From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #356 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Monday, June 26 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 356 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Beat of Black Wings ["P. Henry" ] Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. ["P. Henry" ] Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Nuriel, Cut It Out ["P. Henry" ] Re: Joni in Indy (njc) [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: dogs eat catman (NJC) ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) ["P. Henry" ] Re: Beat of Black wings...(NJC) ["P. Henry" ] Re: Beat of Black wings... ["P. Henry" ] Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! ["Reuben Bell" ] RE: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: Anyone in Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Nevada? and a Joni cover ["Aliso] all selections ["Ada Wittenberger" ] Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! [RandyRemote ] Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. [michael w yarbrough ] Re: unheard Joni album thread ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: unheard Joni album thread ["James Phillips" Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings Catherine (in Toronto) wrote: >>In the music book they actually have "Charlie Angel", but I always thought it was "Johnny Angel" as in the song from the 60's (?), or maybe late 50's: "Johnny Angel, how I love him..." I think it may have been sung by Shelley Fabares or another teen queen of the time.>> ===== catherine, I don't know if someone already stated this but yes, it was definitely Shelley Fabares on the song Johnny Angel and, even though it is Charlie Angel in TBOBW, it's interesting that you mention this song because the refrain is sung to exactly the same tune... wonder if that has something/anything to do with the meaning? what, I have no idea, but it seems unlikely that it's a coincidence. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 05:57:34 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. ya know, I haven't even been following either of these threads so whether my comments are relevant, I'm not sure... (pls keep in mind, I turn 51 in 2 months) Rap music, twenty years on... I like some... Will Smith, aka: Fresh Prince is excellent... Coolio's cool... I know youngfolk would think me unaware, which I am, but I recall the bustin' out days of Snoop and Dre coming off the 2live crew action of total obscenity and double versions of jams with and without (for radio $) and, with my folk background, I am just rebellious enough to let everyone do their own thing and consider poetry to be found in so many forms... but... the other night I was sitting out on the front porch watching the sunset and a few houses down the street, with the lowrider pickup with the earthquake speakers simmering in the driveway and the the three 14yr old standing out under the streetlight, smoking their cigarettes and dancing in a circle while the girl on the cd sang, over and over, 'you can eat me out... you can eat me out... you can eat me out...' and looking over at ME and, I gotta admit, I just lost it! pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 06:18:20 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: Happy Songs -- Harper' Choice Hi all, My vote for happiest Joni song is "Cotton Avenue." It is so full of steamy anticipation, like a ripe cantaloupe ready to burst in the sun. Carey, You Turn Me On, Underneath the Streetlight, All I Want, and a few others are really cheery and upbeat, but Cotton Avenue is a major inward happiness. It NEVER fails to cheer me up when I'm feeling blue. And, every time I see a red sun rolling through a grey sky, my spirits perk up automatically. Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Mon Jun 26 09:35:37 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. <> That's the only real rub I have with that too, Pat... I have a lot of records that are offensive, but I try and be sensitive to who's listening to what I'm playing. The common response to the complaints about the explicit lyrics is "Well, if you don't like it, don't listen". I've been in the park, either just sitting in the sun with my family or throwing the baseball around or something, and here comes a car blaring or somebody walking by with a jambox blasting stuff that *I* can certainly write off but I would prefer my child not be forced to hear. (That was years ago, btw...he's 14 now so it's no big deal). So that's MY complaint - I have no problem with any of this stuff being out there, just don't MAKE me listen to it if I choose not to... So much for the island *paradise*, huh? ;~) Bob NP: Bruce Cockburn/Gary Burton, "Mistress of Storms" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 06:49:04 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Nuriel, Cut It Out Nuriel writes: >s o r r y - sorry Catrina, sorry Paul, sorry everyone - it'll never happen again. please forgive me. yours, nuriel. (ada's son)> I forgive ya Nuriel... and I hope you can forgive too. sometimes I'm not so good at this particular thing but I'm trying... hope we can all forgive a bit more. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:10:01 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni in Indy (njc) There are a couple of good books by Sheila Davis that might interest you as a lyricist. DAVID LAHM (who lived at 1001 N Delaware in 1964-5 and still reveres INDIANAPOLIS as the home of the world's best barbecued spare ribs---Pa & Ma's at 27th and RADER) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:12:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: dogs eat catman (NJC) Ada Wittenberger, you wrote: > and mind you joni - an angry man is not just an > angry man, an angry bitch is worse than an angry > woman, you're not just waking up, and my happiest > joni song will be your last one. I am completely confused. What does this mean??? Lori, who is proud to say that Colin is one of her best JMDL friends, in DC __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:52:08 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) >13. Elvis Presley & (You're So Square) Baby, I Don't Care (Me)> HUH?!?!?!?!?!? IS THIS FOR REAL?!?!?!?!?!? *jaw hanging WAY open!!!* pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:48:46 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Beat of Black wings...(NJC) steve writes: << The phrasing and notes are very similar, hence my reason for believing this. Anyone recall or have this song?>> and jimmy responds: >Steve, that's exactly what I always thought too! I might be lyrically impaired, but I think Joni intentionally used Shelly's version of "Johnny Angel" whether or not she's saying Charlie or Johnny.> yeah, I think we're all seeing the same thing here... not only was the tune almost note for note but she's almost doing a Shelley Fabares impression with the same breathy, multi-girl vocal ala the Crystals/Leslie Gore, etc... this can't be by chance... maybe to capture that musical idiom of the time of Viet Nam? I don't know... pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:50:55 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Beat of Black wings... (note: pls pardon the repost as I don't consider this NJC and really wonder why it was tagged as such since it's about a Joni song?!?!?) steve writes: << The phrasing and notes are very similar, hence my reason for believing this. Anyone recall or have this song?>> and jimmy responds: >Steve, that's exactly what I always thought too! I might be lyrically impaired, but I think Joni intentionally used Shelly's version of "Johnny Angel" whether or not she's saying Charlie or Johnny.> yeah, I think we're all seeing the same thing here... not only was the tune almost note for note but she's almost doing a Shelley Fabares impression with the same breathy, multi-girl vocal ala the Crystals/Leslie Gore, etc... this can't be by chance... maybe to capture that musical idiom of the time of Viet Nam? I don't know... pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:11:27 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! Maybe we could arrange an address or a drop box for the offending discs? (Make room for Diamanda Galas, Martika, and Sugarsmack from my end...:) ) Reuben >From: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com >Reply-To: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com >To: Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com, joni@smoe.org, MDESTE1@aol.com >Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:09:12 EDT > >In a message dated 6/22/00 12:51:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com writes: > ><< Given Eminem's attitude toward women, gays, mothers, and mammals in >general, > I move that owning or buying one of his records would be grounds for > immediate removal from this esteemed list. >> > >Well, I guess a few of us have to leave now...I didn't know there was a >membership committee that reviewed music collections prior to our >admission. >They missed my house. I did hide any Kenny G or Kathie Lee CDs I had >around >- just in case. Is there a published list of banned music on the JMDL web >site? :-) > >With regrets, > >Coyote (Rick) >Casa Alegre >Hollywood, California > >I'll be dancin' on a pony keg. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:27:55 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: don't know life but jmdl at all Hi!!!!lord i missed you!!!! do you believe in pre-feeling something like feeling that something good's gonna happen and it happens?... well i've got that feeling about joni. i have no idea why i do. i'm telling you folks - i feel a big big healing. nuriel ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:30:27 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: RE: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! (See post below) Its just a natural progression, though. What was shocking then wouldn't even raise a blush now, and Eminem won't bother anyone in 50 years. Sad commentary on our society? Yes, I think so. Reason for mass hysteria? I don't agree. Madonna pissed people off regularly in the 80's with her sauciness, but once we all quit worrying about it, things progressed. This too, shall pass. Another thing is, there's no accounting for trash. There will always be people who talk nasty and embarass themselves and show the rest of us that their mothers didn't teach them how to act. We don't have to listen to them. Reuben "Honey, I can't believe you are still banging on my door. Where are you from? Where are you manners...?" Lady Chablis, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil >From: Louis Lynch However, I don't ever remember any of those "shockers" using lyrics about >raping their mothers, hideously violent acts, degradation of women, etc. > >Sex, drugs and rock & roll is VERY different from incest, murder and >misogyny. > >No way will I accept that it is "EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!" as Coyote >claims. > > >If you're defending freedom of speech and expression, fine, he's free to >say >what he wants, although the thought of him receiving major airtime is >frightening. > >But if you think it's just another harmless matter of kids shocking their >parents with their art, that goes over like a lead balloon, lead lead >balloon. > >The lyrics are appalling and criminal, and simply cannot be defended or >rationalized. > >Regards, > >Harper Lou > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:34:06 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: dogs eat catman(??????) "and mind you joni - an angry man is not just an angry man, an angry bitch is worse than an angry woman, you're not just waking up, and my happiest joni song will be your last one." HUH?!?!? ...anybody know what this means??? Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:53:20 -0600 From: "Alison Einerson" Subject: Re: Anyone in Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Nevada? and a Joni cover hello kate, and everyone, i think i mentioned at some point that i am a volunteer and programmer at KRCL. i do a show called Woman to Woman on tuesday mornings. (i used to do a late night show, but i finally got bumped up!) anyhow, now that i know your cd is at the station, i am excited to go give it a listen. if susanne hasn't taken it home, of course. There are others on this list that have also had their music played on KRCL, including Steve Dulson and David Lahm. Anyone who is interested in sending their music is more than welcome. I only play women on my show (yes, PLENTY of joni...), but i can pass along any male artists to programmers who would be interested. congrats kate! susanne's show has a significant listenership. i am sure it will spark some interest. take care, alison e in slc. p.s. anyone who is interested can visit us at www.krcl.org - ---------- >From: "Kate Bennett" >To: >Subject: Anyone in Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Nevada? and a Joni cover >Date: Sat, Jun 24, 2000, 6:58 PM > >I just learned that "Over the Moon" was included on the playlist for >Thursday Breakfast Jam, which airs from 6- 9 am on KRCL 90.9FM in Salt Lake >City, 96.5FM in Park City, and KZMU 89.7FM in Moab > >If you are in the area, listen in next Thursday morning. Maybe if you call >in requests (or email susanne365@aol.com) she will play some more cuts!!!! > >Getting some radio play is REALLY exciting for me. Thank you all for your >wonderful support!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:43:15 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: all selections selections - joni's chosen word for "songs" on "joni mitchell song to a seagull". do you know what's selections in the death camps? and i'm telling you joni is the one. and i'm telling you joni is doing the dirty work. and i'm telling you - she's gonna kill us all - or free us all. and i'm telling you she's a saint. Magdalane? the whore of god? no way. a m o t h e r !!!! n.p. "cactus" by the pixies. p.s. any happy news on joni and kilauren? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:54:06 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) In a message dated 6/26/00 11:00:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << >13. Elvis Presley & (You're So Square) Baby, I Don't Care (Me)> HUH?!?!?!?!?!? IS THIS FOR REAL?!?!?!?!?!? *jaw hanging WAY open!!!*> Pat, it is for real and I actually like it. Maybe it's because I kind of liked some of Elvis' music, but I wouldn't have put it on the "cheese* cd. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon Jun 26 13:13:26 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) <> It's from the "Jailhouse Rock" Soundtrack. Like Jimmy said, it's really quite good. Plus, the lyrics are a little different. And of course, it's NOT a Joni song anyway, but like "Twisted" and "How Do You Stop", I think of it as one. In actuality, it's a Lieber/Stoller song, they were the guys who wrote lots of hits, mostly for black vocal groups in the 50's/60's, The Coasters, etc. Bob NP: Holly Cole, "Take Me Home" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:13:34 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! The most shocking part is that you and M.Y. and others have such an easy time ratiionalizing hatespeech. And no, it is not the same as Madonna running around in her underwear. RR Reuben Bell wrote: > (See post below) Its just a natural progression, though. What was shocking > then wouldn't even raise a blush now, and Eminem won't bother anyone in 50 > years. Sad commentary on our society? Yes, I think so. Reason for mass > hysteria? I don't agree. Madonna pissed people off regularly in the 80's > with her sauciness, but once we all quit worrying about it, things > progressed. This too, shall pass. > > Another thing is, there's no accounting for trash. There will always be > people who talk nasty and embarass themselves and show the rest of us that > their mothers didn't teach them how to act. We don't have to listen to > them. > > Reuben > > "Honey, I can't believe you are still banging on my door. Where are you > from? Where are you manners...?" > Lady Chablis, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil > > >From: Louis Lynch >However, I don't ever remember any of those "shockers" using lyrics about > >raping their mothers, hideously violent acts, degradation of women, etc. > > > >Sex, drugs and rock & roll is VERY different from incest, murder and > >misogyny. > > > >No way will I accept that it is "EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!" as Coyote > >claims. > > > > > >If you're defending freedom of speech and expression, fine, he's free to > >say > >what he wants, although the thought of him receiving major airtime is > >frightening. > > > >But if you think it's just another harmless matter of kids shocking their > >parents with their art, that goes over like a lead balloon, lead lead > >balloon. > > > >The lyrics are appalling and criminal, and simply cannot be defended or > >rationalized. > > > >Regards, > > > >Harper Lou > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:27:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #353 - vljc - --- Kardinel@aol.com wrote: > Regarding Canada. I live 99 miles from the border > and at one time in my life > lived 11 miles from it. There is a defining change > the minute you go through > the border patrol. For example, when I lived on the > Quebec border there was a > sense of style and sophistication in clothing > (Mainers are,maybe, the worst > dressed people in the US). The Quebecois are definitely much better dressers than most of the rest of us. It's the French thing, I guess. Most of the rest of us dress like hosers (which is kind of like how the people from Maine dress!) (Of course, I'm speaking strictly for myself - - I have no fashion sense whatsover, and I blame this on the fact that I attended Catholic schools during the late 60s/early 70s, so that my wardrobe consisted of a uniform for school, and jeans and so on for the rest of the time. I know one or two fellow Canadians who *do* know how to dress - the fact that these tend to be gay men notwithstanding ;) My 13-year old daughter has pretty good taste, so I use her as my fashion consultant! The Quebecois are different in just about every way from most of the rest of Canada. The fact that their main ethnic origin is French, from France and that the language spoken by the majority of them is French may have something to do with it ;) Many of their laws are based on Napoleonic law, which can be quite different from the rest of Canada, which bases most of its laws on English law and British common law. (For example, my aunt, even though she has called herself "Mrs Weir" since she married, was admitted to hospital in Montreal as "Mme McKay", her maiden name, and thus missed out on several gifts of flowers that well-meaning English-speaking friends had sent her - under Quebec law, a woman retains her birth name, regardless of whether or not she chooses to use her husband's name after marriage. (In most provinces these days, you have the choice of using either your birth name, or your husband's name, although a few years ago, you were considered weird if you wanted to keep your birth name after getting married). > I know that Canadians like to visit my town for > shopping. They have bus trips > etc. but whether they buy into the Walmart - Rite > Aid culture of Maine, I > have no idea. We have,on the other hand, many > Mainers who take buses to > Canada so they can buy affordable prescription > drugs. So does any of this > mean anything? Who knows? I suggest a lot of this is "the grass is always greener" syndrome. A lot of people from Toronto used to go down to Buffalo to get clothing cheaper - this may have changed since our dollar has gone down so much compared to the US one. The Americans like to come up here because they think they're getting a bargain because one of their dollars is worth about $1.40 of ours. I think it does all even out in the end, but there's always the novelty of buying something in another country. (Hey Maude, look at this! I bought this in Canada!) Because I work for in the gov't/health field, I'm aware of the Americans-coming-to-Canada-to-buy-cheaper-Rx-drugs thing. It has some politicians concerned (needlessly IMO) that we may not have enough drugs for our own people (!) What I find truly amazing and kind of amusing in this is the idea that *anything* could possibly be cheaper in Canada than in the US - we usually pay a lot more for things here, even if you do take the $ exchange rate into consideration. The difference with the drugs is that other companies are permitted to make generic versions of some of the brand-name drugs (like Prozac and so on) sooner than they can in the US, something that drives our brand-name drug manufacturers crazy and they keep lobbying the government to change it to be like the US. > I think that everyone's place of orgin gives them a > certain perspective-at > least in a regional sense-maybe more. Joni Mitchell > is no exception. Her > roots are explored over and over again in her > writing. > I've thought this one over - initially my reaction (as a Canadian) was that there's not *that* much difference between Canadians and Americans who may feel somewhat ambivalent about America and its culture. There probably IS more of a difference than I initially thought. I think that Americanism is *so* inculcated into Americans from the time they are little children so that it's practically bred in the bone. American children make a pledge of allegiance every morning at school. Canadian children sing the national anthem, but that's about it. Canadians love their country just as much as Americans love theirs, but I think we tend to be more tolerant and flexible in our views - we realize that our peace-keeping forces may not always be welcome and that our people can and do make mistakes. I think Americans have a tougher time with that (that may be just the way I see it though, as a darn foreigner ;) > In closing, I do like the feeling of Canada. The > safety nets for poorer > people, the lack of crime etc. Unfortunately, there's a pretty big tendency these days to swing to the far right and many of these safety nets are being cut away. Some of our more conservative politicians want us to be more like the US - big business good, too much government bad. Unfortunately things tend to be over-simplified, so that poor people are often painted as always being responsible for their own problems. People just can't seem to deal with anything that's not black and white, right or wrong - there never seems to be a middle ground. Unfortunately too, our crime rate does seem to be going up and, even though our gun laws are much tougher than the US ones, there are a lot more crimes being committed now that involve guns than there ever used to be. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:41:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! - --- Reuben Bell wrote: > Another thing is, there's no accounting for trash. > There will always be > people who talk nasty and embarass themselves and > show the rest of us that > their mothers didn't teach them how to act LOL - Sure, Reuben, blame the mother. Always blame the mother! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:48:04 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #353 - vljc In a message dated 6/26/00 1:32:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca writes: << but I think we tend to be more tolerant and flexible in our views - we realize that our peace-keeping forces may not always be welcome and that our people can and do make mistakes. >> "Realizing that our peacekeeping force may not always be welcome" sounds pretty damn timid, eh? Americans do not CARE whether our peacekeeping forces are welcome; they are there to do a necessary job, dammit, regardless of whether they are welcome by the locals. Maybe that's the difference between being the most powerful nation in the world and the most powerful nation's friendly neighbor. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:58:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > < front porch watching the sunset and a few houses > down the street, with the lowrider pickup with > the earthquake speakers simmering in the > driveway>> > > That's the only real rub I have with that too, > Pat... > > I have a lot of records that are offensive, but I > try and be sensitive to who's listening to what I'm > playing. The common response to the complaints about > the explicit lyrics is "Well, if you don't like it, > don't listen". > > I've been in the park, either just sitting in the > sun with my family or throwing the baseball around > or something, and here comes a car blaring or > somebody walking by with a jambox blasting stuff > that *I* can certainly write off but I would prefer > my child not be forced to hear. This reminds me of a very surrealistic experience I had not too long ago. My 9-yr old is really into basketball these days, so sometimes I take him over to the school to shoot some hoops. One Sunday evening, as we were "practicing", along come several groups of young people who are obviously "teams" who have arranged a match against each other. One team was made up of predominantly black young men, with a few white guys, and some girlfriends tagging along (one looked about 16 with a young baby with her); the other was all Asian - they didn't look like what I would think of as "typical" Chinese-Canadian, so I guessed they were either recent Chinese, (but probably not from Hong Kong, or maybe Vietnamese, or even Korean. I don't speak or understand Chinese, but you get used to hearing it spoken, and what they were speaking didn't sound like any Chinese I'm used to hearing.) A bunch of really good-looking girls were with them. They were quite pleasant though, and one young guy asked if we'd mind moving over to another basket, because they were playing "Foo ko". I had to ask him to repeat himself a couple of times before I realized he was saying "full court"! Along comes a car and parks in the parking lot. A guy gets out of the car, and opens the trunk. In the trunk, is the biggest damn set of stereo speakers I've ever seen. He proceeds to play rap music SO LOUD, the nearby buildings were shaking! My jaw just dropped - I've never seen this kind of thing before and all I could think about was that little baby and how she would end up deaf before she was two. It was just so weird. They were playing background music for the big game, which seemed almost like a gang war without the knives, and I figure they must do this on a regular basis. They behaved themselves well enough and started playing and they seemed to be just there to play basketball. We hung around and watched for a while but the whole idea that they were playing this music so loud - right in the middle of a suburban neighbourhood, apparently not giving a rat's ass about whether other people might mind - just amazed me. I'm sure the neighbours must have been right on the phone to the cops to complain - fortunately, we live far enough from the school for that not to be an issue, or I'd have had to argue with myself over whether I should or should not complain about the noise! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:01:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #353 - vljc - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/26/00 1:32:41 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca writes: > > << but I think we tend to be more tolerant and > flexible > in our views - we realize that our peace-keeping > forces may not always be welcome and that our > people > can and do make mistakes. >> > > "Realizing that our peacekeeping force may not > always be welcome" sounds > pretty damn timid, eh? > Americans do not CARE whether our peacekeeping > forces are welcome; they are > there to do a necessary job, dammit, regardless of > whether they are welcome > by the locals. Maybe that's the difference between > being the most powerful > nation in the world and the most powerful nation's > friendly neighbor. > > Paul I Maybe I was too subtle, but I think you missed my point. The Americans always seem to be surprised when the natives don't welcome them with open arms. It would never occur to them that there are other opinions out there. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:26:04 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: USA Vs. Canada Deathmatch - NJC Do I smell a new "war" brewing? Say it ain't so, Joe! :-) "Boston Jim" > The Americans always seem to be surprised when > the natives don't welcome them with open arms. It > would never occur to them that there are other > opinions out there. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:27:57 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. Catherine wrote: > They were playing background music for the big > game, which seemed almost like a gang war without the > knives but then wrote: > They behaved themselves well enough and > started playing and they seemed to be just there to > play basketball. Clearly I'm missing something. I don't understand what sort of good behavior would suggest any similarity to a gang war. The only connection that might come to mind is the saddeningly obvious racist one, which I will assume was not what you intended. - --Michael, "rationalizer" of free speech ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:31:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days, etc. - --- michael w yarbrough wrote: > > Catherine wrote: > > > They were playing background music for the big > > game, which seemed almost like a gang war without > the > > knives > > but then wrote: > > > They behaved themselves well enough and > > started playing and they seemed to be just there > to > > play basketball. > > Clearly I'm missing something. I don't understand > what sort of good > behavior would suggest any similarity to a gang war. > > The only connection that might come to mind is the > saddeningly obvious > racist one, which I will assume was not what you > intended. > Oops, I didn't mean to sound racist and was afraid it might be perceived as such. The fact that they all arrived in big groups and were clearly divided between the Asians on one side and the mostly-blacks on the other side seemed to suggest a possible "gang" thing. And unfortunately there have been a lot of inter-racial gang things (in Toronto anyway) that start out as an apparently friendly basketball game and end up wit someone getting shot or knifed because of a dispute over scores. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:32:51 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! I am even more shocked that you are implying to the entire list that I am rationalizing hatespeech. I don't think that I ever, at any point, addressed the actual content of Eminiem's work. (This is mainly because I am not familiar with enough of it to consider myself an expert.) I was giving my opinion on the cultural context in which Eminem is inadvertently placing himself. This is the kind of thing that I find interesting; trends in pop culture and society. That's all... So I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to that, dear. :) Reuben (who's first respose is to feel attacked, but am letting it go.) np: Sinead O'Connor-Faith and Courage >From: RandyRemote >To: Reuben Bell , jonilist >Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:13:34 -0700 > >The most shocking part is that you and M.Y. and others have such an >easy time ratiionalizing hatespeech. >And no, it is not the same as Madonna running around in her >underwear. >RR > >Reuben Bell wrote: > > > (See post below) Its just a natural progression, though. What was >shocking > > then wouldn't even raise a blush now, and Eminem won't bother anyone in >50 > > years. Sad commentary on our society? Yes, I think so. Reason for >mass > > hysteria? I don't agree. Madonna pissed people off regularly in the >80's > > with her sauciness, but once we all quit worrying about it, things > > progressed. This too, shall pass. > > > > Another thing is, there's no accounting for trash. There will always be > > people who talk nasty and embarass themselves and show the rest of us >that > > their mothers didn't teach them how to act. We don't have to listen to > > them. > > > > Reuben > > > > "Honey, I can't believe you are still banging on my door. Where are you > > from? Where are you manners...?" > > Lady Chablis, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil > > > > >From: Louis Lynch > >However, I don't ever remember any of those "shockers" using lyrics >about > > >raping their mothers, hideously violent acts, degradation of women, >etc. > > > > > >Sex, drugs and rock & roll is VERY different from incest, murder and > > >misogyny. > > > > > >No way will I accept that it is "EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!" as Coyote > > >claims. > > > > > > > > >If you're defending freedom of speech and expression, fine, he's free >to > > >say > > >what he wants, although the thought of him receiving major airtime is > > >frightening. > > > > > >But if you think it's just another harmless matter of kids shocking >their > > >parents with their art, that goes over like a lead balloon, lead lead > > >balloon. > > > > > >The lyrics are appalling and criminal, and simply cannot be defended or > > >rationalized. > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Harper Lou > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:58:37 EST From: "James Phillips" Subject: unheard Joni album thread I would of responded earlier to the unheard Joni album thread, but yesterday was the gay pride parade in St. Louis that I went to and I have been pre-occupied with getting ready for that. The Joni albums that I haven't heard are as follows: For the Roses, Court and Spark, Hissing of the Summer Lawn, and Wild Things Run Fast. They are on my list to get and listen all the way through to. So that is why I wasn't aware of happy Joni songs from Wild Things....I simply don't have the album nor have heard it (except for Chinese Cafe from the Hits cd)... James Phillips from Champaign, IL USA ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:18:05 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: unheard Joni album thread Great, James! Please review them for us with your "fresh ears." And please keep in mind the years they were released, and what the popular music of the day sounded like at the time. They're going on 20 to 30-years old, those albums. :-) "Boston Jim" > The Joni albums that I haven't heard are as follows: For the Roses, Court > and Spark, Hissing of the Summer Lawn, and Wild Things Run Fast. They are > on my list to get and listen all the way through to. > > James Phillips from Champaign, IL USA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:26:21 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: unheard Joni album thread My point being, before anyone misunderstands...they are timeless. :-) "Boston Jim" > Please review them for us with your "fresh ears." And please keep in mind > the years they were released, and what the popular music of the day sounded > like at the time. They're going on 20 to 30-years old, those albums. :-) > > "Boston Jim" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:51:46 EST From: "James Phillips" Subject: Re: unheard Joni album thread I'll tell the list what. When I go to the library tommorow, I'll see what Joni cd's they have that I don't have and I'll check those out and send out my reviews of them as I get them listened to. James Phillips >From: "James L. Leonard" >To: "James Phillips" , >Subject: Re: unheard Joni album thread >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:18:05 -0700 > >Great, James! > >Please review them for us with your "fresh ears." And please keep in mind >the years they were released, and what the popular music of the day sounded >like at the time. They're going on 20 to 30-years old, those albums. :-) > >"Boston Jim" > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:22:16 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #353 - vljc In a message dated 6/26/00 2:02:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca writes: << Maybe I was too subtle, but I think you missed my point. The Americans always seem to be surprised when the natives don't welcome them with open arms. It would never occur to them that there are other opinions out there. >> Maybe I was too subtle ... it's because we don't give a damn about their opinions. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:41:22 -0700 From: RandyRemote Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! Reuben Bell wrote: > I am even more shocked that you are implying to the entire list that I am > rationalizing hatespeech. I don't think that I ever, at any point, > addressed the actual content of Eminiem's work. I thought that's what this discussion was about. > (This is mainly because I > am not familiar with enough of it to consider myself an expert.) Some of his lyrics promoting gay bashing were posted at the beginning of this thread in more than one post.. Expertise is not required. > I was > giving my opinion on the cultural context in which Eminem is inadvertently > placing himself. This is the kind of thing that I find interesting; trends > in pop culture and society. That's all... > > So I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to that, dear. :) I'm not attacking you, and will address your comments more directly below. > > > Reuben (who's first respose is to feel attacked, but am letting it go.) > > np: Sinead O'Connor-Faith and Courage > > >From: RandyRemote > >To: Reuben Bell , jonilist > >Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! > >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:13:34 -0700 > > > >The most shocking part is that you and M.Y. and others have such an > >easy time ratiionalizing hatespeech. > >And no, it is not the same as Madonna running around in her > >underwear. > >RR > > > >Reuben Bell wrote: > > > > > (See post below) Its just a natural progression, though. What was > >shocking > > > then wouldn't even raise a blush now, and Eminem won't bother anyone in > >50 > > > years. I would hope that in 50 years, (and assuming anything, even survival of our species in 50 years is assuming alot) people will still find hateful violence promoting speech offensive and oppose it. > Sad commentary on our society? Yes, I think so. Reason for > >mass > > > hysteria? I don't agree. Madonna pissed people off regularly in the > >80's > > > with her sauciness, but once we all quit worrying about it, things > > > progressed. This too, shall pass. I'm sorry, but this is too nonchalant for me. We need to point out and expose hatemongers, not look the other way and hope it passes. RR > > > > > > > Another thing is, there's no accounting for trash. There will always be > > > people who talk nasty and embarass themselves and show the rest of us > >that > > > their mothers didn't teach them how to act. We don't have to listen to > > > them. > > > > > > Reuben > > > > > > "Honey, I can't believe you are still banging on my door. Where are you > > > from? Where are you manners...?" > > > Lady Chablis, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil > > > > > > >From: Louis Lynch > > >However, I don't ever remember any of those "shockers" using lyrics > >about > > > >raping their mothers, hideously violent acts, degradation of women, > >etc. > > > > > > > >Sex, drugs and rock & roll is VERY different from incest, murder and > > > >misogyny. > > > > > > > >No way will I accept that it is "EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!" as Coyote > > > >claims. > > > > > > > > > > > >If you're defending freedom of speech and expression, fine, he's free > >to > > > >say > > > >what he wants, although the thought of him receiving major airtime is > > > >frightening. > > > > > > > >But if you think it's just another harmless matter of kids shocking > >their > > > >parents with their art, that goes over like a lead balloon, lead lead > > > >balloon. > > > > > > > >The lyrics are appalling and criminal, and simply cannot be defended or > > > >rationalized. > > > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > > > >Harper Lou > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:42:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #353 - vljc - --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/26/00 2:02:05 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca writes: > > << Maybe I was too subtle, but I think you missed my > point. The Americans always seem to be surprised > when > the natives don't welcome them with open arms. It > would never occur to them that there are other > opinions out there. > >> > Maybe I was too subtle ... it's because we don't > give a damn about their > opinions. > Paul, you said that already and I don't think anyone would *ever* accuse you of being "too subtle". However, I don't think you speak for all Americans - I think some of them do give a damn about us foreigners' opinions (and yeesh, now I understand why my Dad refused to shop at Wal-mart!) But just for your sake, let's re-fight the War of 1812... The War of 1812 revisited. Somewhere on the US/Canadian border. Early in the morning. IVPaul approaches from the US side, Catherine from the Canadian side. Paul is armed with a humungous American flag and a big stick; Catherine with one of those chintzy paper Canadian flag and a cold brewski. Paul: (brandishing his stick and waving Old Glory): SOMEONE TELLS ME YOU CANADIANS WON THE WAR OF 1812. THAT’S A CROCK. I’M HERE TO WHUP SOME CANADIAN ASS! AMERICA, RIGHT OR WRONG! Catherine (taking a swig of her cold one): OK. Whatever you want, eh. I’m not here to start a fight or anything. Paul: C’MON, YOU COMMY BASTARD – ARE YOU GONNA FIGHT OR WHAT? Catherine: Fight? Who, me? What for? Paul: Aaarrrggghhhhh! [Rushes forward across the Canadian border. Is stopped by Canadian border guards.] Border guard: So, you're here to visit Canada, eh? What is the purpose of your visit and how long are you planning to stay? Paul: I'm here to WHUP SOME CANADIAN ASS and I'm only staying long enough to do it! Border guard: OK, whatever. Come on in, and enjoy your stay, eh? Paul: (rushing at Catherine with his big stick and his American flag) AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHH! Catherine: (pulls out Joni Mitchell CD and brandishes it like a crucifix before a vampire) Joni Mitchell never lies, eh? Paul: (disintegrating into a gelatinous mass not unlike the Wicked Witch of the West when confronted with Dorothy's bucket of water): You didn't.... tell me... you were bringing .... Joniiiiiiiiiiiiii (vanishes in a puff of smoke.) Catherine (picks up Old Glory and restores it to its proper upright position. Brushes dirt off. Turns to border guard and hands him a brewski): Cheers, eh? (Peace) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:23:26 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: catherine's post on canada NJC catherine, thank you for this post. your sense of humor has kept me from writing a very ugly reply. now i can laugh instead of YELL LIKE A F_ING RAGING LOON, though i still feel very angry and i might lash out at any moment. love, wally K > > --- IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 6/26/00 2:02:05 PM Eastern > > Daylight Time, > > catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca writes: > > > > Maybe I was too subtle ... it's because we don't > > give a damn about their > > opinions. > > > Paul, you said that already and I don't think anyone > would *ever* accuse you of being "too subtle". ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #356 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?