From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #428 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Wednesday, August 2 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 428 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: male songwriters [Erin Stoy ] Re: response to Nickel Chief, re: Subway graffiti [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: napster cont'd [Erin Stoy ] Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC [Dave Gertler ] Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC [RandyRemote ] Re: For The Roses [Howard ] Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: twilight zone NJC [catman ] Joni painting for sale [Scott Price ] njc don't forget the njc [Slac ] Re: k.d. lang [NJC] [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC [Slac ] Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Up pops a lawyer . . . NJC and long [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] professions of JMDL NJC [zaide912@webtv.net] male songwriters NJC [zaide912@webtv.net] Napster [Michael Paz ] From the Mayo (NJC) [Michael Paz ] RE: k.d. lang [NJC] ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC ["Brenda J. Walker" ] Re: Joni painting for sale NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] women in the arts & P Poland ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.co] The Profession poll so far....(NJC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Napster [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC ["Nikki Johnson" <] Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Men with Soul?!! Hell Yea ["Blair Fraipont" ] Re: Mendel exhibit book NJC [Gellerray@aol.com] Re: twilight zone NJC [pat holden ] Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC [pat holden ] Re: Napster [Michael Paz ] what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC [evian ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 14:07:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Stoy Subject: Re: male songwriters Yeah, actually in my undergrad days I wrote a paper for a class called Traditional and Popular African Musics about the controversy over the Graceland album. It was amazing the things people said about Paul... > Now I'm confused ... I thought 'Graceland' was > morally > bankrupt, bourgeois musical imperialism. ;-D > > Don Rowe > > (Who knows damned well Mr. Simon is neither morally > bankrupt, bourgeois nor an imperialist.) > > ===== > "Closer Now" is now available at > http://www.mp3.com/donrowe > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. > http://invites.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:08:54 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: response to Nickel Chief, re: Subway graffiti In a message dated 8/1/00 12:49:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ckarma@hotmail.com writes: << Jogging other memories of the time, does anyone remember the hair picks that had the integral folding handle in fashionable black power colors? They fit in the back pocket of Levis perfectly! Or, huk-a-poo shirts worn with glitter belts and jeans, girls? "Marshmallow" oxfords, "Li'l Abner" workboots? DeeCee painters' pants (in white or natural), "French" patchwork denim? Cotton Indian gauze with mirror applique? Flat leather sandals with toe loops (were they called "water buffalos")? >> You must have taken the subway to fashion school. Only in NY. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 14:15:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Stoy Subject: Re: napster cont'd "I will defend my right to use it to get digital copies of the 18 boxes of LP's sitting in my garage (no room in the house for more music)." Brenda If this is what you are using Napster for, then you are absolutely justified in your use. That is indeed fair use. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 17:16:10 -0400 From: Dave Gertler Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC > Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:19:49 -0400 > From: "M & C Urbanski" > Subject: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC > > Since the question arose about no attorneys on the list, I thought it would > be interesting to see what the professions of listers are, I'd be glad to > do the tally and post the results. OK, I admit it -- three years ago I attended law school for a week and half (really!). The morning of my second day, I got a call from the principal of the middle school where I'd filled in for an injured teacher the previous year. He told me the teacher wasn't returning and asked if I'd like her job. I said no at first, but after another week of law school lectures I changed my mind. ;-) So I'm a teacher, which was an early-midlife career change from working in publishing, mainly as an editor of technical journals. I have a feeling this coming year may be my last as a teacher (by my choice) -- the rewards [other than financial] are great, but so are the stresses. I'm spending the summer figuring out what I want to be when I grow up. Dave Gertler ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:18:47 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Sharing RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: > Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. > —Thomas Jefferson Maybe not in nature, but in the human world we have patents and copyright law to protect the sweat and innovation of our writers, artists and inventors. It also provides a monetary incentive, without which, no doubt, alot of technology would not have developed. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 13:18:59 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: > So if I were the major labels I > would make all recordings available on line in one big all you can eat for > $19.99 a month buffet....to download or to stream. And I would support the > development of technology so I can stop selling those unprotected CD's as > quickly as possible. I agree, and both of these solutions are being pursued by the industry, though slowly. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 14:18:05 -0700 From: Richard Goldman Subject: k.d. lang [NJC] Hi folks, I'm going to see k.d. this Friday (along with Sting) from the same seats we saw Joni in at Concord, CA last May . . . (gosh, that seems like yesterday but sounds so distant...). Anyway, one can only hope she sings "Help Me" as she did on the TNT Tribute, but... I'm not holding my breath. What I'm wondering is . . . if anyone knows: we have heard a rumor that one of k.d.'s dogs (or maybe her only dog) currently is undergoing chemotherapy for cancer. The friend I'm going with has a catahoula hound who has colon cancer and she has had two rounds of chemotherapy for it so far. I wanted to try to hook my friend up with k.d. around that issue, but only if it seems like we might go backstage to visit, and didn't want to make a total idiot of myself if it's not true. So.... people here seem to know a lot about a lot of people's lives...and wonder if anyone knows? You can e-mail me privately at: or .. post here if that seems appropriate. Thanks, Richard Goldman richard2sf@earthlink.net N.P.: 'extraordinary thing' - k.d. lang, "invincible summer" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:27:54 +0100 From: Howard Subject: Re: For The Roses Wow, what a little gem! Thanks for posting that Jim. I've got a feeling we could discuss the ins and outs of that one for years to come. Is Joni talking about herself? Yes and no. The subject of the song itself is obviously about someone else - doesn't have to be a particular person, but the James Taylor connection seems strong. And yet Joni is singing about the ups and downs of someone else's career (who happens to be flavour of the month) with experience of or as a reflection of her own ups and downs. After Blue she quit the touring scene, almost disappeared from view, and (though i wasn't there at the time!) I guess she was no longer "flavour of the month". Now she watches someone else's rise and warns them that the fall is probably not too far away. In other words, the horse is running fast now and winning the race, but they'll be getting the gun soon ... I was reading some excellent Zappa interviews recently and he had a lot to say on this kind of thing. He was referring to guitarists specifically, but I think it holds true for musicians in general. He was saying that magazine editors and producers are basically interested in what's HOT. If it ain't HOT it ain't good. So, Eddie Van Halen comes along with his fancy tapping thing, everyone faints and gasps, and Eddie's HOT. After a year or so, every kid on every street corner is doing the fancy guitar tapping thing, and sure enough, some kids can do it faster than Eddie, so Eddie's no longer HOT. It's the new thing, the flavour of the month. Nothing to do with real ability or musicianship or quality, just surface gloss and hype. A good hair cut and jazzy clothes and a good video (with plenty of bare flesh) can go a long way to making you HOT. But if you're actualy interested in *music*, ahh, that's something else ... Howard W. Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >Joni: >"This is another new song. > It's uh.. > It's uh.. called "For The Roses". > That comes from the expression, 'to run for the roses', > 'an 'ya know what that's about. > That's when 'ya take a horse and 'ya know, like > he's chargin' into the finish line and they > throw a wreath of flowers around his neck > and uh... > Then one day, > they take him out and > shoot him. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 14:39:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC Marilyn wrote: > Since the question arose about no attorneys on the > list, I thought it would be interesting to see what > the professions of listers are, I'd be glad to do > the tally and post the results. Office Manager/Administrative Assistant for: 1) "a think tank whose mission is to develop and disseminate new ideas that foster greater economic choice and individual responsibility" and 2) a foundation whose mission is "Advancing Sound Research and Fresh Ideas on K-12 Education Reform" Lori, who always enjoys a poll, in DC ===== http://www.manhattan-institute.org http://www.edexcellence.net "Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything." (George Bernard Shaw) "Life is a banquet. Don't go hungry." (Julian Gonzalez?) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:43:21 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: napster cont'd njc > "I will defend my right to use it to get digital > copies of the 18 boxes of LP's sitting in my garage > (no room in the house for more music)." > Brenda Erin said: > > If this is what you are using Napster for, then you > are absolutely justified in your use. That is indeed > fair use. Really?. Does buying a copy of an album legally entitle you to a free upgrade everytime the technology changes? That would be nice. I could exchange my old worn out vinyl for the CD version, then the remastered version, then the DVD, then the mini memory strip, then the virtual copy.... And to think I have paid for all five of the Hendrix album upgrades. Do you think this applies to cars, too? RR np: illegal Camden NJ BSN tour. thanks Jim (not his real name) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 22:48:48 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: twilight zone NJC > > > Yikes! Here, we get out of our cars too, but usually > only if the officer asks us to. no we get out if we see a policeperson approaching. we don't wait to to told. but then we don't tend to carry guns. > > > ===== > Catherine (in Toronto) > catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca > > _______________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - -- why are they called apartments when they are all stuck together? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 15:37:10 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Joni painting for sale Was $40K, now reduced to $29K.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:03:40 -0700 From: Slac Subject: njc don't forget the njc Bob Wrote: > if the post should have an NJC, put one there. > > Your brothers & sisters who only want Joni posts will appreciate it! :~) Quite frankly Bob, I could care less about the desires of anyone who thinks those who can afford to pay for medical shouldn't pick up the tab for those who can't...I'm sure glad I don't live in the USA 'cause if I did I'd be dead...I have no 'patients' for such cruelty. Susan L.A. I am your angel ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:03:53 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: k.d. lang [NJC] In a message dated 8/1/00 5:35:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richard2sf@earthlink.net writes: << I'm going to see k.d. this Friday (along with Sting) from the same seats we saw Joni in at Concord, CA last May >> Wow Richard, that's great you AND Sting got to see Joni in May and now you're both gonna see k.d. :~) .........just kidding, I'm very envious of you! I don't know anything about k.d.'s dog, but I hope you have a great time. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:12:46 -0700 From: Slac Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC Angel Susan L.A. I am your angel ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:22:20 EDT From: RSTM@aol.com Subject: Up pops a lawyer . . . NJC and long My name is Ron and I am a lawyer. God grant me the serenity. . . . I have been following the Napster thread(s) in digest mode with interest. Last night I wrote this email but as is my habit, I decided to wait a day or so to see if I really wanted to send it. Then, lo and behold, there is a challenge issued: Where are all for lawyers? So here it is: The wonderful thing about law is that, like Joni's songs, they are subject to wild interpretation. This is not just because by nature attorneys are devils with forked tongues who can find ambiguity in the word "No." It's also because laws are necessarily written broadly to cover a range of human conduct. Here, the copyright act is written in first general terms and then, with each new technology, it is amended and re-stretched. The exchange of digital music over the Internet is not one of those technologies that the law expressly contemplates. One can expect that this Napster dispute will generate a rethinking and amendment of the copyright law by Congress much as it did with the Audio Home Recording Act when the music industry worried about losses from digital audio tape players. Some observations regarding what has been written the Napster case. 1. Fair Use as a legal concept is varied and broad; it can cover photocopying library books and parodying a song. In the Napster case, conceptually we are talking about home copying: consumers copying materials for noncommercial purposes. Under the Audio Home Recording Act, it is now law that no copyright infringement lawsuit may be brought based on consumers' noncommercial use of digital or analog recording devices to copy prerecorded music. It is legal to tape a song off of the radio even if you do not own the album. : ) The music industry accepted this for a number of reasons. First, it is impossible to police the practice in any economic fashion. Moreover, to do so would require a significant invasion of privacy to hunt down these rogue copiers. As to copies from analog radio broadcasts, the quality may not be all that good. Also, the performers usually are paid for the broadcast through ASCAP or BMI. Finally, the industry is paid a royalty fee for each digital recording device by the manufacturers. 2. The Betamax case is close to the Napster case because both deal with "contributory infringement." The motion picture industry sued the VCR manufacturers claiming that VCRs could be used to illegally copy copyrighted movies owned by the motion picture studios. The court held that there were a number of fair uses for VCRs, including time switching -- taping a TV show or movie that had been broadcast at one time for viewing at a later time. Again, the concept is an individual can tape something that is being broadcast for private use. The existence of these fair uses show that the VCR is not principally designed to facilitate copyright infringement, hence fair use. Note that one usually copies the commercials as well, so it makes no difference to the broadcaster that the show is taped. The rise of the use of the TIVO television system creates new issues because it can theoretically allow one to avoid watching commercials. Interestingly, TIVO has avoided problems by partnering with television broadcasters and the like and promising not to interfere with commercials. 3. Napster is also being sued for contributory infringement because it facilitates copying of protected material without the consent of the copyright owner. It is an interesting spin on the Betamax case because like a VCR, it can be used to copy unprotected public domain works. Sounds like fair use. However, its most common and popular use is to help copy protected works. Sounds like infringement. Most if not all of the copying is for home use by individuals and not for commercial purposes. Sounds like fair use. But here it is not a copy of a broadcast for which the owner is getting paid. Sounds like infringement. The works being copied also are digital copies, unlike audio and video tapes, they are a very good substitute for the original work. Sounds more like infringement. Finally, this is happening out in the open so it can be policed quite easily. You do not have to invade individual privacy to stop it or to burden the sale of tape players which can be used for non-infringing purposes. Sounds like infringement you can stop. My guess is that the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal will uphold the injunction in time. Unlike VCRs, Napster is too successful at what it set out to do -- bring home copying to the Internet. 4. The damages analysis of Kakki is interesting but not applicable to copyright law. First, you do not need to show damages to get an injunction. In fact, a preliminary injunction may be most appropriate where it is difficult to measure damages. Second, the copyright laws allow the award of statutory damages. This is a range of damages from $750 to a maximum of $30,000 for "garden variety" infringements, and the maximum damage for willful copyright infringement is now $150,000. 5. As someone correctly noted, the source of copyright law is constitutional: To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries; art. I, sec. 8, cl 8. As another noted, however, the law changes over time. The Audio Home Recording Act, is but one example. Congress makes copyright law subject to very little in the way of constitutional limits. So if the Congress wishes to allow copying there is very little the industry can do about it. 6. The suggestion by a poster that the DeCSS case is unlike Betamax is, to my mind, a misreading of that dispute. If you wish to discuss this offline, by all means respond. 7. My reading is that the tape trees sound like copyright infringement to me. My guess is that the second someone starts to make money on these CD's, the record company will come down hard, perhaps even cutting off the List by writing a nasty letter to the website. 8. For those who read the L.A. Times, on the first page there is an article about a band of needlepoint design pirates. The article is probably available on the net by now as well.) These rogues are sharing copyrighted designs on the net, much to the ire of the design publishers. Some of the same rhetoric seen in the Napster case is repeated by the participants there. Interesting reading. This Internet thing is creating havoc all over. Just my opinion, I might be wrong. Ron St. Marie patent, copyright and trademark law Los Angeles, California np: Randy Newman, Its Money that Matters. : 0 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:24:22 -0700 From: Slac Subject: Comic Relief (NJC) To the serious types listside, I'm reading your posts and I'm not complaining...If you have a problem with my naval humour, GET OVER IT! or I'll sic the marines on ya ;~D - -- Susan L.A. I am your angel ;~) NP: The Eagles 'Get Over It' from HELL FREEZES OVER ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:39:51 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC In a message dated 8/1/00 5:31:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: > So if I were the major labels I > would make all recordings available on line in one big all you can eat for > $19.99 a month buffet....to download or to stream. And I would support the > development of technology so I can stop selling those unprotected CD's as > quickly as possible. >> That's fine for the record companies, I suppose, but how do you apportion those royalties out to the performers and songwriters, since your cafeteria plan does not account for them. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:53:56 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Up pops a lawyer . . . NJC and long Wow Ron, that was great!!! Thanks for putting forth all the effort to present the facts so clearly. Bob NP: Dire Straits, "News" (Live & illegal as hell! ;~D) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:01:13 -0400 (EDT) From: zaide912@webtv.net Subject: professions of JMDL NJC I am a supervisor of a group home for developmentally disabled adults . I used to be a cameraman for a local NBC affiliate. Before that I worked in a grocery store Before that I had a paper route Before that I dried the dishes while my sister washed for .50 allowance :) Love to All:) Kevin NP: Dead Can Dance "Cantara" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:51:06 -0400 (EDT) From: zaide912@webtv.net Subject: male songwriters NJC Not only is Graceland a great work, the follow-up was even better IMHO!!! RHYTHM OF THE SAINTS has a flow to it I rarely hear in newer releases since the classic albums of the 60's and 70's . I remember my friend and I dancing madly to the intense beat of the new material on the Rhythm of the Saints tour (in winter coats yet!!!) Paul with his smooth vocals and great percussion section took us far far away that night and we couldn't have been any farther from the Civic Arena in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania! I can still smell the Bouganvilla if I try real hard! Any JMDL people in the Pittsburgh area? Peace to All Kevin NP: Lone Justice "Shelter" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 10:46:04 +0000 From: Michael Paz Subject: Napster Brenda wrote: > > Finally, if you have gotten or shared a single bit of music, video or interview > from the tape trees or any other source, (and I don't know if you have or not) > then you really can't cast stones at Napster or it's users. > then Colin (in feathers) wrote: Much to my shame Brenda you have just written what i was too chicken to! I have been rather astounded at some of the self deceit and rationalisation being written on this subject. OK, Kids play nice! This issue is indeed a sensitive one. While I am as guilty as hell when it comes to live recordings of Joni and other artists, I have always wondered what Joni would think of it. My gut tells me that she could give a crap about the "live" stuff or "TV" stuff. She probably could even care less about her record company (s), but the issue with Napster involves bands that are breaking out as well as current million sellers. The really scary thing is stuff that hasn't even been released to market yet. THAT IS TOTALLY WRONG!!!!! It might come from a studio employee who dupes a copy of the final mix and posts it for the world to copy, without the artists permission. I would never dream of downloading stuff like that. Live shows of Joni and many other artists though I find irrisitable. There are many artists like the Dead, Dave Matthews Band, The Radiators, that allow taping and even provide "Press Feeds" for the tapers to insure a better quality sound. I, personally am a "music slut" (direct decendant from Bob Muller, King of the Music Sluts) I collect music like a madman. I already have every Dave Matthews official release, but I find myself downloading his latest shows for variety. And of course I will purchase everything else he evers puts out. Someone I was speakinf to here at the hospital asked me about Napster when they found out I was in the biz and told me that they will NEVER BUY A CD EVER AGAIN! This is dreadful news for ALL artists. Just ask Fred Simon, Kate Bennett, Victor Johnson, or any of the other songwriters that make their daily bread from selling music either on recorded form or live. Believe it or not there are tons of people out there that can justify themselves ripping off musicians, software developers, screen artists, or whatever just to get FREE stuff. I like free stuff as much as the next person, but I believe there has to be limitations in this whole issue. I am sure we have not heard the end of it either. Peace and music, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 10:48:38 +0000 From: Michael Paz Subject: From the Mayo (NJC) Everything is still the same here at The Mayo Clinic. He is much more himself today and I am feeling better too. We are on our way out to dinner and to buy my dad something for his 83rd Birthday tomorrow. Thanks again to all for the private emails and good wishes. My best to all of you and hope to be back in full force soon. Peace Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:37:15 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: k.d. lang [NJC] jimmy!!! you stole my joke!!! like parent, like child....[notice the gender neutral style!] wallyk > > Wow Richard, that's great you AND Sting got to see Joni in May and now you're > both gonna see k.d. :~) .........just kidding, I'm very envious of you ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 17:38:18 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC It absolutely does. You can pay royalties to publishers, writers and performers per play or per download or percentages thereof. Incidently, if the current record buying population bought in at that price, the industry (and I do mean the music industry not record companies)as a whole would gross more $$$ and see higher margins. Brenda IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/1/00 5:31:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > guitarzan@saber.net writes: > > << > "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: > > > So if I were the major labels I > > would make all recordings available on line in one big all you can eat for > > $19.99 a month buffet....to download or to stream. And I would support the > > development of technology so I can stop selling those unprotected CD's as > > quickly as possible. > >> > That's fine for the record companies, I suppose, but how do you apportion > those royalties out to the performers and songwriters, since your cafeteria > plan does not account for them. > > Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:50:33 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Fw: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC > > > I am in the mental health field. > > > > > > Marilyn > > > > I am in left field. > > > > Mark's partner Travis in Shoreline (near Seattle) Washington Above is Travis's response to Marilyn's question that he sent to her but not to the list. I thought you all should see it. I am a corporate account specialist for an air express company. In other words, I am a flunky. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:46:19 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Up pops a lawyer . . . NJC and long > My name is Ron and I am a lawyer. God grant me the >serenity. . . . Hi Ron, how cool for you to pop up and be an L.A. intellectual property lawyer to boot! ;-) A few comments: > Finally, this is happening out in the open so it can be >policed quite easily. You do not have to invade individual >privacy to stop it or to burden the sale of tape players which >can be used for non-infringing purposes. Sounds like >infringement you can stop. My guess is that the Ninth >Circuit Court of Appeal will uphold the injunction in time. >Unlike VCRs, Napster is too successful at what it set out to >do -- bring home copying to the Internet. My guess is also that it will be upheld. As it stands now everything is free on Napster - the program, the downloads, etc. and there are apparently no fees of any kind being paid to anyone. However, like many have pointed out, even if Napster was shut down, another and then another would take their place. I guess if those enterprises are based in the U.S., they could also be regulated, shut down or stopped. But I wonder about other Napster-type enterprises based outside the U.S. and making their program available on the internet. How would they be regulated or stopped? Maybe some other countries would follow some international agreement to regulate them, but many other countries would probably not. Look at the number of countries around the world where bootlegging of artists' recordings is not illegal. I don't know that there is an answer to this, but I can see it coming down the road. The music industry, et al., could try to go after them in their own countries, but it may probably be very difficult to pursue the suit or even locate some of the principals. > 4. The damages analysis of Kakki is interesting but not >applicable to copyright law. Aw well, it WAS kind of dumb, but my point was that our tape trading activities here are such small potatoes, and no one is making a profit from them, that I can't see where any court would take us too seriously. The recordings are usually several years old, definitely not state-of-the-art, and no one is making a dime from them. Occasionally someone on eBay may try to sell one for a few bucks but those "bootleggers" always seem to be quickly squelched. This type of tape trading goes on with several other music lists on the internet and I'm aware of a few well-known artists who give their permission for it. We don't have formal permission from Joni, but I've been told she is aware of it. I'm not saying that makes everything legal and proper, but it seems that most artists are not bothered by this particular type of copying and sharing. By the way, if we are trading her live concert performances, would the record company have any right to shut us down or write us a nasty letter? As far as we know, only Joni has the rights to all her songs because she owns her own publishing. > Second, the copyright laws allow the award of > statutory damages. This is a range of damages from $750 to >a maximum of $30,000 for "garden variety" infringements, >and the maximum damage for willful copyright infringement is >now $150,000. This would mean that even in the absence of any actual damages, the court could award damages as a sort of penalty or fine for the infringment? > Congress makes copyright law subject to very little in the > way of constitutional limits. So if the Congress wishes to >allow copying there is very little the industry can do about it. But considering the issues in this particular Napster case it's hard for me to see Congress overturning the well-established legal rights of the copyright owners in favor of the end-users who want to take it for free. If Congress makes bad new law, it can still be challenged legally, though, can't not? Oh geez, Ron, here I go again ;-) I think we all appreciate your input here. I don't mean to be a nerd about it - I just like to see legal stuff clarified because so much batted around out in the media or any vehicle that disseminates information can be erroneous and give people the wrong understanding. Thank you for clarifying this stuff. Kakki P.S. Hope you will join some of us L.A. jmdlers one time for a get-together, too! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:29:31 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni painting for sale Scott let us know that: << Was $40K, now reduced to $29K.... >> OK everyone, my birthday is this month. I think everyone could chip in for this little trinket for me, dontcha think? Hugs, Ashara www.photon.net/lightnet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:41:45 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Napster I'm really sick of this Napster stuff but I had to add my 2 cents to this. Michael, how is this any different from when several people had TTT weeks before the official CD came out? As I recall you had a copy and made it available to certain list members. And who knows who they made copies for. At 10:46 AM +0000 9/21/09, Michael Paz wrote: >The really scary thing is stuff that hasn't even been released to >market yet. THAT IS TOTALLY WRONG!!!!! It might come from a studio >employee who dupes a copy of the final mix and posts it for the >world to copy, without the artists permission. I would never dream >of downloading stuff like that. - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:50:54 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni painting for sale NJC << OK everyone, my birthday is this month. I think everyone could chip in for this little trinket for me, dontcha think? >> Well, you certainly deserve it for all you've done for us all!! I'll pitch in the $29 part, if somebody else wants to handle that "K" part, you're home free! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 19:43:34 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: women in the arts & P Poland Bob, To answer your question, I agree with you about this, it bugs me too. You wrote "but it always strikes me as sexist when gender is used to define women in the arts. It just seems like the media's way of subtly creating a subclass (female) of people within a category. I wonder if it bugs Joni and other women in the arts as much as it bugs me. and Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: "Does anyone know what ever happened to Pamela Polland?" I saw her about a year ago at a Bonnie Raitt Concert- she came out & sang harmony on a song. I think she lives in LA or the S Cal area.... ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:15:16 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC In a message dated 8/1/2000 10:32:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: << Since the question arose about no attorneys on the list, I thought it would be interesting to see what the professions of listers are, I'd be glad to do the tally and post the results. I am in the mental health field. Marilyn >> I am in the health profession. I am a Professional Massage Therapist, and Aerobic, Step, Spinning and Yoga Instructor. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:18:30 -0400 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: The Profession poll so far....(NJC) LAW: 2-paralegals 1-court reporter 1-attorney MENTAL HEALTH: 1-mental health worker 1-psychotherapist/social worker 1-supervisor of a group home (developmental disabilities) TEACHING: 1-teacher (former publisher) 1-admissions consultant for grad school BUSINESS: 1-investment advisor 1-corporate account specialist 1-office mgmt/administrative asst. 1-researcher in executive research 1-retail manager (books) 1-advertising copywriter COMMUNICATIONS: 1-broadcast journalist MISC: 1-in left field 1-angel 1-house queen 1-art history student LIFE'S WORK (supported by one of the above careers) painter/sculptor writer/poet playwright Send more! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:20:02 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Napster << Michael, how is this any different from when several people had TTT weeks before the official CD came out? As I recall you had a copy and made it available to certain list members. And who knows who they made copies for. >> I should let Michael answer, but I'm willing to bet he BOUGHT a copy of TTT when it was available...in my mind anyway, that would be the difference. Bob NP: Dire Straits, "Solid Rock" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:32:03 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Napster downloading/JMDL moral dilemma SJC In a message dated 8/1/00 8:44:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, brenda@killinggoliath.com writes: << It absolutely does. You can pay royalties to publishers, writers and performers per play or per download or percentages thereof. >> How do you do that if you are not COLLECTING them that way, but in some sort of monthly subscription or cafeteria plan? It doesn't work. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:52:10 -0400 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC Mags...that's really interesting all the things you've been involved in! Caught my eye...probably since I write too and am a sociology major. I guess now here goes mine... I am a sociology major at Temple University (4th year but not graduating yet...lol) I have 2 jobs that are just that...jobs...not professions...one is at a bridal shop...doing everything from alterations to selling to customer service. And the other is doing some software design and programming. Fun fun... And then there is always writing...I write journals full of poetry...not a job...but I try to do stuff w/ it sometimes. I think that's it...LOL! Take care Nikki NP: Fleetwood Mac "Silver Springs" 1977 > -----Original Message----- > Im a writer (life writing, poetry, stories) and to put bread on > my table I am > part of the management team at Indigo Books here in Canada...my > work history is > really varied...I am a freelance artist (signage, lettering, > calligraphic art), > Ive worked as a pharmaceutical technician in Ontario and Nova Scotia, Ive > worked in two graphic arts establishments, Ive done advocacy work > for women > (violence against women), Ive worked in the adoption field vis a > vis search, > research and support and advocacy work. And these are just the > main things. > Lots of little things on the side..Ive worked in literacy programmes with > kids...(kids are one of my greatest weaknesses...i feel they are highly > undervalued in our society)..Ive done editorial work, > newsletters, writing for > journals and such. > > hmmm thats about all i can come up with now. > > Mags "Ever since I was a baby girl the one thing I wanted most in this world was to keep my love alive" ~ Heart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 22:54:13 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC Marilyn, who once lived in my home town writes: << I thought it would be interesting to see what the professions of listers are, I'd be glad to do the tally and post the results. >> Contrary to beliefs that I'm a figure skater, I own an insurance agency. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:20:50 EDT From: "Blair Fraipont" Subject: Men with Soul?!! Hell Yea Hey, i think you are all forgetting one great male Songwriters... Frank Zappa!! UH HA!! I knew you would agree. I mean come on He was a great story teller in my opinon (Dont eat the Yellow Snow, Gregory Peccary, Goes Garage) and who had a grasp on reality. I mean, to me, it is to have an imagination, and Frank had that and was Definitely deeply connected to the music he was composing/releasing. And Who could forget Captain Beefheart---A fantastic singer.. or.. Roberta Flack.. Yea, the whole idea that ALL men are in it for only their egos is proposterous.. i meann.. come on i agree with the person..who made the Celine Dion/Otis Redding comparison... okay.. take care NP: Can--"Father Can't Yell" blair ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:36:54 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Mendel exhibit book NJC In a message dated 7/27/00 5:38:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, RoseMJoy@aol.com writes: << Deb, when did you order yours? I haven't received mine yet. :~( They hit my account on about the 14th and I think that I ordered it about 4 business days prior to that. Still not here yet. I'm beginning to get worried, as I live in a large apartment complex. Rose >> Dear Rose, I ordered my Mendel catalog on, I think, the day of the show's opening: the 30th (my birthday!) and it just came to me here, in New York City (in this huge apartment complex I live in) on Saturday, a month later. So hang in there Rose. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:58:30 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: twilight zone NJC Catherine McKay wrote: > --- catman wrote: > > > > > > and had *no* accent that I could discern, > > > > I don't have an accent. To you and the Americans, I > > sound like i have an > > English accent but I don't have an english accent of > > the type that would > > indicate where in the UK I come from. This is > > because I l;ived abroad > > most of my life till 17yrs old. I once had a braod > > Aussie accent from > > lving there for 5 years. Now I have a nothing > > accent. > > > No you don't - *I* have a nothing accent! So there! > > ===== > Catherine (in Toronto) > catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca now now now Catherine...you know darn well we Canadians do not have an accent at all! :)) Mags, who really should be in bed but isnt.... np: music for insomniacs none other than James T's greatest hits > > > _______________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 00:17:18 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC Nikki Johnson wrote: > Mags...that's really interesting all the things you've been involved in! > Caught my eye...probably since I write too and am a sociology major. I guess > now here goes mine... > I am a sociology major at Temple University (4th year but not graduating > yet...lol) > I have 2 jobs that are just that...jobs...not professions...one is at a > bridal shop...doing everything from alterations to selling to customer > service. And the other is doing some software design and programming. Fun > fun... > And then there is always writing...I write journals full of poetry...not a > job...but I try to do stuff w/ it sometimes. I think that's it...LOL! > Take care > Nikki > > NP: Fleetwood Mac "Silver Springs" 1977 > > > -----Original Message----- > > Im a writer (life writing, poetry, stories) and to put bread on > > my table I am > > part of the management team at Indigo Books here in Canada...my > > work history is > > really varied...I am a freelance artist (signage, lettering, > > calligraphic art), > > Ive worked as a pharmaceutical technician in Ontario and Nova Scotia, Ive > > worked in two graphic arts establishments, Ive done advocacy work > > for women > > (violence against women), Ive worked in the adoption field vis a > > vis search, > > research and support and advocacy work. And these are just the > > main things. > > Lots of little things on the side..Ive worked in literacy programmes with > > kids...(kids are one of my greatest weaknesses...i feel they are highly > > undervalued in our society)..Ive done editorial work, > > newsletters, writing for > > journals and such. > > > > hmmm thats about all i can come up with now. > > > > Mags > "Ever since I was a baby girl the one thing I wanted most in this world was > to keep my love alive" ~ Heart i forgot to mention that i have a degree in women's studies and english (cross women studies coursed mostly) and yes some formal lit and english courses, theory and such. i only mention this because i just graduated two years ago (as a "mature" student ... a truly laughable term) in the face of so many people in my life who said i wouldnt/couldnt do it because i wasnt smart enough. yea, right. made it to the deans list two years in a row and am being published this summer as part of a project for the office of the status of women. i guess alot of surreal things are happening lately. mags...going to bed now...honest. np: the teddy bear picnic j/k - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 00:28:18 +0000 From: Kenny Grant Subject: Re: Joni painting for sale NJC I'm with you Bob, Ashara's contributions to the list, her parties, and her eagerness to make dubs certainly qualify her.... The "Ks" aren't all that abundant, but I think I could scape up $29 :-) -Kenny ps Happy Birthday, Ashara!!! SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > << OK everyone, my birthday is this month. I think everyone could chip in for > this little trinket for me, dontcha think? >> > > Well, you certainly deserve it for all you've done for us all!! > I'll pitch in the $29 part, if somebody else wants to handle that "K" part, > you're home free! :~) > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 11:11:37 +0000 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: Napster Mark wrote: << Michael, how is this any different from when several people had TTT weeks before the official CD came out? As I recall you had a copy and made it available to certain list members. And who knows who they made copies for. >> then Bob wrote: "I should let Michael answer, but I'm willing to bet he BOUGHT a copy of TTT when it was available...in my mind anyway, that would be the difference." Mark- I didn't realize you had copied the list on your email. Please post my private response to you on the issue in question so I don't have to retype my response to you. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:22:56 -0600 From: evian Subject: what are the professions of JM listers(A poll) NJC Mags wrote: > Im a writer (life writing, poetry, stories) and to put bread on my table I am > part of the management team at Indigo Books here in Canada... > Mags darling, I am one of your biggest customers.... sooooo... how about some inside scoop on when there are Indigo coupons to be found? ;) Evian, roasting in the hideous Saskatchewan heat... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:30:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Napster Mark wrote: > Michael, how is this any different from when several people >had TTT weeks before the official CD came out? As I recall >you had a copy and made it available to certain list >members. And who knows who they made copies for. Well, I don't mean to answer for Michael, either, and would like to see his private response posted, but here's how I remember it - Michael received several *official* promo copies of the TTT album through his work in the music business. He generously shared them with a number of listmembers. The promos are given away by the record company with the expectation of being given away to others to promote the album. Freebies authorized by the record company and the copyright owner. And I also would bet a whole lot of money that every person who received these promos went out and bought the album when it was released. As I recall, in fact, several of us bought multiple copies. Mark, you are sick of this thread - so are a lot of people. I am sick of people comparing apples to oranges on this issue. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #428 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?