From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #395 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Sunday, July 16 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 395 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: better late than never ["Kakki" ] Re: Corrections????? NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: A rugby message for happy Hell!! Totally NJC. ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Joni Sings the Blues ["P. Henry" ] Re: Joni's World View ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Re: Subject: Musician Artists NJC ["intagliata" ] RE: Joni's World View ["P. Henry" ] Re: wiccan/gamma rays njc [susan+rick ] joni's viewpoints [Kate ] Re: joni's viewpoints [catman ] The Healing Power of Joni's Music [Merk54@aol.com] Joni's World View [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: joni's viewpoints ["Kakki" ] Mitchell family at Saskatoon... [John Downes ] Re: Grace of My Heart (tiny bit o' JC) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Joni Sings the Blues [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Yvette in English [Jason Maloney ] Re: Grace of My Heart (tiny bit o' JC) [Jason Maloney ] Who wants to touch me? (NJC) [michael w yarbrough ] Saltimbanco (njc) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: joni's viewpoints [catman ] Re: Snakes & Ladders [catman ] politics & race (NJC) ["Duane J. Corpis" ] re: Yvette in English ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: NJC - Ronee, Nashville and Altman [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Snakes & Ladders ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Re: joni's viewpoints ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Re: Saltimbanco (njc) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Snakes & Ladders ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Yvette in English [Jason Maloney ] RE: wiccan/gamma rays njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] re: Yvette in English [bohodan ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:12:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: better late than never Kate of the North - It was just wonderful reading your report! I'm so happy to hear that your son was able to meet and chat with Joni and that so many there were kind and helpful to you. I did feel bad that you had to slog through those annoying rain puddles but it seemed well worth it when you reached your "destination" ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:39:31 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Corrections????? NJC Steve Polifka asked: > Second, is A&M studios in Hollywood? If it is, I don't feel >like I need to touch it. If it isn't, then I will correct it. > I'm almost positive that A&M is in Hollywood... Hey Steve, you have probably received the answer to this but since you're asking about my 'hood', I'll toss my note on the pile. The original A&M studios are indeed right in the heart of Hollywood on Sunset Blvd. Last year A&M was acquired by Universal Music Group (formerly MCA) when they acquired Polygram and several other labels. A&M is still a label owned by Universal but I believe the A&M "record company" is now run at UMC's new record company headquarters near Santa Monica. The last I knew they were still keeping some of the actual recording studio operations at the old Hollywood location. To be very technical, Hollywood is not its own city but is actually in the city of Los Angeles. But that is true of several "towns" or areas (Westwood, Brentwood, Bel Air, East L.A., San Pedro, and particularly large parts of the San Fernando Valley) spread out across the LA area. West Hollywood is its own city, however, and some of these other remote areas, now gerrymandered into city of LA. are fighting for their own "cityhood". Kakki Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:24:15 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: A rugby message for happy Hell!! Totally NJC. John wrote: >It was a great game of rugby between two traditional rivals and was >not won until (literally) the last moment. With Australia ahead by 2 >points and only a minute or so to go, I nearly choked on my toast and >tea when big Jona Lomu brushed off a couple of Aussie defenders and >crossed for the winning try. If only all rugby matches could be as >exciting as this! >Good on you, Hell! I hope you are enjoying the celebrations. Words do not describe the emotions I felt when Jonah crossed the line for the winning try - I have never, EVER seen a game of rugby like it in my life, and I'm sure you're the same. And at the end of the day, yes NZ did win (and I'm feeling incredibly proud about it!) but it was (as you said) a great game of rugby, and incredibly exciting, no matter who won! I won't go into too much detail about my celebrations, for fear of seriously embarrassing myself, but I will say that they involved a large quantity of beer, wine and bourbon, a spa pool, a dozen friends, and virtually no clothing! And I'm the only one who has a completely clear memory of all the nights activities, for which I am profoundly grateful! I am however, feeling a little jaded this evening, since I didn't make it to bed until 5.30am this morning! But I'm determined to stay up, since tonight at midnight there's a lunar eclipse, a meteor shower, and a possibility of the Southern Lights (although I'm probably too far north for that), which should be pretty exciting! Thanks for your congratulations, but the Wallabies deserve congratulations too - they're a "hell" of a rugby team, and you know that's high praise from me! Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:35:36 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Musician Artists NJC kate ventured: >John Lennon was an artist, mostly sketches I think...> it's been SO many years, but didn't he do the artwork on the cover of his book of poems? anyone? pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:54:47 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Joni Sings the Blues cassy wrote: >For the life of me I cannot recall where I read that Joni was sued over the song "Furry Sings the Blues" that she and Neil had visited with Furry on a trip to Memphis and that while they were there, Furry had been playing his harmonica and that Joni and Neil had used those licks in the recorded release, ostensibly to pay him "homage." I have a recollection that Joni was sued for royalties. Does anyone else recall this? Do you know where it was originally reported?> it sounds likely... this is 'from the horses mouth' on JMDL at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/770224rs.cfm "The way I feel " says Furry "is that your name is proper only to you, and when you use it you should get results from it. She shouldn't have used my name in no way, shape, form or faction without consultin' me 'bout it first. The woman came over here and I treated her right, just like I does everybody that comes over. She wanted to hear 'bout the old days, said it was for her own personal self, and I told it to her like it was, gave her straight oil from the can." He stares at the surrealistic photo on the Hejira cover. "But then she goes and puts it all down on a record, using my name and not giving me nothing! I can't stop nobody from talkie' 'bout Beale Street, 'cause the street belongs to everybody. But when she says 'Furry,' well that belongs to me!" (Though Joni Mitchell had no response to Furry's comments, her manager, Elliot Roberts, responded: "All she said about him was, 'Furry sings the blues' the rest is about the neighborhood. She doesn't even mention his last name. She really enjoyed meeting him, and wrote about her impressions of the meeting, He did tell her that he didn't like her, but we can't pay him royalties for that. I don't pay royalties to everybody who says they don't like me. I'd go broke.")" pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:09:03 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: Joni's World View Hey, what about us Brown Races? I'm sure Azeem and I will have something to say to Joni.. :-) The Zoob - who is really more cafe au lait as I am mixed race! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:09:16 -0300 From: "intagliata" Subject: Re: Subject: Musician Artists NJC Kurt Cobain, too. Mariana - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Bennett" To: Sent: Viernes, 14 de Julio de 2000 05:25 a.m. Subject: Subject: Musician Artists NJC > John Lennon was an artist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:40:20 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Mingus' "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" (LJC) A PS on the Mingus recommendations: His "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" is thought by some to be his masterpiece. I don't know about that, but it is a brilliant and very odd (obsessive) piece. It is like nothing else, in jazz or any other music. Highly recommended. There is also the posthumous colossal suite, name escapes me, arranged and realized by Gunther Schuller, but I've only heard it once. As a jazz composer, he's up there at the tippy top, with Ellington. I'm delighted to learn from Scott that the Mingus Dynasty picked up on some of those tunes he did with Joni. (Even if I agree with those grumblers who feel that she should not have received a jazz Grammy.) Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:53:45 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Joni's world view (kinda long?) *slipping on asbestos overalls* ;o) it seems providential to me that at the same time we are fiddling with this ("don't go there") discussion on what may or may not have been meant by Joni's comments on 'the four great races', someone is suddenly struck with the good sense to motion to the effect that the world, and the many, MANY non-American listers we have do not revolve around the US or her politics. I am thoroughly American but I have lived more than half my 50yrs outside the continent, about 4 in Europe and the rest in the Pacific Rim, and I always kind of bite my tongue a little when, in the context of this international forum, someone will start going off on the values of 'racial equality' and 'discrimination' and the 'rights' of various groups, even though these are values I, myself, espouse. there may be a few countries, outside the US, whose politics and world view are more progressive than others, or at least *what Americans would view as such*, but on the whole, Americans should realize that these values are *not* shared by the rest of the world, and that, in fact, going back to the 'melting pot' ideal of integration, for the most part *all* other countries find these ideals abrasive and think we're a little nuts specifically for embracing them! there is no concept of equality to be doled out to the non-Japanese person who decides to make Japan his home. he is merely a foreigner who will never gain acceptance nor be given any 'rights' because he is different and that's that! no, I'm not picking on Japan, it's the same in Germany and France and Morocco and Switzerland and you name it. if I were to go simply by my American upbringing I would characterize these nationalist attitudes as 'bad' and condemn them but I have been around the globe a few times and I realize that in their respective countries their ways work just fine for them and I would hope that some of the people from those countries would be able to look at me with my 'racial equality' ideals and say the same. (instead of thinking I'm a nutcase for wanting races to mix) after all, the US is only 224yrs old and their ways of dealing with people who are different are thousands of years old in some cases and backed up by generations of traditions handed down. almost all I've ever encountered, for example have folklore that informs the members of that nationality that they were the first people and all other people came from them and down deep, most of them believe that religiously from the time they are children. in the nationalist view, all other races and cultures are truly inferior. this may be a hard concept for many Americans to accept as we have an entirely different culture base and ideal. please understand, I am not attempting to stir up but, as an American, to say I heartily agree with the idea that we must stop and realize that this is an international environment and what Americans assume is 'right' and 'wrong', though no one wants to argue the point or try to say that this way or that is 'better', only different, may be considered chauvinistic by many. in this light, on the whole. I find the attitude of many non-Americans to be patient and tolerant, which is good to a point, but, knowing what I know, I can't help but realize that, when we really get going on a subject like this, that many are either just keeping their mouth shut and thinking 'that's just how they are' ala 'The Ugly American' or else patronizing us. patriotism is different than nationalism in this sense. we think our country is great but we don't do so at the expense of other countries because we can't! we are *made* from other countries! it is therefore difficult for many Americans to realize that nationalism almost requires this derogatory perspective of those who are different. I know there is much I don't understand and I'm sure I will piss somebody off and get raked over the coals for saying what I have but this is what I see. thanks to a very generous lister I have recently seen a video of Joni being interviewed on Canadian tv and it was really very interesting. she described herself as being 'bi-national' but followed that up by stating emphatically that she lives in BC... and you could easily see that she was showing respect to her culture, assuring them that she is a part. I know she has also been very outspoken but she mentioned this two or three times making sure the record is clear that she is Canadian and keeps a residence there. I guess my point is that Joni is Canadian. she may have lived in CA for so many years but when she was a little girl... when she was learning who she is... she was learning that she is a Canadian girl from the prairie and she has her place and her cast culturally and socially and she always will. when she came to the US I'm sure she embraced many of our ideals and I know she has demonstrated her concern for and championed many of them but I think is a mistake to forget her background or to view her as someone who would naturally agree with any and all American ideals, not that I think she is tradition bound, I don't, but I just don't think I am culturally equipped to comprehend her. personally I would not even begin to try to venture a guess as to what she means regarding the 'four great races', I'll leave that to you smart guys. I would want a full explanation straight from Joni herself and even then I'd probably have a bunch of questions. ;o) pat ps: (former civil rights activist, btw) NP: Borderline Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 06:33:33 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Joni's World View matt asked: "But, was she saying that she disapproved of contemporary culture's downfall, or approved of it?" I know where I'd place MY bets... Joni is an artist... ever heard of the dark ages? ;o) pat NP: S&L from HOSL demo Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:25:04 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: wiccan/gamma rays njc Wally Kairuz posted: > 1- do you know where i can find information on the wiccan tradition? This website is a listing of hundreds of pagan/wiccan sites, some of which should suit your needs: http://www.witchvox.net/links/webusa_s.html Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:10:53 -0600 From: Kate Subject: joni's viewpoints One thing I have heard Joni say, which disappointed me and lowered my opinion of her a notch, was when she performed at the Edmonton Folk Festival about six years ago. She said "I am not a feminist." Well Excuse Me! What is a feminist? Someone who believes in social, political, and economic equality for both sexes. (it's in the damn dictionary.)What kind of person doesn't support that? One who thinks feminism is all about man-bashing and bra-burning, I'd guess. Kate ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:12:40 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints Hi kate-this is one example of why I don't iodolise anyone anymore. Not that i ever really have but I did have a thing for carly and Joni in the past. TRill it dawn4ed on me they wre only human. And what if I got to kbnow too much aboutt hem and didn't like them? That would not be so good. Or what if they held views I found abhorrent? I enjoy the music much much more not knowing too much about either of them. That way they can be just what my imagination says they are. Just imagine if your absolute favourite artist turns out to be some horrendous bigot, or a nasty piece of work?(before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I am not suggesting this is so of either Carly or Joni!) Far better not to know! Kate wrote: > One thing I have heard Joni say, which disappointed me and > lowered my opinion of her a notch, was when she performed at > the Edmonton Folk Festival about six years ago. She said "I > am not a feminist." Well Excuse Me! What is a feminist? > Someone who believes in social, political, and economic > equality for both sexes. (it's in the damn dictionary.)What > kind of person doesn't support that? One who thinks feminism > is all about man-bashing and bra-burning, I'd guess. > > Kate - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:39:29 EDT From: Merk54@aol.com Subject: The Healing Power of Joni's Music Angshuman Dasgupta wrote the following: << Not one song goes by without me thinking that the world would be a much poorer place without her. >> That just about says it all. I am sincerely sorry to hear about all of your losses. As someone who has personally experienced the healing powers of Joni's work, I can very much relate to the impact it can have. When I am struggling with life's many detours, I draw strength from it's wisdom, inspiration from it's imagery, and hope from it's beauty. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:01:08 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Joni's World View Astrology also takes into account that there are four main elements, fire, earth, air and water. I also did a little research about Aboriginal spirituality. This is what I found. Aboriginal religion or spirituality is "The Dreaming," the spirit of the land. They respected their land in a sacred way. They believed they were part of their land. They also believed that they were always here and that they come from the land and that their ancestors watch over us today to ensure that laws are not broken. Just a little food for thought. Rose (in New Jersey) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:50:16 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints Kate wrote: > One thing I have heard Joni say, which disappointed me and > lowered my opinion of her a notch, was when she performed >at the Edmonton Folk Festival about six years ago. She said >"I am not a feminist." Well Excuse Me! What is a feminist? > Someone who believes in social, political, and economic > equality for both sexes. (it's in the damn dictionary.)What > kind of person doesn't support that? One who thinks >feminism is all about man-bashing and bra-burning, I'd >guess. Many have wondered about this. On the surface it seems very ironic since so much of Joni's life and music is a living example of this dictionary definition. My feeling is that her remarks have to be put into a larger perspective, especially when they seem so at odd with eveything else we know about her as a person. I've also always felt she just doesn't want to be bound by any one specific "label" because they can be limiting. A point I made long ago on the list was that if she had labeled as a feminist at the start of the modern movement 30 years ago, it is likely that she would have been pigeonholed by the public, the press and the record biz. Once she was pigeonholed, it is likely that far fewer people would have listened to her and any messages she wanted to convey in her songs. It may have been self-defeating for her. Looking beyond whether or not the "label" itself represents a good ideal, the concept of categorization, in general, can be limiting and not progressive. There are a number of articles on the JMDL site where Joni discusses why she does not want to be labeled a feminist. In some of the articles, I think she is taken out of context but many other give a clearer perspective on her remarks. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:20:40 -0600 From: John Downes Subject: Mitchell family at Saskatoon... I was just reading over some of the reports from Saskatoon. Coyote Rick mentions cringing when hearing the speakers welcoming Joni and the Mitchell family. At first I though they were making a mistake in referring to Bill and Myrtle Anderson as "the Mitchell family", but upon reflection, I am 90% sure that the family who was there as representatives of the descendants of "Papa" Mendel were also named Mitchell. Isn't that a strange "coinky-dink". John in Edmonton ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:31:34 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Grace of My Heart (tiny bit o' JC) PPeterson4@aol.com wrote: >>Watching the DVD of Grace of My Heart, which is one of my favorite movies - >> ... I also miss the Kristen Vigaro version of God Give My >>Strength - why couldn't they have included it along with the Elvis >>Costello version? Does anyone know if the Kristen Vigaro version is >>available anywhere? Yes, it's on a somewhat goofy compilation on Rhino called "Love Scene." It's a collection of disparate tracks from movies, juxtaposing Kristen Vigard's version of God Give Me Strength with songs performed by Aretha Franklin, Gin Blossoms, Percy Sledge, Jimmy Durante, X, Rickie Lee Jones, P.M. Dawn, Lisa Loeb, etc. Strange company, but I bought it solely for the Vigard version, which I feel is vastly superior to Costello's, who is the completely wrong singer for the tunes he wrote with Bacharach. As much as I love those songs, Costello is not the "singer's singer" needed for Bacharach's beautiful but treacherous melodies ... you can hear him straining and working too hard when what is needed is ease and grace, which Vigard provides with aplomb ... she sings the shit out of it. On a few phrases her voice sounds like a funkier, less polished Karen Carpenter. And, even though I do love Bacharach's lushly orchestrated version, the solo piano Vigard version gave me gooseflesh. >>The final song in the film, "A Boat on the Sea", which is co-written >>by Larry Klein is such a Joni homage, with her piano style and >>harmonies from the LOTC and Blue period, that I wonder if in fact >>it's Joni playing piano on the track. Probably not, but it must have >>been fun for Klein to produce something like it given his >>relationship to Joni. Did anyone ever hear anything about the >>production of the song? I dug this song a lot, and it does sound like vintage Joni; Klein really copped some archetypal Joni-isms, circa the For the Roses era. But it's not Joni on piano. Looking at the list of musicians on the soundtrack CD (it's not specified who played on what song), it could be one of several: most likel y Jim Cox or Mike Melvoin, but I wonder if it could even be Klein. Speaking of Klein copping Joni-isms, it seems to me that his arrangement of Man From Mars is vintage Court and Spark, right down to the swooning pedal steel guitar ending chord. I love this movie, and the music, and Illeana Douglas is outstanding in the title role. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:38:53 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Sings the Blues In a message dated 7/16/00 7:02:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << cassy wrote: >For the life of me I cannot recall where I read that Joni was sued over the song "Furry Sings the Blues" that she and Neil had visited with Furry on a trip to Memphis and that while they were there, Furry had been playing his harmonica and that Joni and Neil had used those licks in the recorded release, ostensibly to pay him "homage." I have a recollection that Joni was sued for royalties. Does anyone else recall this? Do you know where it was originally reported?> it sounds likely... this is 'from the horses mouth' on JMDL at: >> What IS likely is that Furry threatened to sue, made the comments alleging Joni used his name improperly and dropped the whole thing once he contacted an attorney, who most likely would have told Furry he would be wasting his time, effort and money to pursue such a ridiculous lawsuit. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:41:52 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Yvette in English Ray & Cathy wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to what Yvette > means when she says, "Please have this little bit of instant bliss". > This is such a pretty song, but I just don't get it. > > Cathy in Oregon Hi, Well, nobody has answered this one yet, so here's my take. I would imagine the line refers to smoking, and in particular the cigarette Yvette has just lit, which she then offers to the man in the song. She regards taking a puff as a piece of instant bliss. The track is my third favourite Joni song, after My Secret Place and Hejira. But please, let's not start the smoking thread again!!!!! Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:48:34 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Grace of My Heart (tiny bit o' JC) Fred, Thanks for sharing this info...I was so disappointed the Vigard version wasn't included on the GoMH soundtrack. It also gave me goosebumps, absolutely stunning. Costello's take is okay, but I agree with your comments. I will have to search for this CD now, I simply MUST have that version on CD! :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:56:32 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints In a message dated 7/16/00 12:11:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catman@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: << Just imagine if your absolute favourite artist turns out to be some horrendous bigot, or a nasty piece of work?(before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I am not suggesting this is so of either Carly or Joni!) Far better not to know! >> As Joni has said about reading music, "Ignorance is bliss," eh? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:54:50 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Mitchell family at Saskatoon... John writes: << Coyote Rick mentions cringing when hearing the speakers welcoming Joni and the Mitchell family. At first I though they were making a mistake in referring to Bill and Myrtle Anderson as "the Mitchell family", but upon reflection, I am 90% sure that the family who was there as representatives of the descendants of "Papa" Mendel were also named Mitchell. >> Who knows???? Maybe he was talking about you folks from the JMDL :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:11:15 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's world view (kinda long?) Pat, You make some very interesting points that I did not consider. When I first read these remarks from her, I thought, "eesch, how archaic" but in a larger world view they may not be archaic at all. I haven't lived in other countries but I've worked for a number of foreign corporations and also worked on lawsuits involving them. Some have come and set up business in the U.S. either not knowing about the equal/civil rights laws here, or know them and deliberately choose to ignore them. I've personally seen examples of officially sanctioned and systemized discrimination in some of these cases. Even as the courts are taking these businesses to task, their principals are still confounded as to why they are in trouble. Under some of the current U.S. federal laws or common employment policies, Joni's remarks alone, no matter how well-intentioned, if stated in the work place, could get her into trouble. I think a lot of Americans, myself included, at times tend to assume the whole world is reading from the same page. The tendency to assume that can be viewed as both part of our arrogance and our charm ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:00:38 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Who wants to touch me? (NJC) Nanny-nanny-boo-boo, I (along with erstwhile JMDLer Bob Hanna) saw Patti Smith and Richard Thompson perform on the same stage AT THE SAME TIME yesterday. I reiterate, who wants to touch me? ;-) The details: Richard added beautiful solo guitar fills to Patti's "Wing." One among many great moments of my fifth Patti performance. She's so effing cool!!! - --Michael NP: David Bowie, _Lodger_ - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's hard to be a diamond in a rhinestone world." - --Dolly Parton, "Tennessee Homesick Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:35:27 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Snakes & Ladders I was watching a campy Ken Russell movie on the Sci-Fi Channel yesterday called 'The Lair of the White Worm.' During one scene of the movie, the seductive priestess of the snake god is playing a board game with one of her victims which is a variation of 'Chutes & Ladders.' Instead of chutes the board had - you guessed it - snakes. The name of the game, naturally, was 'Snakes and Ladders.' This movie came out in 1988. CMIARS came out in 1988. Now the question is: Did Russell take the 'Snakes & Ladders' name from Joni or did Joni get it from Russell? Or is this just another one of those quirky, cosmic coincidences? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:06:09 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Saltimbanco (njc) Yesterday afternoon Travis & I attended a performance of a magical concoction of color, spectacle, comedy, acrobatics & aerial wonders called 'Saltimbanco' as performed by the seemingly super-human members of Canada's Cirque du Soleil. I was dazzled, tickled and continually amazed at the feats performed by this remarkable troupe of acrobats, clowns, jugglers & aerialists. If you've never seen one of their performances, either live or in one of several PBS specials they've done, you really should. Find one of their videos or if you're fortunate enough to live in a place that their tour stops and can afford it, spend the money & go. It is well worth it. Their shows combine elements of circus, gymnastics, dance & performance art. The costumes & lights are eye-filling & dazzling. I was continually amazed at the seemingly superhuman strength & agility displayed by these performers. Here is a wonderful example of how the strength & power of the human body can be used to create something beautiful rather than brutal & destructive. The grace, fluidity & seeming effortlessness of these performances is a thing of wonder. The finale featured 4 aerialists, each with a bungee attached to each hip, suspended near the top of the tent. With the aid of trapezes that dropped in & out at the top of the rigging, these flyers performed an exquisite & daring aerial ballet that took my breath away and (odd as it seems - even to me) brought tears to my eyes. Maybe I was imagining the incredible thrill of that kind of freedom of mobility & wishing I could do it myself or maybe it was just the grace & beauty of it. Maybe it was all of that & more. Maybe I'm just a big ol' cry baby. I felt like a kid through most of the show. Travis got to be part of the show. One of the performers does a comic mime routine (using a head mic to produce sound effects kinda like Bobby McFerrin) between the more dramatic acts. This performer uses the audience as part of the act. At one point, pin spots were picking out people in the audience that the performer would throw an imaginary ball to. Travis was spotted. Maybe the performer was inspired by Travis's height (6' 4") because when Travis tossed the 'ball' back, he or she (I still don't know which - the performer was dressed & made up to look like a young kid - very androgynous) made a noise into the mic of a ball traveling a great distance and looked way up over his or her head as if Travis had way overshot the mark. Cirque du Soleil uses no animals. The production is entirely human performers. They all are uniquely and enormously skilled & talented. If you want to feel like a kid again and renew your sense of awe & wonder, see these people perform if you get the chance. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:25:02 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/16/00 12:11:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > catman@tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk writes: > > << Just imagine if your absolute favourite artist turns out to be some > horrendous bigot, or a nasty piece of work?(before anyone gets their > knickers in a twist, I am not suggesting this is so of either Carly or > Joni!) > Far better not to know! >> > > As Joni has said about reading music, "Ignorance is bliss," eh? sometimes, yes! > > > Paul I - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:28:53 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders Snakes and Ladders is a game very popular here in britain. i played it as a child. it invloves a board and dice. the board is numbered squares with snakes and ladders on it. land on a snake and you slide backwards, land on a ladder and you climb upwards. The person who gets to the last square first is the winner. Mark or Travis wrote: > I was watching a campy Ken Russell movie on the Sci-Fi Channel > yesterday called 'The Lair of the White Worm.' During one scene of > the movie, the seductive priestess of the snake god is playing a board > game with one of her victims which is a variation of 'Chutes & > Ladders.' Instead of chutes the board had - you guessed it - snakes. > The name of the game, naturally, was 'Snakes and Ladders.' > > This movie came out in 1988. CMIARS came out in 1988. Now the > question is: Did Russell take the 'Snakes & Ladders' name from Joni > or did Joni get it from Russell? Or is this just another one of those > quirky, cosmic coincidences? > > Mark in Seattle - -- Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? http://www.geocities.com/tantra_apso/index.html http://www.tantra.fsbusiness.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:32:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Duane J. Corpis" Subject: politics & race (NJC) Some people have suggested that we avoid this topic, but I personally think it's too important to avoid. And since it's not a random topic, but one that Joni herself has discussed, I think it ought to be fair game. >Joni has never been a racist - she celebrates all of our differences - >white, black, Amer.Indian, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Straight, Gay, Male >and Female. How does she/we perceive these differences, though? That's the question. Other responses on this list have already asserted that "race" is "true" because it's biological, because there are particular phenotypic expressions that are reducible to genes. Well, that's the simple high-school biology class definition of race, but there are plenty of scientists who would note that this easy definition is also a useless one. Within any "racial" category, there are an enormous range of phenotypic expressions, so much so that we might not be able to tell just from outward appearances exactly what "race" a person belongs to. Or, take for instance the claim that members of the "black" race are more likely to suffer from sickle cell anemia. The claim is largely true of African Americans because, during the slave trade, slave abductions largely took place in particular areas of Africa. Not all Africans have sickle cell anemia, yet basic medical knowledge, like the kind I learned in grade school, tells us that this is a disease with a "racial" bias. Furthermore, "race" means something different from one culture to another. I appreciate the people who have interpreted Joni's comments to fit within a Native American tradition. Certainly, Native American ideas about race are different from western, scientific views, or the views of, say, Germans (I have lived in Germany for 3 years, so I think I can speak with a minimum of authority here -- Germans do not view "race" the same way Americans do), or, say, Brazilians. Every nation, culture, and society has had different historical legacies and traditions that radically shape and differentiate views of "race," which suggests to me that race isn't biological, but something else -- something that we imagine, based on our cultural assumptions. The question then becomes, How do our ways of imagining "race" (or trying to avoid imagining "race" or try to re-think our received assumptions about "race") shape our lives and the lives of others, from the level of our personal, everyday interactions to the level of public policy? But this shouldn't lead to the oblivion of relativism. Cultures are not different because of something arbitrary, nor are they different because they are essentially so, as if marked by some collective, genetic destiny. Cultures are in fact different because of history, BUT Joni's comments don't talk about history. They talk about some transcendent, essential quality in the four races. As a "half-breed", I guess I'm wondering where I fit in. And I think that's the real problem with Joni's analysis. It's reductive and simplistic. Not all Europeans are rational -- do you think that the 30 Years War, WWI, WWII were based on a history and legacy of "reason"? Likewise, the other characterizations of the Black, Yellow, and Red races are also reductive. Her intentions may not have been racist, but what if she had said, "Women are by nature soft, maternal, emotional" and that "Men are rational and strong" and that we should therefore unite the best traits of women and men. I'm sure many of you would be scratching your heads, like me and several of the other posters who are confused or disappointed by Joni's comments on race. Just like gender roles, race, racial identities, and racial "stereotypes" are NOT inherent or natural. >What are we doing here debating her appreciation of each group's unique >gifts to our planet? And, PLEASE don't abuse this wonderful discussion >list to trash the First Lady- there are plenty of other websites where >hatred and cynicism towards Hillary may be welcome, but not here >(onlyJMDL). As far as the first lady goes, I live in NYC, and I will vote for her, but she's not above criticism. Just my thoughts, Duane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:08:55 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: re: Yvette in English Hi Cathy, First off Cathy, almost all lyric examination is interpretative. This song, we learned in interviews, started as phrases in David Crosby's head. He sent them to Joni and asked her to help him with it. She threw out much of it and kept some phrases. There is no Yvette. For this song, we are free to bring whatever interpretation we feel is appropriate. For me, it's very similar to understanding a dream. Sometimes, this process of unraveling the metaphors takes place automatically for many people, as they listen to the story and chord changes. Sometimes the meanings are deepened by hearing the story (ies) behind the songs. This is why Joni's interviews (many are available on the tape trees) are so enriching for metaphor-enjoyers like me. Sometimes, the meanings of metaphors shift, like when Joni revisited "Both Sides Now" as a middle-aged woman. "Please have this little bit of instant bliss". This line is even richer if you include the context just before it: "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this little bit of instant bliss.' " So, what does the line evoke in you, Cathy? Head scratching. Sorry, you already said that. :) You want to hear about some OTHER opinions. Okay, here's my two cent opinion. I'd like to begin earlier in the song. When we first meet Yvette, she's "skittering sideways like a cat" then later, she's "fumbling with a foreign tongue (language)". She's having an imperfect day when "Her cigarette burns her fingertip, As it falls like fireworks She curses it." All of these examples show that she's bravely struggling. Imperfect. Damaged even. Then we get to your line, the PUNCHLINE of the song in my opinion (IMO). "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this little bit of instant bliss.' " She's struggling to deliver a little bit of perfection. bliss is perfect joy. When ever a word in a lyric has you stumped, fall back on its dictionary definition. Songwriters love words (right Kate?). Generally when they pick a rare, underused word like "bliss", its because it conveys _exactly_ what they are trying to say. So, falling back on the dictionary definition is actually the most direct route to their meaning! [Let's simply this discussion of word choice by excluding sarcasm because there is little or none in "Yvette".] So, in one sentence, Yvette is struggling with lots of earthly challenges because she has a noble, higher goal in mind; she want to deliver a small tidbit of perfect... joy. One of the great mysteries of Life to me, is why is so interesting to listen to "Yvette In English" and so boring to read a one sentence summary of "Yvette In English"???? Cathy in Oregon wrote: I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me as to what Yvette means when she says, "Please have this little bit of instant bliss". All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu PS. God bless and thanks for asking this question. I love this song! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:58:48 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: NJC - Ronee, Nashville and Altman Thanks whoever recommended the Premier retro piece about Nashville. Altman said something about not wanting the music to be too good in the film. I must say he failed on that count. And Ronee Blakley's tune Tapedeck was so sleek a country tune that Hank Williams himself would have been proud of it. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:29:39 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders The game to me has always been 'snakes and ladders'. I have never heard of chutes and ladders until you mentioned it here just now. Is it an American thing to call it chutes and ladders? Perhaps in a Canadian world it is called snakes and ladders too... Jamie Zoob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark or Travis To: joni mitchell Sent: 16 July 2000 21:35 Subject: Snakes & Ladders > I was watching a campy Ken Russell movie on the Sci-Fi Channel > yesterday called 'The Lair of the White Worm.' During one scene of > the movie, the seductive priestess of the snake god is playing a board > game with one of her victims which is a variation of 'Chutes & > Ladders.' Instead of chutes the board had - you guessed it - snakes. > The name of the game, naturally, was 'Snakes and Ladders.' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:41:08 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: joni's viewpoints Hi Kate I must stick up for Our Joan on this point. In an interview she held in London round about the same time she said to 'The Late Show' presenter (I think this in one of the video trees) Tracy McCloud that she isn't a feminist as the feminists she has known have been man-haters, far too apartheid, and that she has always been in the company of men since the beginning. I can see what she means in that. She means she has never allied herself to the more extreme views of feminism and feminists because she has never felt like hating men, despite being a woman in a male-dominated industry. Also, Bob Dylan thinks that Joni's "Kinda like a man".... All the best Jamie Zoob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kate To: Sent: 16 July 2000 16:10 Subject: joni's viewpoints > One thing I have heard Joni say, which disappointed me and > lowered my opinion of her a notch, was when she performed at > the Edmonton Folk Festival about six years ago. She said "I > am not a feminist." Well Excuse Me! What is a feminist? > Someone who believes in social, political, and economic > equality for both sexes. (it's in the damn dictionary.)What > kind of person doesn't support that? One who thinks feminism > is all about man-bashing and bra-burning, I'd guess. > > Kate > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:16:57 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Saltimbanco (njc) Their shows combine elements of circus, gymnastics, dance & > performance art. I forgot to include music in this list. There is a band that plays during the performance and one of the troupe sings in an ethereal, beautiful soprano voice. I think the lyrics are in French but I don't think it's important that the audience understands them. Rather they create an almost subliminal ambience. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:19:29 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders > The game to me has always been 'snakes and ladders'. I have never heard of > chutes and ladders until you mentioned it here just now. Is it an American > thing to call it chutes and ladders? Perhaps in a Canadian world it is > called snakes and ladders too... > The one I grew up with was Chutes & Ladders. Maybe Americans found the snakes to be a bit too scary for young kiddies. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:22:02 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Yvette in English Well, there you go...seems I was way off-base! This proves my oft-felt gut feeling that I just don't (or can't) ever truly get under the skin of a song in the way the likes of Jim (and many others) are able to. I see incisive, wonderfully articulated analyses like this quite a lot on mailing lists, and frankly they are beyond my own realm of capability. It's just as well not everyone is like me! For what it's worth, the ambience of the song and that gorgeous woozy keyboard sound that gloses over the whole track send shivers up my spine every time I listen to it. I'm hearing the lyrics, or what I've always assumed them to infer, at little more than face-value. The picture it's always conjured up in my mind is perhaps a lazy one : guy takes walk near the Parisian river (possibly in the early evening), and meets this strange yet captivating (young) woman. Who smokes. She makes a hash of lighthing her ciggie, swears, and the offers the lit cigarette to the man..."here, have this little bit of instant bliss". As I said, lazy, but it's worked for me every time :-) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:45:03 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: wiccan/gamma rays njc thank you, ranger! i've ordered a book that mark D. recommended and i'll visit the site right away. wallyk, a pagan trapped in the body of a catholic? > This website is a listing of hundreds of pagan/wiccan sites, some of which > should suit your needs: http://www.witchvox.net/links/webusa_s.html > > Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:10:25 -0700 (PDT) From: bohodan Subject: re: Yvette in English - --- Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > "Sweetly in English, she says, 'Please have this > little bit of instant > bliss.' " > She's struggling to deliver a little bit of > perfection. bliss is perfect > joy. Hi I think it's interesting this choice of the word bliss, and what you say.. you think of heavenly bliss, joy, celestial bodies etc, and then at the same time in the song there are the undertones of earthly desire and sexual tension "uninsulated wires laid bare" the "feline" images, heat and "cigarette burning". So maybe with "Bliss" "Ecstasy", both sensual and divine aspects are touched on in this song maybe?... And there's pretty intoxicating atmosphere. The music has a really moody feel: + "burgundy", "black water and the amber lights"... ~ Well it always seemed to me this way: so bracket this and the above with an "IMHO" : )~ "If I were a painter Picasso said, I'd paint this girl from toe to head"... If a painter were to make a portrait of "Yvette", it would be his Version of her, and the things he sees in her: his representation, a translation of sorts. (And the song is so much about boundaries and language.) So likewise throughout the song the guy makes an interpretation of Yvette -all she says and does.. We don't get to see her as she is, but rather only through his eyes, and in his mind and to his way of thinking her gestures are some kind of sexual invitation. "PLEASE have this" IMO isn't so much what she literally says, it's more like a way of summing how he sees her. How she connects for him across the despite their different tongues across borders of language. ( pheww - does that sound a tad 'pretentious'? :-) Well, "Borderline" is the song before it on the album... :) I notice Joni phrases it not as "Yvette sweetly says in English" but "Yvette in English saying", so that it's rendered more along the lines of : "Yvette seems to be Saying to him in his language; or-from-his-perspective etc". Seems to me to be all about an encounter and this particular viewer's interpretation of the situation and how he reads the signals he sees, right. "She sticks in his mind like that". We don't learn that much about her: she travels into the story, then disappears and he's left with this image in his head and that line repeating. << Well there's my rookie 2 cents/p/fr/ worth (or whatever currency... : ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #395 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?