From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #400 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Tuesday, July 18 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 400 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: [RE: Jonis World View] ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Colors a little JC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Saltimbanco (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Yvette in English [Catherine McKay ] Re: Snakes & Ladders NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni misquoted? [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni Mitchell Tilesets for Kyodai Mahjongg - now incredibly njc I guess [Catherine McKay ] Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) [Louis Lynch ] re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) ["Duane J. Corpis" ] RE: Colors a little JC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Colors a little JCnjc [catman ] Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) [catman ] Accordions (VLJC) [leslie@torchsongs.com] Re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) [catman ] Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) [catman ] Re:politics alert NJC [RoseMJoy@aol.com] RE: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) [Louis Lynch ] Re: Joni & Feminism and labels njc [Don Rowe ] Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) [catman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:51:26 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: [RE: Jonis World View] Lori wrote: "A great book - maybe *the* book on this topic - is titled Seven Arrows by Hyemyohsts Storm." Wow, thanks Lori, for reminding me of that book! I still have it and will check to see if there might be any reference to our discussion here. That is unless you are all tired of the subject after my last rather lengthy post! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:58:25 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Colors a little JC YES! Thank you Mark- what a great memory. Ta Da! Here is the link to the photo- http://www.rolandus.com/USERS/RUG/ARCHIVE/WIN_96/FEAT14_2/JONI1.HTM ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:26:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Saltimbanco (njc) - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > Their shows combine elements of circus, gymnastics, > dance & > > performance art. > > I forgot to include music in this list. There is a > band that plays > during the performance and one of the troupe sings > in an ethereal, > beautiful soprano voice. I think the lyrics are in > French but I don't > think it's important that the audience understands > them. Rather they > create an almost subliminal ambience. They create their own music for each new show they do and yes, most of the lyrics would be in French, since they're based out of Quebec (originally anyway.) you can buy the CDs of the music and there's a video too if I'm not mistaken (maybe more than one). i can't imagine seeing it on video would be anything near seeing them perform live - scale and all that, you want to see it BIG! They perform in Toronto, maybe not every year, but every time they do a new show, and I've never had the chance to see them yet (between being too broke, and the kids being too young to probably appreciate it, since it's kind of aimed more at adults - younger kids probably just wouldn't get it) but it's sure at the top of my Things To Do When I Get Rich list. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:31:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Yvette in English - --- susan+rick wrote: > Jim L'Hommedieu posted: > > > > This line is even richer if you include the > context just before it: > > > > "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this > little bit of instant > > bliss.' > > And even sweeter if you imagine this said by > Claudine Longet!! > Heehee! You mean... "Pweez have ziss witto bit of instant bwiss?" (I t'ought I taw a puddy tat! I did! I did taw a puddy tat!) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:34:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders NJC - --- john low wrote: > The game has always been "Snakes & Ladders" in > Australia too - a real > 'snakey' paradise!! > John (in Sydney). > Well, that's the Yanks for you, eh? Probably some grim fundamentalist type had it changed. They probably thought snakes were too sexual! ;) (OK, forgive me. I haven't done any Yank-bashing lately!) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:40:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni misquoted? - --- kerry wrote: > I just wanted to comment on Joni's alleged quote > about society's acceptance > of homosexuality as a sign of cultural decline. > First, I don't believe that > she actually said this or if she did, it was taken > out of context. (Just as > many Bible verses are pulled out and used to condemn > gay people.) If she > were "anti-gay," would she have written "Two Grey > Rooms," a song taken from > a story about 2 gay men? She obviously thought it > was a beautiful story and > to me it was the first clue that she is accepting of > gay people. > I wonder, did Joni say this at all? And if she did, it could have been part of the rather sly, dry humour she exhibits from time to time. She could make a remark like that with a perfectly straight (so to speak!) face, and some people would miss it entirely; some would say "Whoa, Joni's a fundamentalist?" others would say "Whoa, Joni's a homophobe?" and so on. Maybe if she said it, then paused, and gave one of those Johnny Carson kind of smirks, people might have caught on. That is, if she did say it at all - we don't seem to sure about that... So, maybe we're just speculating. (Now, if Joni HAD said that, then MAYBE what she really MEANT was...) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:43:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell Tilesets for Kyodai Mahjongg - now incredibly njc I guess - --- "Ken (slarty)" wrote: > I've updated my site recently and have now included > 3 > Joni Mitchell tilesets and 5 Joni Mitchell > backgrounds in a zip file to be used with the Kyodai > Mahjongg game. > I've also included a link to web site where you can > now download a program to run a screen saver for Mac > users with which you can use the Joni Mitchell > paintings I've place on my site. Check out the > "icons" page. > All this stuff can be found at - > http://millennium.fortunecity.com/sherwood/452/ > Call me lazy, eh? And nervy. I'm asking without bothering to look for myself, pig that I am - would you by any chance have included the RULES on how to play Mahjongg there, or are we supposed to KNOW how to play? (I plead ignorance! I'm one of those who buys a game for the kids, then wants to just play the damn thing without reading the rules -there are so many of them - I just fall asleep midway through!) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:48:35 -0400 From: Matthew Snyder Subject: re: Yvette in English >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:45:57 EDT >From: Bolvangar@aol.com >Subject: re: Yvette in English > > I thought this was a great, insightful post, and I was just reminded of >what it said while listening to "Yvette in English" by the chord on the word >"bliss" at the end of each verse. It's an unexpected chord -- a deceptive >cadence -- distant from the key of the song, as if something suddenly comes >from somewhere outside the song -- somewhere heavenly, perhaps, yet the chord >also creates tension and confusion in a way. So in this way I think the music >too suggests both the sensual and divine actions of "bliss" in their lives. > >On another note, I think "Yvette in English" needs a really cheesy >oom-pah-pah accordion, for that French cafe sound. We don't have to be >smothered in good taste all the time. ;) The progression on the chorus is Fmaj - Gmaj - Amin, except on "bliss" which temporarily resolves to AbMaj9 before finally hitting Amin9, definitely a gorgeous point of release, particularly with Wayne noodling on top of it. I think the more uncomfortable point is when it hits the Amin9, not the Abmaj9. The major chord with the extra 7th and 9th tones is amazing but a brief respite, and almost to drive the point home Joni quickly hits it again (with her patented high vocal harmonies atop it) before again resolving to Amin9 and the top of the next verse. Also interesting to note that the tune actually BEGINS with this little progression (Abmaj9 is the very first chord we hear). Perhaps the chord that is REALLY out of place in the tune is the classic Joni C major chord that gets hit at the end of the first part of each verse ("so quick to question her own WORTH"). There is an accordionesque sound on there, thankfully not of the oompah variety. You can never have too much good taste when it comes to music, hehehehe..... Matt Snyder msnyder@dragonfire.net http://msnyder.dragonfire.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:56:29 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) Hi all, On the last digest, Marcel mentioned there was a clear consensus not to discuss politics on the list. I don't remember reading that, but sometimes I miss things. However, this harper votes YES for political discussions of any kind. How can you have a Joni Mitchell discussion list without politics? After all, has she not been one of the most politically outspoken songwriters for two generations? They paved paradise, they passed around her latest golden egg, they ripped off Indian land again, they threw away their rubber gloves, they leached the light out of the rooms.... and we can't discuss politics on our list? I personally have found the political discussions, and viewpoints, among the most interesting and elucidating aspects of the list. I can't picture anyone appreciating Joni's music without also considering and savoring her political opinions. She has put a lot of great ideas into words, and expressed some outrage that was long overdue. So, since I usually wax reprobate on most sensitive issues, I'll run all my political comments up some controversial flagpole and see how they fly: Feminism -- Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, too. However, fact is, men and women are different from one another. So on the human and politcal scales, we are all equal. On the personal and interpersonal scales, we need to recognize and respect that we are not always the same. Civil Unions -- Traditional Christians claim that Jesus's only commandment is to love one another, except they know he didn't mean gay people, of course. With the current homophobic attitude in conservative America, it seems that almost any right gay people request would be automatically labelled as special treatment and rejected. It's sad that some humans feel the need to apply constraints to such a godly concept as love. Quyanisquatsi -- The Hopi and other tribes describe a condition of life out of balance. It is. Joni Mitchell and other brilliant, open-minded people are listening and learning, and they're spreading the word in hopes that the American people will get it. As long as people are busy correcting her grammar, dotting her p's and q's, and trying to find political incorrectness in her words, they won't get it. Too bad. For anyone who needs to learn about life out of balance, rent Philip Glass's astounding film, Quyanisquatsi -- it will show you what the Hopi mean. Wiccan -- Someone on the list described the Wiccan discussion as "off the wall." One of the world's oldest existing religions, older than Judaism and Christianity, is being revived. Like other religions, it needs to be recognized and respected. Unfortunately, it seems to be heavily condemned today by the very Christians who borrow heavily from its age-old rituals, from incense and bread and wine, from chanting and robes and candles, to Christmas trees and Easter eggs. Wiccan should be studied and respected, if only for the fact that it is one of the few religions in history that is not responsible for promoting massive war and destrcution. How's that for chasing up four birds with one stone? Regards, Harper Lou www.louislynch.com Visit the Pennsylvania Renaissance Faire, weekends August through October 2000 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:03:46 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colors a little JC GTlad to see the pic and the article. I like the colour too but maybe not for our lounge but then again.... thanks kate Kate Bennett wrote: > YES! > > Thank you Mark- what a great memory. > > Ta Da! Here is the link to the photo- > > http://www.rolandus.com/USERS/RUG/ARCHIVE/WIN_96/FEAT14_2/JONI1.HTM > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > www.cdbaby.com/katebennett > www.amazon.com > > "bringing the melancholy world of twilight > to life almost like magic…the album grows > more intriguing with repeated listening" > All Music Guide > > "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" > Indie-Music.com > ******************************************** - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:02:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Duane J. Corpis" Subject: re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) Randy Remote said: > Maybe we should just eliminate special privelidges > for married > people... Don Rowe responded: >Like what? The privilege of paying higher income >taxes? The privilege of losing at *least* 50% of your >stuff when your significant other takes a hike -- in >most states, regardless of who's at fault? The >virtual inability to obtain or hold credit in your own >name? Trust me, marriage (as a legal and political >institution) is no one-way ticket to easy street ... >just an exchange of one set of inequities for another. >So be careful what you ask for -- lest you receive it. Don, not all legal benefits of marriage are merely financial. For instance, if I get into an accident, does my partner of 10 years qualify as next-of-kin according to the hospital? No. Can I include him on my insurance? Well, in NYC, yes, but we are moving to Atlanta. There, the answer is no. If one partner dies without a will, who gets control over the estate? The other life-long partner, or the biological family of the person who passed away? There are some obvious financial benefits attached to these scenarios as well, but they aren't MERELY financial. They are about the legal integrity of a life-long partnership. Currently, in most places, gay&lesbian life-long partnerships have little or no legal integrity in the eyes of insurance companies, work places, and the courts. Take the following possibility, for example. If two consenting straight adults decide to marry and their parents hate that choice, the marriage is a legally binding relationship. That means the parents can do little to interfere. But parents can interfere in all kinds of legal ways in gay&lesbian partnerships, because those partnerships lack legal protection. God knows, it happens frequently enough that this scenario matters. If I can't protect my life-long relationship with some legal safeguard, then my parents or my siblings are considered, by law, my immediate next-of-kin. There are real legal consequences to this legal conundrum. Duane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:09:40 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colors a little JCnjc Going to the pic gave me an idea. i used my comoputer to change the coular on my screen! I tried all sorts of things. a pastel yellow works! thanks for the idea colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:47:01 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Colors a little JC Yes, it might be better on the outside than in a room. Good luck with the decorating & now of course you know you will have to scan a photo of the room when its finished so we all can see! ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** - -----Original Message----- From: catman [mailto:catman@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 1:04 PM To: Kate Bennett Cc: Mark Domyancich; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Colors a little JC GTlad to see the pic and the article. I like the colour too but maybe not for our lounge but then again.... thanks kate Kate Bennett wrote: > YES! > > Thank you Mark- what a great memory. > > Ta Da! Here is the link to the photo- > > http://www.rolandus.com/USERS/RUG/ARCHIVE/WIN_96/FEAT14_2/JONI1.HTM > > ******************************************** > Kate Bennett > www.katebennett.com > www.cdbaby.com/katebennett > www.amazon.com > > "bringing the melancholy world of twilight > to life almost like magic…the album grows > more intriguing with repeated listening" > All Music Guide > > "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" > Indie-Music.com > ******************************************** - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:17:12 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colors a little JCnjc I also just remembered that the new sofa we bought is blue and yellow!!!! Forgot because we keep throws on it-cos of the dogs. the throws are orange. Now I KNOW the yellow will go! Geez-my memory! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:21:55 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) > > > Civil Unions -- > > Traditional Christians claim that Jesus's only commandment is to love one > another, except they know he didn't mean gay people, of course. With the > current homophobic attitude in conservative America, it seems that almost > any right gay people request would be automatically labelled as special > treatment and rejected. It's sad that some humans feel the need to apply > constraints to such a godly concept as love > > Wiccan -- > > Someone on the list described the Wiccan discussion as "off the wall." One > of the world's oldest existing religions, older than Judaism and > Christianity, is being revived. Like other religions, it needs to be > recognized and respected. Unfortunately, it seems to be heavily condemned > today by the very Christians who borrow heavily from its age-old rituals, > from incense and bread and wine, from chanting and robes and candles, to > Christmas trees and Easter eggs. > > Wiccan should be studied and respected, if only for the fact that it is one > of the few religions in history that is not responsible for promoting > massive war and destrcution. > > How's that for chasing up four birds with one stone? Now Mr Harper please refrain from doing this. It is ME that is supoposed to write stuff to be controversial and ME who is supposed to bait the Xtians. It is ME who is supposed to have an agenda and ME who is supposed to rant on about civil rights for gays. Oh and don't you know there can be no disagreements/flames without my input? Now you and others have stolen my role!!! Hummpph! > > > Regards, > > Harper Lou > www.louislynch.com > > Visit the Pennsylvania Renaissance Faire, weekends August through October > 2000 > - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:18:31 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) "Duane J. Corpis" wrote: > Don, not all legal benefits of marriage are merely financial. For > instance, if I get into an accident, does my partner of 10 years qualify > as next-of-kin according to the hospital? No. Can I include him on my > insurance? Well, in NYC, yes, but we are moving to Atlanta. There, the > answer is no. If one partner dies without a will, who gets control over > the estate? The other life-long partner, or the biological family of the > person who passed away? There are some obvious financial benefits > attached to these scenarios as well, but they aren't MERELY financial. > They are about the legal integrity of a life-long partnership. > Currently, in most places, gay&lesbian life-long partnerships have little > or no legal integrity in the eyes of insurance companies, work places, and > the courts. > > Take the following possibility, for example. If two consenting straight > adults decide to marry and their parents hate that choice, the marriage is > a legally binding relationship. That means the parents can do little to > interfere. But parents can interfere in all kinds of legal ways in > gay&lesbian partnerships, because those partnerships lack legal > protection. God knows, it happens frequently enough that this scenario > matters. If I can't protect my life-long relationship with some legal > safeguard, then my parents or my siblings are considered, by law, my > immediate next-of-kin. There are real legal consequences to this legal > conundrum. A similar situation just occurred to a friend of mine. They were together for 18 years. The condo was in his partner's name but he had contributed to it for 15 years. When his partner died quite unexpectedly and quickly he was denied entrance into the hospital room, his things were cleared out of the condo, and as next of kin his parents got control of the condo. He is even now going to court so that he can retain a portion of his partner's ashes. Yes, his partner could have gotten a will, but the point is that if they were allowed to marry, he wouldn't have been in this situation. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:17:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism njc - --- catman wrote: > > > > Any term more specific than humanist, in an > opinion I think Joni shares > > with me, implies that something MORE than > equality, such as special favors or > > privileges, is sought for that portion of humanity > that person, such as a > > feminist, is partial to. > > excellent term, i think. Unfortunately, the term > humanist, in this country, means > something entirely different. I think it includes > the above but also embraces > athieism. The Humanist Society here is athiest and > vocal about its anti > religion/God stance. In fact they can sound as > uptight and dogmatic and bigoted > as the fundies. > That's what it means here too (Canada, eh?). I think the Humanists as a movement may have co-opted the term "humanist" and given it a capital H. On the other hand, I just checked my Oxford and one of the definitions is: "system concerned with human (not divine or supernatural) matters, or with the human race (not the individual". The OCD calls it a "system", and it occurs to me that you could possibly look at things from a "humanist" point of view, and yet still believe in a God (maybe not, but I'm looking at it from the POV of the division between Church and State for example - render under Caesar, render unto God). The capital-H Humanists seem to be treating it as a religion (in a manner of speaking). The problem is labels. I think Joni just doesn't like labels, and I can understand why - people are always trying to *define* them, dammit, which means if part of the definition is something that you don't like, you have to go out and redefine yourself somehow, then some other idiot comes along and jumps on your bandwagon, then tries to steer the horses in another direction. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:20:18 -0700 (PDT) From: leslie@torchsongs.com Subject: Accordions (VLJC) A listmember wrote as part of the "Yvette In English" thread: "...needs a really cheesy oom-pah-pah accordion, for that French cafe sound. We don't have to be smothered in good taste all the time..." As the wife of an accordionist I ask, "My good sir, are you biased against accordions?" Q: What do you call an accordionist with a beeper? A: An optimist... Q:What's the difference between an onion and an accordion? A: No one cries when you slice an accordion OK. Obviously it's time for me to get back to my job in the real world. Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:27:09 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) There was a recent case involving a female/female couple. they had been together 33 years. the mortage was in one name only. The mortgage holder became ill with cancer. Towards her end, she was admitted into hospital. her lover was BARRED from seeing her by the other woman's family. as soon as the woman died, her lover was thrown out of the house. The excuse for this evil was that their relationship was against their religion. I can well understand why some people would be driven to murder, as wrong as that would be. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:21:30 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) Oh catman, catman, a thousand apologies... I was so caught up in my own bluster I forgot to get security clearance from you before I flamed. "Oh my offense is rank, it smells to heaven!" (I stole that from Willy the Shake, you know...) Oh, now I stole that one from Joni. How quickly I have hurled myself down the wrong path -- first stealing your flames, now stealing lines from other writers... Please forgive me, catman, for I know not what I do. Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:28:47 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism njc good points Catherine. To me, I don't see how one can love God and not be a humanist. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:31:13 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) Bless you. Now go and sin no more! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:35:47 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) Catman, LOL! I'm so glad to see you posting again, I wrote you a song (tune of "Hello Dolly,") Oh you're back, catman, welcome back, catman, It's so nice to have you here where you belong You're going strong, catman, Still never wrong, catman, You're still naming, you're still blaming, you're still flaming on I feel the room swaying, With your words playing One of those great inflammatory posts for all to read! So, golly gee, listers, Feminists, catlovers and gay misters, Catman'll never go away Catman'll never go away Catman'll never go away again! Regards, Harper Lou (Whose father really did name him after Louis Armstrong, so this parody is not as blasphemous as it would be as if someone else had written it!) - -----Original Message----- From: catman [mailto:catman@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 4:31 PM To: Louis Lynch Cc: 'joni@smoe.org' Subject: Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) Bless you. Now go and sin no more! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:43:54 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) Louis Lynch wrote: > > > (Whose father really did name him after Louis Armstrong, so this parody is > not as blasphemous as it would be as if someone else had written it!) Louis, Jerry Herman wrote Hello Dolly. Louis Armstrong performed and recorded it. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:28:08 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Politics Alert NJC I suppose many subjects could be considered political. I was one of only a couple of folks asking if we could please stay away from the more mudslinging election year kinds of posts. At least that is what I meant by my request. Don't know of any consensus on anything except what is NJC. ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:45:35 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re:politics alert NJC Randy wrote: Consensus? Amongst the 600+ listmembers? When did this happen? I don't remember voting.... Also, why does the Wiccan ("Witchcraft"-sounds scarier doesn't it?) thread get special distinction as "off the wall"? RR I don't recall any consensus either. I personally don't mind if folks feel compelled to voice their political views on this list, as long as they are respectful of others. We are quite a diverse group of people. As far as Wicca being associated with worshiping the devil is a myth. Wicca is a contemporary Pagan religion based on ancient beliefs. I'm personally not a member of any Pagan coven, but I feel that that they are largely misunderstood. Hell, why don't we all just go back to the burning times. Please folks lets not start another petty war again; Calm down and listen to "ladies of the canyon" Oh, if you care to further research this religion, here is another resourceful site. http://paganwiccan.about.com/religion/paganwiccan/msub101.htm Peace Rose (in New Jersey) NP: Joan Baez, Diamonds and Rust ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:45:30 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) Jerry, I knew that. I was making a joke. But, likewise, since your name is Jerry, and you immediately and mercilessly corrected me about a song written by Jerry, your correction is not as blasphemous as it would be if someone else had written it! Harper Lou - -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Notaro [mailto:notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 4:44 PM To: Louis Lynch; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) Louis Lynch wrote: > > > (Whose father really did name him after Louis Armstrong, so this parody is > not as blasphemous as it would be as if someone else had written it!) Louis, Jerry Herman wrote Hello Dolly. Louis Armstrong performed and recorded it. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:45:09 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism & benefits of marriage (NJC) In a message dated 7/18/00 1:14:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, djc6028@is2.nyu.edu writes: << But parents can interfere in all kinds of legal ways in gay&lesbian partnerships, because those partnerships lack legal protection. God knows, it happens frequently enough that this scenario matters. If I can't protect my life-long relationship with some legal safeguard, then my parents or my siblings are considered, by law, my immediate next-of-kin. There are real legal consequences to this legal conundrum. >> Ever hear about trusts ? Parents and next of kin havemajor problems violating the terms and conditions of legally and professionally created trusts. marcel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:28:51 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Crosby Chronicles Musical Activism NJC Crosby Chronicles Musical Activism By Megan Bucks When it comes to writing and singing songs about world hunger, poverty, and human rights, the legendary David Crosby has always been there to stand and be counted. And now the outspoken member of Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young is taking his activism to TV, in a miniseries for the Learning Channel titled (what else?) Stand and Be Counted. Based upon his book of the same name, Crosby and friends, including Bonnie Raitt, Jackson Brown, Sting, Harry Belafonte, Jewel, Pete Seeger, Tracy Chapman, Carlos Santana, Bob Geldof, Willie Nelson, and others, chronicle the history of music made for a cause. In both the book and the miniseries, Crosby tracks the evolution of musical activism from the non-violent protests for civil rights in the 1960s, to the No Nukes concerts of the 1970s, Live Aid and Farm Aid in the 80s, and the current annual concerts to support a free Tibet. Crosby says the four-hour series, scheduled to air Aug. 22 and 23 from 9:00 to 11:00 p.m., is an overview of 40 years of musical activism interwoven with celebrity interviews and news footage, using the music of Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie as the documentary's "jumping-off point." "We thought that was a salient point, and that those two guys were such good examples, that we could pick up there," Crosby says. "It went from there into the Civil Rights Movement, and that was a huge part of our story. The two major examples of activism in this last 50 years have been the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War. They were slightly connected, and they segued one into the next, and they overlapped." Crosby, whose father made documentaries in the 1930s as part of the WPA, admits he was a little skittish about pitching the idea of a documentary to any network. "I know documentaries are very hard to sell. Nothing blows up. There's no car chase. Nobody takes their top off." Crosby proudly acknowledges two of his personal heroes for change are Gandhi and, "that kid in Tienenman Square, for standing up in front of the tank," and he insisted that music and protest are a perfect fit. "Musicians have two jobs: to entertain and to be the town crier, the troubadour - to say, 'It's 12 o'clock and all is well,' or 'It's 12:30 and it's not so damn good." Although he cautions the town crier gig is not without it's share of personal responsibility. "One guy. That's what we're trying to get across," he says. "There's nothing more powerful in the world than an idea. If you believe in something strongly enough, and you are willing to stand up for what you believe in, it will affect people around you in a ripple that spreads out." ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:50:37 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) Catman wrote: << Oh and don't you know there can be no disagreements/flames without my input? Now you and others have stolen my role!!! Hummpph! >> Colin, that's what you get for leaving us a few weeks ago. :~) ......and I still think you should paint the walls white :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:51:51 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism and labels njc > The problem is labels. I think Joni just doesn't like > labels, and I can understand why - people are always > trying to *define* them, dammit, which means if part > of the definition is something that you don't like, > you have to go out and redefine yourself somehow, then > some other idiot comes along and jumps on your > bandwagon, then tries to steer the horses in another >direction. Thanks for this Catherine. This is exactly the problem I've always had with labels and why I can understand Joni's aversion to them. They can quickly pigeonhole one into someone else's own interpretation or projection of who you are or what you stand for. Many labels stand for good and positive ideals - Feminist, Christian, Humanist, even "Republican" and "Democrat" (in the U.S.) but chances are if you call herself any of these there will be others who will quickly jump to all kinds of conclusions that may have nothing at all to do with who you are and what you actually believe. And some will automatically draw a borderline with you based on your particular label. Any noble ideal represented in a particular label can be quickly obscured and its original goal and purpose lost. Personally I find them a great hindrance to any real communication and progress. Maybe I was just lucky - I grew up in an extended family that happened to include just about every ethnic, religious and political group and we all got along great and no one ever went after the other for their beliefs or background or said "you are a so and so, that means you are this or that". Human beings are individuals with their own uniqueness and complexities. How can any one individual beliefs be reduced to any one generic label? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:27:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism and labels njc Labels Joni's had to endure -- can YOU spot the album: "Fresh new folk voice" "Folk's freshest voice turns to pop" "Pop folkie goes jazzy" "Jazzy pop folkie looks inward" "Folkie protest singer turns spiritual" "Folkie attempts failed experiment in free jazz" "Aging folkie marries and returns to pop" "Strident aging folkie sells out for keyboards" "The Old Folkie and Everybody" "Older Wiser Folkie Returns to her Roots" "Mature Flower Child Folkie Paints Dark Portrait" "Aging Folkie Washes Out New Age Laundry" "Dotty Old Folkie Sings the Great American Songbook" Yep ... guess I'd hate labels too! ;-D Don Rowe ===== "I do not object to others hiding from history. What I object to are others hiding history from ME." - -- Shelby Foote __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:05:07 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) You should see my eyelashes batting away.... and my cheeks flush. Louis Lynch wrote: > Catman, > > LOL! > > I'm so glad to see you posting again, I wrote you a song (tune of "Hello > Dolly,") > > Oh you're back, catman, welcome back, catman, > It's so nice to have you here where you belong > You're going strong, catman, > Still never wrong, catman, > You're still naming, you're still blaming, you're still flaming on > > I feel the room swaying, > With your words playing > One of those great inflammatory posts for all to read! > So, golly gee, listers, > Feminists, catlovers and gay misters, > Catman'll never go away > Catman'll never go away > Catman'll never go away again! > > Regards, > Harper Lou > > (Whose father really did name him after Louis Armstrong, so this parody is > not as blasphemous as it would be as if someone else had written it!) > > -----Original Message----- > From: catman [mailto:catman@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 4:31 PM > To: Louis Lynch > Cc: 'joni@smoe.org' > Subject: Re: Feminism, Civil Unions, Quyanisquatsi, Wiccans (NJC) > > Bless you. Now go and sin no more! - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:29:55 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Our Joni Photo(VLJC) Peg, I'm so glad to see you got in touch with Jim about your photo. I told you he'd be thrilled to put it up on the site as I'm sure Les would too. Hey Les, when is the gallery coming back? I have some photos taken during the TNT taping that I'd be willing to share. Let us know when it's up there. We're eager to see it. Thanks, Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:44:50 EDT From: PPeterson4@aol.com Subject: Re: POLITICS ALERT (NJC) In a message dated 7/18/00 7:56:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << I guess the blackout has been lifted by mutual listwide consent. >> Hey, as long as the subject lines are accurate, I've got my very own blackout. It's called the delete key, and I've been giving it quite a workout lately! Paul Peterson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:26:55 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: a movie i just rented (sjc) I've rented most of the good movies out this year, so now I just rent about anything to watch during the summer. I rented one last night (not that good), but it did have a few Joni-isms in the film. The movie starred Freddie Prinze Jr. and it was called: 1) "Down to You", but they never did play the song I hoped for 2) The two main characters were talking about music and Patsy Cline. She asks him "Do You Like Patsy?" and he says "Patsy, Billie, Joni, all the great female singers" 3) Again the two main characters were talking about music and she says "I have no musical talent, but that's how I found painting. You see I would paint album covers and paint myself in them" She hold up a few album covers and one of them is "Clouds", but her portrait is on the album and not Joni. I never finished watching the video, but thought it was interesting about the few Joni-isms in it. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:38:24 +0100 From: catman Subject: Mother speaks NJC As the mother of a gay son, I've seen firsthand how cruel and misguided people can be. Many letters have been sent to the Valley News concerning the homosexual menace in Vermont. I am the mother of a gay son and I've taken enough from you good people. I'm tired of your foolish rhetoric about the "homosexual agenda" and your allegations that accepting homosexuality is the same thing as advocating sex with children. You are cruel and ignorant. You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny. My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he was in the first grade. He was physically and verbally abused from first grade straight through high school because he was perceived to be gay. He never professed to be gay or had any association with anything gay, but he had the misfortune not to walk or have gestures like the other boys. He was called "fag" incessantly, starting when he was 6. In high school, while your children were doing what kids that age should be doing, mine labored over a suicide note, drafting and redrafting it to be sure his family knew how much he loved them. My sobbing 17-year-old tore the heart out of me as he choked out that he just couldn't bear to continue living any longer, that he didn't want to be gay and that he couldn't face a life with no dignity. You have the audacity to talk about protecting families and children from the homosexual menace, while you yourselves tear apart families and drive children to despair. I don't know why my son is gay, but I do know that God didn't put him, and millions like him, on this Earth to give you someone to abuse. God gave you brains so that you could think, and it's about time you started doing that. No choice At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, and you won't get to choose. Whether it is genetic or whether something occurs during a critical time of fetal development, I don't know. I can only tell you with an absolute certainty that it is inborn. If you want to tout your own morality, you'd best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into the very soul of me that nothing could ever change it. For those of you who reduce sexual orientation to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit or something that can be changed by a 10-step program, I'm puzzled. Are you saying that your own sexual orientation is nothing more than something you have chosen, that you could change it at will? If that's not the case, then why would you suggest that someone else can? A popular theme in your letters is that Vermont has been infiltrated by outsiders. Both sides of my family have lived in Vermont for generations. I am heart and soul a Vermonter, so I'll thank you to stop saying that you are speaking for "true Vermonters." Principles? You invoke the memory of the brave people who have fought on the battlefield for this great country, saying that they didn't give their lives so that the "homosexual agenda" could tear down the principles they died defending. My 83-year-old father fought in some of the most horrific battles of World War II, was wounded and awarded the Purple Heart. He shakes his head in sadness at the life his grandson has had to live. He says he fought alongside homosexuals in those battles, that they did their part and bothered no one. One of his best friends in the service was gay, and he never knew it until the end, and when he did find out, it mattered not at all. That wasn't the measure of the man. You religious folk just can't bear the thought that as my son emerges from the hell that was his childhood he might like to find a lifelong companion and have a measure of happiness. It offends your sensibilities that he should request the right to visit that companion in the hospital, to make medical decisions for him or to benefit from tax laws governing inheritance. How dare he? you say. These outrageous requests would threaten the very existence of your family, would undermine the sanctity of marriage. You use religion to abdicate your responsibility to be thinking human beings. There are vast numbers of religious people who find your attitudes repugnant. God is not for the privileged majority, and God knows my son has committed no sin. The deep-thinking author of a letter to the April 12 Valley News who lectures about homosexual sin and tells us about "those of us who have been blessed with the benefits of a religious upbringing" asks: "What ever happened to the idea of striving . . . to be better human beings than we are?" Indeed, sir, what ever happened to that? (Sharon Underwood lives in White River Junction, Vt.) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #400 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?