From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #424 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Monday, July 31 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 424 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: "For The Roses", circa 1972 [catman ] NJC Re: Napster, case closed and all that other intellectual property [ca] another thought re: napster (njc) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Just Asking, NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: another thought re: napster (njc) [catman ] Re: Free goodies (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Thank you! - NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: "For The Roses", circa 1972 ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Covers Train Keeps A Rollin' - NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Other voices njc [Jeff Clark ] Re: NJC Re: Napster, case closed and all that other intellectual property [catman ] RE: Lauranyro.net (NJC) ["Peg Eves" ] Re: Saving vinyl, NJC, Audiophile's Corner [Catherine McKay ] Re: memorable moments [Catherine McKay ] Re: DJRD - it just talked to me! [Catherine McKay ] Joni and the Enneagram ["M & C Urbanski" ] RE: excellent women (AND men)NJC ["Peg Eves" ] RE: Woodstock/flowersNJC ["Peg Eves" ] Miles of Aisles Questions ["Eric Wilcox" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #422, youth today [B Merrill ] Re: comments on last digest SJC, ambition & sincerity [B Merrill ] Napster (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: NJC Re: Napster, case closed and all that other intellectual property ["Joni Fan" Subject: Re: "For The Roses", circa 1972 i read this to mean that when a horse has finished it's useful life as far as winning races, it is got rid of. Same as they do with racing greyhounds. It seems to me she was making a comment about this rather than saying she doesn't like winners. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:25:51 +0100 From: catman Subject: NJC Re: Napster, case closed and all that other intellectual property c Karma wrote: > Before RMJ and RR get down all over the Napster thing, I'll throw my peeve > in now toward the record companies for: > 1.Overcharging their customers for the past 10 years for CDs (since CDs > became the predominant media for recorded music, there's no godly reason why > they should have stayed so expensive), and I don't know which country you are in. Cd's here in the UK are very expensive in comparison to costs in US and Canada. A new relese cd here is likely to cost between $24-30. > > One of them is the crux of Henley and Crow's Artists Coalition. Sting > appealed this week to an international body in Geneva to claim the internet > address sting.com. He was late to the game and someone got there first. He > can appeal to a court in the US, but as much as I admire Sting I'd hate to > see him win simply on the grounds that he has sharper lawyers. Sting just happens to the the name of a Lhasa Apso Kennel in Sweden and has existed since before Sting the pop singer. It is a registered name in Sweden. Maybe they have better rights to sting.com! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 04:15:57 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: another thought re: napster (njc) Maybe Napster cuts into artists' royalties, or maybe it increases demand (and theoretically, royalties), we may never know, but there is one thing we can be damn sure of ... Mr. Napster intends to become rich as hell from it, no less rich than the traditional record biz conglomerates. And doing so without the permission of the people who created the works that will ultimately help line Mr. Napster's pockets ... no matter how you slice it, that ain't right. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:09:15 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Just Asking, NJC Jim L. asked: > What does LA's Troubadour look like on the inside? With all due respect and much love for this venerable L.A. insitution and with apologies to my fellow L.A. jmdlers....but there is no other way to put it.....it's a PIT!! > Is it still open? Yes, thank God. The original owner, Doug Weston, passed away a year or so ago, and there was sudden fear that maybe someone would bulldoze it or turn it into the latest chi chi restaurant or something, but it is enduring just as always and nothing has been changed so far. Pit or not, it would be a devastating to many in L.A. if it ever closes or turns into something other than it's always been. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:36:57 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) I was wondering how Napster make money? The program is free. This is not a facetious question. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:24:52 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) Fred wrote: > Mr. Napster intends to become rich as hell from it, no > less rich than the traditional record biz conglomerates. And >doing so without the permission of the people who created >the works that will ultimately help line Mr. Napster's >pockets ... no matter how you slice it, that ain't right. The whole Napster thing makes me shudder, it's so not right. I've read that some artists like it - usually the ones who are without a record contract and/or who don't sell a lot of product anyway. They feel it gives them better exposure than they would have otherwise. I can see if some artists want to use it - let them make an agreement with Napster to do so. But as for the other artists who are being exploited without their permission - EESCH!!! The mind boggles. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:39:22 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Free goodies (NJC) > Free Mosquito Patch > Click on SPECIAL TV OFFER > http://www.therapatch.com/ > Kakki and some others (Wally K?) may want to take > this along to the next Jonifest!! (he! he!) Bless you, Laura!! ;-) I'll definitely be checking this one out. I also just learned about another possible defensive weapon - something that looks like a keychain that you can hook on a belt loop that emits a high frequency sound like a male mosquito. The females, who are the biters, apparently don't like the droning of the males and this sound chases them away. I am not kidding! Believe me, this is a serious subject for some of us! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:54:05 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Thank you! - NJC A huge, gigantic, smoochy hug to everyone who wished me a happy birthday last week - I've never had so many Happy Birthday's before. So many it would take me all night to answer them all individually! Had a reasonable day - took the day (and the following two) off work, went to a free wine-tasting in the evening, then went up north to visit my mother, who took me out to dinner, and gave me a great t-shirt from her recent visit to New Orleans. I'd rather she had taken me with her, but I guess a t-shirt's not bad! 34 isn't so bad after all! Now I'm on the big health kick - just spent a ridiculous amount of money in a local health food store (organic meat, veges, etc.) and I'm walking to work tomorrow. Let's see how long it lasts! Hell NP: Cotton Avenue _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:13:27 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: "For The Roses", circa 1972 Jim wrote: >Why is Joni talking about shooting a winner? Is she just being mean? >Doesn't everyone love a winner, as the expression goes? I would assume she's talking about the day when the horse stops winning, and gets turned into pet food. Making the comparison between what happens to a race-horse eventually, and to a new, hot young musical star. Eventually they stop being the flavour of the month, and start boring people in dark cafes? Either that, or people start saying things like "Oh, Joni Mitchell? She's that folk singer who lost her voice from smoking, isn't she?" Hell - not bitter and twisted on her 3rd day without a cigarette (except for one tiny little lapse this morning, when I had a combination of Mondayitis/road rage/rainy-day-blues all at once and couldn't help myself. And it wasn't my fault because I was giving a friend a lift to work on the first day of his new job and he was nervous and chain-smoking in the car). PS - I'll admit it now - the non-smoking won't/can't last! _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:19:38 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Covers Train Keeps A Rollin' - NJC Bob wrote: >Well, you're right Colin...technically I suppose it's illegal as hell to >compile all this cover stuff, although I think it's a matter of personal >ethics. Obviously, as we've seen, people see black, white and gray on the >issue. I think intent is a big part of it, and like I said, my fear is NOT >folks like you and me and Rose, hell the record companies love us, we spend a >disproportionate amount of our disposable income on music! >Of course, if the record companies had kept on with vinyl, they wouldn't be >having this problem! ;~) I really don't have much of a problem with the covers project. Sure, at the start, people were sending stuff they already had on vinyl, tape, CD (and presumably paid for) to Bob. But as the project has progressed, people have started actually going out and buying the albums in order to obtain one song. William Shatner's and Leonard Nimoy's musical agents probably rang them immediately to shout down the phone, "Someone's just bought a copy of your album! That doubles our sales!" Seriously (and apologies to Bill and Leo) maybe the covers and contributions project has/will result in increased sales for a few artists, as listers hear a new voice, and get curious enough to buy the whole album? Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:31:40 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Napster's still up and downloading njc Lori wrote: >How is using Napster very different from the JMDL's >own passionate hobby of taping Joni's performances and >passing them around? Sure, you paid to go to the >show, and no one is making money from the tapes, but >your ticket no doubt said very clearly "NO RECORDING >EQUIPMENT." I agree with you on the points you've made, but I'd like to add something that I don't think anyone's mentioned this time round (and we've had these discussions before) but I'll repeat it again. I know of at least one artist (David Crosby) who has no problem with tape trees, and the kind of trading that goes on in lists like this one. After all, they're happening right in front of him on the Lee Shore (CSN list). He always states that "tapes" are no problem, since the quality decreases with every copy made. He has more of a problem with CD, since there is negligible depreciation in quality from copy to copy, but if it's non-commercial material being distributed, like a live show, that won't be distributed commercially, then no problem. It's sharing the music, and maybe it will reach a few people who'll like it enough to go and buy an album. And personally (with no disrespect to the people recording the music) I'd rather have a professionally mastered live album than one where the microphone has been in someone's hat! His big problem with Napster (and others like them) is the same point that Fred has made. If someone is downloading an entire album's worth of material, and burning a CD, then that is taking money directly out of the artists pocket. One song here and there (as Lori pointed out), no problem - again, maybe it'll prompt people to go buy the album. It is a black, white and grey area, and I think a lot of the problem is the speed at which the Internet came about. In the space of only a couple of years, we've suddenly got all these companies, and no laws governing their use. If it had taken 10 or 20 years, I'm sure there would be strict rules and regulations, and companies like Napster would have to register, get a (minimal) fee from the users, and pay a fee to the record companies. But the technology just got ahead of us! Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:03:57 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Lauranyro.net (NJC) No, there was a site lauranyro.net Perhaps maybe they're only experiencing technical difficulties. This happened once on JM.com. I informed Jim and then they started working on it and got her back up. The problem being, I don't know who to contact here. This was a beautiful site dedicated to this artist. I loved the artwork, her rising up out of the water with a flower in her hair at the home page. I hope it's not gone. That would be a real crying shame. Rose (in NJ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:48:30 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: NJC Re: Napster, case closed and all that other intellectual property catman wrote: >I don't know which country you are in. Cd's here in the UK are very >expensive in >comparison to costs in US and Canada. >A new relese cd here is likely to cost between $24-30. I know. When I traveled back and forth between Boston and London, I had a list of CDs for friends to pick up for my return trip to London. Friends that would come visit me in the States, and they would bring a extra bag just to bring CDs back . . . well, and few other things. catman wrote: >Sting just happens to the the name of a Lhasa Apso Kennel in Sweden and has >existed since before Sting the pop singer. It is a registered name in >Sweden. >Maybe they have better rights to sting.com! I looked at sting.com site last night and I didn't see anything that had to do with a kennel. It is owned by a "games" person that has a nickname of Stingray, but people forgot the ray part and instead call him Sting. I have mixed feelings about it. But if he bought the domain name before THE Sting, then he is due to use www.sting.com. I then looked at the www.juliaroberts.com page (which was referenced on sting.com site) and it is an awful roasting of Julia. How would we feel if someone was doing that to Joni? Yes, we are lucky Wally bought the domain! So I have mixed feelings. Companies and people purchase and "own" the rights to their names/logos, etc. which covers ALL public uses of it. I think Network Solutions should not sell domain names that has copyright ownership. I'm not expert in this, it just seems like mistakes were made early on that the domain folks are having to deal with now. The worst case I have heard was on American TV, about a cartoon called "Archie" telling a couple with a new baby, with the name of Veronica, to "ceast and disist" using their www.veronica.com web site to show baby pictures. One of the cartoon characters in the "Archie" cartoon has the name of Veronica and the company OWNS the rights to the name "Veronica" . . . go figure. Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:52:56 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) Like so many "free" services, they make bucks with the advertising on the web site. I don't personally know about Napster, but I would bet bucks that is the same. >From: catman >Reply-To: catman >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:36:57 +0100 > >I was wondering how Napster make money? The program is free. This is not a >facetious question. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:55:30 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: Free goodies (NJC) Kakki, You want to buy mine!? I go hiking often and used it. Mosquitoes were swarming and biting me . . . they were even sitting on the dang thing! Loree >From: "Kakki" >Reply-To: "Kakki" >To: , >Subject: Re: Free goodies (NJC) >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:39:22 -0700 > > > Free Mosquito Patch > > Click on SPECIAL TV OFFER > > http://www.therapatch.com/ > > Kakki and some others (Wally K?) may want to take > > this along to the next Jonifest!! (he! he!) > >Bless you, Laura!! ;-) I'll definitely be checking this one out. I also >just learned about another possible defensive weapon - something that looks >like a keychain that you can hook on a belt loop that emits a high >frequency >sound like a male mosquito. The females, who are the biters, apparently >don't like the droning of the males and this sound chases them away. I am >not kidding! Believe me, this is a serious subject for some of us! ;-) > >Kakki > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 00 09:11:01 EDT From: Jeff Clark Subject: Re: Other voices njc I was knocked out when I first heard Iris DeMent. "My Life" is one of the most unique, beautiful, moving albums I have *ever* heard. I would say her songwriting at best is very competent, but her whole persona and delivery put it over the top. Everyone I forced:-) to listen to that album thought it was special. She writes about the most simple things in everyday life with wisdom and innocence (one of the "essences" of life someone famous once said.;-) PS: I couldn't stand it in interviews with JM where interviewers were constantly asking her "Have you heard Sheryl Crow? Sarah MacLaughlin? Alainis Morisette (sp?) Not that these people aren't ok, but they never ask her about the real interesting artists. For a long time if there was 1 CD I would have given to Joni, it would have been "My Life". Jeff <> ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:21:27 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC Re: Napster, case closed and all that other intellectual property Joni Fan wrote: > catman wrote: > >I don't know which country you are in. Cd's here in the UK are very > >expensive in > >comparison to costs in US and Canada. > >A new relese cd here is likely to cost between $24-30. > > I know. When I traveled back and forth between Boston and London, I had a > list of CDs for friends to pick up for my return trip to London. Friends > that would come visit me in the States, and they would bring a extra bag > just to bring CDs back . . . well, and few other things. > > catman wrote: > >Sting just happens to the the name of a Lhasa Apso Kennel in Sweden and has > >existed since before Sting the pop singer. It is a registered name in > >Sweden. > >Maybe they have better rights to sting.com! > > I looked at sting.com site last night and I didn't see anything that had to > do with a kennel. I didn't think it would. I meant I think that Sting the singer doesn't have a monoploy on the name and that i think this kennel would have as much right to use Sting.com if they so chose to as they existed long before Sting the singer. For example-my registered kennel name(since 82) is TANTRA but I know there is already a Tantra.com. I don't think i haev grounds to complain about it. It would be rather ,like me trying to register colin.com. Perhaps I have missed your point. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:23:05 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) When i have used Napster, it is only a program-no website to view at all. All you do is type in the name of a singer and it then lists those songs on people's pc's who are online at the time. Joni Fan wrote: > Like so many "free" services, they make bucks with the advertising on the > web site. I don't personally know about Napster, but I would bet bucks that > is the same. > > >From: catman > >Reply-To: catman > >To: joni@smoe.org > >Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) > >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:36:57 +0100 > > > >I was wondering how Napster make money? The program is free. This is not a > >facetious question. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - -- Why don't sheep shrink when it rains? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:36:27 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Other voices njc Jeff, You got that straight. Iris Dement is extraordinary. She's gonna make it just fine! I'm always curious about what sounds Joni listens to and likes. I don't read magazines so I miss most of the interviews. I've read a few on JM.com of course.Can you guys tell me what she listens to? Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Jeff > Clark > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 9:11 AM > To: Joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Other voices njc > > > I was knocked out when I first heard Iris DeMent. "My Life" is > one of the most > unique, beautiful, moving albums I have *ever* heard. I would say her > songwriting at best is very competent, but her whole persona and > delivery put > it over the top. Everyone I forced:-) to listen to that album > thought it was > special. She writes about the most simple things in everyday life > with wisdom > and innocence (one of the "essences" of life someone famous once said.;-) > > PS: I couldn't stand it in interviews with JM where interviewers were > constantly asking her "Have you heard Sheryl Crow? Sarah > MacLaughlin? Alainis > Morisette (sp?) Not that these people aren't ok, but they never > ask her about > the real interesting artists. For a long time if there was 1 CD I > would have > given to Joni, it would have been "My Life". > > Jeff > > > < heard. It has > a distinctly old-time-country sound to it. She's also a very competent > songwriter. >> > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at > http://webmail.netscape.com. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:41:35 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Lauranyro.net (NJC) Yeah. Let's find out about the Laura site. I have a few pics from a show I produced for her in 1990 (I think)that someone might want. I loved being near Laura Nyro for one short night. She floated, she really did. Didn't say much. Just went out there and rocked the hall. Stood there at the keyboard. I fed her Middle Eastern, bottled water and lots of St. Pauli Girl for the band. We hear ya Laura, we hear ya!! Peg Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > RoseMJoy@aol.com > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 8:04 AM > To: joni@smoe.org; Musicmattj@aol.com > Cc: IVPAUL42@aol.com > Subject: Re: Lauranyro.net (NJC) > > > No, there was a site lauranyro.net Perhaps maybe they're only > experiencing > technical difficulties. This happened once on JM.com. I informed > Jim and then > they started working on it and got her back up. The problem > being, I don't > know who to contact here. This was a beautiful site dedicated to > this artist. > I loved the artwork, her rising up out of the water with a flower > in her hair > at the home page. I hope it's not gone. That would be a real > crying shame. > > Rose (in NJ) > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:10:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Saving vinyl, NJC, Audiophile's Corner - --- Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > ALL of it is the record player itself. Many, many > people believe that LP > sounds better than CD if cost is no object. This > month's Stereophile > magazine reviews the finest record player ever. > It's about $73,000 without > a stylus but still, you can get a nice sounding > turntable with stylus for > $600. > > Catherine (still in Toronto) asked: > Does anyone know if you can de-warp records? > > Short answer? No, you can't. > Thank you Jim!!! The turntable I have right now is really cheap. The whole stereo is cheap, but it was all I could afford at the time. Saving my pennies for a good turntable! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:16:10 EDT From: Cindy09876@aol.com Subject: Re: "excellent women" and unexpressive guys NJC Recently Bruce opined that "so much of the ambitious music by men that I've come upon does not have this crucial element of personal expression & sincere communication to it. The songs are more likely to end up as cynical, hermetic, ugly, overblown, &/or empty. The content falls away, and we are left with technical virtuosity. So the ambition comes across, essentially, as showing off." Again, I'd like to suggest that all those looking for truly interesting guitar work coupled with intensely personal (and beautifully deep) lyrical content coming out the mouth of a man give David Wilcox a listen. All of his work is truly amazing. I can't encourage you enough to give this man a chance to enter your heart as he has mine. Like Joni, I feel that he's almost a friend - his lyrics are so incredibly personal, you feel as though you've shared a private conversation and, more, that you've seen into his soul. Cindy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:35:11 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) the last time I looked there wasn't any advertising on the Napster web page. "Wonder what he's up to, wonder what he's doing." - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joni Fan" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 5:52 AM Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) > Like so many "free" services, they make bucks with the advertising on the > web site. I don't personally know about Napster, but I would bet bucks that > is the same. > > > > >From: catman > >Reply-To: catman > >To: joni@smoe.org > >Subject: Re: another thought re: napster (njc) > >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:36:57 +0100 > > > >I was wondering how Napster make money? The program is free. This is not a > >facetious question. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:41:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: memorable moments - --- zaide912@webtv.net wrote: > A memorable moment that continues.... > One winter day I was grocery shopping and I suddenly > became aware that > Come In From The Cold was playing!!! How did this > happen? Joni got on > the muzak tape in the grocery store!!! It was just > perfect and the > stranger part is that I continue to hear it in > different stores. > Friends have told me they hear it too, and we're not > merely projecting > our joni-love on to the stores audio system or > having some sort of > flashback. Has anyone else heard her in the grocery > store I have heard Joni surprisingly more often in grocery stores (and others that use Muzak) than I would ever have dreamed. I was sitting in McDonald's one day, staring into space, as I so often do, watching my son's fries get cold while he played video games (this particular McD's has Nintendo games that the kids can play which is the only reason Matthew prefers this particular McD's) when I heard Joni singing I-don't-remember-now-what-song (except that it wasn't one of her "greatest hits" which was even more surprising). Right after that, they played other songs by other female artists that I like (again, I don't remember who, or what songs, but no Mariah Carey in the lot!) I thought I was dreaming - I actually enjoyed that particular McD's experience! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:47:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: DJRD - it just talked to me! - --- "Takats, Angela" wrote: > Hey Listers > I bought a copy of DJRD the other day...what better > way to cheer myself up > after a relationship break-up than getting a new > joni CD. I'd heard lots > about it...but finally got the chance to listen to > it for the first > time.....JONI HEAVEN....how good is this album!! > Like you, I had missed this one when it came out. I only bought it about six months ago. I was swept away. It was, from the moment I heard it, my favourite, and continues to be. This could change of course, but right now, DJRD is my very favourite of all Joni's stuff. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:22:58 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Innocence Mission NJC Speaking of Innocence Mission: What is Joni's connection there? Something about Kneeling Elephant Records . . . anyone? I love them. Just saw them here at Marlboro College. Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > SCJoniGuy@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 5:13 PM > To: SMEBD@aol.com; chucke@tiac.net; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: NJC Eva Cassidy Woodstock Cover > > > << Needless to say, I > purchased the CD and sent a copy of Woodstock off to Bob. >> > > It IS indeed a beauty, and will be Voume 9, which isn't done yet > but so far > looks like this: > > Dave VanNater - Night Ride Home > Cilla Black - Both Sides Now > Tom Rush - Urge For Going (Live/1975) > Jill O'Hara - River > Eva Cassidy - Woodstock > Fred Hersch - My Old Man > Paul Desmond - Song To A Seagull > Annika Fehling - Goodbye Pork Pie Hat > Innocence Mission - Both Sides Now (Live/1995) > Bob Dylan - Big Yellow Taxi > Viola Wells - Both Sides Now > > I'll be making the tree announcement for Volumes 6/7/8 in a week > or two, so > hang in there, covers fans! > > Bob > > NP: Ani, "As Is" > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:46:36 -0400 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Joni and the Enneagram Hi everyone, This past year, while in school , I took a course called "Dating, Intimacy and Relationships". It was a Psych course. Our Professor introduced us to the Enneagram. It's a Middle Eastern tool used in looking into personality types. In the class we had to do a presentation and we could do a biography on someone as it pertained to this class. Of course I picked Joni. As I learned about the Enneagram, I learned that I was a "Romantic" (like duh!!), However, Joni fit the same traits. So that's what I focused my presentation on. Joni as the "Romantic". Here's a few ditties from one of the Enneagram books. Romantics are motivated by the need to experience their feelings and to be understood, to search for the meaning of life, and to avoid being ordinary. At their best Romantics are: warm, compassionate, introspective, expressive, creative and intuitive. At their worst they are: depressed, self-conscious, moody and self-absorbed. Joni?? In careers Romantics can inspire, influence, and persuade through the arts (music, fine art, dancing) and the written or spoken word (poetry, novels, journalism, teaching). Joni!!! There is much more , but you get the picture. In my presentation, I used clips from the Joni tribute. The part where Susan S. talked about Joni and at the end I showed Joni singing BSN. I read the Larry Kline piece from the BSN CD. After reading it I said "while we were taking this course Joni was exploring relationships too" (Just another one of those Joni coincidences of mine). Mine was the last presentation in the last class of the semester. After Joni sang BSN, my professor began to cry. She said "What a perfect way to end this class". Not only did I get an "A" but one of the YOUNG ladies in the class went out and bought a Joni CD!! If anyone would like to find out more about the Enneagram there is a website where you can test yourself to find out what personality type you are (I bet many of us are "Romantics!). www.EnneagramInstitute.com Have fun Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:36:36 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: excellent women (AND men)NJC Regarding this men/women comparison study: I hate to generalize AND I hope i didn't offend anyone with my "shell" comment about male performers. It ain't that simple. I'm just offering it up as part of my groping to pinpoint this nebulous energy that females seem to possess & emit. Fact is, I think there's something but I can't explain it. And don't care all that much. So I'm going to shut up now. Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of B > Merrill > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 7:25 AM > To: SCJoniGuy@aol.com > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: excellent women (AND men) > > > And I didn't say it very well... I didn't mean that there aren't > expressive > male singers. I was talking about the rare conjunction of ambition + > sincerity in the work of singer-songwriters. Maybe I'll try again later, > and try to explain what I mean by ambition. Since I have to get back to > work, this morn. > > thanks for your comment, > > Bruce > > > >Respectfully disagree with that particular statement...I'm not gonna > bother composing a list of male singers who sing in a complete emotional > manner...OK, a couple, Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Elvis Costello, Tom > Waits, Sam Cooke, Nat King Cole...anyway, I would wager to say that the > lists are about equal. > > > >Maybe I'm not really picking up on the gist of what you're trying to say. > > > >Bob > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:42:37 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Woodstock/flowersNJC Kate, I know they were dropping something out of the sky, I thought it was flowers . . . Or maybe we were in the same dream. Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Kate > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 4:11 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: joni moments > > > I was born a Jersey girl ( "I'm from New Jersey, I don't expect too much" > John Gorka). Went to Woodstock under the threat of running away when my > parents forbid it. I just knew it was going to be a lifetime event. Music > was my life & I spent many hours in my room day dreaming, playing guitar, > writing songs, & learning other people's songs. CSN & Joni wrote the > soundtrack to those years. > > When I heard the song Woodstock, I couldn't believe that she hadn't even > been there because she really captured the essence of the > experience. We had > to walk up a loooooooooong road, seems like it was miles, from > the place we > parked to the festival site, and met lots of folks walking or hanging out > along the way (I came upon a child of god, he was walking along the road). > After the rains, there were some helicopters flying over the crowd (I > dreamed I saw the bombers flying shotgun in the sky, turning into > butterflies across our nation) and I swear I saw them dropping flowers out > of the sky over the crowd. Or was it a dream? > > After Woodstock I went out to California to "get back to the garden" and > "join a rock & roll band". I lived for several years in a commune where we > grew all our food & had health food stores in town. We wrote & played our > original music & gave a lot of concerts. Over the years, I have > met many of > the people who wrote the songs I used to listen to in my youth & some of > them have even become good friends. Its just amazing to me how some of my > half forgotten dreams have come to fruition. Not that I haven't > been through > some real hard times in my life but I really believe that dreams can come > true. For several years I have had a card up on my refrigerator > that says, I > focus on what I love and thus draw it to me. Sure works for me. > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > www.cdbaby.com/katebennett > www.amazon.com > > "bringing the melancholy world of twilight > to life almost like magic…the album grows > more intriguing with repeated listening" > All Music Guide > > "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" > Indie-Music.com > ******************************************** > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:16:49 -0500 From: "Eric Wilcox" Subject: Miles of Aisles Questions WEll, just picked up MOA and I have a few questions. First, were Jericho and Love or Money ever released on subsequent albums? Further-- can anyone tell me how much was lost when this 2LP set was transferred to CD? I hear that most of the middle parts were cut out-- IE, Joni talking and such. There's a few spots on this disc where the editing is SLOPPY-- so I just wonder. thanks! eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:51:49 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #422, youth today HanknBG@aol.com wrote: >I was talking to a younger friend the other day, he's 19. Of course he said >he had never heard anything by Joni Mitchell... "who is she?" > >Rather then be disgusted, I pulled out 2 cd's "Court and Spark" and HOSL and >played a few tracks off each. . The next day he went out and bought HOSL and >hasn't stopped talking about her since. > >There is hope for the young people in this world. Or is there?? After playing Joni, Kate B, etc. for my two sons, ages 7 & 10, they brush it off and go back to Britney, Blink 182, the infernal Eminem, etc. "C'mon dad, we like you, but your music is nowhere...." I'm going to write to Dear Abby for advice. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:57:56 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: comments on last digest SJC, ambition & sincerity Hi Erin, Thanks for your comments. >First, Marilyn's story of how Joni's music coincided >with her own life experiences really struck me. I >thought it was a great post. Yes, I agree. Marilyn's riff on Joni and her life was especially delightful. Thank you Marilyn! >Second, Bruce wrote: >"my first encounter with aggressive HOLLOW virtuosity >was King Crimson's "In the Court of the Crimson King." >Remember that one? Hard to imagine a woman being >caught up in that kind of empty showing off." > >I would ask you to define hollow virtuosity. In this case, "hollow virtuosity" refered to the instrumental interlude within the title cut. It is virtuosic given how tight and rehearsed it is, but it is un-musical and does not integrate properly (I find) with the song itself. Hence it comes across (to me) as empty showing off. The alternative, which I would prefer, is a technical virtuosity which is consistent with the lyric quality of a song, which serves the expressive purpose of the song, rather than the other way around. "In the >Court of the Crimson King" is a brilliant album, and >if it is beauty you are seeking, you'd be hard pressed >to find a song more beautiful than "I Talk to the >Wind." I treasure the intricate song so much I save >it for "special" occasions so I will never tire of it. > >I absolutely disagree that the ability to write >emotional, sincere songs has ANYTHING to do with one's >gender. Women are no better at it than men, in my >opinion. (And I am a woman, incidentally.) My point was not that men do not write sincere songs or sing expressively. It was that they are less likely to integrate their ambition with their sincerity and expressivity. By ambition I meam, above all, a desire to compose songs with are unusual (in structure, arrangement, instrumentation, content, etc.) and which are highly arranged and technically competent. Let me put my point as a question: Are you aware of any songs/albums by a man which are as ambitious as Joni's Hissing, and also sincere and expressive? If so I would love to learn about them. (As I said, the most striking exception to my tentative generalization-- THAT I AM AWARE OF-- is the second Andy Pratt album, which is both ambitious and very sincere.) As I point of comparison: Van Dyke Park's first album, Song Cycle. This virtually unknown album is even more ambitious than Hissing, in the sophistication of its arrangements certainly, but is not (to me) equivalently sincere, expressive, or lyrical. Therefore it comes off more as a kind of showing off, closer to hollow virtuosity, althogh of a different variety than KC. (Let me add that nevertheless I enjoy this unique album, tho I've never come upon anyone else who claims to like it. And all the reviews of it that I know of have uniformly trashed it.) Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm sure we don't agree on this, but I would like to think that I am at least making myself understood. Bruce NP Prince's "Emancipation." A real "find" for me, the kind of r&b and soul that "they don't make any more" and a wonderful instance of a guy using the full resources of his extraordinary voice. Hightly recommended! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:29:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: the nature of music reviews (NJC) - --- Victor Johnson wrote: > I found a lame review of my cd in "Southeast > Performer Magazine" and while I > was disappointed on the surface, it is strangely > comforting because what > came across to me more than anything else is in this > review is that this > person just doesn't really understand what I am > doing and didn't quite know > what to make of it. I've been told there's no such thing as *bad* publicity, so the fact that your CD was reviewed means people are going to read about it and might buy your CD despite the neutral or negative review (especially if they believe that particular reviewer is a dork to begin with). And, you're not alone in having people not understand what you're doing and not knowing what to make of it - sounds like a particular artist that we all know and love! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:38:00 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: LA's Troubadour (NJC) Jim Lammadamma wrote: >What does LA's Troubadour look like on the inside? Is it still open? Yes, it's still open. I saw Gillian Welch there a couple of years ago. In the days when Joni played there, it had long tables, perpendicular to the stage. I seem to remember a two-drink minimum. There was an upstairs balcony, where the VIPs sat. Nowadays, the only seats are benches on the balcony, the floor is open a la typical rock club, and there is a large bar in the middle of it. The REAL Troubadour bar is in the front of the building, and still looks the same as ever to me. A quick look at my database revealed that I've seen the following artists there: Clayton, Merry Davis, Spencer Dillards, The Fanny Goodman, Steve Hicks, Dan & His Hot Licks Higgins, Dee Jo Mama Kolac, Bonnie Krisstofferson, Kris Lightfoot, Gordon Longbranch/Pennywhistle Mathews, Ian Miller, Roger Near, Holly Newman, Randy Ochs, Phil Pickett, Bobby "Boris" Reddy, Helen Riopelle, Jerry Seatrain Sebastian, John Sill, Judee Stevens, Cat Stew Waits, Tom Welch, Gillian & David Rawlings Whitcomb, Ian - -- ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:40:14 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Napster (NJC) Rose wrote: >Has anyone heard Joni sing "Summertime" with Herbie >Hancock. Yes, but I paid for my copy, and Hancock and the Gershwin estate rightly got their share of that money. - -- ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:41:01 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: NJC Re: Napster, case closed and all that other intellectual property >Perhaps I have missed your point. No, I missed your original point. I thought you were saying that the kennel folks were the ones behind sting.com. The difference on your example would be if the kennel purchased international rights, I guess. Of course, a kennel would not do that, but large companies and celebrities do. If the kennel or someone else named Colin purchased international rights before the domain name were purchased, then I imagine the kennel and you would be out of luck if you bought colin.com. This will be interesting for the courts to settle out. I'm certainly glad I'm not a judge in the copyright world right now!! Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:42:11 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: comments on last digest SJC, ambition & sincerity In a message dated 7/31/00 11:38:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, merrillb@crisny.org writes: << Let me put my point as a question: Are you aware of any songs/albums by a man which are as ambitious as Joni's Hissing, and also sincere and expressive? If so I would love to learn about them. >> Late for the Sky, which came out about the same time. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:45:13 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Miles of Aisles Questions In a message dated 7/31/00 11:41:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, edwilcox@students.wisc.edu writes: << First, were Jericho and Love or Money ever released on subsequent albums? >> Jericho is the third cut on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. Love or Money was not released on any other album. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:43:00 -0700 From: "Brenda J. Walker" Subject: Re: Napster downloading SJC If only it were as simple as that... The reason why it isn't is because Napster does not host the music. They are not a broadcaster. Secondly, if they didn't have a leg to stand on there would not have been a stay. The fact is that they have more than one legally viable option to defend their position. As far as royalities are concerned, I think Napster is in a similar position to MP3.com's. Even if they had tried to get licenses from the music companies, it would not have happened. Not one of the major music comglomerates would have granted a worldwide blanket license because they have been and still are digging their feet in, thinking that they can be the ones to give the consumers what they want. In fact I had a recent conversation with Michael Robertson where we discussed this and his attempts to try to get the Big Five (soon to be Four) to play ball prior to launching My.MP3.com. In any event, I don't think this court case will really be about copyright and infringing on it. It will hinge on the value of peer to peer computing as the killer app on the internet. Neither the courts or the government will be in a hurry to squelch the development of that or to shut down what is now said to be a 20 million user consumer base. And ultimately the viability of copyright laws as they now exist will have to be challenged. Clearly they do not lend themselves well to what our world is becoming. If the vision of ubiquity plays out, then everything will be everywhere all the time and you'll access it and not own your own copy. Copying will become irrelevant. Finally, if you have gotten or shared a single bit of music, video or interview from the tape trees or any other source, (and I don't know if you have or not) then you really can't cast stones at Napster or it's users. Just my $.02, Brenda BTW - Technically, it is not stealing, it's infringing. Copyright does not give you ownership of property and theft applies to property. Copyright gives you the right for a certain period of time to control what happens to the material. That leads to what will hopefully be tested with this case - is the consumer infringing or does this fall under the fair use doctrine? The answer to that question will have quite an effect on all of us. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > RoseMJoy@aol.com wrote: > >>Hey Jmdler's > Napster's still up until the mid-September, so > >>download, download..... to > your hearts content. ... You copy movies on your VCR's, don't you? Same > difference. Case Closed! > > In a message dated 7/30/00 4:47:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FredNow@aol.com > regretfully writes: > > << The case is not closed ... if you want to do right by the artists you > profess > to admire, you should buy the CD (and if there's a CD worth buying it's > surely Herbie Hancock's "Gershwin's World"). > > ... How in the world is that cool? It's not ... it's called stealing. > > -Fred Simon > >> > Thank you, Fred. > I am continually shocked that people think an operation like Napster is not > obviously and patently (pun intended) illegal. > And I am further amazed that people who realize Napster will not have a leg > to stand on in its court case would rush to harvest Napster's illegal fruits > before it is put out of business or forced to pay its fair share in royalties. > The television station that broadcasts the movie that you copy for personal > use so that you or your immediate family or guests can enjoy it at your > convenience in your home pays royalties for the right to broadcast it. > At the very least, people who make a piece of music available for > downloading by others on the Internet should be paying the same kind of > royalty. > THAT is the appropriate analogy, NOT "it's free to copy movies on your VCR > so it should be free to download songs from Napster or other shady > operations." > > Paul I ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #424 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?