From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #399 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Tuesday, July 18 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 399 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Feminism (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Civil Unions as injustice NJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] re: Yvette in English [Bolvangar@aol.com] Stain imagery (was re: Yvette in English) [Bolvangar@aol.com] RE: Joni misquoted? ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Joni & Feminism [pat holden ] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [pat holden ] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] POLITICS ALERT (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] apology for post -NJC [bohodan ] Re: [RE: Jonis World View] [Lori Reason ] Re: Feminism (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] RE: Your Joni photo ["Peg Eves" ] Re: Civil Unions as injustice NJC [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Feminism (NJC) [catman ] re: joni's world view ["c Karma" ] Re:Joni's world view [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Joni's World View [susan+rick ] Hissing as a musical arc, PS [B Merrill ] Hissing as a musical arc [B Merrill ] Re: Hissing as a musical arc, PS [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Feminism (NJC) [RandyRemote ] Re:Lennon books NJC [RandyRemote ] common law marriage NJC [RandyRemote ] Re: Hissing as a musical arc, PS [B Merrill ] (NJC)My Soap Box ["Susan" ] Re: Snakes & Ladders [Catherine McKay ] Re: Feminism (VLJC) [David Gertler ] Re: Feminism (NJC) [Don Rowe ] Colors a little JC ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: (NJC)My Soap Box [catman ] Re: Colors a little JC [Mark Domyancich ] re: Yvette in English [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:30:40 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism (NJC) In a message dated 7/17/00 10:01:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark.travis@gte.net writes: << But regardless of what policies an employer has in place, there is one thing you're overlooking. If you and your girlfriend or fiancée so choose, you can get married and have all of the advantages associated with a legally sanctioned union. Travis & I can't do that. That is not a 'special right'. That is a right that many of us are being deprived of. >> I didn't overlook it; it was at the basis of my point. That things like quotas and special rights for gays create another imbalance instead of correcting the original one. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:35:51 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) In a message dated 7/17/00 11:03:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dgertler@concentric.net writes: << You're missing an obvious point. You seem to be saying that benefits extended to gay couples should also be extended to unmarried heterosexual couples. But that's a flawed analogy. If you want your fiancee or girlfriend covered, all you have to do is _marry_ her. Gay couples do not (except in Vermont) have that option. >> I didn't miss it at all. Why should we have to get married to get the same benefits you can gett without getting married. The fact that you cannot marry your partner now becomes irrelevant in light of the special status being accorded you. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:37:33 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Civil Unions as injustice NJC In a message dated 7/17/00 11:04:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << That is how you add your fiancee or girlfriend to your insurance. Gays and lesbians want the same right, to marry. They cannot have it. One state of fifty states allows civil unions, and you whine about it as being an injustice to you? >> Once again, the answer is to allow gay couples to marry, NOT give them special privileges instead. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:45:57 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: re: Yvette in English blayyl@yahoo.com wrote: <> I thought this was a great, insightful post, and I was just reminded of what it said while listening to "Yvette in English" by the chord on the word "bliss" at the end of each verse. It's an unexpected chord -- a deceptive cadence -- distant from the key of the song, as if something suddenly comes from somewhere outside the song -- somewhere heavenly, perhaps, yet the chord also creates tension and confusion in a way. So in this way I think the music too suggests both the sensual and divine actions of "bliss" in their lives. On another note, I think "Yvette in English" needs a really cheesy oom-pah-pah accordion, for that French cafe sound. We don't have to be smothered in good taste all the time. ;) - --David NP: _Turbulent Indigo_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:59:59 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Stain imagery (was re: Yvette in English) Cathy in Oregon quoted from Joni's early draft of "Yvette in English": <> This quote reminded me of something I've thought about lately listening to Joni's recent albums, that I forget if it's been discussed before: the repeated stain metaphor on _Turbulent Indigo_ -- "In the steaming stains of the Magdalene Laundries"; "I bleed -- for your perversity -- these red words that make a stain...." ("Not to Blame"); "Burgundy nocturne tips and spills/they trot along nicely in the spreading stain" ("Yvette"). Its significance is connected in my mind to the textures in the music throughout TI and (especially) TTT -- the layers of keyboards, the slides of Greg Leisz's pedal steel (on "No Apologies" for instance), the "washes" of VG8 guitar orchestra sounds, bleeding into and through one another. For example, that single high, clear note (that someone, maybe John C., described a while ago) that bleeds into the line "Love takes so much courage...." from the thick chords behind Wayne Shorter's lonely solo in "Facelift." Stains and bleeding is also such a painterly image, of course, it recalls all the painting references and imagery in her recent work (and the phrase "painting with words and music") -- "Bright colors fade away..." (from "Sunny Sunday"); "Turbulent Indigo"; "'If I were a painter,' Picasso said, 'I'd paint this girl from toe to head!'" ("Yvette"); "I'll paint pyrotechnic explosions of your autumn..." ("Love Puts on a New Face"); "I want to paint a picture Botticelli style" ("Only Joy in Town"). - --David P.S. Yesterday I went in Borders and they were playing _Both Sides Now_ all the way through. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 06:38:57 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni misquoted? yes, if i remember it well, joni said that homosexual designers were making women look more like men so that it would be easier for homosexuals to look like women. again, i want to make sure that EVERYBODY understands i'm not accusing joni of anything. it's just that i think that joni is possibly a more conservative person than it might at first seem. so please, stop the private, cowardly flaming. you know who are and you belong in the inquisition. wallyk - ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Deb Messling" Para: Enviado: Lunes 17 de Julio de 2000 23:11 Asunto: RE: Joni misquoted? > I remember an interview, circa 1978, in which Joni complained about > homosexual fashion designers who were designing ugly, masculine clothes in > an attempt to make women look foolish. Anyone remember this? I thought it > was in the the bad-hair Rolling Stone interview, but I did a keyword search > on jmdl.com and did not retrieve it. > > > Deb Messling > messling@enter.net > http://www.enter.net/~messling/ > > ~I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat. / Joni Mitchell > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:00:35 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Joni & Feminism IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/17/00 1:18:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > pholden@iprimus.ca writes: > > << and after much work and writing and research and soul searching into > feminism > and what it means to me, I will say that what I learned is to have a much > softer > approach to our brothers, the men who have also been oppressed by antiquated > systems (patriarchy, capitalism, homophobia to name a few) which hold so > many > of us hostage for who we are , what colour our skin is, what we believe > in....the list goes on. Man hating does not fit into my picture of what > feminism > is. I have grown to love my brothers even more. That said, IMHO, we still > have a > long way to go baby. > >> > > Based on your statement, I would describe you as I would myself and Joni not > as a feminist but as a humanist -- someone who seeks equality and fairness > for ALL humans, regardless of race, national origin , gender or sexual > orientation. > Any term more specific than humanist, in an opinion I think Joni shares > with me, implies that something MORE than equality, such as special favors or > privileges, is sought for that portion of humanity that person, such as a > feminist, is partial to. > > Paul I Paul, For the many people who prescribe to the philosophies of feminism, I would dare say there are just as many individual interpretations and definitions thereof. Some of us wouldnt dare proclaim to be anything remotely feminist for fear of the casting of stones upon our souls. Personally, I do not believe in the utopian dream that equality exists. And I do wonder about those special favours you mention. Mags. > > - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:11:29 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/17/00 4:33:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > myrtlmoo@ticon.net writes: > > << I hear this constantly about gay rights and don't > understand it. Many groups of people fighting for equal rights under the > law are seen as asking for "special rights" just because no one sees the > every day injustices placed on them from society as a whole (and it would > take a whole lot of special rights to ultimately come out "even"). >> > > Then attack and correct the injustices at their core; trying to even them up > with alternative advantages is doomed because it fails to place at a > disadvantage the same group that gains from the original injustices. > > << I think this stems from fear. It's like the bumper sticker says, "If we > give gay > people equal rights, then everyone will want them." >> > > In that vein, if my state allows gay couples to extend insurance and other > benefits to each other, then I should be able to add my fiancee or girlfriend > to MY insurance in the same way. > But to allow gay "civil unions" to benefit while I cannot is an example of > granting an advantage to a special group that neither corrects an injustice > or provides an "equal" status. > > Paul I and Mags responds: the privileges that straight couples benefit from as being part of the "norm" or the "mainstream" outweigh any of the political bread crumbs that gay couples are being thrown these days all in the name of fair/equal rights. When was the last time a straight couple was yelled at for holding hands, kissing, demonstrating their affection for one another in public or otherwise? And that only scratches the surface. Homophobia is so deeply embedded in our society, it becomes a piece of the 'norm'. It manifests itself in many ways. It oozes through each and every pore. In my humble opinion, it is truly sad and twisted to cast stones upon people who love each other and only want the freedom and privilege to do so in peace. Mags - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:42:54 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) In a message dated 7/18/00 7:07:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pholden@iprimus.ca writes: << and Mags responds: the privileges that straight couples benefit from as being part of the "norm" or the "mainstream" outweigh any of the political bread crumbs that gay couples are being thrown these days all in the name of fair/equal rights. When was the last time a straight couple was yelled at for holding hands, kissing, demonstrating their affection for one another in public or otherwise? And that only scratches the surface. Homophobia is so deeply embedded in our society, it becomes a piece of the 'norm'. It manifests itself in many ways. It oozes through each and every pore. In my humble opinion, it is truly sad and twisted to cast stones upon people who love each other and only want the freedom and privilege to do so in peace. >> Sorry, but I consider this neither relevant to the law nor justification for granting special privileges. If I am not casting stones, why should I not get the same benefits as everyone or anyone else? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:50:35 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: POLITICS ALERT (NJC) As of about seven working days ago there was this clear consensus to not post political subjects on the JMDL. Since then we have had three major threads Feminism, Gay marriages, and a completely off the wall Witchcraft thread. Some of the listmembers who expressed that they wish there were no political threads are actually participating. I guess the blackout has been lifted by mutual listwide consent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:51:34 -0700 (PDT) From: bohodan Subject: apology for post -NJC to jmdlers: sorry to those who read it! about the yvette in English post of mine being posted to the list several times.. a little too trigger happy..plus the server's a problem. Hope this posts once cheers __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jul 00 14:40:55 MET DST From: Lori Reason Subject: Re: [RE: Jonis World View] Hi everybody, It's great to see all these posts on spirituality & dreams, and someone else who loves Native American spirituality. I've been dying to get my hands on my books, but they're still packed in boxes in LA. :-( I'm so glad you came up with this info Kate. A great book - maybe *the* book on this topic - is titled Seven Arrows by Hyemyohsts Storm. The original is out of print, but a new version is available at Amazon.com (for $14.40). Reviews say it should be required reading in all schools to teach children how to live in peace. Can't get a better recommendation than that imo. Here's another one: Classic work that healed an entire generation Seven Arrows, the first book published in modern times about the Medicine Wheels, is now the classic volume on the topic. Written while ceremony was still illegal in the USA and the young generation was heartbroken, this courageous work by Storm brought him into the center of the whirlwind of controversary regarding the practice of Native American Spirituality. Seven Arrows is ground-breaking in many ways. It is a prime example of the oral tradition transformed into narrative prose and it is an entirely new novel form. It is classic Native American literature at its very best and is a must read for students of writing, literature, Native American Studies, and the Earth science and spiritual philosophy of the Medicine Wheels. This book has brought Hyemeyohsts Storm into the circle of truly great 20th century American writers. It has also given renewed hope to hundreds of thousands of people around the world. Joni has believed in and has been reading these kinds of books for years. Sometimes in conversation when I feel passionately about something I just blurt it out without framing it so others can understand what the heck I'm talking about. The older I get the more I do it because it is so ingrained in my way of thinking. I think that's what Joni did. She forgets the rest of the world doesn't read Native American philosophy. And just like with her music, it's hard to keep up with her, she's so far ahead of most of us. Lori in France, dreaming of black crows flying around Chaco Canyon... > Thomas Banyacya, Hopi Elder-- > "The circle with the four O's and cross within [referring to the above > figure] symbolizes the Four Corners Region (where Utah, Colorado, Arizona > and New Mexico meet). The circle represents no beginning and no end -- the > infinite Great Spirit. The Indians believe we are the Fourth World. When the > Third World was destroyed, those Indians who had listened to the prophets > were guided to places of safety underground. After the Fourth World was > created, they assembled at Four Corners and were instructed to spread out in > the four directions. Four (4) also represents the four elements in nature: > fire, water, air and earth; and the four color races of man: black, yellow, > white, and red." > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > North American Indian Prophecies > Talk Given by Lee Brown > 1986 Continental Indigenous Council > Tanana Valley Fairgrounds > Fairbanks, Alaska > > At the beginning of this cycle of time, long ago, the Great Spirit came down > and He made an appearance and He gathered the peoples of this earth together > they say on an island which is now beneath the water and He said to the > human beings, "I'm going to send you to four directions and over time I'm > going to change you to four colors, but I'm going to give you some teachings > and you will call these the Original Teachings and when you come back > together with each other you will share these so that you can live and have > peace on earth, and a great civilization will come about." > > And he said, "During the cycle of time I'm going to give each of you two > stone tablets. When I give you those stone tablets, don't cast those upon > the ground. If any of the brothers and sisters of the four directions and > the four colors cast their tablets on the ground, not only, will human > beings have a hard time, but almost the earth itself will die." > > And so he gave each of us a responsibility and we call that the > Guardianship. > > To the Indian people, the red people, he gave the Guardianship of the earth. > We were to learn during this cycle of time the teachings of the earth, the > plants that grow from the earth, the foods that you can eat, and the herbs > that are healing so that when we came back together with the other brothers > and sisters we could share this knowledge with them. Something good was to > happen on the earth. > > To the South, he gave the yellow race of people the Guardianship of the > wind. They were to learn about the sky and breathing and how to take that > within ourselves for spiritual advancement. They were to share that with is > at this time. > > To the West He gave the black race of people the Guardianship of the water. > They were to learn the teachings of the water which is the chief of the > elements, being the most humble and the most powerful. > > To the North He gave the white race of people the Guardianship of the fire. > If you look at the center of many of the things they do you will find the > fire. They say a light bulb is the white man's fire. If you look at the > center of a car you will find a spark. If you look at the center of the > airplane and the train you will find the fire. The fire consumes, and also > moves. This is why it was the white brothers and sisters who began to move > upon the face of the earth and reunite us as a human family. > > Joni-- > "If the 20th century unfolds >as I hope it does, the four major races will > begin to coerce and understand their contributions to the >greater whole; > that intellect--whitey's contribution--will be put in its proper > perspective. And > emotionality of the black race--the end they hold > up--will become an equal > to it. The clarity of the >yellow race, and the sensitivity and the depth of > the red race will all be used by all, that we'd all borrow >from one > another. That's my dream." ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:55:35 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Feminism (NJC) susan+rick wrote: > Does the U.S. not recognize what are called "common law" relationships in > Canada (and I imagine in the rest of the ex-British Empire)? It's been the > case here for years that couples living together as husband and wife get the > same benefits and privileges as legally married couples. This has been > extended to same sex couples within the last little while. And only after a 30 year battle with the Canadian government by James Egan and John Nesbit. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:52:05 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Your Joni photo Hi Jim, Just caught up to your Joni photo reply. Yes, I'll scan it and email it to you. Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: JoniMessages@aol.com [mailto:JoniMessages@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 2:26 AM > To: peves@marlboro.edu > Cc: leslie@torchsongs.com > Subject: Your Joni photo > > > Hi Peg, > > It's Jim at JoniMitchell.com. Leslie forwarded the message you > sent her about > the photo you have from 1968. I'd love to put it up on the site, > probably in > the appropriate bio section, with a credit that it's courtesy of > your photo > collection. Sounds like a wonderful photo. > > If you have access to a scanner, you could just e-mail me a scan > of it and > I'll take it from there; if you don't, you could send it to me > and I'll scan > it and send it right back to you. I worry about things getting damaged or > lost in the mail, though, and I'd hate to see that happen. > > If you have any ideas or preferences, drop me a line and we'll > get the ball > rolling. Looking forward to hearing from you. > > Best Regards > Jim > JoniMitchell.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:21:27 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Civil Unions as injustice NJC IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/17/00 11:04:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: > > << That is how you add your fiancee or girlfriend to your > insurance. Gays and lesbians want the same right, to marry. They cannot > have > it. One state of fifty states allows civil unions, and you whine about it as > being an injustice to you? >> > > Once again, the answer is to allow gay couples to marry, NOT give them > special privileges instead. Common drivel. Every piece of legislation passed or introduced in this country for domestic partnership rights or civil union status HAS included the same for heterosexuals as well. NEVER were they requested for gays only. You've been reading to much Falwall and Robertson. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:25:20 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/00 7:07:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > pholden@iprimus.ca writes: > > << and Mags responds: > > the privileges that straight couples benefit from as being part of the > "norm" or > the "mainstream" outweigh any of the political bread crumbs that gay couples > are > being thrown these days all in the name of fair/equal rights. When was the > last > time a straight couple was yelled at for holding hands, kissing, > demonstrating > their affection for one another in public or otherwise? And that only > scratches > the surface. Homophobia is so deeply embedded in our society, it becomes a > piece > of the 'norm'. It manifests itself in many ways. It oozes through each and > every > pore. In my humble opinion, it is truly sad and twisted to cast stones upon > people who love each other and only want the freedom and privilege to do so > in > peace. >> > > Sorry, but I consider this neither relevant to the law nor justification for > granting special privileges. If I am not casting stones, why should I not get > the same benefits as everyone or anyone else? > > Paul I okay Paul, I will go one more round on this one and then just let it lie. I consider this relevant inasmuch as the laws do support, perpetuate and sustain homophobia. No one is suggesting that you should not get the same privileges as anyone else Paul. My point being that gay couples are 'not' privileged nor do they receive special privleges in our society. And let me clarify, this is IMHO. Mags - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:40:39 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Feminism (NJC) Yesterday, i read a report concerning the beating up and robbing of two men. As a rsult of this one of the men died. It was reported as follows: 'so and so and his homosexual lover, so and so, were beaten up....' some media people are stupid. I think we would have understood: so and so and his lover(or partner), so and so, were beaten up....' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:07:27 GMT From: "c Karma" Subject: re: joni's world view Gosh, y'all can beat the dead horse. Just kidding, I think it's great that a small question of syntax can provoke such profound thought. And it's to the artist's credit that her admirers care enough to consider it. I think it's pretty clear that the possibility of a "coerce/coalesce" flub explains the whole thing. Haven't we all gotten tied up in our own underwear when trying to explain a heady thought to someone. Unfortunately, she had a microphone in her face at the time. Joni simply will not temper her comments to the press, and why should she? Frankly, I think she was attempting to use the opportunity to improve understanding between the races. Joni's never uttered a non-humanist thought except as pertains to the music business and certain award honors. She's no shrinking violet if she has an axe to grind, but really at this point are you going to crucify her for honesty and spontaneity? She warned you: Oh, I talk too loose. Then I talk too open and free. I pay a high price for my open talking like you do for your silent mystery. Talk to me. At very worst, this is just another tequila anaconda. CC ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:20:44 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re:Joni's world view I remember now where I heard Joni talk about all this Dreamtime and Hopis stuff; it was during her Millennium Project Interview. For those of you who never read it or care to refresh your memory, there is a transcript of the interview at Jonimitchell.com. dated 3/26/00 under "The Word:" I think it will shed some light on what she was talking about. Rose (in New Jersey) NP: John Lennon, Imagine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:29:19 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Joni's World View Lori Reason posted: > I'm so glad you came up with this info Kate. > > A great book - maybe *the* book on this topic - is titled Seven Arrows by > Hyemyohsts Storm. The original is out of print, but a new version is > available at Amazon.com (for $14.40). Reviews say it should be required > reading in all schools to teach children how to live in peace. Can't get a > better recommendation than that imo. > Joni has believed in and has been reading these kinds of books for years. > Sometimes in conversation when I feel passionately about something I just > blurt it out without framing it so others can understand what the heck I'm > talking about. The older I get the more I do it because it is so ingrained in > my way of thinking. I think that's what Joni did. She forgets the rest of > the world doesn't read Native American philosophy. And just like with her > music, it's hard to keep up with her, she's so far ahead of most of us. Hi Lori Many thanks to you and Kate for these posts which have come the closest to answering my original question when I started this thread a few days ago: What was Joni thinking when she said this? I remember that the interview she did on the web at the (so-called) start of the new millennium was largely based on her interpretation of native beliefs. This seems to fit in with what you have pointed out here. Thanks to all who participated in this discussion in such a civil and intelligent manner. Everyone said their piece, made their points, asked their questions without slagging Joni or anyone else in the process. I think the way it was handled points out how exciting this List can be. All good things Ranger Rick p.s. to Lori: Your card will be in the mail within the next few days. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:32:11 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Hissing as a musical arc, PS PS I've recently gathered that Joni has abandoned Piano. Only recently since I'm not very up on Joni as a whole, just up on Hissing (as a whole). When did this happen? Since Hissing was mostly composed at the piano & organ, this is a matter of interest for a Hissing FANatic such as I. Certainly one of the reasons I threw Hejira out of the window was because it was composed with her rhythm guitar, in a car, to the pulse of a car in flight. But then, maybe she couldn't fit her piano in the car... Well, in that case she should have made her personal Hejira (to Medina?) in a truck! Bruce PPS hmmmm, What was the destination for Joni's Hejira? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:31:17 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Hissing as a musical arc Joni announces: "This is a total work, conceived graphically, musically, lyrically and accidentally-- as a whole...." But in what regard is Hissing a musical whole? Since, with respect to its music (styles, instrumentation), it is the most disparate of all of Joni's albums. There are two frames that Joni uses-- both deliberately and "accidentally"-- to render Hissing into a total work. One is the thematic triangle that her cover presents to us, the themes of city, jungle, suburb (suburban affluence). The other is the chronology, the arc of life, that she sets before us when we listen to the songs inside, in their sequence: the passage from youth > early adulthood > middle adulthood > late (?) adulthood. (I hope to eventually get to how these two frames are integrated.) The music of Hissing functions as part of the "total work" in that it is aligned with the latter frame, the arc of life. That is, the arc of life parallels an arc of music-- which begins in a music of late adolescence, then a music appropriate to the tensions of early adulthood, then a more mature music of something like the suburban lassitude of the perpetual LA-LA afternoon, basking or baking by the pool of affluence, and finally a music of latter-day existential reflections. More precisely, the organizational pattern is: the gradual dissolution of the pulse of her songs. The beat dissipates.... We begin in the propulsive happy rhythm of "In France," the pulse of the moving car and the excited eroticized teenagers inside. This happy rhythm, the comfortable, familiar union of voice, bass, drums, etc. (which reminds us of Court and Spark) is then completely disrupted or overthrown by the curious combination of aggressive jungle rhythms and sinister chromatic melody of the Jungle Line. - -- And then we pass into a different kind of rhythm: the less cheerful pulsations of tense adulthood. The opening danceable beat is lost or eclipsed within the jazzier styles of Edith, then the still lazier, more sinister?, less propulsive Harry's House. Can we really dance to "the Boho Dance"? Well, not like we used to be able to dance "In France"! (Personally, I wish Joni had taken this further, further from this kind of lite jazzy style of "Tom Scott and the LA Express," into more complete jazz rhythm, where the beat is only implied.) The languid rhythms of Hissing (the song) mark the musical middle (centerpiece?) between the adolescence pulse and danceable groooove back there "In France," and the final closing rhythms: the waves of time, our seasons of our lives, which inevitably chase off the "sweet bird of youth," then resolving to Joni's recitation of "shadows and light," the lonely voice singing with pulseless organ. Of course, I don't know if this was a deliberate decision on Joni's part to have the beat (the pulse of life, of romance?) dissipate in this matter, or if it simply followed (accidentally?) from the decision to build Hissing upon the arc of life. In any event, if you listen to Hissing as a "total work"-- which is as she intended-- it becomes a far more impressive and powerful work. Though not a cheerful one. - -- now back to my July pool, Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:38:29 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Hissing as a musical arc, PS B Merrill wrote: > > > PPS hmmmm, What was the destination for Joni's Hejira? To be her classic recording, right behind For the Roses. Jerry ;-> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:28:18 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: POLITICS ALERT (NJC) Consensus? Amongst the 600+ listmembers? When did this happen? I don't remember voting.... Also, why does the Wiccan ("Witchcraft"-sounds scarier doesn't it?) thread get special distinction as "off the wall"? RR MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > As of about seven working days ago there was this clear consensus to not post > political subjects on the JMDL. Since then we have had three major threads > Feminism, Gay marriages, and a completely off the wall Witchcraft thread. > Some of the listmembers who expressed that they wish there were no political > threads are actually participating. I guess the blackout has been lifted by > mutual listwide consent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:31:16 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Feminism (NJC) Maybe we should just eliminate special privelidges for married people...I don't get the logic of it anyway.... RR Deb Messling wrote: > I agree completely; it's unfair to allow "civil unions" for gays and not > for heterosexuals. So, to combat that unfairness, we should allow gay > people to get married. That is fair and equal! > > At 07:01 PM 7/17/00 -0700, you wrote: > > > But to allow gay "civil unions" to benefit while I cannot is an > >example of > > > granting an advantage to a special group that neither corrects an > >injustice > > > or provides an "equal" status. > > Deb Messling > messling@enter.net > http://www.enter.net/~messling/ > > ~I like cats. They give the home a heartbeat. / Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:44:25 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re:Lennon books NJC Ms. Information asked me to set the record straight. John Lennon had two books published during his lifetime. Both "In His Own Write" (1964) and "A Spaniard In the Works" (1965) had his photograph on the cover. "Spaniard" had a pic of him in a Spanish style hat holding a big wrench-a "spanner" to Brits. In 1986 Yoko release another book of his writings and drawings called "Skywriting By Word of Mouth" which did feature a colorized Lennon drawing on the cover. May 1999 saw a small book "Real Love-The Drawings For Sean" which also featured a colorized Lennon drawing on it's cover. So now you know. RR john low wrote: > pat, > You asked if John Lennon had done the artwork on the cover of his book > of poems. I guess that would be "In His Own Write" published about > 1964. I don't have a copy but I seem to remember that it had his > drawings throughout as well as on the cover. I also have a vague idea > that he published a similar little book a year or so later. Also, Rose > (in New Jersey) told me that Yoko Ono published a book of JL's > drawings after his death titled "Real Love: The Drawings For Sean". > (Thanks Rose!) > Cheers, > John (in Sydney). > > __________________________________________________________________ > Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:55:14 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: common law marriage NJC According to 1040.com: Common-Law Marriage States: Some states recognize a common- law marriage originated and approved in another state, but will not recognize common-law marriage originating in their state. Check the regulations for each state for specific rules. Currently, the following states recognize common-law marriages: Alabama Colorado District of Columbia Idaho Iowa Kansas Montana Ohio Oklahoma Pennsylvania Rhode Island South Carolina Texas Kakki wrote: > > Recognition of common law marriages has always been decided at the state > level in the U.S. Many states used to recognize a union of a certain number > of years as a common law marriage. In California it used tobe seven years. > But California and many other states abandoned those laws a few years back. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:58:02 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: Hissing as a musical arc, PS >> PPS hmmmm, What was the destination for Joni's Hejira? >To be her classic recording, >right behind For the Roses. > >Jerry ;-> Nice one! I like it, Jerry. Bruco PS Even if frisbee arc of my pristine vinyl copy of Joni's Hejira was to sail out the window... falling into the hands of a Hejira FANatic such as you, I hoped. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:30:23 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: (NJC)My Soap Box Paul wrote: > In that vein, if my state allows gay couples to extend insurance and > other benefits to each other, then I should be able to add my fiancee or > girlfriend to MY insurance in the same way. > Paul, I must disagree here. You have the option of legally getting married, we as lesbian/gay folk do NOT! If that was a reality and sanctioned lawfully, then I would agree with you. But in many cases, large metropolitan areas, encased in hick states try to offer the option to partners in lieu of the antiquated and inhuman state & federal laws. I for one would not be in the financial mess I am after a 6 year relationship had the option been available to me. So as most laws stand now I am at a disadvantage. As Kerry also mentioned: > Many groups of people fighting for equal rights under the > law are seen as asking for "special rights" just because no one sees > the > every day injustices placed on them from society as a whole. > Thank you Kerry. > I happen to consider myself a humanist, I also just happen to be an > athiest. My belief in humanism comes from the labeling and > compartmentalizing of people based on race, sexual orientation, > religion, sex and whatever. I am an athiest for completely different > reasons. I would not label people who are athiest as immoral, tis far > better than being a hypocrite and living a lie. I treat everyone with > compassion and love and wish all the best. I do not hide behind a > cross trying to eliminate others and judge their sins over mine. I > think the bible as a book of parables and lessons to live by, just as > I inerpret the prophet Jesus. Remember his relationship and > exceptence of Mary Magdeline. > Finally, I for one do not believe Joni was properly quoted or > interpreted on the gay issue - aren't most of her good friends gay > men? Peace to All Susan > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:26:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > I was watching a campy Ken Russell movie on the > Sci-Fi Channel > yesterday called 'The Lair of the White Worm.' > During one scene of > the movie, the seductive priestess of the snake god > is playing a board > game with one of her victims which is a variation of > 'Chutes & > Ladders.' Instead of chutes the board had - you > guessed it - snakes. > The name of the game, naturally, was 'Snakes and > Ladders.' > > This movie came out in 1988. CMIARS came out in > 1988. Now the > question is: Did Russell take the 'Snakes & > Ladders' name from Joni > or did Joni get it from Russell? Or is this just > another one of those > quirky, cosmic coincidences? I've always known of this game as "Snakes and Ladders". It's only recently that I heard anyone refer to it as "Chutes and ladders". I wonder if it started out as snakes, but people thought it would scare kids too much (yecch - snakes!) and they changed it (?) Or maybe it depends on where you live (?) Anyhow, it's always been "Snakes and ladders" to me. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:58:33 -0400 From: David Gertler Subject: Re: Feminism (VLJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/17/00 11:03:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > dgertler@concentric.net writes: > > << > You're missing an obvious point. You seem to be saying that benefits > extended to gay > couples should also be extended to unmarried heterosexual couples. But > that's a flawed > analogy. If you want your fiancee or girlfriend covered, all you have to do > is _marry_ > her. Gay couples do not (except in Vermont) have that option. >> > > I didn't miss it at all. Why should we have to get married to get the same > benefits you can gett without getting married. [...] The only reason gay couples can get these benefits without getting married is that they CAN'T get married (apart from Vermont's "civil union"). If you let gay couples get married, you might then be justified in denying benefits to unmarried couples. _That_ would be equal rights. (Why do I suspect that you know this but that you are just trolling?) Dave Gertler ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:11:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Feminism (NJC) I know I should hit the DELETE key on this, but I do feel like pointing out a few things: - --- RandyRemote wrote: > Maybe we should just eliminate special privelidges > for married > people... Like what? The privilege of paying higher income taxes? The privilege of losing at *least* 50% of your stuff when your significant other takes a hike -- in most states, regardless of who's at fault? The virtual inability to obtain or hold credit in your own name? Trust me, marriage (as a legal and political institution) is no one-way ticket to easy street ... just an exchange of one set of inequities for another. So be careful what you ask for -- lest you receive it. Don Rowe ===== "I do not object to others hiding from history. What I object to are others hiding history from ME." - -- Shelby Foote __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:20:59 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Colors a little JC Catman, I was thinking along the same colors as peach, except its not exactly peach. I saw the most striking color combo in a Joni photo but I can't remember where it was. Probably somewhere on the Joni website- and I know I saw it fairly recently. S She was in a brillian blue standing in front of an adobe-like wall that was earthy-orangey in color. There might have been blue flowers in the photo too. I wanted to paint my house that color, with the blue trim after seeing that picture. Does anyone recall where to find that photo? ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com www.cdbaby.com/katebennett www.amazon.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic…the album grows more intriguing with repeated listening" All Music Guide "lyrically, it's a work of art overall" Indie-Music.com ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:46:48 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: (NJC)My Soap Box > I would not label people who are athiest as immoral, tis far > > better than being a hypocrite and living a lie. I treat everyone with > > compassion and love and wish all the best. I do not hide behind a > > cross trying to eliminate others and judge their sins over mine. I > > think the bible as a book of parables and lessons to live by, just as > > I inerpret the prophet Jesus. Remember his relationship and > > exceptence of Mary Magdeline. > although not an athiest, i agree with the above. Some of the most spiritually inclined people I have met were either athiest or had no religion. I have never come across anyone who follows a religion who exuded love and peace from their being. Seems to me they are too interested in being right and judging to have any time for bringing love and peace. Those that 'have it' really do have this aura of serenity about them and from my experience, a belief in God is not required in order to exude this quality. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:55:31 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Colors a little JC You might be thinking of the picture of her standing by a wall holding a Christmas tree above her, with a big smile and what looked like a bluish cape thing. It was in the Roland magazine interview a few years ago. I love that photo. NP-Dave & Tim, 3/14/99 At 1:20 PM -0700 7/18/00, Kate Bennett wrote: >Catman, I was thinking along the same colors as peach, except its not >exactly peach. I saw the most striking color combo in a Joni photo but I >can't remember where it was. Probably somewhere on the Joni website- and I >know I saw it fairly recently. S > >She was in a brillian blue standing in front of an adobe-like wall that was >earthy-orangey in color. There might have been blue flowers in the photo >too. I wanted to paint my house that color, with the blue trim after seeing >that picture. > >Does anyone recall where to find that photo? - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:01:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re: Yvette in English - --- Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > > There is no Yvette. > > For this song, we are free to bring whatever > interpretation we feel is > appropriate. For me, it's very similar to > understanding a dream. > "Please have this little bit of instant bliss". > > This line is even richer if you include the context > just before it: > > "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this > little bit of instant > bliss.' " > > Okay, here's my two cent opinion. I'd like to > begin earlier in the song. > When we first meet Yvette, she's > "skittering sideways like a cat" then later, she's > "fumbling with a foreign tongue (language)". Interesting. I saw it as the *guy* fumbling with the foreign tongue. He can't speak very good French, he's sitting in this bistro in Paris and in comes this good-looking, but maybe klutzy, French *babe* who needs a match to light her cigarette - She asks him, "Avez-vous une allumette?" (Got a light?) Maybe she's a hooker(?) Maybe she's so nervous and skittery because she's been on a bender, but she's spotted this guy as possibly someone in need of her services. Or maybe she's just some gorgeous French babe looking for a light, but I'm going for the hooker angle (she curses "Merde!" as the cigarette ash falls). But this guy finds her really sexy. Maybe it's Crosby himself, some gone-to-seed middle-aged American dude who hasn't had a young woman come on to him in a while. So, in addition to not being very good with the language ("He's fumbling with her foreign tongue/ Reaching for words and drawing blanks/ A loud mouth is stricken deaf and dumb"), he's dumbstruck by her approaching *him* of all people. This is a guy who's maybe used to chatting up women but, between language and the fact that this babe is *actually talking - to him*, he turns into a slack-jawed yokel, probably saying "B'duh... b'duh" a lot. I figure she next speaks to him in English, recognizing that il ne parle pas francais. I don't think she actually *says* "Please have this little bit of instant bliss" but that's what he *hears* because now she's talking *to him* in English! Instant bliss - this babe is talking to MOI, the guy suffering from male menopause, middle-aged angst! (P.S. I like this one too!) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #399 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?