From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #405 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Thursday, July 20 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 405 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Correcting Past Wrongs ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Number Two ["Kakki" ] Re: Number Two ["Mark or Travis" ] legit questions ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: gay recruits (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Number Two ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Number Two to Joni ["Michael Bird" ] Re: i've been gone NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Women Footballers NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Correcting Past Wrongs ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Which live album is better:MOI or S&L? [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Single Gender Marriage ["Mark or Travis" ] #2 artist ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Number Two ["Victor Johnson" ] JMDL artists ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: gay recruits (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Which live album is better:MOI or S&L? ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Which live album is better:MOI or S&L? ["Helen M. Adcock" ] RE: Women Footballers NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Number Two ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Number Two ["cassy" ] "Our House" Kid Heads Artists Against Piracy [Murphycopy@aol.com] Re: Which live album is better:MOI or S&L? - NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] catering service - NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] On the subject of getting the point... [Richard Rice Subject: Re: Correcting Past Wrongs ke the team is all that counts. > > P.S. I hate sports. They could ONLY have been > invented by macho men out to show off to women and > other men who's got a bigger dick (pardonnez-moi mon > anglais). For cripes sake, the damn ball (in North > American football) isn't even round!) I also wonder > about all that tackling stuff - I figure it's probably > just an excuse for guys to cop a feel off each other > and still be a *real man*. ;) LOL! Catherine if my point of view is balanced (which is highly questionable) then yours without doubt is always to the point & often highly amusing! You go, Catherine! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:28:24 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Number Two > My vote for Number Two: > > Undoubtedly - Laura Nyro!!! Me two, Gary - absoluto! No. 3 - Julia Fordham No. 4 - Jonatha Brooke (Jonatha has more genius and brilliance overall than Julia, but I'm partial to Julia) Kakki, going to see Jonatha with some of the local SoCal gang on Aug. 1st. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:43:22 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Number Two > > Good choice. I love Kate. > > > > Actually, my Number Two is Joni. Number One is Linda Ronstadt. She was the > > first to revive interest in the old standards (a bold move 15 years ago), > > if she was the first, it must have been more than 15 years ago as carly's Torch > came out in 81. > Torch was before any of Linda's Nelson Riddle recordings. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:31:38 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: legit questions Mark in Seattle: I would rather people ask legitimate questions than keep their misconceptions clutched tightly to their psyches, afraid to let go of them. If they ask, they can be informed. So let's inform, not bash. Very well put Mark. It is ignorance & fear that creates the horrors we have been reading about. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:55:52 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: gay recruits (NJC) Kerry wrote: >catman wrote: >>Not only that, but we put a great deal of effort into corrupting and >>recruiting minors. >AND, we get a toaster oven for every straight person we recruit. ;>) Someone's been watching my favourite comedienne's famous "coming out" episode with Laura Dern and Melissa Etheridge! Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:58:35 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Number Two Kerry wrote: >1. While we were enjoying our time in Saskatoon, Brian (a native >"Saskatooner") asked us who our #2 artist is, following of course, Joan at >#1. Ironically, I can't name one person, but was wondering if anyone else >would like to share their #2 artist. I have a long list of people, but no >one I can list as a definite. Too easy. Shona Laing - a NZ singer-songwriter that hardly anyone's ever heard of! Although I must say, I have sent a few listers a tape of Shona, and they've all been unanimous in their praise! If you get a chance, have a listen - I guarantee you won't be disappointed! And I'm STILL excited about having heard her at the Hero Festival in Auckland this last January (10 feet from centre-stage, and the only one singing along)! Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 23:06:16 -0500 From: "Michael Bird" Subject: Number Two to Joni There's a Canadian woman and a short guy from Queens who keep fighting for the number two spot below Joni: Jane Siberry and Paul Simon (the former especially for WHEN I WAS A BOY and MARIA, the latter especially for RHYTHM OF THE SAINTS). Nickel Chief ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:05:43 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: i've been gone NJC Alison wrote: >lighten things up, huh...? >my email server went down and i've missed the last two days. >did i miss anything good? Naaahhh. We've just been killing time till you got back. Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:10:57 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Women Footballers NJC Alison wrote: >how women would make much better footballers: what the hell?????? As an ex-rugby-playing woman, I can honestly say that women don't make better football/rugby players than men: (1) Too many of them cry when they get tackled hard. I keep saying - with apologies to Tom Hanks, if anyone gets the reference - "There's no crying in football!" (2) They are too scared to tackle hard in case they get hurt and cry (see Note 1) and make themselves look silly. Rugby isn't that bad. I mean in one season I only had a broken hand, concussion, and cracked ribs (twice) so how tough do we need to be? Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:23:16 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Correcting Past Wrongs Oh, Marcel! You've done it again! Your NFL post was hysterical. I am concerned that you will be singled out as the only conservative (that nasty "C" word) on the List. So, JMDLers, let's all join hands around the cyber campfire and welcome Marcel's abhorrent, err..... I mean courageous views to our Group. All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati Now Playing In My Head: "Koombyah" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:27:51 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Which live album is better:MOI or S&L? Which one is better,do you think? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:28:40 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Single Gender Marriage Since nobody else seems to have given this a good answer, I'll give it a go. > Uhhh... Please excuse my naive questions but here goes: > The stereotype that I'm familiar with is that many gays don't have life-long > relationships. Is this true? And if it's true, where does the enthusiasm > for gay marriage come from? That is exactly what you said, Jim, a stereotype. True there are gay people who are promiscuous and/or can't sustain a relationship for one reason or another. There are also plenty of straight people who are the same way. The truth of the matter is that there are a lot of gay people in long-term, committed relationships. You just don't hear about them as often as you do the others. > Next, I have never heard a straight couple say "We are getting married so > (s)he can have medical coverage." Yet this seems to be the central argument > in favor of gay marriage though. Is this true? What am I missing or > misunderstanding? I think people have been addressing this issue more in terms of social injustice than the more spiritual aspect of it. I would have married Edward and I would marry Travis simply because I love Travis & loved Edward. Edward & I were together for nine years, by the way, and death was the only thing that could ever have split us up. Travis & I are approaching 5 years and I told him at the start, you aren't moving in here unless it's for the long haul. I stood in the wedding party at my nephew's wedding thinking what a beautiful ritual this can be, standing up in front of family & friends & declaring your love & commitment to one another. Dressing up & having a big party. How nice! What fun! And if you have religious beliefs, how important to your spiritual health! The social issues are important. They cannot be downplayed. As other people have brought up, when your partner is hospitalized you want the right to be by their side. If you have the great misfortune to have the one you love leave this world before their time, it is also important that you are able to have some say in how they are laid to rest and that your rights as their next of kin are protected. It would also have been nice if my medical insurance would have covered some of Edward's medical expenses. Fortunately we had wills done and our house was joint tenancy with rights of survivorship. I was also extremely lucky to be on good terms with Edward's family. His mother, brother, sister, sister-in-law and myself all went to the mortuary to discuss the service. There was no conflict. There was no contesting of the will or of my right to have everything that had belonged to him. I am blessed. Travis & I visited all of Eddie's family on our trip last month & we were welcomed with open arms. However too many are not blessed in this way as others have already written. We should have the right to marry. It's the only decent thing to do, to grant us that right. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:27:44 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: #2 artist I love all the artists mentioned so far but mine is Shawn Colvin. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:17:56 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Re: Number Two >1. While we were enjoying our time in Saskatoon, Brian (a native >"Saskatooner") asked us who our #2 artist is, following of course, Joan at >#1. Ironically, I can't name one person, but was wondering if anyone else >would like to share their #2 artist. I have a long list of people, but no >one I can list as a definite. #1. Nick Drake and Joni Mitchell #2. Neil Young favorite three groups 1. Rush 2. Grateful Dead 3. Jethro Tull Victor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:37:47 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: JMDL artists What a great idea Don! I would love also donate $2 to the JMDL site from each CD sold to any JMDL members. Anyone who has already purchased from me, remind me & I will donate for previous purchases too. However, you must purchase the CD through my website (check & mail) or CDBaby (credit card & online) & don't forget to mention you are from JMDL. I will get something to Les soon for the artist page... I will be away from the computer for a few days so you may not hear from me until next week. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:08:24 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: gay recruits (NJC) > > >catman wrote: > >>Not only that, but we put a great deal of effort into corrupting and > >>recruiting minors. > > >AND, we get a toaster oven for every straight person we recruit. ;>) > > Someone's been watching my favourite comedienne's famous "coming out" > episode with Laura Dern and Melissa Etheridge! > > Hell First aired on *my birthday*, by the way! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:15:51 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Which live album is better:MOI or S&L? > > Which one is better,do you think? > Apples & oranges as far as I'm concerned. The first sums up Joni's output up to Court & Spark and is an excellent representation of that period. Some of her live performances on MOA are no less than stunning. The second encapsulates the 'jazz' period, HOSL through Mingus. Also a worthy representation. Certainly you couldn't ask for a better group of musicians. And who can argue with the material? But they are entirely different in musical style and as far as I'm concerned, it's a draw. Although I do have a special fondness for MOA. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:25:17 +0000 From: Kenny Grant Subject: Joni's muscianship (was Yvette in English) Hey David, THANKS for this post. While I appreciate lyrical analyses and enjoy reading posts of that nature - and sometimes posting my thoughts as well, as a non-muscian I really appreciate reading posts by those more musically inclined who can discuss things like "unexpected chords" and "deceptive cadences." There are so many Joni songs that affect/move me beyond the lyrics, or perhaps I should say "both lyrically and muscially," but I don't understand music well enough to discuss it in that sort of depth. Joni's musicianship is superlative, as is her fussiness/choice of musical collabortors. Lots of times, the lyrics alone just get to me (e.g. The Dawntreader, For Free, The Priest Song, River, Banquet, Court & Spark, Sades of Scarlet Conquering, HOSL, Song For Sharon, Borderline, TI, Sire of Sorrow), but her knack of complementing words and music is really the magic of her gift. Whether it's overdubbing - more prominent in her earlier work - bringing in the "right" musciians in the "right" places - Jaco, Metheny, Wayne Shorter, Mark Isham, etc., etc., or simply strumming a guitar solo (I'll always remember Dylans' words to her during the '98 tour - "those chords, how do you get those chords"), which I personally felt was inspired by Magdalene Laundries, jamming in certain areas (e.g. the brief musical interlude in Facelift that tends to bring tears to my eyes), her guitar opener on Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire, her "simple" version of Love Puts on a New Face with Brian Blade on Jay Leno several years ago, or the "stranger," funkier guitar on Wolf That Lives in Lindsay with Don Alias and wolf sound effects, the VG8 TTT solo, piano, dulcimer and singing on Blue, the orchestration of Judgement of the Moon & Stars and Paprika Plains, and putting words to and singing Goodbye Porkpie Hat - to name a few. God, the list goes on, but I'll stop now, as per my preface that I'm not "qualified" to discuss Joni's musicanship in any great depth, other than what hits home. Just wanted to say that I enjoy posts by muscian listers who are able to discuss the musical aspects in greater depth, and how they intertwine with lyrical content to form a masterpiece, using words undertandable to the non-musician/laymen. As for the lyrical content of Yvette, I agree with those who state that "little bit of instant bliss" is open to individual, subjective interpretation. I personally feel it can run the gamut from sex to drugs to art. Best, -Kenny np TI - Sire of Sorrow (and awaiting the day she performs this live, if ever) Bolvangar@aol.com wrote: > I thought this was a great, insightful post, and I was just reminded of > what it said while listening to "Yvette in English" by the chord on the word > "bliss" at the end of each verse. It's an unexpected chord -- a deceptive > cadence -- distant from the key of the song, as if something suddenly comes > from somewhere outside the song -- somewhere heavenly, perhaps, yet the chord > also creates tension and confusion in a way. So in this way I think the music > too suggests both the sensual and divine actions of "bliss" in their lives. > > --David > > NP: _Turbulent Indigo_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:38:49 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Which live album is better:MOI or S&L? Mark wrote: >Apples & oranges as far as I'm concerned. But they are >entirely different in musical style and as far as I'm concerned, >it's a draw. Although I do have a special fondness for MOA. I agree, they are so different musically it's hard to draw any comparisions. But I also have a special fondness for MOA, partly because it was one of the first albums I bought, but also because Joni "chats" a lot more, eg. "a painter does a painter, and he does a painting...." After saying that though, S&L is one of my favourites musically, so I guess I'm just going to have to call it a draw! Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:24:45 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Which live album is better:MOI or S&L? My vote for the best recent typo goes to Hell, who wrote, quoting Joni: "a painter does a painter, and he does a painting...." I think I'll probably never hear it the other way again, Hell. Were you distracted by the gay thread, perhaps? Thanks for a good laugh, --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:27:15 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Single Gender Marriage siiiiiiiiiiiiiigh...mark do you have a twin brother? why are all my potential husbands already taken? wallyk, who usually sounds like a red-light slut but who really WANTS to marry > I would have married > Edward and I would marry Travis simply because I love Travis & loved > Edward. Edward & I were together for nine years, by the way, and > death was the only thing that could ever have split us up. Travis & I > are approaching 5 years and I told him at the start, you aren't moving > in here unless it's for the long haul. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:30:13 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Women Footballers NJC you're right hell. i played rugby for ten years and i shed many a tear. especially in the locker rooms. wallyk, more a tackler than a tacklee > As an ex-rugby-playing woman, I can honestly say that women don't make > better football/rugby players than men: > > (1) Too many of them cry when they get tackled hard. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:38:42 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Number Two all my number two's [popular music] are: LAURA NYRO/carole king/karen carpenter/laurie anderson/rickie lee jones/blossom dearie/ella/LAURA NYRO wallyk, serial fan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:33:11 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: Number Two The CD I most often reach for when not listening to Joni is "Bringing on the Weather" by Jacko Pierce, actually two men Jack O'Neill and Cary Pierce who are no longer together, more's the pity. I love the lyrics here's a small sample Late Shift And I know your last words were don't call But I've been driving through a sorry night And I hear your dear John through the hum of the highway On the late shift on a long ride saying John, dear John you've got a lot to learn about loving me And I know you try but we've just run out of time Now there's a rain cutting shadows through my headlights On a stretch of road between dusk and dawn In the first light I lose the running fight And I stop to find a phone And I know what the silence on the wire is In the waking hours of a nameless day And I know you can't do your loving From a phone booth off the highway 900 miles or so away But you don't fret about the bottom dropping out It'll be alright, It'll turn around You just dig in friend and keep your powder dry You keep your powder dry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:17:22 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: "Our House" Kid Heads Artists Against Piracy This is from TheStandard.com's interview entitled "Founder of Artists Against Piracy Speaks Out:" Q: Your Dad [Ron Stone, head of the Gold Mountain music management company] is in the music business. What was that experience like? I assume you've met a lot of big-name artists in your life. A: Yeah, I grew up in Joni Mitchell's house, the house that Graham Nash wrote Our House about. I grew up in 'our house.' That's about it for Joni content, but the rest of the article can be found at http://biz.yahoo.com/st/000718/16931.html --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:28:21 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Which live album is better:MOI or S&L? - NJC Bob wrote: >My vote for the best recent typo goes to Hell, who wrote, quoting Joni: >"a painter does a painter, and he does a painting...." >I think I'll probably never hear it the other way again, Hell. Were you >distracted by the gay thread, perhaps? Whoopsie! OK, maybe I was a LITTLE distracted at the time! Serves me right for not proof-reading properly! I'll be checking subsequent posts letter by letter from now on! But the best email typo of all time goes to a friend of mine (and fellow rugby-player!) from work, who was organising the staff Xmas barbecue. Instead of writing "we will be catering for vegetarians and vegans", she wrote "we will be catering for vegetarians and vaginas". This was sent to every staff member (over 400) and won the annual "Best email of the Year" in our Silly Awards Ceremony! Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:29:52 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Women Footballers NJC WallyK wrote: >you're right hell. i played rugby for ten years and i shed many a tear. >especially in the locker rooms. >wallyk, more a tackler than a tacklee Yes, but I bet you weren't crying for quite the same reasons as these pathetic wimps! Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:48:25 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: catering service - NJC now that's what i call discrimination! we boys have hungry little things down there too ! wallyk > But the best email typo of all time goes to a friend of mine (and fellow > rugby-player!) from work, who was organising the staff Xmas barbecue. > Instead of writing "we will be catering for vegetarians and vegans", she > wrote "we will be catering for vegetarians and vaginas". This was sent to > every staff member (over 400) and won the annual "Best email of the Year" in > our Silly Awards Ceremony! > > Hell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:42:10 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: On the subject of getting the point... Well, if anything, recent threads have certainly been interesting on the jmdl! -- I love the Yvette in English thread. One of my favorite, favorite Joni songs!!!! Even seeing you guys quote the lyrics makes me giddy. Paul, while I can see the logic you are using behind your feelings towards gay civil unions, I agree with a few fellow listers that your point of view still has a few glaring snags. What you are equating is: a gay relationship being the same as a straight unmarried relationship. And that anything afforded one goes to the other. (Even tho this has never been the case.) You, for instance have the 'special right' to adopt children, or at least to be viewed more favorably by the legal system to adopt children. There aren't many states in this union that will do the same for a gay relationship. I doubt a gay couple arguing that they are 'the same' as an unmarried straight relationship would win them any custody battles. Even of children they brought into the world. If 'special' is to mean any right that one equal person gets and another does not, As a gay man I'll gladly put down my present 'special' rights at any time you are willing to put down yours: the ability to adopt. to marry. to decide who receives my property. Right of employment. Rights to have private sexual unions between consenting adults. Right to serve and protect. Right to fair housing. Right to be present in a hospital of a sick or dying loved one,. (It's late and I'm only scratching the surface...) Heck, you can't even umpire in Major league baseball if you're gay and proud of it. Given the structure of government we have and how oblivious (and I do mean oblivious) the larger whole is to reality of those who are different, it's unlikely someone in my position is going to receive a supreme court eddict that says (something to the equivalent of) a man borne on U.S. soil shall have the same rights(special, rare, commonplace or otherwise) as every other man born on U.S. soil, regardless of sexual orientation. There is no present equality of rights, and it belittles the efforts of reasonable citizens acting to aquire those denied rights, privilages and benefits of the whole, who use government as the tool it was ment to be: to serve the order of law and community, that those efforts should be denied on the grounds that they are because they are 'special.' But back to your original train of logic, which I take meaning: male boyfriend + male boyfriend = male boyfriend + female girlfriend, and what goes to one should legally go to the other. This not what gay union arguments are about. It is NOT about the rights of male boyfriends. There are lots of gays who date and while they enjoy each other's company, they not see their relationship as permanent or binding. They simply like each other. They can even be monogomous and living together and still 'just' be 'in a relationship.' In which case they probably do not have joint bank accounts. Are not responsible for anyone's debts other than their own. Probably pay their fare portion of the bill when out to dinner. And most certainly, do not think of their property as belonging to anyone but themselves. It is this gay couple that you are equating: gay couple equals straight couple. But this in NOT the issue of GAY UNIONS. It is precisely addressing a different topic: One boyfriend who is in a relationship with another boyfriend, who expressly desires to manifest in legal (if not other terms) a commited union. In which one party, for better or for worse desires that his assets be bound and rightful to the other. That his property does in fact belong to the other. That his medical decisions can and should be made by this chosen partner, above and beyond the rights of all others, even those with biological ties. That the other parties' debt is indeed his debt. It's NOT a legal contract for the right to be boyfriends or to afford 'boyfriends' any legal rights. There aren't any 'gifts' or 'rights' contained therein other that this: the legal right to make UNION. It is seeking LEGAL recourse to make a contract between parties that ties them in ways that are significant and substantial. It is not 'I've got a boyfriend, hand me some rights." It is, I've got a boyfriend, I want to contractually make us as one on issues that are important to me: transfer of property, responsibility of debt, etc. etc. It is laughable to me that you can go out and sign a slip of paper with any bozo in america, sight unseen and make all sorts of legal and binding contracts with that person and its no big deal. But for me to seek a binding contract with my life partner as to who has rights of survivorship, the powers of attorney, etc. etc. --Suddenly I am shaking the very foundations of marriage, and asking for something you can't have. You can have it. It's called marriage. Or if you don't like 'marriage' you can have the 'civil' contract we desire. Make her debts yours! Just sign the dotted line. --Yum, lots of 'special' rights there. O well, I'm not sure I put this in a way that open's a new perspective for you, but at least I gave it the old college try... ps. I hope you don't find this strident, believe me, I'm being polite on this. As a black male who grew up on the outskirts of Cicero Il., one of the most racially biased towns in America, during the heyday of the sixties upheaval, I got quite a bit of education on the subject of equal and equal protection under the law. The hand of oppression feeds mightily on the middle that wants to imagine their is no injustice. As a curious sidebar, my boyfriend, who is Irish grew up on the other side of that dividing line. pps. My apologies for the gender bias in my language. All he's are certainly meant to be fair and equal to she's. --you know what I mean.... pppps. Sorry for not including njc, but we're already down this road... Gee, thanks Rick for starting the fun threads. :-) John Calimee. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:51:32 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Fan Mania & VH1 & Joni Oh, no! Could this be the end of the jmdl? Will there be defectors? Where will Jonimania stop? From a VH1 press release: Monday July 17, 1:08 pm Eastern Time Company Press Release SOURCE: VH1.com It's Fan Mania at VH1.com as New Fan Clubs Debut Britney Spears, Joni Mitchell, Brian McKnight, Motley Crue, and Phish NEW YORK, July 17 /PRNewswire/ -- VH1.com, a unit of the MTVi Group, announced the additions to its popular Fan Clubs, the expansive new section of the VH1.com Web site that connects music fans to the artists and music they love, whenever they want, 24-hours a day. The latest Fan Clubs include Joni Mitchell, Brian McKnight, Britney Spears, Motley Crue, Vertical Horizon, Phish and Spinal Tap. VH1.com Fan Clubs make it easy to keep up with the musicians that music fans really care about, and provide a cool way to meet other like-minded listeners. Here's how Fan Clubs get you up close and personal with your favorite artists. When a fan is watching a Goo Goo Dolls video on VH1, they can now go straight to the VH1.com Goo Goo Dolls Fan Club to find out what album the song is on, or when the band's next tour rolls into town. VH1.com Fan Clubs give fans access to every bit of information their hearts desire, including the latest news and reviews, streaming audio and video, exclusive ticket sales, photos, upcoming TV appearances, as well as auctions and memorabilia trading. In addition to the latest round of artists, VH1.com Fan Clubs already feature a diverse roster of artists including Bob Dylan, Madonna, Bruce Springsteen, Tori Amos, Fatboy Slim, Ricky Martin, Dave Matthews, Blondie, TLC, The Who, Nine Inch Nails, Hole, Beck, Wyclef Jean, Santana and more. About The MTVi Group: VH1.com is a unit of The MTVi Group, the world's leading online music entertainment company featuring a comprehensive collection of music destinations on the Internet. The MTVi Group's 22 worldwide destinations include MTV.com, VH1.com, and sonicnet.com. The MTVi Group is a unit of MTV Networks, which is owned by Viacom Inc. (NYSE: VIA - news, VIA.B - news). Headquartered in downtown New York, The MTVi Group has satellite offices in San Francisco, CA. Liberty Digital (NYSE: LDIG - news) holds a minority stake in The MTVi Group. For more information please visit the MTVi Group corporate Web site (http://www.mtvi.com ). http://www.vh1.com SOURCE: VH1.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #405 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?