From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #425 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Monday, July 31 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 425 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Miles of Aisles Questions ["Reuben Bell" ] RE:Jericho!! ["Peg Eves" ] RE: Leonard Cohen, ambition & sincerityNJC ["Peg Eves" ] Shiny Toys! [Les Irvin ] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #422, youth today [catman ] Re: Covers Train Keeps A Rollin' [Catherine McKay ] Hostage smiles on presidents [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Case reopened: It's Just Sharing NJC [Matthew Snyder ] response to Bruce Merrill,re: young'uns ["c Karma" ] Re: another thought re: napster (njc) ["Alison Einerson" ] Re: RE: For the Roses/PIANO! [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Joni on TV tonight ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: Napster downloading SJC ["Kakki" ] A couple more Joni moments ["Van Metre, Gordon" ] Case Wide Open (NJC) ["Susan" ] Ambition & sincerityNJC [Don Rowe ] Re: Napster downloading SJC ["Kakki" ] RE: SJC - '70s Male Singer/Songwriters ["Nikki Johnson" ] Re: Napster downloading SJC [catman ] Re: Napster downloading njc [RandyRemote ] Re: Just Asking, NJC [RandyRemote ] Re: Napster, case closed and all that other intellectual property [RandyR] Re: Napster's still up and downloading njc [RandyRemote Subject: Re: Miles of Aisles Questions "Jericho" appeared three years later on "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter", and is one of the standouts on this album, as far as I'm concened. I LOVE this song! I've never seen "Love or Money" anywhere else. Reuben >>> "Eric Wilcox" 07/31/00 11:16AM >>> WEll, just picked up MOA and I have a few questions. First, were Jericho and Love or Money ever released on subsequent albums? Further-- can anyone tell me how much was lost when this 2LP set was transferred to CD? I hear that most of the middle parts were cut out-- IE, Joni talking and such. There's a few spots on this disc where the editing is SLOPPY-- so I just wonder. thanks! eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:22:59 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE:Jericho!! and is one of the standouts on this album, as far as > I'm concened. I LOVE this song! > Reuben Yes Reuben! Jericho. Doesn't that song just shoot you to the moon or what!!Not just a standout on the record, a standout in the universe of song!! Peg > -----O > , > > >>> "Eric Wilcox" 07/31/00 11:16AM >>> > WEll, just picked up MOA and I have a few questions. > > First, were Jericho and Love or Money ever released on subsequent albums? > > Further-- can anyone tell me how much was lost when this 2LP set was > transferred to CD? I hear that most of the middle parts were cut > out-- IE, > Joni talking and such. There's a few spots on this disc where the editing > is SLOPPY-- so I just wonder. > > thanks! > > eric > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:27:17 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Leonard Cohen, ambition & sincerityNJC Leonards Cohen's "Future" is ambitious, gravely sincere and splendidly expressive. Don't you think. But, as compared to HOSL? ? ? I don't know.What do you think? Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > IVPAUL42@aol.com > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 11:42 AM > To: merrillb@crisny.org; erinstoy77@yahoo.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: comments on last digest SJC, ambition & sincerity > > > In a message dated 7/31/00 11:38:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > merrillb@crisny.org writes: > > << Let me put my point as a question: Are you aware of any > songs/albums by a > man which are as ambitious as Joni's Hissing, and also sincere and > expressive? If so I would love to learn about them. >> > > Late for the Sky, which came out about the same time. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:30:37 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Cohen NJC ambition & sincerity > ----- > << Let me put my point as a question: Are you aware of any > songs/albums by a > man which are as ambitious as Joni's Hissing, and also sincere and > expressive? If so I would love to learn about them. >> > > Late for the Sky, which came out about the same time. Leonard Cohen's "Future" Peg > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:59:09 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Shiny Toys! Joniphiles - I'm pleased to announce that Ken Slarty has accepted my invitation to house his collection of Joni icons, cursors, screen savers, and midi files on the JMDL site. He has dubiously dubbed it the "Shiny Toys" section. Check it out here: http://www.jmdl.com/shinytoys Thanks Ken, for all your work on the new section. Les NP: Rickie Lee Jones "Scary Chinese Movie" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:47:34 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #422, youth today well, I know I wouldn't have appreciated Joni at 7 & 10 either!!! I remember the Tom Jones, Humperdink, Petula Clark, Monkees etc hits then-thay all had singalong melodys' even tho I didn't understand the words. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:50:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Case reopened: It's Just Sharing NJC - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Recently, I had a JMDL'er ask me to make a copy of > DED for him. This was an > honorable request; he had shopped and shopped for it > and had come to a dead > end (DED end?)in his search. He was willing to make > a donation to the website > as compensation, so there was nothing funny going > on. Still, I didn't feel > comfortable doing it. I *Don't* make copies of > commercially available CD's or > tapes*. > > I simply ran to my local record store and picked up > a mint copy of DED for my > friend, and at only $6.99 to boot (oops, poor word > choice there! :~D) DED is available from CDNow - I just received a copy of it (slowly replacing my vinyl with CD versions). I'm sure it's available from other online sources as well, if not in stores. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:59:30 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Napster downloading SJC > > > Finally, if you have gotten or shared a single bit of music, video or interview > from the tape trees or any other source, (and I don't know if you have or not) > then you really can't cast stones at Napster or it's users. > Much to my shame Brenda you have just written what i was too chicken to! I have been rather astounded at some of the self deceit and rationalisation being written on this subject. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:57:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Covers Train Keeps A Rollin' - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Hi Gang, > > Just a quick note to the 'hunters and gatherers' out > there...the following > covers have been nabbed and will be added to Volume > 9 and will probably kick > off Volume 10... > > For Free - Petula Clark Petula Clark!?! When did she do that? ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:02:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: comments on last digest SJC - --- Erin Stoy wrote: > Some comments on posts from the last digest... >I actually DON'T copy movies, but > that's > not the point here. > *When people copy movies from tv, they are usually > not > then making thousands of copies for other people to > have. Napster makes it possible for thousands (or > millions, depending on how many people want it) to > own > a song without paying royalties to the artist or > helping to cover the huge costs incurred by the > record > companies (and here I am talking about all the costs > a > record label incurs in finding talent and investing > in > it, not the cost of CD production). Who pays for Napster? How do they stay in business? What if they paid royalties to the artists or the record companies? ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:07:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "For The Roses", circa 1972 When you're a winner, you are that for a very short time, and while you're a winner, sure, everyone loves you. But at some point you've overstayed your welcome, or you can't keep up with your image, so you either fade into oblivion (yesterday's news) or, if you're a horse and you stumble and break your leg, they shoot you. (I love Joni's sick sense of humour!) - --- Mark Domyancich wrote: > I guess she was drawing a parallel between her > career and the life of > a horse. "Lilac sprays" and the wreath of flowers, > IMO. > > NP-Peter Rowan, 6/93-Panama Red > > At 8:44 PM -0400 7/30/00, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > >Why is Joni talking about shooting a winner? Is > she just being mean? > >Doesn't everyone love a winner, as the expression > goes? > > -- > Mark Domyancich > Harpua@revealed.net > tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ > "Close it yourself, shitty!" ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:24:24 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Napster downloading SJC In a message dated 7/31/00 11:07:04 AM, brenda@killinggoliath.com writes: >Technically, it is not stealing, it's infringing. Ethically, morally, karmic-ally ... it's stealing. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:40:30 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: "For The Roses", circa 1972 In a message dated 7/31/00 2:13:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca writes: << if you're a horse and you stumble and break your leg, they shoot you. (I love Joni's sick sense of humour!) >> "They shoot Horses,don't they?"If you want to see a depressing movie,see that one... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:44:13 -0400 From: "Ken (slarty)" Subject: Re: Napster downloading SJC As Homer Simpson would say: That's for the courts to decide. FredNow@aol.com wrote:Ethically, morally, karmic-ally ... it's stealing. > > -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:45:59 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Hostage smiles on presidents I've been thinking about "Shadows and light",and wondering about some of the lyrics.I never knew what Joni meant when she sang "hostage smiles on presidents",and "freedom scribbled in the subway".but now my guess is that she is contrasting different extremes on the continuum of reality.the presidents who feel like hostages, and subway riders who feel they have alot of freedom.Is my interpretation wrong?Does anyone have any other ideas? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:49:57 -0400 From: Matthew Snyder Subject: Re: Case reopened: It's Just Sharing NJC >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:31:24 -0400 >From: Deb Messling >Subject: Re: Case reopened: It's Just Sharing NJC > >My bro-in-law told me last night that in the forties, his dad had a machine >that recorded off the radio and cut LPs - 78s. Can anyone verify if such >a machine existed? I'd take bro's word for it except he also tells about >the time he saw a little orange man in his living room. Yes, they existed, and the resulting discs are known as radio transcriptions. This is back in the days when live broadcasts were not recorded by anyone else, not even the network, so the only way to preserve the stuff was by fanatics at home. That's the only reason we have a lot of "airchecks" of the Ellington band, Goodman, the Dorseys, etc., music which would have been totally lost otherwise. Matt Snyder msnyder@dragonfire.net http://msnyder.dragonfire.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:55:07 -0500 From: "Van Metre, Gordon" Subject: Other voices / Can men sing with the soul? NJC Mark in Seattle wrote: "Iris Dement has one of the most unique voices of anybody I've heard. It has a distinctly old-time-country sound to it. She's also a very competent songwriter. Her songs are heartfelt & down to earth, often of the old C&W heartbreak school. However, she's usually classified in the folk section of most record stores. I've read that they used her song 'Our Town' on the last episode of Northern Exposure. Since I've never seen the last episode (or the birth of Shelley's baby, dang it!), I can't say for sure but that's what I've read." I love Iris Dement, and that song ('Our Town' ) is one that can bring the tears to my eyes. I'm getting goosebumps here and now thinking about it. I just love the strength and fragility of her voice. Unfortunately I don't own any of her records, but I've heard it on Prairie Home Companion and a local public radio folk program, and she performed it live (which I only heard on the radio) at the Kent State Folk Festival last year (or was it the year before?). There is very little music that has such a profound effect on me. Not even any Joni has made me tear up the way this song does. The only other things I can think of that has the same effect are, oddly enough, the Peter Gabriel duet with Sinéad, 'The Blood of Eden', and Paul Winter's 'Minuit' which doesn't even have lyrics (to speak of). I don't know what it is. Must be something in the range or register that strikes me deeply. Like an ambulance can get a dog howling. Woof. Not that she has any of the songwriting strength of a Joni or an Iris, but I am love with Maura O'Connell. She is avowedly not a songwriter, but her singing is pure heaven. Try "Blue is the Colour of Hope" for starters. She knows how to pick 'em, and MAN can she sing 'em! As for the men/women thread, I tend to agree with Bruce that "what makes these women's work impressive and effective and excellent is that their ambitions (as musicians and songwriters) remain joined to their desire to express themselves sincerely-- even while the personal expressivity is enlarged or sublimated into other topics." I once told a friend I thought that singers were divided into those who sing from the soul and those who sing from the ego. A corollary might well be that mostly women sing from the soul and men from the ego. Still, I can think of a few men where I feel like they break the mold, e.g., Paul Simon, Peter Gabriel & Sting (and talk about putting "real effort into their singing"), and maybe Bono of U2 (though I think there's some ego at play there). Submitted for you consideration by Gordon in Kent, Ohio USA "Be gone! Before someone drops a house on you!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:05:28 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) catman wrote: >>I was wondering how Napster make money? The program is free. This is not a >>facetious question. Ultimately, the owner of Napster hopes to maneuver into a position of market power and then sell the company for a huge sum. And he will. Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:49:13 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: For the Roses/PIANO! > The piano! The piano! The piano! > Fred Simon Fred, I know! I was just listening to it last night. Very RICH & provocative - that Joni piano. > It lifts you up while pulling you under. Peg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:10:56 GMT From: "c Karma" Subject: response to Bruce Merrill,re: young'uns Start 'em early. That's what I say. While my 5 year old Nic recognizes Joni's voice instantly (usually positively but he still prefers to listen to the Beatles'"Yellow Submarine"), 8 year old Amelia knows all the words to "Comes Love." Hell, I think even Joni has problems remembering all of them. Now if I could just get their mother to stop rolling her eyes when she realizes what's coming from the loudspeakers...I can't blame her actually: the competition (HA!) is tough. It's been an especially active Joni year, maybe I've overloaded her circuits. CC "When I was three feet tall and wide-eyed open to it all..." -- JM ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:50:28 -0600 From: "Alison Einerson" Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) it was my understanding that the young owner of napster had already enlisted several venture capitalists, one of whom is now running the business. is this not true? alison e. in slc. (admitting...i have never even been to the napster site.) - ---------- >From: FredNow@aol.com >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) >Date: Mon, Jul 31, 2000, 1:05 PM > >catman wrote: > > >>>I was wondering how Napster make money? The program is free. This is not a > >>>facetious question. > >Ultimately, the owner of Napster hopes to maneuver into a position of market >power and then sell the company for a huge sum. And he will. > >Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:40:09 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Joni on TV tonight Just a reminder for tonight, which Julius was so kind to let us know last week. (In case you don't have the JMDL video tape tree) Julius wrote: Joni is at #87. "100 Greatest Rock & Roll Moments on TV" airs as a five-hour, five-night special debuting Monday, July 31, to Friday, August 4, from 10:00-11:00 p.m. (ET/PT) each night. (On Tuesday-Friday, each new premiere installment will be immediately preceded by a repeat airing of the previous episodes.) The entire special will be repeated on Saturday, August 5 from 2:00-7:00 p.m. (ET/PT), and Sunday, August 6 at 4:00-9:00 p.m. (ET/PT). "100 GREATEST ROCK & ROLL MOMENTS ON TV" 87 GRACE SLICK, CROSBY, STILLS & NASH, JONI MITCHELL and others fresh from Woodstock appear on THE DICK CAVETT SHOW. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:56:31 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: SJC - '70s Male Singer/Songwriters CDNOW has a Buyer's Guide called '70s Male Singer/Songwriters on their site right now. The following is their list along with albums CDNOW picked to review: James Taylor, Sweet Baby James Jackson Browne, The Pretender Paul Simon, Paul Simon Warren Zevon, I'll Sleep When I'm Dead Randy Newman, Sail Away Harry Chapin, Greatest Stories Live Jim Croce, Photographs and Memories John Denver, Greatest Hits Billy Joel, The Stranger Elton John, Honky Chateau Cat Stevens, Classics John Lennon, Plastic Ono Band Harry Nilsson, Nilsson Schmilsson John Prine, John Prine Tom Waits, Small Change Neil Young, Harvest Bob Dylan, Blood on the Tracks Gordon Lightfoot, Gord's Gold Loudon Wainwright III, Live One Al Stewart, Greatest Hits Bruce Springstein, Stevie Wonder and Jagger/Richard were also writing and performing during this period, but I guess CDNOW's list is more about the acoustic, sound-hole-on-your-knee kind of guys. Although several of these men died young and thus had shorter careers than Joni has had, and one, Cat Stevens, left show business, Joni is right up there with the best. She's number one on my list of singer/songwriters as anyone who knows me will tell you. Yet I think it's odd that she's always referred to in the media as "one of the best FEMALE singer/songwriters of her generation." I can understand someone being called the best female tennis player or marathoner or figure skater, but it always strikes me as sexist when gender is used to define women in the arts. It just seems like the media's way of subtly creating a subclass (female) of people within a category. I wonder if it bugs Joni and other women in the arts as much as it bugs me. Discovering my pissed-off inner feminist, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:02:19 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: NJC - Pamela Polland, singer/songwriter Does anyone know what ever happened to Pamela Polland? I saw her perform several times in the '70s and she had at least one album (titled "Pamela Polland," oddly enough). I lost the album in my first breakup, and I've never heard her name again. I've searched Amazon and CDNOW and she's not listed. Thanks, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 00:25:58 +0000 From: Michael Paz Subject: OK For Now (NJC) Hi Everybody- Thanks for all the good wishes. Everything is ok for now. Still running tests etc. He looks terrible, but he was glad to see me and we spent alot of time together this morning. He is obviously very scared and he is terribly disoriented. The surgery has been postponed till Thursday for now because he has had some blood clotting. I hate the constant waiting for results and the next test. When I got in this morning there was like 8 doctors in the room with my dad and he had a frightened look on his face, only because unlike me and dear old mom, he is uncomfortable in groups anyway. He was very relieved that I showed up when I did and sort of took over. There was two actual doctors and the rest were residents/students. I noticed thaat they travel in packs around here. The staff is nice and I am impressed with the magnitude of this facility. We are actually at St. Mary's Hospital. I will keep you informed thru this list. To Steve Polifka, Bob Muller, y Los Mixon's de Santa Cruz, I mailed packages to you from lovely Rochester, Mn. so you should have them in a few days. Be well everyone and I look forward to keeping up with things now that I know that I am still connected from up here in DamnYankeeLand. Peace, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:04:52 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: For the Roses/PIANO! In a message dated 7/31/00 2:11:01 PM, peves@marlboro.edu writes: >> The piano! The piano! The piano! >> Fred Simon > >Fred, >I know! I was just listening to it last night. Very RICH & provocative >that Joni piano. > It lifts you up while pulling you under. >Peg Yeah, I really miss it. And the incredible thing is that it's all native talent, no academic knowledge, not that there's anything at all wrong with that but what I mean to say is that her harmonic/melodic thing is so far advanced for a "naif" ... compared to say, Jackson Brown, for instance, and his same 4 chords for almost every song he's ever written. And Joni has been able to produce this very rich harmonic self-invented language on piano and guitar ... simply astounding. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:10:26 -0400 From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Joni on TV tonight What channel is this airing on? Reuben >>> 07/31/00 03:40PM >>> Just a reminder for tonight, which Julius was so kind to let us know last week. (In case you don't have the JMDL video tape tree) Julius wrote: Joni is at #87. "100 Greatest Rock & Roll Moments on TV" airs as a five-hour, five-night special debuting Monday, July 31, to Friday, August 4, from 10:00-11:00 p.m. (ET/PT) each night. (On Tuesday-Friday, each new premiere installment will be immediately preceded by a repeat airing of the previous episodes.) The entire special will be repeated on Saturday, August 5 from 2:00-7:00 p.m. (ET/PT), and Sunday, August 6 at 4:00-9:00 p.m. (ET/PT). "100 GREATEST ROCK & ROLL MOMENTS ON TV" 87 GRACE SLICK, CROSBY, STILLS & NASH, JONI MITCHELL and others fresh from Woodstock appear on THE DICK CAVETT SHOW. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:05:15 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Napster downloading SJC - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda J. Walker" To: Cc: ; Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Napster downloading SJC > If only it were as simple as that... > > The reason why it isn't is because Napster does not host the music. They are not > a broadcaster. > > Secondly, if they didn't have a leg to stand on there would not have been a stay. > The fact is that they have more than one legally viable option to defend their > position. > > As far as royalities are concerned, I think Napster is in a similar position to > MP3.com's. Even if they had tried to get licenses from the music companies, it > would not have happened. Not one of the major music comglomerates would have > granted a worldwide blanket license because they have been and still are digging > their feet in, thinking that they can be the ones to give the consumers what they > want. In fact I had a recent conversation with Michael Robertson where we > discussed this and his attempts to try to get the Big Five (soon to be Four) to > play ball prior to launching My.MP3.com. > > In any event, I don't think this court case will really be about copyright and > infringing on it. It will hinge on the value of peer to peer computing as the > killer app on the internet. Neither the courts or the government will be in a > hurry to squelch the development of that or to shut down what is now said to be a > 20 million user consumer base. And ultimately the viability of copyright laws as > they now exist will have to be challenged. Clearly they do not lend themselves > well to what our world is becoming. If the vision of ubiquity plays out, then > everything will be everywhere all the time and you'll access it and not own your > own copy. Copying will become irrelevant. > > Finally, if you have gotten or shared a single bit of music, video or interview > from the tape trees or any other source, (and I don't know if you have or not) > then you really can't cast stones at Napster or it's users. > > Just my $.02, > Brenda > > BTW - Technically, it is not stealing, it's infringing. Copyright does not give > you ownership of property and theft applies to property. Copyright gives you the > right for a certain period of time to control what happens to the material. That > leads to what will hopefully be tested with this case - is the consumer infringing > or does this fall under the fair use doctrine? The answer to that question will > have quite an effect on all of us. > > IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > > RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: > > >>Hey Jmdler's > > Napster's still up until the mid-September, so > > >>download, download..... to > > your hearts content. ... You copy movies on your VCR's, don't you? Same > > difference. Case Closed! > > > > In a message dated 7/30/00 4:47:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FredNow@aol.com > > regretfully writes: > > > > << The case is not closed ... if you want to do right by the artists you > > profess > > to admire, you should buy the CD (and if there's a CD worth buying it's > > surely Herbie Hancock's "Gershwin's World"). > > > > ... How in the world is that cool? It's not ... it's called stealing. > > > > -Fred Simon > > >> > > Thank you, Fred. > > I am continually shocked that people think an operation like Napster is not > > obviously and patently (pun intended) illegal. > > And I am further amazed that people who realize Napster will not have a leg > > to stand on in its court case would rush to harvest Napster's illegal fruits > > before it is put out of business or forced to pay its fair share in royalties. > > The television station that broadcasts the movie that you copy for personal > > use so that you or your immediate family or guests can enjoy it at your > > convenience in your home pays royalties for the right to broadcast it. > > At the very least, people who make a piece of music available for > > downloading by others on the Internet should be paying the same kind of > > royalty. > > THAT is the appropriate analogy, NOT "it's free to copy movies on your VCR > > so it should be free to download songs from Napster or other shady > > operations." > > > > Paul I > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:15:12 -0500 From: "Van Metre, Gordon" Subject: A couple more Joni moments I mentioned this in my first post, but my first exposure to Blue was when I lived in Europe for most of 1986. We had already been there for a couple months, horribly music deprived. As it was we had taken an entire steamer trunk full of stuff, including copies of all my wife's films, so space was at a premium, and most of our collection at that time was on vinyl, and with little chance of access to a turntable, it seemed ridiculous to try taking music along. So we wrote home to all our friends saying, "Send music! Send music!" Well, my wife's best friend sent a cassette which she dubbed that had "Blue" on side one, with a segue to some of George Winston's "October", with King Crimson's "Beat" on side 2. One of the most perfect parts was that she had recorded it on an old French lesson tape and managed to keep the tail end of the lesson's monologue, which was about about the importance of vacation in French society and the French psyche. (I've now listened to it so many times I could probably transcribe it verbatim, but I'll spare all you non-Francophones the torture.) The beauty of the tape is that both Blue and Beat (in addition to being 4-letter words that start with B) are about being American expatriates in Europe. We went to a Grecian Isle with Carey, sat in a park in Paris France, reading the news and they wouldn't give peace a chance, went to a party down a red dirt road, met a man who did the goat dance very well, and saw a fallin' star burn up. Then we were wheels, moving wheels, and used odd shaped keys which led to new soap and envelopes. Those songs are like tatoos! The soundtrack of my life is full of Joni quotes.... Gordon in Kent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:28:08 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: Case Wide Open (NJC) Fred Wrote: > The case is not closed ... if you want to do right by the artists you > profess to admire, you should buy the CD > I agree with Fred for the most part. I am not some high priestess of morality (although I have been a high priestess - very). But I believe that the artist should have control and benefit from the fruits of their own mind before some MF Dot Com yuppie company! But how do I really feel about this. I recall running an open mike in a little artsy bar here in Chicago and ASCAP calling to try to get us to pay just for singing songs at that function. A bar that pulled in less than $3000 per week, need not worry about singing a song and paying for it. I am a woman of some reason and exception. I also believe most folks here and those at home (that I have argued with), for the most part buy the music they download eventually. But NOT everyone does and that is why the law must be. Not only that, some do run mass quantity bootlegs and are music pirates. So again while ALL downloading takes away financially from the artist, it is the ability of someone not even remotely connected to its inception, profiting from it that really sucks. How many other industries would put up with any minuscule loss of profits by independents. Funny how software pirating is so looked down upon by the computer industry yet ... they support this sort of thing within their domain. I do not see a problem with someone creating a tape or mix as a gift for a friend. I am not that uptight but I think the artists are losing out if we allow it to continue on such a massive scale. Peace Susan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:32:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Ambition & sincerityNJC Sorry, but I've just got to jump in on this one a little bit. I can personally assure you, our ambitions are utterly, totally and thoroughly sincere. We really *DO* want to make obscene mountains of money, with which we can buy mistresses half our age, surgeries to keep us looking a third of our age, prescription medicines to keep us acting a fifth of our age ... and if, in pursuit of these lofty goals, we happen to write a hit single saying something roughly like "if I die with the most toys I win" -- you might not think it enlightening, but it'll be sincere. ;-D Don Rowe THISISAJOKETHISISAJOKETHISISAJOKETHISISAJOKE!!! ===== "Closer Now" is now available at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:22:04 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Napster downloading SJC Oops sorry for the premature send on the last one - Brenda wrote: > The reason why it isn't is because Napster does not host >the music. They are not a broadcaster. That's correct. The issue here is whether their program facilitates copyright infringement, which is still currently against the law. > Secondly, if they didn't have a leg to stand on there would >not have been a stay The fact is that they have more than >one legally viable option to defend their position. Most defendants have some kind of legally viable defense but the courts in the U.S. traditionally (and ideally) base their decisions on what is best for the good of all, based upon the law. Essentially, it seems to me that in this case, the rights of the copyright owners must be weighed against the rights of Napster, Inc. > And ultimately the viability of copyright laws as > they now exist will have to be challenged. And this case seems to me to be ripe for setting new precedents. But it is difficult for me to imagine that several decades of intellectual property law could be completely overturned. > Clearly they do not lend themselves well to what our world is >becoming. If the vision of ubiquity plays out, then everything >will be everywhere all the time and you'll access it and not >own your own copy. Copying will become irrelevant. The law may well have to change to accomodate the new technology and ways of distributing music. But I cannot see that the copyright owners rights will be declared void. > Finally, if you have gotten or shared a single bit of music, video or interview from the tape trees or any other source, (and >I don't know if you have or not) then you really can't cast >stones at Napster or it's users. I think one can make a distinction between probably less than 100 people trading mostly live concerts for no profit and a commercial enterprise like Napster with its' consumer base of 20 million people. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:34:46 -0400 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: SJC - '70s Male Singer/Songwriters Harry Chapin Greatest Stories Live is one of my all time favorite albums! My family never lets me forget about how when I was 4...yes 4...I would take out my Harry Chapin record and play it and play it and dance and sometimes just sit and listen. He is a great songwriter. Of course I like most of the other artists mentioned and they are all talented too. But Harry was a very passionate man...for his causes and his songs and that always struck me. I don't think it's so much putting 'female' in front of the title singer/songwriter (which is a narrow classification in itself) as much as it is certain expectations that come along with it that can become hindering or annoying. Thanks for reminding me about one of my fav albums! Take care Nikki "Ever since I was a baby girl the one thing I wanted most in this world was to keep my love alive" ~ Heart > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > Murphycopy@aol.com > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 3:57 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: SJC - '70s Male Singer/Songwriters > > > CDNOW has a Buyer's Guide called '70s Male Singer/Songwriters on > their site > right now. The following is their list along with albums CDNOW picked to > review: > > James Taylor, Sweet Baby James > Jackson Browne, The Pretender > Paul Simon, Paul Simon > Warren Zevon, I'll Sleep When I'm Dead > Randy Newman, Sail Away > Harry Chapin, Greatest Stories Live > Jim Croce, Photographs and Memories > John Denver, Greatest Hits > Billy Joel, The Stranger > Elton John, Honky Chateau > Cat Stevens, Classics > John Lennon, Plastic Ono Band > Harry Nilsson, Nilsson Schmilsson > John Prine, John Prine > Tom Waits, Small Change > Neil Young, Harvest > Bob Dylan, Blood on the Tracks > Gordon Lightfoot, Gord's Gold > Loudon Wainwright III, Live One > Al Stewart, Greatest Hits > > Bruce Springstein, Stevie Wonder and Jagger/Richard were also writing and > performing during this period, but I guess CDNOW's list is more about the > acoustic, sound-hole-on-your-knee kind of guys. > > Although several of these men died young and thus had shorter > careers than > Joni has had, and one, Cat Stevens, left show business, Joni is right up > there with the best. She's number one on my list of singer/songwriters as > anyone who knows me will tell you. Yet I think it's odd that she's always > referred to in the media as "one of the best FEMALE > singer/songwriters of her > generation." I can understand someone being called the best female tennis > player or marathoner or figure skater, but it always strikes me as sexist > when gender is used to define women in the arts. It just seems like the > media's way of subtly creating a subclass (female) of people within a > category. I wonder if it bugs Joni and other women in the arts as > much as it > bugs me. > > Discovering my pissed-off inner feminist, > > --Bob > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:02:06 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Napster downloading SJC > > Most defendants have some kind of legally viable defense but the courts in > the U.S. traditionally (and ideally) base their decisions on what is best > for the good of all, based upon the law. Essentially, it seems to me that > in this case, the rights of the copyright owners must be weighed against the > rights of Napster, Inc. I think the question will not be about the rights of Napster. It will be about the rights of its users. If this is considered fair use than the rights of the people will definitely rule...see the Sony Betamax case. And, as I stated, you have to compare the upside of peer to peer computing against lost revenues for the music industry. I will respectfully disagree and venture to say that the future benefit of peer to peer computing outways the interest of copyright owners in this case. > > And ultimately the viability of copyright laws as > > they now exist will have to be challenged. > > And this case seems to me to be ripe for setting new precedents. But it is > difficult for me to imagine that several decades of intellectual property > law could be completely overturned. I can imagine it. In the scheme of things copyright law is quite young. It is certainly preceded by individual rights as outlined in the Constitution. > > > Clearly they do not lend themselves well to what our world is >becoming. > If the vision of ubiquity plays out, then everything >will be everywhere all > the time and you'll access it and not >own your own copy. Copying will > become irrelevant. > > The law may well have to change to accomodate the new technology and ways of > distributing music. But I cannot see that the copyright owners rights will > be declared void. > I don't think that their rights will or should be voided. I do think that they will and should be changed. > I think one can make a distinction between probably less than 100 people > trading mostly live concerts for no profit and a commercial enterprise like > Napster with its' consumer base of 20 million people. Except that the people doing the trading aren't doing it commercially. (Neither is Napster yet because they still don't have a revenue model!) As a consumer, fair use for this list is no different from fair use for someone using Napster. If I exchange with you through the mail or through Napster, there is no difference. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:34:38 +0100 From: catman Subject: twilight zone NJC The phone rang and this voice just launched into conversation. I knew I knew the voice but couldn't think who this was. The accent was strong and northern, Geordie. Eventually I said'who is this' and my John(whom I have lived with 19 years) says 'it's me you fool'. why rae you speaking funny? I wanted to know. It turns out there had been a death in the family(93 yr old Aunt Maud) and he ahd been talking for several hours to family members about arrangements. Seems his 88 mam, her 90 yr old sis in a wheelchair, and his uncle, 88 with 15 yrs of empthasemia(sp?) all wanted to come down for the funeral and stay with John! Well of course they can't. they don't know about me for one thing, and there is no room and they think he lives in London and know nothing about the house in the country.|(John says if he told them that they'd all come down for bloody holidays!) The point is I had never heard John speak anything other than his almost BBC accent. He was sent to public school(here that means fee paying private)and had electrocution lessons so he spoke properly. This was a surprise to me as I thought the north was just for working class people who all worked down the pits, ate pork pies, and said 'by gum' a lot!!! Just think after all these years I find rather than marrying benath me, I married above me! I always did know how to land on my feet. - -- Why don't sheep shrink when it rains? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:50:53 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Napster downloading SJC > As a consumer, > fair use for this list is no different from fair use for someone using Napster. > If I exchange with you through the mail or through Napster, there is no > difference. > > This is the way it works: say I have mp3's on my hard disk and am logged onto Napster. Anyone else logged onto Napster can 'see' my mp3's and may want them so they download them from my pc to their pc. I couild email them to anyone who asks(as I have). The only difference with napster is that i do not know who is downloading them nor do I have clue who i dowloaded the Carly song I wanted from. However, I have soince emailed that mp3 to someone I do know. When logged onto Napster you put a search in, say Joni Mitchell and it will list alll the joni songs people have on their pc's. You click on the one you want and download it. Of course there is this problem:it could take a good 20 minutes to do this dowload or more and the person whose PC you are downloading from could easily go off line and that is you bugggered!!! Now having explained that, i fail to see this as any different to all the trading that goes on between jmdl-ers. It seems to be a case of 'don't do as i do but do as i say' and that doesn't go down well. No matter which way you look at it what we do is no different-it is all an infringement. So unless you have never copied anything for other than persoanl use, you really can't condemn the people who use Napster. I don't think the law makes any distiction bewteen what is or not available. The fact that a live performance was not recorded by the artists record company does not make it all right for us to sneak in recording equipment and record it and then offer it around, even if it is offered for free. It is still doing what has been prohibited. I think it arrogant to excuse what we do but condemn what 'they' do. Amazing how easily we see 'they' as different from us and bad as well!(but then that come naturally to humans-they or them are different and therefore bad) I have copied stuff for myself and for people here. I will continue to do so. What I won't do is condemn people for doing precisely what i do. - -- Why don't sheep shrink when it rains? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:53:11 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Napster downloading njc "Brenda J. Walker" wrote: > If only it were as simple as that... > > The reason why it isn't is because Napster does not host the music. They are not > a broadcaster. Functionally, if not technically, they are. Millions of people can access one persons $15 CD. If this doesn't bother you, I would venture to say you do not hold any copyrights. > > As far as royalities are concerned, I think Napster is in a similar position to > MP3.com's. Even if they had tried to get licenses from the music companies, it > would not have happened. Not one of the major music comglomerates would have > granted a worldwide blanket license because In fact the majors have recently worked out a licencing agreement with MP3.com. RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:57:44 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Just Asking, NJC Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > > What about The Winterland in San Francisco? It's in the movie "The Last > Waltz" but has it been demolished? The cover to Grace Slick's 80's album "Welcome to the Wrecking Ball" shows Winterland being demolished. Winterland was also the venue in the Grateful Dead movie. The last shows there, I think. > > > If I sit in the middle of a concert hall, listening to a rock concert on the > PA system, am I usually listening to stereo, or dual mono? Concert systems are stereo, but I think radical separation is kept to a minimum for obvious reasons. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:11:05 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Napster, case closed and all that other intellectual property c Karma wrote: > Before RMJ and RR get down all over the Napster thing, I'll throw my peeve > in now toward the record companies for: > 1.Overcharging their customers for the past 10 years for CDs (since CDs > became the predominant media for recorded music, there's no godly reason why > they should have stayed so expensive), and > 2. Being asleep at the switch for electronic media transfers via the > internet. > You reap what you sow. And 3. The record companies have been screwing the artists from their inception to the present day. Roger McGuinn recently told the Senate committee that despite the millions of Byrds albums sold, he has never made a penny on [artist] royalties. (The officials' reply: 'that's what I keep hearing, over and over'). TLC declared bankruptcy. An excellent overview of this situation is contained in the book "Star Making Machinery", also a more artist oriented book by Kashif called "Everything You'd Better Know About the Record Industry". So, while it's tempting to take the view that Napster is giving the record companies what they deserve, once again the artists are losing out, too. Side note: a recording artist recieves two types of royalties from a record, one as a performer on the record, which is held until the cost of the record is recouped, and another as a songwriter, which cannot legally be withheld. Since they hardly ever see the performer money, the copyright money is very important. That's the money that keeps a roof over Joni's head. RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:22:16 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Napster's still up and downloading njc "Lori R. Fye" wrote: > Sorry, but if you rent a video tape and don't fast > forward through the beginning, you'll almost always > see the FBI warning that tells you not to duplicate > it. It doesn't matter that you paid to rent it; the > idea is for you to pay to rent it again, or buy it if > you enjoy watching it very often. Despite the FBI warning, it was decided some time ago that copying a movie or recording FOR YOUR OWN USE is not a violation. > Wanting to understand all the hoopla, a few weeks ago > I downloaded Napster, installed it, and downloaded one > song. Call me impatient, or even behind the tech > curve with my 450 MHz processor, but it took TOO long! > Who has the time to download a bunch of songs? Then > -- and maybe I did something wrong but -- the file was > 4 MB in size. Who wants to use their storage space to > store a ton of these downloads? Alot of the Napster action has been at college campuses were all the dorm rooms are wired to high speed ISDN lines that can download a thousand times faster than your connection. Someone did a study-sorry I don't have it at hand-showing a measureable decrease in sales at record stores near college campuses since Napster has become popular. > > > I fail to see where the record companies and/or > artists are really losing a whole lot of money due to > Napster, when it seems obvious that most folks are > using it only to sample. If they like what they hear, > they'll buy the CD. If it's college kids that are > doing most of the heavy-duty downloading, that's fine > with me -- they usually don't have much extra money > anyway. Of course it's the college kids' money the > poor record companies are after, isn't it? > > If it's not Napster, it'll be something else, soon and > probably more sophisticated. Information, including > music, is going to be shared freely, whether certain > folks like it or not. Music is not just information, it is work and expense, it is someone's livelihood. The reason we are here is because Joni was able to turn her talent into a sustainable carreer. Whatever your livelihood is, would you be okay with your work being given away for nothing if the technology permitted it tomorrow? RR ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #425 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?