From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #401 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Wednesday, July 19 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 401 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) [SMEBD@aol.com] RE: Mother speaks NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Apology NJC and gay 'rights' NJC ["Steve Polifka" ] Stand & Be Counted (NJC) [leslie@torchsongs.com] Shepherd pt1NJC [catman ] Shepherd pt2NJC [catman ] shepherd pt 3 NJC [catman ] Shepherd Comment NJC [catman ] Re: Joni & Feminism and labels njc ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: Joni's Viewpoints [Emmy M Burns ] Re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) [RandyRemote ] Re: Crosby Chronicles Musical Activism NJC [RandyRemote ] Re: Joni's Viewpoints [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Mother speaks NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Politicks..tocks..ticks....tocks (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Joni Pics [Michael Paz ] Hello Metheny (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: Saltimbanco (njc) ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: JMDL Digest V2000 #399 ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Joni Pics ["Ken (slarty)" ] RE: Saltimbanco (njc) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Joni's Viewpoints [pat holden ] Re: Feminism (NJC) [Heather ] Re: Joni and labels njc ["Kakki" ] re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) [Heather ] feminism IS humanism, isn't it? NJC [Kate ] Benefits of marriage (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:16:11 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) In a message dated 7/18/00 5:00:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << Ever hear about trusts ? Parents and next of kin havemajor problems violating the terms and conditions of legally and professionally created trusts. >> OK--I have to put in my two cents. I have most certainly heard of trusts. When my father died, he set up a family trust. My sister has been trying for years to get my mother to write me out of her will because I am gay. A couple of years ago, my sister and mother moved the trust and began to sell off land without my knowledge (even though all three of us were named as trustees by my father's will). Well, guess what? In NC, where my father's will was set up, and where my mother and sister live, the law allows a majority of the trustees to have the say about what happens. In effect, after spending thousands of dollars, I was told that they didn't do anything wrong. Now I'm supposed to trust the law to protect my partner? I have a will that names him as my beneficiary, but I don't know that it will protect us. We will do everything that we can, but wouldn't it be better if we had equal protection under the law. (You might also be interested to hear that at one point we thought that we might have to have a hearing and there was a question as to whether or not my partner of 9 years could sit in on the proceedings. There was no question as to whether or not my brother-in-law was allowed to sit in. He was family). The truth is, gay men and women are not asking for special privileges--we are asking for equal protection under the law. After all, we pay taxes too! Stephen (up on his soapbox) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:32:48 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Mother speaks NJC wow, colin! this letter is dynamite!!!! where did you get it? wallyk, still searching for those damn interviews. i never knew i had so much joni related material in my maid's room. > As the mother of a gay son, I've seen > firsthand how cruel and misguided people > can be. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:29:04 -0500 From: "Steve Polifka" Subject: Apology NJC and gay 'rights' NJC Hi... The other day I accidently sent a message to the list which was private. My apologies... Thanks, Kakki, for the info; it was nice to know I was on the right track. And thanks Jimmy for the bit of comedy- I needed a laugh! All these viewpoints on rights- human -gay-straight got me to thinking about my life alot, and my own experiences. Especially that shared letter from Catman- thanks for that! I've never thought of myself as militant. I'm myself, at all times with whomever I am with. I am no different with my straight friends than with my gay ones...(well a little more campier at times...lol) Anyway, many people have commented to me on this- in a very positive fashion, including some of my own siblings. Many people at times felt compelled to ask if I was gay or not. My astonished look surprised them. I could never understand why they even asked!( I thought everyone knew!) In my mind, I just looked at myself as myself, and not align myself with any label or definition. Many people that I have known through my life who professed to not like gays were accepting of me. (Not all, of course, but most!) That also surprised me! Especially when the relationship grew! Sometimes I think that maybe, just maybe, the fact that I totally accept myself somehow affects others. Always amazes me when that experience repeats itself... Thanks for listening... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:44:48 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Mother speaks NJC http://www.stopdrlaura.com Wally Kairuz wrote: > wow, colin! this letter is dynamite!!!! where did you get it? > wallyk, still searching for those damn interviews. i never knew i had so > much joni related material in my maid's room. > > > As the mother of a gay son, I've seen > > firsthand how cruel and misguided people > > can be. - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:56:12 -0700 (PDT) From: leslie@torchsongs.com Subject: Stand & Be Counted (NJC) This is a political issue that I feel passionate about and I'm sure that I'm not alone here... Please vote on whether leghold traps should be banned at > http://www.vote.com/vote/11724842/ > This is not your ordinary online poll. The results will be forwarded to all 50 governors. > The trappers have narrowed the gap from 2/3 opposed to a dead heat. They have been circulating action alerts on their email lists and stuffing the ballot box. > Everyone, please go to this web site and vote on this issue. > http://www.vote.com/vote/11724842/ Thank you. Leslie Mixon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:24:41 +0100 From: catman Subject: Shepherd pt1NJC Remarks by Dennis Shepard 11/04/99 Your Honor, Members of the Jury, Mr. Rerucha, I would like to begin my Statement by addressing the jury. Ladies and gentlemen, a terrible crime was committed in Laramie thirteen months ago. Because of that crime, the reputation of the city of Laramie, the University of Wyoming, and the State of Wyoming became synonymous with gay bashing, hate crimes and brutality. While some of this reputation may be deserved, it was blown out of proportion by our friends in the media. Yesterday, you, the jury, showed the world that Wyoming and the city of Laramie will not tolerate hate crimes. Yes, this was a hate crime, pure and simple, with the added ingredient of robbery. My son, Matthew, paid a terrible price to open the eyes of all of us who live in Wyoming, the United States, and the world to the unjust and unnecessary fears, discrimination and intolerance that members of the gay community face every day. Yesterday's decision by you showed true courage and made a statement. That statement is that Wyoming is the Equality State, that Wyoming will not tolerate discrimination based on sexual orientation, that violence is not the solution. Ladies and gentlemen, you have the respect and admiration of Matthew's family and friends and of countless strangers around the world. Be proud of what you have accomplished. You may have prevented another family from losing a son or daughter. Your Honor, I would also like to thank you for the dignity and grace with which this trail was conducted. Repeated attempts to distract the court from the true purpose of this trial failed because of your attentiveness, knowledge and willingness to take a stand and make new law in the area of sexual orientation and the 'Gay Panic' defense. By doing so, you have emphasized that Matthew was a human being with all the rights and responsibilities and protections of any citizen of Wyoming. Mr. Rerucha took the oath of office as Prosecuting Attorney to protect the rights of the citizens of Albany County as mandated by the laws of the State of Wyoming, regardless of his personal feelings and beliefs. At no time did Mr. Rerucha make any decision on the outcome of this case without the permission of Judy and me. It was our decision to take this case to trial just as it was our decision to accept the plea bargain today and the earlier plea bargain of Mr. Henderson. A trial was necessary to show that this was a hate crime and not just a robbery gone bad. If we had sought a plea barga in earlier, the facts of this case would not have been known and the question would always be present that we had something to hide. In addition, this trial was necessary to help provide some closure to the citizens of Laramie, Albany County and the State. I find it intolerable that the priests of the Catholic Church and the Newman Center would attempt to influence the jury, the prosecution and the outcome of this trial by their castigation and persecution of Mr. Rerucha and his family in his private life, by their newspaper advertisements and by their presence in the courtroom. I find it difficult to believe that they speak for all Catholics. If the leaders of churches want to comment as private citizens, that is one thing. If they say that they represent the beliefs of their church, that is another. This country was founded on separation of church and state. The Catholic Church has stepped over the line and has become a political group with its own agenda. If that be the case, treat them as a political group and eliminate their privileges as a religious organization. My son, Matthew did not look like a winner. After all, he was small for his age-weighing at the most 110 pounds and standing only 5'2" tall. He was rather uncoordinated and wore braces from the age of 13 until the day he died. However, in his all too brief life, he proved that he was a winner. My son, a gentle caring soul, proved that he was as tough as, if not tougher than, anyone I have ever heard of or known. On October 6, 1998, my son tried to show the world that he could win again. On October 12, 1998, my first-born son, and my hero, lost. On October 12, 1998, my first-born son, and my hero, died. On October 12, 1998, part of my life, part of my hopes and part of my dreams died, 50 days before his 22nd birthday. He died quietly , surrounded by family and friends, with his mother and brother holding his hand. All that I have left now are the memories and the mementos of his existence. I would like to briefly talk about Matt and the impact of his death. It's hard to put into words how much Matt meant to family and friends and how much they meant to him. Everyone wanted him to succeed because he tried so hard. The spark that he provided to people had to be experienced. He simply made everyone feel better about themselves. Family and friends were his focus. He knew that he always had their support for anything that he wanted to try. - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:25:33 +0100 From: catman Subject: Shepherd pt2NJC Matt's gift was people. He loved being with people, helping people and making others feel good. The hope of a better world, free of harassment and discrimination because a person was different, kept him motivated. All his life he felt the stabs of discrimination. Because of that, he was sensitive to other people's feelings. He was naive to the extent that, regardless of the wrongs people did to him, he still had faith that they would change and become 'nice'. Matt trusted people perhaps, too much. Violence was not a part of his life until his senior year in high school. He would walk into a fight and try to break it up. He was the perfect negotiator. He could get two people talking to each other again as no one else could. Matt loved people and he trusted them. He could never understand how one person could hurt another, physically or verbally. They would hurt him and he would give them another chance. This quality of seeing only good gave him friends around the world. He didn't see size, race, intelligence, sex, religion or the hundred other things that people use to make choices aboutpeople. All he saw was the person. All he wanted was to make another person his friend. All he wanted was to make another person feel good. All he wanted was to be accepted as an equal. What did Matt's friends think of him? Fifteen of his friends from high school in Switzerland, as well as his high school advisor, joined hundreds of others at his memorial services. They left college, fought a blizzard and came together one more time to say goodbye to Matt. Men and women coming from different countries, cultures and religions, thought enough of my son to drop everything and come to Wyoming- most of them for the first time. That's why this Wyoming country boy wanted to major in foreign relations and languages. He wanted to continue making friends and, at the same time, help others. He wanted to make a difference. Did he? You tell me. I loved my son and, as can be seen throughout this statement, was proud of him. He was not my gay son. He was my son who happened to be gay. He was a good looking, intelligent, caring person. There were the usual arguments and, at times, he was a real pain in the butt. I felt the regrets of a father when he realizes that his son is not a star athlete. But it was replaced with a greater pride when I saw him on the state. The hours that he spent learning his parts, working behind the scenes and helping others made me realize he was actually an excellent athlete, in a more dynamic way, because of the different types of physical and mental conditioning required by actors. To this day, I have never figured out how he was able to spend all those hours at the theater, during the school year, and still have good grades. Because my job involved lots of travel, I never had the same give and take with Matt that Judy had. Our relationship, at times, was strained. But, whenever he had problems we talked. For example, he was unsure about revealing to me that he was gay. He was afraid that I would reject him immediately so it took him a while to tell me. By that time, his mother and brother had already been told. One day, he said that he had something to say. I could see that he was nervous so I asked him if everything was alright. Matt took a deep breath and told me that he was gay. Then he waited for my reaction. I still remember his surprise when I said "Yeah? Okay, but what's the point of this conversation?" Then everything was okay. We went back to being a father and son who loved each other and respected the beliefs of the other. We were father and son but we were also friends. How do I talk about the loss that I feel every time I think about Matt? How can I describe the empty pit in my heart and mind when I think about all the problems that were put in Matt's way that he overcame. No one can understand the sense of pride and accomplishment that I felt every time he reached the mountaintop of another obstacle. No one, including myself, will ever know the frustration and agony that others put him through, because he was different. How many people could be given the problems that Matt was presented with and still succeed, as he did? How many people would continue to smile, at least on the outside while crying on the inside, to keep other people from feeling bad? I now feel very fortunate that I was able to spend some private time with Matt last summer during my vacation from Saudi Arabia. We sat and talked. I told Matt that he was my hero and that he was the toughest man that I had ever known. When I said that I bowed down to him out of his respect for his ability to continue to smile and keep a positive attitude during all the trials and tribulations that he had gone through, he just laughed. I also told him how proud I was because of what he had accomplished and what he was trying to accomplish. The last thing I said to Matt was that I loved him and he said he loved me. That was the last private conversation that I ever had with him. Impact on my life? My life will never be the same. I miss Matt terribly. I think about him all the time- at odd moments when some little thing reminds me of him; when I walk by the refrigerator and see the pictures of him and his brother that we've always kept on the door; at special times of the year like the first day of classes at UW or opening day of sage chicken hunting. I keep wondering almost the same thing I did when I first saw him in the hospital. What would he have become? How would he have changed his piece of the world to make it better? Impact on my life? I feel a tremendous sense of guilt. Why wasn't I there when he needed me most? Why didn't I spend more time with him? Why didn't I try to find another type of profession so that I could have been available to spend more time with him as he grew up? What could I have done to be a better father and friend? How do I get an answer to those questions now? The only one who can answer them is Matt. These questions will be with me for the rest of my life. What makes it worse for me is knowing that his mother and brother will have similar unanswered questions. Impact on my life? In addition to losing my son, I lost my father on November 4, 1998. The stress of the entire affair was too much for him. Dad watched Matt grow up. He taught him how to hunt, fish, camp, ride horses and love the state of Wyoming. Matt, Logan, Dad and I would spend two to three weeks camping in the mountains at different times of the year- to hunt, to fish and to goof off. Matt learned to cook over an open fire, telling fishing stories about the one that got away and to drive a truck from my father. Three weeks before Matt went to the Fireside Bar for the last time, my parents saw Matt in Laramie. In addition, my father tried calling Matt the night that he was beaten, but received no answer. He never got over the guilt of not trying earlier. The additional strain of the hospital vigil, being in the hospital room with Matt when he died, the funeral services with all the media attention and the protesters, as well as helping Judy and me clean out Matt's apartment in Laramie a few days later, was too much. Three weeks after Matt's death, Dad died. Dad told me after the funeral that he never expected to outlive Matt. The stress and the grief were just too much for him. - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:26:54 +0100 From: catman Subject: shepherd pt 3 NJC Impact on my life? How can my life EVER be the same again? When Matt was little I used to take showers with him , just to teach him not to be scared of the water. Later, Matt helped me do the same thing with Logan. Anyway, Matt and I would be in the shower spitting mouthfuls of water at each other or at his mother, if he could convince her to come into the bathroom. Then he would laugh and laugh. We would also sing in the showers. I taught him the songs "Row, Row, Row Your Boat", both "Brother John" and its French version "Frere Jacque" and "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star." Matt would sing loud and clear. Now that voice is silent, the boat has sunk, Jacque is no longer Frere and the little star no longer twinkles. Matt officially died at 12:53 AM on Monday, October 12, 1998 in a hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado. He actually died on the outskirts of Laramie, tied to a fence that Wednesday before when you beat him. You, Mr. McKinney, with your friend Mr. Henderson, killed my son. By the end of the beating, his body was just trying to survive. You left him out there by himself but he wasn't alone. There were his lifelong friends with him- friends that he had grown up with. You're probably wondering who these friends were. First, he had the beautiful night sky with the same stars and moon that we used to look at through a telescope. Then he had the daylight and the sun to shine on him one more time- one more cool, wonderful autumn day in Wyoming. His last day alive in Wyoming. His last day alive in the state that he always proudly called home. And through it all, he was breathing in , for the last time, the smell of Wyoming sage brush and the scent of pine trees from the Snowy Range. He heard the wind- the ever present Wyoming wind for the last time. He had one more friend with him. One he grew to know through his time in Sunday School and as an acolyte at St. Mark's in Casper as well as through his visits to St. Matthew's in Laramie. He had God. I feel better, knowing that he wasn't alone. Matt became a symbol- some say a martyr, putting a boy-next-door face on hate crimes. That's fine with me. Matt would be thrilled if his death would help others. On the other hand, your agreement to life without parole has taken yourself out of the spotlight and out of the public eye. It means no drawn out appeals process, chance of walking away free due to a technicality and no chance of a lighter sentence due to a 'merciful' jury. Best of all you won't be a symbol. No years of publicity, no chance of a commutation, no nothing- just a miserable future and a more miserable end. It works for me. My son was taught to look at all sides of an issue before making a decision or taking a stand. He learned this early when he helped campaign for various political candidates while in grade school and junior high. When he did take a stand, it was based on his best judgement. Such a stand cost him his life when he quietly let it be known that he was gay. He didn't advertise it but he didn't back away from the issue either. For that I'll always be proud of him. He showed me that he was a lot more courageous than most people, including myself. Matt knew that there were dangers to being gay but he accepted that and wanted to just get on with his life and his ambition of helping others. Matt's beating, hospitalization and funeral focused world-wide attention on hate. Good is coming out of evil. People have said "Enough is enough." You screwed up, Mr. McKinney. You made the world realize that a person's lifestyle is not a reason for discrimination, intolerance, persecution and violence. This is not the 1920's, 30's and 40's of Nazi Germany. My son died because of your ignorance and intolerance. I can't bring him back. But I can do my best to see that this never, ever happens to another person or another family again. As I mentioned earlier, my son has become a symbol- a symbol against hate and people like you; a symbol for encouraging respect for individuality, for appreciating that someone is different, for tolerance. I miss my son but I'm proud to be able to say that he is my son. Mr. McKinney , one final comment before I sit and this is the reason that I stand before you now. At no time since Matt was found at the fence and taken to the hospital have Judy and I made any statements about our beliefs concerning the death penalty. We felt that would be an undue influence on any prospective juror. Judy has been quoted by some right wing groups as being against the death penalty. It has been stated that Matt was against the death penalty. Both of these statements are wrong. We have held family discussions and talked about the death penalty. For example, he and I discussed the horrible death of James Byrd, Jr. in Jasper, Texas. It was his opinion that the death penalty should be sought and that no expense should be spared to bring those responsible for this murder to justice. Little did we know that the same response would come about involving Matt. I, too, believe in the death penalty. I would like nothing better than to see you die, Mr. McKinney. However, this is the time to begin the healing process. To show mercy to someone who refused to show any mercy. To use this as the first step in my own closure about losing Matt. Mr. McKinney I am not doing this because of your family. I am definitely not doing it because of the crass and unwarranted pressures put on by the religious community. If anything, that hardens my resolve to see you die. Mr. McKinney, I'm going to grant you life, as hard as it is for me to do so, because of Matthew. Every time you celebrate Christmas, a birthday or the fourth of July, remember that Matthew isn't. Every time you wake up in that prison cell, remember that you had the opportunity and the ability to stop your actions that night. Every time that you see your cell mate, remember that you had a choice and now you are living that choice. You robbed me of something very precious and I will never forgive you for that. Mr. McKinney, I give you life in the memory of one who no longer lives. May you have a long life and may you thank Matthew every day for it. Your Honor, Members of the Jury, Mr. Rerucha Thank you. - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:42:22 +0100 From: catman Subject: Shepherd Comment NJC Many people reading Mr Shepherd's words will be moved. Unfortunately, i think those that will be moved are those that already have seen the light or were never out of the light. I know that there will be those whose hearts are hardend by their religious ideas and /or biogtry and these words will not touch them. In there mind they are right and nothing will ever alter that. Their belief in the infallibility of their own judgement will see to it that they remain in darkness and so they will continue to have blood on their hands. All we can do is continue to combat the evils of bigotry and fundamentalism by remaing true to the principles of love and respect for others. grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:05:38 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism and labels njc Human beings are > individuals with their own uniqueness and complexities. How can any one > individual beliefs be reduced to any one generic label? > > Kakki > Beautifully expressed, as always. Bravo, Kakki! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:24:22 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Mother speaks NJC > wow, colin! this letter is dynamite!!!! where did you get it? > wallyk, still searching for those damn interviews. i never knew i had so > much joni related material in my maid's room. Hey! Isn't it about time you gave Rosario a day off?? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:25:43 -0700 From: Emmy M Burns Subject: RE: Joni's Viewpoints I think I'm a little late on this, but I do want to add my opinion (thanks Rev, for clearing up the definition of feminism): I too was surprised when I heard that Joni did not identify as a feminist or believe in feminism as a positive good. Being a feminist does not mean a person is a man-hater. That is one of the hideous stereotypes that was created to discredit women as they gained authority in society. I think it is damaging to the women's rights movement for the word/concept 'feminism' to be demonized (language is powerful and attacking the word is attacking the concept of women rights IMO). Joni Mitchell and every other woman in the country have increased personal freedom due to the work of feminists everywhere. Think back to days before women had the right to vote or even more recently to the 1970's and you will not see female politicians, athletes, college students and musicians etc. When Joni criticizes feminism she seems to ignore the fact that the choices she made in her own life are only recently available to women. If she could expand her concept of feminism beyond "apartheid man-haters" I think she might see that you are either a feminist--believing that women have the same right to achieve their potential as men--or, as Ani Difranco so frankly put it, "you're a sexist. There is no box marked other." That's my belief anyway and although I admire Joni beyond description I cannot figure the anti-feminist side of her out, Emmy ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:35:38 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) This is almost exactly the plot of a movie called "If These Walls Could Talk 2"...actually a trilogy of short stories...Vanessa Redgrave turns in a moving performance... I think it was an HBO original movie...recommended... RR catman wrote: > There was a recent case involving a female/female couple. they had been > together 33 years. the mortage was in one name only. The mortgage holder > became ill with cancer. Towards her end, she was admitted into hospital. her > lover was BARRED from seeing her by the other woman's family. as soon as the > woman died, her lover was thrown out of the house. > The excuse for this evil was that their relationship was against their > religion. > I can well understand why some people would be driven to murder, as wrong as > that would be. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:41:13 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #399 on 7/18/00 2:02 PM, JMDL Digest at les@jmdl.com wrote: > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 06:38:57 -0300 > From: "Wally Kairuz" > Subject: RE: Joni misquoted? > > yes, if i remember it well, joni said that homosexual designers were making > women look more like men so that it would be easier for homosexuals to look > like women. > again, i want to make sure that EVERYBODY understands i'm not accusing joni > of anything. it's just that i think that joni is possibly a more > conservative person than it might at first seem. so please, stop the > private, cowardly flaming. you know who are and you belong in the > inquisition. > wallyk Wally Who is doing this? We'll rip em to shreads! We are not going to tolerate this kind of behaviour on the list anymore. Please forward me any abusive private emails and I will make a report. Have you noticed that Nuriel/Ada is no longer among us? Michael (serious now instead of salacious) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:40:41 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Crosby Chronicles Musical Activism NJC I applaud Crosby for his effort. The first time I saw him perform, acoustically with Graham Nash, it was for a "Save the Whales" benifit in SF. Having said that, I am certain that, years ago, he was quoted as saying rather forcefully that politics had no place in music. RR Kate Bennett wrote: > Crosby Chronicles Musical Activism > By Megan Bucks > > When it comes to writing and singing songs about world hunger, poverty, and > human rights, the legendary David Crosby has always been there to stand and > be counted. And now the outspoken member of Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young > is taking his activism to TV, in a miniseries for the Learning Channel > titled (what else?) Stand and Be Counted. > > Based upon his book of the same name, Crosby and friends, including Bonnie > Raitt, Jackson Brown, Sting, Harry Belafonte, Jewel, Pete Seeger, Tracy > Chapman, Carlos Santana, Bob Geldof, Willie Nelson, and others, chronicle > the history of music made for a cause. In both the book and the miniseries, > Crosby tracks the evolution of musical activism from the non-violent > protests for civil rights in the 1960s, to the No Nukes concerts of the > 1970s, Live Aid and Farm Aid in the 80s, and the current annual concerts to > support a free Tibet. > > Crosby says the four-hour series, scheduled to air Aug. 22 and 23 from 9:00 > to 11:00 p.m., is an overview of 40 years of musical activism interwoven > with celebrity interviews and news footage, using the music of Pete Seeger > and Woody Guthrie as the documentary's "jumping-off point." > > "We thought that was a salient point, and that those two guys were such good > examples, that we could pick up there," Crosby says. "It went from there > into the Civil Rights Movement, and that was a huge part of our story. The > two major examples of activism in this last 50 years have been the Civil > Rights Movement and the Vietnam War. They were slightly connected, and they > segued one into the next, and they overlapped." > > Crosby, whose father made documentaries in the 1930s as part of the WPA, > admits he was a little skittish about pitching the idea of a documentary to > any network. > > "I know documentaries are very hard to sell. Nothing blows up. There's no > car chase. Nobody takes their top off." > > Crosby proudly acknowledges two of his personal heroes for change are Gandhi > and, "that kid in Tienenman Square, for standing up in front of the tank," > and he insisted that music and protest are a perfect fit. > > "Musicians have two jobs: to entertain and to be the town crier, the > troubadour - to say, 'It's 12 o'clock and all is well,' or 'It's 12:30 and > it's not so damn good." > > Although he cautions the town crier gig is not without it's share of > personal responsibility. "One guy. That's what we're trying to get across," > he says. "There's nothing more powerful in the world than an idea. If you > believe in something strongly enough, and you are willing to stand up for > what you believe in, it will affect people around you in a ripple that > spreads out." > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > www.cdbaby.com/katebennett > www.amazon.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:43:17 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "Hejira" from what? Bruce Merrill wondered, > PPS hmmmm, What was the destination for Joni's Hejira? The literal fact, as I remember it, is amazingly banal for such a fantastic final product (the Hejira album). As I remember, Joan was attempting to drive her east-coast car to Los Angeles without being discovered as an un-licensed driver. Hence the danger. Much, much more about Hejira, and it's makings is (are?) available at JJ's and Les'es respective sites. Jim Johanson is doing an excellent job of preserving Wally Bresse's historical sections of www.jonimitchell.com even as JJ expands Wally's vision. Tons of Joni lore is included in the above mentioned web page, available free, 24 hours per day. My crawfish-eating buddy Les Irvin also has tons of INDEXED articles / interviews with Our Lady of Duality on his crucial www.jmdl.com Also Les he has posted some new photos of the JoniFest held in New Orleans, Louisiana at http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/jfno2000.cfm Mine are the ones that are out-of-focus. :( My fav photo? Cindy and Bry-Bry in the balcony at the Howlin' Wolf. All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:43:53 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Viewpoints In a message dated 7/18/00 10:38:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emmy34@juno.com writes: << If she could expand her concept of feminism beyond "apartheid man-haters" I think she might see that you are either a feminist--believing that women have the same right to achieve their potential as men--or, as Ani Difranco so frankly put it, "you're a sexist. There is no box marked other." >> But there is an "other." It's called humanism, the basis of which is written in the Declaration of Independence, which I would modernize to say that "all humans are created equal." Frankly, my dear, if you're a feminist, you are also a sexist. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:44:51 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Mother speaks NJC now this is priceless! after all i've done for rosario! didn't i set her up with "just jack" so she could get her green card! oh you liberals are going to be the death of me. Karen > > Hey! Isn't it about time you gave Rosario a day off?? > > Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:45:07 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Politicks..tocks..ticks....tocks (NJC) on 7/18/00 Marcel wrote: > As of about seven working days ago there was this clear consensus to not post > political subjects on the JMDL. Since then we have had three major threads > Feminism, Gay marriages, and a completely off the wall Witchcraft thread. > Some of the listmembers who expressed that they wish there were no political > threads are actually participating. I guess the blackout has been lifted by > mutual listwide consent. Marcel- No your wrong. The medication has just worn off. No weather it's theirs or yours I wouldn't know, but I just increased mine to a steady drip. Paz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:55:49 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Mother speaks NJC > now this is priceless! after all i've done for rosario! didn't i set her up > with "just jack" so she could get her green card! oh you liberals are going > to be the death of me. > Karen > > > > > Hey! Isn't it about time you gave Rosario a day off?? > > > > Mark in Seattle Oh, honey! I was just joking! Just Jack (who's your daddy?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:57:44 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Joni Pics Ken Thank you so much to you and to Pat for making these fotos available to us folks with real computers (Macs) lol ;-} I love them and the Mac prog is real cool as well. I can't wait to add more jpgs to my list. Peace Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:05:26 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Hello Metheny (NJC) Harper Lou- This was hysterical! I just pray that Pat Metheny doesn't get wind of it and flame you on his site. You know how touchy he is about Louis Armstrong. Paz on 7/18/00 6:33 PM, JMDL Digest at les@jmdl.com wrote: > > I'm so glad to see you posting again, I wrote you a song (tune of "Hello > Dolly,") > > Oh you're back, catman, welcome back, catman, > It's so nice to have you here where you belong > You're going strong, catman, > Still never wrong, catman, > You're still naming, you're still blaming, you're still flaming on > > I feel the room swaying, > With your words playing > One of those great inflammatory posts for all to read! > So, golly gee, listers, > Feminists, catlovers and gay misters, > Catman'll never go away > Catman'll never go away > Catman'll never go away again! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:14:33 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Saltimbanco (njc) They perform in Toronto, maybe not > every year, but every time they do a new show, and > I've never had the chance to see them yet (between > being too broke, and the kids being too young to > probably appreciate it, since it's kind of aimed more > at adults - younger kids probably just wouldn't get > it) but it's sure at the top of my Things To Do When I > Get Rich list. Geez, finally someone who's heard of Cirque du Soleil! I was beginning to wonder about you Canadians! The tickets were kind of pricey. But it was so worth it! I feel like my description was inadequate. This is kind of like the circus as a work of art. No sequins or feathers (or very few feathers) but the costumes are all incredibly beautiful & colorful. There are 3 or 4 of the company whose costumes have lights that are attached to poles that curve up over their heads, kind of like reading lights or street lights. This really was one of the most entertaining & delightful experiences I have had. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:26:55 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2000 #399 that's all right, michael! i almost enjoy mauling these cowards and pricks on my own. in fact, i'm spitting out a mouthful of bones as i write. but it's great to know that i have such a fierce big brother in case they gang up on me! wallyk, NO claws for now withdrawn > Wally > Who is doing this? We'll rip em to shreads! We are not going to tolerate > this kind of behaviour on the list anymore. Please forward me any abusive > private emails and I will make a report. Have you noticed that Nuriel/Ada is > no longer among us? > > Michael (serious now instead of salacious) > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:28:35 -0400 From: "Ken (slarty)" Subject: Re: Joni Pics It was really on Pat's instance that I put up that program (thank God he's finally stopped throwing rocks at my house), but I'm glad you enjoy it - no matter what piece of junk you run it on. Michael Paz wrote: > Ken > Thank you so much to you and to Pat for making these fotos available to us > folks with real computers (Macs) lol ;-} > I love them and the Mac prog is real cool as well. I can't wait to add more > jpgs to my list. > > Peace > > Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:36:30 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Saltimbanco (njc) mark, le cirque comes to argentina every 2 or 3 years. they have spawned a number of local acts such as la guarda, which performed in nyc last january. le cirque has been so influential here that aerialism and acrobatics have become college courses in some universities. many young unemployed students have taken up circus arts as a means of making a living. one of my clients, a 43 year-old sociologist, recently gave up his job at UNICEF to work full time as an aerialist. his major influence: le cirque du soleil, of course. wallyk, applying for the position of resident elephant with ANY circus that would take me. > Geez, finally someone who's heard of Cirque du Soleil! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:10:48 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Joni's Viewpoints our fearless Paul wrote: <> and Mags replied in her weary state: oh Paul, I hang my head in shame. You leave me speechless. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:04:20 -0400 From: Heather Subject: Re: Feminism (NJC) I wondered when someone was going to mention something about the nasty higher income taxes! That's the one thing my husband & I can't stand about our marriage :-) Thanks, Don Heather At 11:11 AM 7/18/00 -0700, Don Rowe wrote: >I know I should hit the DELETE key on this, but I do >feel like pointing out a few things: > >--- RandyRemote wrote: > > Maybe we should just eliminate special privelidges > > for married > > people... > >Like what? The privilege of paying higher income >taxes? The privilege of losing at *least* 50% of your >stuff when your significant other takes a hike -- in >most states, regardless of who's at fault? The >virtual inability to obtain or hold credit in your own >name? Trust me, marriage (as a legal and political >institution) is no one-way ticket to easy street ... >just an exchange of one set of inequities for another. > >So be careful what you ask for -- lest you receive it. > > >Don Rowe > > >===== >"I do not object to others hiding from history. What I object to are >others hiding history from ME." > >-- Shelby Foote > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get Yahoo! Mail ­ Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:05:54 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni and labels njc That's pretty funny, Don, and not too far off the mark but: > Labels Joni's had to endure -- can YOU spot the album: > "The Old Folkie and Everybody" Wouldn't this be the title of a certain Rolling Stone article? ;-) Here's one I thought up - "Aging female Canadian folkie and cigarette industry supporter disappoints ex-hippie fans with classical orchestration of her old songs written during the Nixon, Ford and Reagan eras. Many blame the Russian ex-husband on Prozac." Eeeschhhh!!! ;-D Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:15:05 -0400 From: Heather Subject: re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) > >Don, not all legal benefits of marriage are merely financial. For >instance, if I get into an accident, does my partner of 10 years qualify >as next-of-kin according to the hospital? No. Can I include him on my >insurance? Well, in NYC, yes, but we are moving to Atlanta. There, the >answer is no. If one partner dies without a will, who gets control over >the estate? The other life-long partner, or the biological family of the >person who passed away? If there isn't a will, it is HELL to settle even if you are a sibling to the deceased .... been there and it is UGLY! > There are some obvious financial benefits >attached to these scenarios as well, but they aren't MERELY financial. >They are about the legal integrity of a life-long partnership. >Currently, in most places, gay&lesbian life-long partnerships have little >or no legal integrity in the eyes of insurance companies, work places, and >the courts. > >Take the following possibility, for example. If two consenting straight >adults decide to marry and their parents hate that choice, the marriage is >a legally binding relationship. That means the parents can do little to >interfere. But parents can interfere in all kinds of legal ways in >gay&lesbian partnerships, because those partnerships lack legal >protection. God knows, it happens frequently enough that this scenario >matters. If I can't protect my life-long relationship with some legal >safeguard, then my parents or my siblings are considered, by law, my >immediate next-of-kin. There are real legal consequences to this legal >conundrum. Can't you write a will and name your partner as the sole heir? This happens all the time .... doesn't matter what the circumstances. A legal will is binding. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:20:08 -0600 From: Kate Subject: feminism IS humanism, isn't it? NJC Emmy: "you are either a feminist--believing that women have the same right to achieve their potential as men--or, as Ani Difranco so frankly put it, "you're a sexist. There is no box marked other." I agree with this, although before I looked up the word "feminism" in the dictionary I preferred to think of myself as a humanist, because I thought as someone else did, who previously mentioned that "humanism" seems to include equality for both sexes more than "feminism" -- on the surface -- does. Paul, you must admit that of the two sexes in this world, on most of the planet it is females who are considered less than the equal of males. Therefore it is not, IMO, a mistake to focus on lifting them up rather than to focus equally on lifting men up as well. Generally speaking, of course. Kate ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:34:53 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Benefits of marriage (NJC) MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/00 1:14:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > djc6028@is2.nyu.edu writes: > > << But parents can interfere in all kinds of legal ways in gay&lesbian > > partnerships, because those partnerships lack legal protection. God > knows, > it happens frequently enough that this scenario matters. If I can't > protect > my life-long relationship with some legal safeguard, then my parents > or my > siblings are considered, by law, my > immediate next-of-kin. There are real legal consequences to this > legal > conundrum. >> > > Ever hear about trusts ? Parents and next of kin havemajor problems > violating > the terms and conditions of legally and professionally created > trusts. marcel Our office charges about $500 for a trust and we are cheap. The ongoing costs of a trust are factor to consider. But yes, Marcel, a trust (and a will and other legal stuff which I do for my day job) will cover the financial end... but ieven that costs more for a g/l couple, as for a married couple we can do one trust but for any unmarried couple we must do two trusts, one for each individual. A trust also means that you no longer own anything, and the costs of tranferring your possessions into a trust can be a burden, as well as living with actually owning nothing even though you are your own trustee. However, your point is taken. However, each state has it own laws and there is no legal document that I know of in any state that will give a g/l partner - or a hetero unmarried couple partner - unchallenged rights to make the medical decisions and be with their partner EVEN IF a document (in Michigan, Designation of Patient Advocate, the so-called living will) appointing the partner as such has been signed. The family can move in and trump that instantly and the court fight has not yet happened where case law has been issued preserving the right of the designated advocate over the family. And after death, there is no document that gives the unmarried partner (gay or straight) any right to be at, plan, have the funeral for their loved one, let alone dispose of the body. That right belongs to the family under Michigan case law: Koon vs Doan, issued about 1939, and still controlling. It is very complex. The next fight will be in the various state courts when a Vermont civil union is not recognized in another state, thus violating the US Constitution which gives full faith and credit to an act legal in one state in other states. That will be a costly and time consuming process, and will end up in the Supreme Court. After the Hawaii flirtation with civil unions (which failed) the US Congress passed and in the 96 election year Clinton signed into federal law a statute which defines marriage as between a male and female and bars Social Security benefits and other financial rights to a same sex couple - that denies federal protection for payment of pension benefits, etc., as well. Thus a trust only goes so far to remedy a situation. And that so far is not really very far. (the Rev) Vince, who in his non-day job does same sex commitment services... ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #401 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?