From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #357 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Tuesday, June 27 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 357 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: catherine's post on canada NJC [Siresorrow@aol.com] a joni rarity? [Michael Bird ] SJC [John Fahr ] Drama on the JMDL (NJC) ["Steve Polifka" ] Please don't Hold Back (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: a joni rarity? [Mark Domyancich ] Re: UK jonifest CDs [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC [michael w yarbrough ] answer to: a joni rarity? ["Michael Bird" ] Re: catherine's post on canada NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: a joni rarity? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: answer to: a joni rarity? NJC now [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Covers [leslie@torchsongs.com] Re: a joni rarity? [Brian Gross ] Re: a joni rarity? ["Kakki" ] Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. ["P. Henry" ] Re: a joni rarity? [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Joni Quote (unattributed) at the American Museum Planetarium [PPeterson4@] Jimi recording of Joni? [Michael Paz ] NJC - Wayne Shorter [Matthew Snyder ] Incorrect (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: Covers [FMYFL@aol.com] Wedding Bells (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Nick Hornby book with Joni references ["Victor Johnson" ] NJC - Eminem & the Stones [Murphycopy@aol.com] Games when we are older NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Interview with the Walecki (NJC) ["Kakki" ] what day is today???? NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: catherine's post on canada NJC ["Wally Kairuz" Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC Randy, as a gay man in my late 20's, I'm TIRED of exposing hatemongers, in relation to myself and the rest of the world. Oh, if I had the time. Stupid people eventually quiet down, because they can't keep it up. The fact that this thread has gone on for so long is silly to me. I am sorry for my part in keeping it going. I did think some interesting dialogue would come out of it, but it mostly has been outrage of various levels on both sides. Boring! Boring! Anyway, enjoy...hope it all works out. Reuben >I'm sorry, but this is too nonchalant for me. We need to point out >and expose hatemongers, not look the other way and hope it passes. >RR ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:44:15 +0100 From: "ALCHEMYMULTIMEDIA.COM" Subject: UK jonifest CDs Hello folks One last reminder to anyone who would like to have a copy of the January UK jonifest recording - I have finally managed to complete the production of the CD. Now that it's ready, anyone who would like a copy, please send me 5.50 Sterling (cheque if you are in the UK, cash in Sterling if not), and give me your full address. I will post you your CD by return. The CDs make a wonderful souvenir of the evening we had, with Jamie Zubairi, Marian Russell and Chris Marshall playing all evening for us. Raffaele did some very professional artwork for us. It's a double CD in a 'Brilliant' (single CD) case, and the price includes postage and packing. Please be assured that I am making no money out of this. The price reflects the cost of production only. atb, Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:03:26 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: catherine's post on canada NJC In a message dated 6/26/00 5:39:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << now i can laugh instead of YELL LIKE A F_ING RAGING LOON, though i still feel very angry and i might lash out at any moment. >> well.....now.....i'm in my italian woman mode and i think i might just have to say something about our paul's strong words... "Americans do not CARE whether our peacekeeping forces are welcome; they are there to do a necessary job, dammit, regardless of whether they are welcome by the locals" hey paul....8======>~~~ you! dammit! sheesh! ok wally, go ahead, lash... pat np. both sides now..miles of aisles version - recently given by a very good friend, and leaving me wondering how it is i have lived with out this disky for so many years. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:07:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Bird Subject: a joni rarity? I happened upon an odd website that catalogues compilations released by Warner/Reprise in the 60's and 70's. I found one called "THE 1969 WARNER/REPRISE RECORD SHOW (PRO 336, 1969)" Subtitled "Son of Songbook." Alongside contributions by Neil Young, Arlo Guthrie, Grateful Dead and others, the following song titles are listed after Joni's name: My American Skirt The Fiddle and the Drum Spoony's Wonderful Adventure Is this something all you Masters of Joni Rarities already know about? Have I hit upon a discovery, or is this old news? ... here's the address, for anyone curious about the site: http://www.dustbury.com/music/wbloss.html Obscurely yours, Nickel Chief ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:10:26 -0700 (PDT) From: John Fahr Subject: SJC Does anyone have a copy of the " An All-Star Tribute To Joni Mitchell" 0n TNT that I could get ahold of? TNT says they don't intend to show it again or release any tapes. Thank you. jcfahr@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:27:54 -0500 From: "Steve Polifka" Subject: Drama on the JMDL (NJC) Hey Catherine! YOU GO GIRL!!! (lol) Thank you for that! What great humour (and class)... TTM! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:31:18 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Please don't Hold Back (NJC) Dear Mr. Deste- As usual you seem to have some difficulty expressing yourself. I think this must be due to a possible retentive nature on your part. On behalf of the list we would respectfully like you to try and loosen up a bit and not hold back and tell us HOW YOU REALLY FEEL! Thank you. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:56:54 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: a joni rarity? I remember seeing promo ads for these albums along with the LPs of Joni's albums. I don't have any of them but would love to hear them. Is this actually a songbook? At 6:07 PM -0400 6/26/00, Michael Bird wrote: >I happened upon an odd website that catalogues compilations released >by Warner/Reprise in the 60's and 70's. I found one called "THE >1969 WARNER/REPRISE RECORD SHOW (PRO 336, 1969)" >Subtitled "Son of Songbook." Alongside contributions by Neil Young, >Arlo Guthrie, Grateful Dead and others, the following song titles >are listed after Joni's name: > >My American Skirt >The Fiddle and the Drum >Spoony's Wonderful Adventure > >Is this something all you Masters of Joni Rarities already know >about? Have I hit upon a discovery, or is this old news? ... > >here's the address, for anyone curious about the site: >http://www.dustbury.com/music/wbloss.html > >Obscurely yours, >Nickel Chief - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ "Close it yourself, shitty!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:58:21 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: UK jonifest CDs << One last reminder to anyone who would like to have a copy of the January UK jonifest recording - I have finally managed to complete the production of the CD. >> Martin, thanks for all your hard work on this project, I'm sure it will be a grand listen. I'm looking forward to hearing mine when I get them from Raffi! (Hint, Hint :~D) And I'll be glad to make CD copies for anybody stateside, if that makes anybody's life any easier...I'll post when I get the set. Bob NP: "Help Me", Oklahoma City, '79 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:00:47 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Reuben Bell wrote: > The fact that this thread has gone on for so long is silly to me. I don't think the topic is silly at all, as it touches on some very fundamental and interesting issues. The level of discussion, however, has indeed been silly at times. As far as I can tell, three big contentions have been made: 1) There is some necessary relationship between an art's morality and its quality. People have suggested a couple different forms of this argument, with some suggesting that there is a beyond-the-pale limit beyond which any work becomes immoral, therefore bad. Others have suggested that all art has a duty to express humans' "higher nature" (whatever that might be), and any art without such an aim is of low quality. 2) Some immoral art, particularly that which represents violence, is dangerous and demands a response of some sort, whether that be legal or social censorship, or vigorous protest. 3) Tying the first two together is the contention that art is generally of lower moral quality now than it used to be. If you accept premise 1), that means art is now of generally lower quality. If you accept premise 2), that means it is more dangerous. and related to all of these is 4) Eminem's work is unambiguously and uniquely violent, homophobic and misogynist. It is the prime example of 3), is of poor quality because of 1) and dangerous because of 2). I involved myself in this thread because I reject each of these contentions at least partially. NOT BECAUSE I THINK HOMOPHOBIA, VIOLENCE AND MISOGYNY ARE OK, RATIONALIZABLE, PERMISSIBLE, ETC. In my second post on the topic, I made clear my hatred of homophobia, including Eminem's. The second, related reason I involved myself is that people in general, and particularly on this list, hold knee-jerk prejudices against hip-hop. These prejudices have skewed discussions about artistic merit, morality, and danger before on this list, and they have done so again in this instance in my opinion. So, to keep this discussion from being silly, I ask you: what is the relationship between morality and artistic quality? Why? How do we deal with changing definitions of morality over time if that is the case? The second premise has been better addressed, as it is closer to the hearts of the many parents on the list. But what really is the relationship between imagery and action? And what is the best response? As a state, as a society, as a culture? Should we or should we not contextualize imagery within the context of the artist and the history of art when dealing with this question? The third premise is the one I reject most completely. I do not buy one bit that the art of yesteryear is more moral, less homophobic, less misogynist, or even less violent than that of today. It is especially not so if you take the appropriately long view of history. And I think that Eminem's work is more ambiguous on all of these topics than has been suggested. I believe he can be read with irony that does not completely vitiate the homophobia, violence and misogyny that is in his work, but that at least complicates it. It is thus my belief that we should protest those readings that promote these elements. And, as I pointed out with no response, almost every piece I've seen written on him has done just that. Including mine. What no one, including myself, has addressed is what they *like* about Eminem's work. Because many of you are unfamiliar with, or prejudiced against, hip-hop, perhaps you do not see anything to admire. One point of entry to any rap work is to listen to the voice as a percussive instrument. Eminem's syllables alternately hit with and against the beat with facility and freshness throughout entire songs. Billie Holiday and Miles Davis became critical faves for doing similar things. His use of rhythm is outstanding IMO, and is one reason I see him as incredibly talented. If there were a necessary relationship between talent and longevity in the music biz, I believe he would be around for a while for this and many other reasons. I do not believe I have resorted to mere rationalization. If it seems I have, perhaps either I have written or some have read with less care than necessary. I do believe that these topics are interesting, engaging, and much larger than Eminem, thus worthy of continued discussion. - --Michael NP: Nina Simone, _I Loves You Porgy_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:03:30 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: a joni rarity? << My American Skirt The Fiddle and the Drum Spoony's Wonderful Adventure Is this something all you Masters of Joni Rarities already know about? Have I hit upon a discovery, or is this old news? ... >> Thanks Nick! Yes, sad but true, this gets put in the old news dept. "My American Skirt" is actually a spoken intro to Fiddle and the Drum and is about 30 seconds long. "Spoony's Wonderful Adventure" is also a little story about Ian & Sylvia's son, whom they called "Mr. Spoons". It's also about half a minute in length. Both of these bits are available on the Joni covers Boxset Volume 2. They were donated to the cause by Kakki... However, the original record would be somewhat of a rarity if you're into that sort of thing... Bob NP: Amelia from same ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:04:01 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Why Eminem/Kids . (md) I have found this to be a very interesting thread. One of the most interesting threads in fact in some time. The reason is its so intertwined with so many other things. Freedom of speech. Art Music. etc etc. Also because it has really forced me to think about whats right and wrong and how our society and culture change, and or what can be done about such things as M&M. Recently another lister and I have been discussing the Rolling Stones Song, Brown Sugar. His question was how did this song skate through Al Sharptons and Jessie Jacksons filter, with its preposterously disgusting lyrics. Admittedly it was some time ago before Jessie and Al became aware that they could profit from raising hell about such things. That having been said the question is "How did we get here". How did we get to where people like M&M say things like they do. After a great deal of reflection and discussion with many friends and others whose opinion I respect I asked hem the following question. "What event or person is most responsible for the decline in the current perceived decline of civility in our Culture, or has it NOT declined and its only our imagination that it has. If your answer is that it has then when did this begin". I asked 15 people. 8 men and 7 women. 10 whites. 5 non-whites. The discussions lasted some time because this was something that many had on their mind apparrently and before I asked it I had no idea HOW much this IS on everyones mind. In an unbelievable turn of events there was one name that came up 6 times. When the first person mentioned this name I was non plussed. After awhile though it amazed me more and more. The name. Muhammad Ali. The event. 1968. The name: Before Cassius Clay beat Sonny Liston something called "sportsmanship" prevailed. Jim Brown crossed the goal line and simply dropped the ball. Jackie Robinson and Mays and Aaron hit a homerun and rounded the bases and went to the dugout quietly. Boxers left the ring (usually after seeing if their KOd opponent was O.K). Ali brought to our culture a thing that later became known as "trash talking". It was deemed OK as long as he could "back it up". ie if he said he would knock out his opponent in 5 rounds he could bray to the moon, call him self "the greatest" with no authoritative corroberation, and call his opponent human scum on television as long as he knocked out the guy in the round he predicted. Ali of course made a living "backing it up" but the genie was out of the bottle as far as the culture was concerned. the problem was that as more and more athletes took example from Ali fewer and fewer of them were able to "back it up" but there was no implied price for not doing so. And so we are now stuck with an entire generation of cultural icons dissing everyone and everything and there is no cost or price for being wrong. They dont have to be right about anything. They dont have to have truth or facts or anything on their side. It has become de facto a part of our culture. Riskless venom and invective. The event: 1968: When the Abby Hoffman group stormed the Demo Convention in 1968 it was as if to say we will trash the very symbol of Democracy, the political convention to nominate the President. Not to necessarily oppose the candidate but to oppose the system and trash it in the process. On national TV. By doing this at this event was to give gravity to the ofttimes spoken objective of overturning the powers of cultural authority at the heart of the system. Such obvious disrespect for the "system" implied a disdain for and irrelevance of any other part of the system. Viet Nam Demonstrations followed soon after in massive numbers. I fully realize that many will take exception to this admittedly brief synopsis. But I feel there's a great deal of thruth to these consclusions. Before Ali and 1968 it occurred to me that things were absolutely different. Culture wide and culturewise everything from expectations to general rules of life were different. However, for sure, one can not compare Lenny Bruce and his works and his admirers in scale to what Ali unleashed. I had to agree with the premise of how Ali and his visible actions had to influence far more than Bruce did. I also remember '68 as being a year after which nothing was ever the same. Recalling that sports and sporting events are daily reminders of the human interaction we all experience except it is televised. Today bank robbers give each other "high fives" after murdering bank guards (as they did in San Francisco). Elderly citizens with canes and walkers wear "running shoes and warm ups". Sports DOMINATES our culture. Finally I recalled the '68 Olympics and John Carlos and Tommy Smith raising the fisted gloves in Mexico City. This wasnt a political convention. An institution (The Olympics) was trashed and dissed for all the world to see. Is it any wonder that it has come to this, with the example that was set by the parents. Todays middle aged adults. Now that we can see how long it takes for the time between implantation gestation and fruition, it makes me wonder what seeds we are planting today and what fruit we will reap tomorrow. If the "protest songs" of yesterday have resulted in the M&Ms of today. The activities at Woodstock in '69 versus what went down at Woodstock 98. keep in mind that they made a four hour movie about the '69 event but they had a video blackout on the news because they couldnt show much of what happened at Woodstock '98. Maybe they should have. Too bad they told Tipper to stuff it. Too bad she did. Maybe by tolerating (if not celebrating) Brown Sugar, we got M&M. Extrapolate the toleration and defence of Clinton's Presidency for instance and what do you get 20 years from now. I shudder to think. Now be advised Im not going to debate this. thats not why I posted it. Flamers can imitate the Rolling Stone posters all they want. the only reason for posting this was to ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:30:35 -0400 From: Gary Zack Subject: Re: a joni rarity? Hi there, I have that particular album. "My American Skirt" and "Spoony's Wonderful Adventure" are very short little intros that Joni does, no singing, only talking. If I remember correctly, "The Fiddle and The Drum" is the same cut that appears on "Clouds." Regards, Gary (portea man) n.p. Captain for Dark Mornings - Laura Nyro Michael Bird wrote: > > I happened upon an odd website that catalogues compilations released by Warner/Reprise in the 60's and 70's. I found one called "THE 1969 WARNER/REPRISE RECORD SHOW (PRO 336, 1969)" > Subtitled "Son of Songbook." Alongside contributions by Neil Young, Arlo Guthrie, Grateful Dead and others, the following song titles are listed after Joni's name: > > My American Skirt > The Fiddle and the Drum > Spoony's Wonderful Adventure > > Is this something all you Masters of Joni Rarities already know about? Have I hit upon a discovery, or is this old news? ... > > here's the address, for anyone curious about the site: http://www.dustbury.com/music/wbloss.html > > Obscurely yours, > Nickel Chief ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:22:11 -0500 From: "Michael Bird" Subject: answer to: a joni rarity? Bob wrote: > Thanks Nick! Yes, sad but true, this gets put in the old news dept. "My > American Skirt" is actually a spoken intro to Fiddle and the Drum and is > about 30 seconds long. "Spoony's Wonderful Adventure" is also a little story > about Ian & Sylvia's son, whom they called "Mr. Spoons". It's also about half > a minute in length. Thanks, Bob and Gary, for the new-to-me info ... Mark asked: > Is this actually a songbook? Nope, it's a double-disc album. More trivia/info available on that website: >>http://www.dustbury.com/music/wbloss.html Nickel Chief NP: Talking Heads, "Making Flippy Floppy." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:05:56 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: catherine's post on canada NJC > pat > np. both sides now..miles of aisles version - recently given by a very good > friend, and leaving me wondering how it is i have lived with out this disky > for so many years. Ooo, Pat! I love Miles of Aisles! It has some of my favorite versions of some of my favorite Joni songs on it. A lot of them I had never heard before I heard them on Miles of Aisles. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:30:21 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC America History 2.0 Marcel: A couple of points. To identify Mohammed Ali as the downfall of American sports standards and culture in general is rather far-fetched, IMHO. If I were remember things that shook up this country in the 60s I would think of the Kennedy assassinations, King assassination, the murder of Viola Liuzzo, James Reed, the five Sunday School students blown up in church, Bull Conner, George Wallace in the college door, the murder of the three civil rights workers in Philadelphia, Mississippi, Lester Maddox and his pick axes, the murder of Medger Evers... I think these things shook up society and culture a bit more than the two bouts Ali (then Clay) had with Liston... and if you ever come to Chicago, I will show you where the convention was held at the now torn down International Amphitheater, about 45th and Halsted, and where Grant Park and the other locations of protests associated with the Chicago Democratic convention in 1968 are. The anti war protesters were never within five miles of the convention, and had no intention of going there, so your speaking of "storming the convention" is absurd. I think the decline of American society happened in 1856 when Congressman Preston Brooks took a cane to US Senator Sumner on the floor of the Senate and left Sumner a cripple. Carl Sandberg reports that other supporters of Brooks did nothing to help Sumner, thinking "Let him suffer and die - it would be a blessing to the country." Of course, Sumner was a radical abolitionist which is why he was attacked. Sumner barely survived and spent years in a wheel chair. Oh, the good old days were fairly rotten before the Liston-Clay fights... Or was the decline when Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton had their duel? Or maybe as the Book of Ecclesiastes says, there is nothing new under the sun and what has been will be again and what is now will not be remembered but what was will be and is again. Violence and sin are as old as human nature and it never got "worse" especially when any date is arbitrarily picked for whatever reason to say that everything declined since then. Actually the decline of American society happened on 12 October 1492 with the capture of the first Carib by Columbus... or was it with the Aztecs... or maybe when those damn immigrants came across the land bridge between Asia and the Americas... and the Clay-Liston fights... but Marcel, actually all the bad things that you cite happened after Richard Nixon became vice president, and thus Nixon can be blamed for everything!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or not. Any date will do... because humanity's treatment of itself is usually very brutal. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:29:54 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: a joni rarity? << If I remember correctly, "The Fiddle and The Drum" is the same cut that appears on "Clouds." >> That's right, and I thought it was very funny, kinda like a bait & switch - she intro's the song live, then you can hear an audible click, then you hear the album track. That's why I didn't include it on the Covers collection, just the spoken bits. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:33:34 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: answer to: a joni rarity? NJC now << Nope, it's a double-disc album. More trivia/info available on that website: >> Warner Bros. did a whole series of those "loss leader" double-disc samplers, combining a host of diverse artists like Zappa, America, Ella Fitzgerald...I've got a couple of them, I know. You could get them for $2 by sending off a coupon found on the inner sleeve of a WB record. Thanks for the memory of that, Nick! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:56:39 -0700 (PDT) From: leslie@torchsongs.com Subject: Covers Driving home in gridlock today listening to the cheese covers disc for the first time. The combination of exhaust, gorgonzola and frustration had me thinking, "What if Vince Mendoza orchestrated an album of duets between Jim Nabors and Claudine Longet?" Then I tried to imagine just how many "artists" have covered "Both Sides Now." According to Walter Scott's Personality Parade (in the Sunday Parade magazine" : Question: Of all the pop songs ever written, which has been the most recorded? Answer: If you believe John Edward Hasse, an authority at the Smithsonian Institution, it's "Star Dust," by Hoagy Carmichael and Mitchell Parish with more than 1500 recorded versions. But the Guinness Book of World Records says it's Lennon and McCartney's "Yesterday," with 2500 versions. I wonder how we can find out exactly how many versions exist of BSN? Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:03:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: a joni rarity? - --- Mark Domyancich wrote: > I remember seeing promo ads for these albums along with the LPs of > Joni's albums. I don't have any of them but would love to hear them. > > Is this actually a songbook? No. It's a 2-record set. I found a copy in the used record shop down the street from Julie Webb's house, the day of the FIRST JoniFest in April 98. Jimi is here too. And the Dead, and David Blue also. Our Covermeister, Bob Muller has put these 3 nippets on the Collecions and Covers set. Make sure you get yourself one. take care, Brian who is headed to Beaumont TX tomorrow Michael Bird wrote: > >I happened upon an odd website that catalogues compilations released > >by Warner/Reprise in the 60's and 70's. I found one called "THE > >1969 WARNER/REPRISE RECORD SHOW (PRO 336, 1969)" > >Subtitled "Son of Songbook." Alongside contributions by Neil Young, > >Arlo Guthrie, Grateful Dead and others, the following song titles > >are listed after Joni's name: > > > >My American Skirt > >The Fiddle and the Drum > >Spoony's Wonderful Adventure > >http://www.dustbury.com/music/wbloss.html ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:06:22 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: a joni rarity? > No. It's a 2-record set. I found a copy in the used record >shop down the street from Julie Webb's house, the day of >the FIRST JoniFest in April 98. Jimi is here too. And the >Dead, and David Blue also. Wow, Brian, I remember you and some others coming back from that store laden down with bags of choice Joni vinyl but didn't know that was one of them. I got mine off eBay and there are usually quite a good supply of them available all the time. The key is to search the words Warner Reprise Record, etc. rather than Joni Mitchell. Although if one searches for Joni in the descriptions, they may find it that way, too. This album set is really a great find for all the other artists included on it. Specially if one recalls the 60s music with fondness ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:45:01 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. michael wrote: >Catherine wrote: >> They were playing background music for the big game, which seemed almost like a gang war without the knives>> but then wrote: >> They behaved themselves well enough and started playing and they seemed to be just there to play basketball.>> Clearly I'm missing something. I don't understand what sort of good behavior would suggest any similarity to a gang war. The only connection that might come to mind is the saddeningly obvious racist one, which I will assume was not what you intended. - --Michael, "rationalizer" of free speech> hi michael, no rationalization needed. I think you are correct on two counts, the first being that it is unlikely that Catherine would see things through racist colored glasses and the second being that yes, clearly you are missing something, IMO. while I can understand how you could interpret her words thus, if you look closely she was giving a narritive account which took in a period of time, hence, there is not conflict between the two statements: first they were doing this and then they were doing that... ie: things changed... simple. anyway, that's the way I read it, FWIW. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:51:12 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: a joni rarity? In a message dated 6/26/00 6:14:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mbirdny@earthlink.net writes: << My American Skirt The Fiddle and the Drum Spoony's Wonderful Adventure Is this something all you Masters of Joni Rarities already know about? Have I hit upon a discovery, or is this old news? ... >> Yes, it is old news. Both "My American Skirt" and "Spony's Wonderful Adventure" are stories she tells before playing songs; they are not songs themselves. Paul I "Goin' on the roooooaaadd." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:52:00 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: SJC In a message dated 6/26/00 6:15:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jcfahr@yahoo.com writes: << Does anyone have a copy of the " An All-Star Tribute To Joni Mitchell" 0n TNT that I could get ahold of? TNT says they don't intend to show it again or release any tapes. Thank you. jcfahr@yahoo.com >> Such a statement, if true, still would not abdicate their copyright to the program. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:51:56 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Interview with the Walecki (NJC) John (my VG-8/Parker playing bro wrote: "I am flattered that you would ask me to do the interview. Fred Walecki is a good man with great heart and spirit. As much as I would like to be a part of this, there are two better options. One, Fred's wealth of musical knowledge would be best tapped if he were interviewed by someone with a stong background in music. In which case someone like say, Michael Paz would make a superb choice!" John- Thank you so much for your voye of confidence and kind thoughts. I would be honored to do it, but I feel we all would be better served by someone in LA, for an up close and personal visit. Last time I spoke to Fred on the phone it was very difficult to understand him, due to his condition. I would defer to our hostess with the mostess (who happens to be a plethora of musical knowledge esp. on the west coast scene) Kakki. Along with a good photographer (say Henry Diltz or Phyliss or Rick) we can get a great story and some shots to boot. Best Paz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:53:07 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: a joni rarity? In a message dated 6/26/00 7:19:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SCJoniGuy@aol.com writes: << However, the original record would be somewhat of a rarity if you're into that sort of thing... Bob >> I have it; did not consider it a rarity, but would sell if someone is interested. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:56:41 EDT From: PPeterson4@aol.com Subject: Joni Quote (unattributed) at the American Museum Planetarium I visited the new Rose Center at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City today. Among the many exhbits is one about the formation of planets and everything on them including humans. The exhibit is housed in a planet-like globe with little stations around it covering various aspects of matter formation. And embossed in metal in big letters, the title of one of the stations is WE ARE STARDUST. Where do you think they got that from? I thought Jonipeople would want to know.... Paul Peterson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:20:57 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Jimi recording of Joni? Now that's what I'm talking about! WOW! The thought just boggles my mind. Now this would be a tape tree. Simon can you get to work on this asap PLEASE! Still shaking, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:27:08 -0400 From: Matthew Snyder Subject: NJC - Wayne Shorter Hi all, I'm a new subscriber, although I've been a fan of jonimitchell.com since it appeared in 1995. I'm a jazz musician and writer, and a magazine I write for, Jazz Improv, just published an extensive interview with Wayne Shorter. I'm familiar with Wayne's work for the most part, and consider him to be among the music's top masters of all time. I've always been delighted by his perpetual presence in Joni's work for over 20 years now. (I'm kind of pissed he didn't tour with her.) But, I didn't know anything about him beyond his musical output. The interview is fascinating because, while Joni is not mentioned at all, it becomes eminently clear why they connect so well: he's just like her. Wayne is a renaissance man, just as much a well-rounded an artist and thinker as Joni. A practicing Buddhist, he has read voraciously since he was 13; he has painted and drawn since he was 8. The project he is working on now involves an orchestra, and "it will be as elaborate as can be, taking in every aspect of composing and improvisation." In an ensemble in which virtually every note played was seeking and new (the Miles Davis quintet 1964 - 68), Wayne was something of an epicenter. He helped SHAPE Joni's work, since we know she really dug that band. He talks about eliminating everything that works from a jazz improviser's lines, so that what is left are the mistakes, the areas for the growth of the new, the different. Does this sound familiar? Like Joni (and most jazz musicians) he has his own major complaints about how he has been treated by record companies and critics (a rotten review in The New York Times of his cd from a few years back, "High Life" basically caused the tour for that disk to be cancelled). It's no wonder Joni has repeatedly called on the guy for his touch, they're two peas in a pod. Have any articles been written in the past on this "special relationship," because I may have to write about it myself if nobody else has. Matt Snyder msnyder@dragonfire.net http://msnyder.dragonfire.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:33:03 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Incorrect (NJC) In a message dated 06/23/2000 3:20:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << I accused him of being a hate-monger and I invited him to deny it. He laughed in my face. This made it worse for me because I took it as confirming my worse fear. Eventually he recanted his hateful joke. I recanted my "facist" charge. >> Gina- This cannot be correct is it? Please be careful when quoting something written on the list. It's bad enough we have these "small fires", but when they are misquoted they can then be misinterpreted and so on and so on... Thank you Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:37:55 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Covers Leslie asked : << "What if Vince Mendoza orchestrated an album of duets between Jim Nabors and Claudine Longet?" >> Well I don't think Jim Nabors would look very good in an Issey Miyake outfit, and I can't imagine Claudine singing " Don't go to stwangeus, Woveu come back to me" :~) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:44:25 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Wedding Bells (NJC) Hi Pearl and Steve- I wish you guys and Marcy and new husband all the happiness in the world. Hope things are beautiful down there. And the CD sounds like a wonderful gesture on her part. What OTHER songs are on that list?? Best Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:46:19 -0400 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Nick Hornby book with Joni references I was reading this book "about a boy" by Nick Hornby, who wrote "high fidelity", and there are references to Joni Mitchell throughout the whole story. He must be quite a fan. It's not a bad story...good light reading. I especially like the last few lines... Will couldn't resist it: he had a theory he wanted to test out. "Hey Fiona. Why don't you get your sheet music out, and we can murder 'Both Sides Now'?" "Would you like to?" "Yeah. Sure." But he was watching Marcus, whose expression was that of a boy who had been asked to dance naked before a mixed audience of supermodels and cousins. "Please, Mum. Don't" "Don't be silly. You love singing. You love Joni Mitchell." "I don't. Not anymore. I bloody hate Joni Mitchell." Will knew then beyond any shadow of a doubt, that Marcus would be OK. - -from "about a boy" by Nick Hornby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:01:43 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: a joni rarity? Bob wrote: >However, the original record would be somewhat of a rarity if you're into >that sort of thing... well, I do have that sampler album in my collection. I would never let go of it, but I do wonder what it is worth. Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:02:01 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: NJC - Eminem & the Stones In my experience, most people don't know most of the words to "Brown Sugar." Here they are, followed by a few thoughts: BROWN SUGAR The Rolling Stones Gold Coast slave ship bound for cotton fields Sold in the market down in New Orleans Scarred old slaver knows he's doin' all right Hear him whip the women just around midnight Brown Sugar, how come you taste so good Brown Sugar, just like a young girl should Drums beatin' cold, English blood runs hot Lady of the house wonderin' when it's gonna stop House boy knows that he's doin' all right You should have heard him just around midnight Brown Sugar, how come you taste so good Brown Sugar, just like a young girl should Brown Sugar, how come you dance so good Brown Sugar, just like a black girl should I bet your mama was a tent show queen And all her girlfriends were sweet sixteen I'm no school boy but I know what I like You should have heard them just around midnight Brown Sugar, how come you taste so good Brown Sugar, just like a black girl should I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, wooo!! How come you, how come you dance so good Yeah, yeah, yeah, wooo!! Just like a, just like a black girl should Yeah, yeah, yeah, wooo!! Ever since this song came out -- '70 or '71 -- I've known what Mick was saying because I've always made a point of finding out the lyrics to songs I like. (And I always thought Joni was cool for providing her lyrics as part of the package.) But Jagger removes himself from this song in a way that Eminem doesn't in say, "The Real Slim Shady:" I'm like a head trip to listen to, cause I'm only givin you things you joke about with your friends inside your living room The only difference is I got the balls to say it in front of y'all and I don't gotta be false or sugarcoated at all I just get on the mic and spit it and whether you like to admit it {*ERR*} I just shit it For example, I think "Brown Sugar" would be racist and misogynistic if Mick also said, "I'm Mick Jagger, I'm the real Mick Jagger, Please stand up..." and then sang the song. That, to me, would be owning the thoughts and words in the song. But Jagger is singing about attitudes and situations that happened a hundred years before he was born, and that, I think, gives him some distance. He's not running the slave ship, or the slave market, and he's not whipping the women. I think the reason the Stones have never really been called to task for "Brown Sugar" is that most people come away from this song thinking that Mick is saying that African-American women are hot. Period. We can't yet put Eminem in any kind of historical context -- he's just too new to the culture. But when the Stones released "Brown Sugar," the slogan "Black is beautiful" was only about three or four years old. For racist, white America back then, "Black is beautiful" was shocking and just too much of an assault on the idea of white supremacy in everything, including physical attractiveness. At the time, all most white Americans knew of beautiful black women were a handful of celebrities such as Lena Horne, Diana Ross, and Dianne Carroll. The fact that the Stones were white boys singing about how sexy they found African American women, was, at the time, revolutionary. Anyone born in the last thirty years just doesn't have firsthand knowledge of how different American society and culture was once upon a time. But I remember how people white and black could really get worked up back then about things like interracial marriage, for example. (It may have even still been illegal in some states.) Although "Brown Sugar" can be thought of as sexist, I don't find it racist or misogynistic. At its worst, the song objectifies women and black women in particular. But it certainly isn't hateful, like Eminem's stuff. I was sorry to read Eminem's lyrics because I do think he is a talented writer and performer. But I'm not buying any of his music until he stops rapping about killing his mother and gay people. Call me old fashioned, but hate doesn't get my money. And although I think race relations and racial equality in the US have made many strides during the last thirty years, there's still a way to go. I think that if Eminem were black, he and his #1 CD would be experiencing a media backlash that just isn't happening to this white boy. --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:03:17 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Games when we are older NJC Games for When We Are Older 1. Sag, You're it 2. Pin the Toupee on the Bald Guy 3. 20 Questions Shouted into your Good Ear 4. Kick the Bucket 5. Red Rover, Red Rover, The Nurse Says Bend Over 6. Doc, Doc Goose 7. Simon Says Something Incoherent 8. Hide and Go Pee 9. Spin the Bottle of Mylanta 10.Musical Recliners __ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:10:41 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Interview with the Walecki (NJC) Michael Paz wrote: > I would be honored to do it, but I feel we all would be better served by someone in LA, for an up close >and personal visit. Last time I spoke to Fred on the phone it was very difficult to understand him, due >to his condition. I would defer to our hostess with the mostess (who happens to be a plethora of >musical knowledge esp. on the west coast scene) Kakki. Along with a good photographer (say Henry >Diltz or Phyliss or Rick) we can get a great story and some shots to boot. Well, I've tried to get John and/or Les out here to do the interview but if they can't make it I say a bunch of us do a group interview with Freddie. You can cover the VG-8 aspects. Mr. Dulson has "walked the walk" when it comes to the early scene and could pose some great questions. I can help fill in gaps with my photographically nerdy memory of trivia and history. Lindsay can transcribe it. Would love to get Henry to do the still photos! Phyliss can run the video. Ken can design the website art. Clark can buy a new guitar from him and Coyote Rick can host the whole shindig at Casa Alegre. What date shall we propose for this? Kakki, always organizing and only half kidding ;-D NP: kd lang - Extraordinary Thing (and yes, Philip, this album is indeed ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:31:20 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: what day is today???? NJC yes! jonifolks! she croons she mews she can charm all of youze she is: CATGIRL! and today is... CATGIRL'S BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! happy birthday, female feline! from le K, playing many many weird minor chords in his head ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:44:37 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: catherine's post on canada NJC pat publicized: >8======>~~~ pat, where did you get that picture of me?!?!?!?! folks, stop trading those pics! i was young and hungry, i needed the money... wally K [what will mother say?] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:46:42 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: what day is it today???? NJC In a message dated 6/27/2000 1:32:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << es! jonifolks! she croons she mews she can charm all of youze she is: CATGIRL! and today is... CATGIRL'S BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> Yes Folks! Wally, how observant of you. That 627 certainly is not my age! LOL! Catgirl (who really doesn't celebrate the year but the day!) YIKES!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:16:51 -0400 From: "Nikki Johnson" Subject: RE: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC Michael, I agree there are a lot of issues in this discussion. I however don't think that I personally have a bias against hip-hop I listen to it at times and teach dance so I hear it and enjoy some of it. I do not think that morality and quality are directly linked..however there is going to be some underlying feelings toward the song based on morality which may effect attitudes on quality. Also even if someone does respect the song on merit or 'high quality' that does not mean that they will necessecarily praise it if they don't agree w/ it. I think in general these 2 things are difficult for people to separate. Well change over time is a hard topic...I would hope that the desensitization doesn't expand so greatly that images like the ones M&M give are all that we hear. There are always songs that are controversial in nature... I will admit I kinda groove along to M&M's music but I usually end up turning it off b/c I don't like the message. A point was made by Bob (murphycopy) that M&M personalizes his lyrics by saying I which I agree shows he 'owns' the thoughts. Rather than telling us a story or giving an opinion. I don't think his lyrics will hold the test of time...I could be proven wrong...but just a hunch. It'd also be interesting to hear people's opinions on this very matter if M&M weren't white. I don't think he'd have quite as many people backing him. White privilege is a strong thing. Every generation will have it's own battles and none can ever be recreated (Woodstock was mentioned...it was the '99 one that got out of hand the '98 one was very laid back). Nikki "Ever since I was a baby girl the one thing I wanted most in this world was to keep my love alive" ~ Heart > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > michael w yarbrough > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 7:01 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC > > > > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Reuben Bell wrote: > > > The fact that this thread has gone on for so long is silly to me. > > I don't think the topic is silly at all, as it touches on some very > fundamental and interesting issues. > > The level of discussion, however, has indeed been silly at times. > > As far as I can tell, three big contentions have been made: > > 1) There is some necessary relationship between an art's morality and its > quality. People have suggested a couple different forms of this argument, > with some suggesting that there is a beyond-the-pale limit beyond which > any work becomes immoral, therefore bad. Others have suggested that all > art has a duty to express humans' "higher nature" (whatever that might > be), and any art without such an aim is of low quality. > > 2) Some immoral art, particularly that which represents violence, is > dangerous and demands a response of some sort, whether that be legal or > social censorship, or vigorous protest. > > 3) Tying the first two together is the contention that art is generally > of lower moral quality now than it used to be. If you accept premise 1), > that means art is now of generally lower quality. If you accept premise > 2), that means it is more dangerous. > > and related to all of these is > > 4) Eminem's work is unambiguously and uniquely violent, homophobic and > misogynist. It is the prime example of 3), is of poor quality because of > 1) and dangerous because of 2). > > I involved myself in this thread because I reject each of these > contentions at least partially. NOT BECAUSE I THINK HOMOPHOBIA, VIOLENCE > AND MISOGYNY ARE OK, RATIONALIZABLE, PERMISSIBLE, ETC. In my second post > on the topic, I made clear my hatred of homophobia, including Eminem's. > > The second, related reason I involved myself is that people in general, > and particularly on this list, hold knee-jerk prejudices against hip-hop. > These prejudices have skewed discussions about artistic merit, morality, > and danger before on this list, and they have done so again in this > instance in my opinion. > > So, to keep this discussion from being silly, I ask you: what is the > relationship between morality and artistic quality? Why? How do we deal > with changing definitions of morality over time if that is the case? > > The second premise has been better addressed, as it is closer to the > hearts of the many parents on the list. But what really is the > relationship between imagery and action? And what is the best response? > As a state, as a society, as a culture? Should we or should we not > contextualize imagery within the context of the artist and the history of > art when dealing with this question? > > The third premise is the one I reject most completely. I do not buy one > bit that the art of yesteryear is more moral, less homophobic, less > misogynist, or even less violent than that of today. It is especially not > so if you take the appropriately long view of history. > > And I think that Eminem's work is more ambiguous on all of these topics > than has been suggested. I believe he can be read with irony that does > not completely vitiate the homophobia, violence and misogyny that is in > his work, but that at least complicates it. It is thus my belief that we > should protest those readings that promote these elements. And, as I > pointed out with no response, almost every piece I've seen written on him > has done just that. Including mine. > > What no one, including myself, has addressed is what they *like* about > Eminem's work. Because many of you are unfamiliar with, or prejudiced > against, hip-hop, perhaps you do not see anything to admire. One point of > entry to any rap work is to listen to the voice as a percussive > instrument. Eminem's syllables alternately hit with and against the beat > with facility and freshness throughout entire songs. Billie Holiday and > Miles Davis became critical faves for doing similar things. His use of > rhythm is outstanding IMO, and is one reason I see him as incredibly > talented. If there were a necessary relationship between talent and > longevity in the music biz, I believe he would be around for a while for > this and many other reasons. > > I do not believe I have resorted to mere rationalization. If it seems I > have, perhaps either I have written or some have read with less care than > necessary. I do believe that these topics are interesting, engaging, and > much larger than Eminem, thus worthy of continued discussion. > > --Michael > > NP: Nina Simone, _I Loves You Porgy_ > > > ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #357 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?