Enforcement Act of 1994, which excluded the Internet from federal police spying. Congressional reaction to the White House plan was mixed, with most Democrats supporting it. Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont cited the refusal of some ISPs to execute court orders for wiretapping, declaring, "If an ISP says it will not or cannot execute the order, what is the FBI supposed to do?" There was more opposition among congressional Republicans, citing either privacy considerations or concern that federal monitoring could be a prelude to other forms of regulation of the Internet, or taxation. Neither party voiced any opposition to the widespread phenomenon of corporate spying on the email and Internet use of workers. An American Management Association survey released last month found that nearly three quarters of all companies conduct such monitoring actively, while one quarter have fired workers as a result. See Also: British parliament set to adopt law enforcing police access to encrypted email [19 July 2000] The Internet & Computerization [WSWS Full Coverage] Readers: The WSWS invites your comments. Please send e-mail. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:07:01 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Ferron njc I love that song Breakpoint from Ferron's record. It's got a real moody feel to it. The nice lady who runs Earthbeat gave me the record but I never knew anything about Ferron untill now Philip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:07:40 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Other voices / Can men sing with the soul? NJC Van Metre, Gordon submitted : >I love Iris Dement, and that song ('Our Town' ) is one that can >bring the tears to my eyes. Kate Rusby from England has a great version of Our Town which has been raved about by a few people here including myself. I'm going to see her in Kilkenny in a week or two, lucky me. By the way Iris DeMent is featured heavily on one of my favourite records at the moment. It's an old timey album of country duets with John Prine called In Spite Of Ourselves on the aptly named Oh Boy records. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:10:09 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: Too small a piece of the pie - NJC Paul noted that: >The portion going to the artists would probably be further >diminished by administrative" and "handling" fees tacked >on by Napster and the recording companies, once again >leaving the deserving artists with too small a piece of the pie. I think that considering the cost of CDs today, the artists already get too small a piece of the pie! Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 10:15:27 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Fwd: Re: Napster I guess I didn't take this into consideration. I knew Michael was in the music business but I didn't know one of the aspects of his job is to promote music via prerelease material. I didn't mean to call Michael a Judas but I didn't see a difference between someone uploading a full prerelease album and giving away copies of it. I'm very sure when people download full albums off of Napster of prerelease material they are the same ones in line buying it next Tuesday. Sorry if I offended you, Michael. I didn't mean it the way it sounded. NP-Poor Devils, 7/8/91 >Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 11:06:17 +0000 >From: Michael Paz >Reply-To: michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net >Organization: The Paz Group >To: Mark Domyancich >Subject: Re: Napster > >Actually, I didn't even make a copy for anyone at all. I don't think I >even had a burner at that time (not that I would have made a copy for >anyone of an actual release) I did get three total promo copies though. >They were released to the record stores as promo copies which is >something I excel at (promotion of music that is). I gave those copies >to certain friends who I am SURE bought actual releases as well. After >the release I bought 10 or so copies to give as presents and gifts to >friends. Joni herself distributed copies to her friends and inner circle >and I am sure they shared. The differnece with me is, I HAVE to have >promo copies, and real store bought copies. I can't help it, it's the >slut in me. > >Later > >Michael - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:18:09 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: male songwriters Erin Stoy wrote: >Yeah, actually in my undergrad days I wrote a paper >for a class called Traditional and Popular African >Musics about the controversy over the Graceland album. > It was amazing the things people said about Paul... Yes, in one clip a group of Africans musicians were grumbling about Paul borrowing from their culture-- w/o thinking twice about what they had already borrowed from European culture. Starting with: their instruments. Tho I did come upon an interview with Los Lobos where they were complaining about how PS ripped off their rhythm track w/o credit. And I believe them. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:24:44 GMT From: "c Karma" Subject: Record companies wake up to On-Line music subscription (NJC) Today's newspapers are covering EMI's announcement that they plan to offer on-line transfers starting in September, with Sony and Universal Music Group following later in the year. The bad news is that EMI plans to sell the music at full retail list price, $3.99 for a single, $16.98 or $17.98 for an album: this despite the loss of physical artwork and packaging, transportation and retailer overhead. EMI claims that their costs for digital distribution are actually higher than for traditional methods. My initial, possibly uninformed reaction to this is very simple: In a pig's ass. What I see is EMI addressing a real responsibility to their retailers. But then why should consumers now bear continued price gouging through yet another medium? Convenience to on-line purchasers? Only the marketplace will decide. But IMHO, this is yet another reason why EMI is known in the industry as "Evil Music Incorporated." CC "Breathtaking ignorance!" -- JM ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:38:28 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: women in the arts & P Poland In a message dated 8/1/00 10:25:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kate@katebennett.com writes: << Bob, To answer your question, I agree with you about this, it bugs me too. You wrote "but it always strikes me as sexist when gender is used to define women in the arts. It just seems like the media's way of subtly creating a subclass (female) of people within a category. I wonder if it bugs Joni and other women in the arts as much as it bugs me. >> I have read and heard Joni, on more than one occasion, go off about being put into a category of "female" singer/songwrioters. She has stated that she has more in common with many of the males than she does the females she is being compared to. My take on her comments about this is that she is very bothered by this and feels that it is a way of "reducing" female artist's accomplishments (rarely does one read an article about "male singer/sonwriters, etc."). Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 09:54:16 -0600 From: "Alison Einerson" Subject: Re: The Profession poll so far....(NJC) i am the promotions director/marketing & pr coordinator for an outdoor retail specialty store and manufacturing company. alison e. in slc. - ---------- >From: "M & C Urbanski" >To: >Send more! >Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 08:50:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Stoy Subject: Re: male songwriters Yes, Los Lobos did seem to get a raw deal from the whole affair. Strange how Paul Simon was so careful and generous (monetarily and in terms of giving credit) with the S. African musicians, yet seemingly insensitive towards the Mexican-American ones. - --- B Merrill wrote: > Yes, in one clip a group of Africans musicians were > grumbling about Paul > borrowing from their culture-- w/o thinking twice > about what they had > already borrowed from European culture. Starting > with: their instruments. > > Tho I did come upon an interview with Los Lobos > where they were complaining > about how PS ripped off their rhythm track w/o > credit. And I believe them. > > Bruce > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 08:57:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: FBI to spy on email?? (Goodbye jmdl) NJC Well, it seems I'm Carnivore's first "collar." The G-men are on their way to my workplace, warrants in hand, for my immediate arrest. Apparently the software alerted them to the following criminal violations in my e-mails: Impersonating a Bass Player/Producer -- a Class D felony. Copyright infringement (hot topic), using Garth Brooks marketing character's likeness without a license. Sexual discrimination -- remember the Farah Fawcett thread? That apparently, violated several sections of EEOC ... I guess when I get out of the pokey I'll have to pay some fines. Wearing a disguise in a public place. The tap also found this violation of an archaic Massachusetts public ordinance from the 1700s. But since it's still on the book -- they're throwing it at me. Well, it's been fun. I shall think of you fondly as I rot away in Club Fed. But who knows, I might jump the hedge one night, sneak out to some cyber cafe and touch base once in a while. Don Rowe ===== "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:37:04 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE:Zappa/ NJC Yes to Frank Zappa music. Despite(is that a word?) pressure from the males in my peer group in the late 60's who adored Frank's pranks & parodies, etc - I was never amused or moved by his early work and he certainly didn't need me. BUT his instrumental stuff, the clavinet compositions,Jazz From Hell, Dog Breath Variations, the double "Guitar" release. Stupendous. It's in my collection. An island unto himself (not just in his personage) in that sense he is comparable to Joni, yes? And in his musical originaltiy & genius; His persistance in retreating from "structure"; His ability to and committment to play from , instinct - shall we say. Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of cassy > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 10:42 AM > To: Blair Fraipont; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Men with Soul?!! Hell Yea NJC > > > Blair said: > > > >Hey, i think you are all forgetting one great male Songwriters... > >Frank Zappa!! UH HA!! I knew you would agree. > > I love Frank Zappa :0) Even after the following incident: > > I went in the early 70's to a Zappa concert in Detroit. During Frank's > prior concert in Detroit the crowd was pretty rowdy, tossing > garbage at him > and cat-calling, it really ticked him off and he left the stage > prematurely. > This time we waited an inordinate amount of time for him to begin his show > then... finally a tiny spotlight on center stage with a pair of > pink feet in > it. The spotlight expanded gradually to illuminate Frank, > standing there in > all his glory dressed as a big penis... a microphone standing in front of > him he leaned into it and said "Detroit... you've just been > fucked," and he > left the stage! That was his entire show! > > Many people got refunds for the concert, while I was disappointed at not > having seen him perform his music I did appreciated the fact that, in a > sense, this was a rare piece of performance art and have come to > appreciate > it over the years. > > I have seen Frank many times live and love his work. The man was a genius > musically and gave Jean-Luc Ponty his start in the industry. > > Cassy > > NP Elmore James "King of the Slide Guitar" > > > > > ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #429 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?