From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #353 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Saturday, June 24 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 353 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- more on Mitchell's Canadian voice [Bounced Message ] My summer - NJC [Bounced Message ] Re: Blowup (1966) njc [Relayer211@aol.com] RE: what's the most happiest joni song? [Don Rowe ] Re: Unheard Joni Albums [B Merrill ] Re: MORE JACO & WAYNE [B Merrill ] Re: Beat of Black wings...(NJC) [Phyliss Ward ] Cagney and Lacey(NJC) [Relayer211@aol.com] Re: Unheard Joni Albums ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: Cagney and Lacey(NJC) [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Unheard Joni Albums ["Joni Fan" ] shocking lyrics [Walter R Rodgers III ] Re: Unheard Joni Albums [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Catman-NJC ["James Phillips" ] happy Joni songs ["James Phillips" ] going on a holidayNJC ["James Phillips" ] JONI AND PAT [dave fairall / beth miller ] m & m NJC ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: happy Joni songs [Murphycopy@aol.com] RE: Beat of Black Wings ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: happy Joni songs [CaTGirl627@aol.com] My Best To You [Bounced Message ] RE: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:29:08 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: more on Mitchell's Canadian voice Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:26:12 -0400 (EDT) From: mariko sano Thanks Jim, Mary, Mags and everyone for the welcoming words, and for the advice. Bob and Catherine have also commented on the "Canadian sensibility." (something I wrote hastily the other day). I should clarify what I meant by that. I didn’t to mean to suggest there is a single national perspective. There is no single attribute beyond citizenship that all Canadians share. Canada is a diverse country, and we have this in common with our neighbour to the south. Jim is right to say that one doesn’t have to be Canadian to be ambivalent towards popular American culture, and many Canadians participate in the culture of Regis Philbis and Wal-Mart without any conscious reflection on it at all. Many Canadians feel "right at home" in America, and many choose to live there. At the same time, many Americans prefer to live here. I agree with Catherine that Canadians and Americans do have a lot in common, generally speaking. But as far as generalities go, it is just as fair to say that Canadians and Americans are quite different. Catherine says that we are all members of an "extremely consumer-driven society." Yes, we are (probably more production-driven), but then so is much of the world. Can we conclude that we are all the same? I agree that Joni Mitchell’s art "transcends nationality" but I didn’t intend "Canadian sensibility" to mean a national trait, but merely to suggest an alternate point-of-view, one which is not American. It is not a generalization but fact that Canada and the United States are different countries with different histories. In spite of the (American-based) commercial culture Catherine refers to, and in spite of free trade and our increasingly deregulated economy, our countries have centuries of tradition and history which cannot be effaced so easily ­ certainly not in (or by) a single generation. I don’t think I compliment my American friends by pretending that differences do not exist, or worse, imagining that we think and live just the same. I think most readers here, regardless where they are from will accept that it is not arrogant or nationalistic to lay claim to a national identity. These differences should be more apparent to Canadians than Americans. Because we are a minority (Canadians being a much smaller part of the North American equation), the "fact" of Canada is not in the American media. We learn more about their country than they do ours. "Canada" is not a part of the "American sensibility," but that does not mean we, our nation and our sensibility does not exist. It only means that most Americans do not think about us very often. But surely we don’t need Americans to tell us we are here. Isn’t it our responsibility to tell them, through our stories and with our own voice? I think Joni Mitchell sees America as a Canadian. This is what I meant by her "Canadian voice." Her unusual gift is in the way she expresses it. In the coming months I want to discuss with others her writing. I look forward to the exchange. I'm going to abandon my computer for a week in my canoe. Please forward comments to me anyway. Have a fun Canada Day or Independence Day celebration, or if neither applies, just have a darn good week! Ron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:30:02 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: My summer - NJC From: TanyerSCO@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:13:05 EDT Hi everyone! I've been lurking for a while. Busy with a show and some cabaret work. Anyway, I'm sending this posting to let you all know that as of Friday, June 30, I will be away for the summer. I will be working (as an actor) for the New London Barn Playhouse in New London, NH (for those of you who live nearby) until August 27th and won't have any access to my e-mail. So probably the night before I leave, I'll un.sub.scribe myself so my mail doesn't get crazily backed up. If any of you are interested in knowing more about the specifics of the season, e-mail me off the list and I can give you more info. When I get back at the end of August, I'll re-sub.scribe to the list. Have a wonderful summer and remember that I'll still be here on the list for another week if you want more info! : ) Tanya ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:29:21 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Re: Blowup (1966) njc I posted that review here because I think it's well written,especially when that masterpiece is so misunderstood and unappreciated by so many people,who don't take the time to watch it carefully and thoughtfully. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:46:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: RE: what's the most happiest joni song? "The Crazy Cries of Love" has what one might think of as a certain kind of happiness ... ;-D Don Rowe ===== "I do not object to others hiding from history. What I object to are others hiding history from ME." - -- Shelby Foote __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:02:35 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: Unheard Joni Albums Boston Jim said: >Bruce just mentioned never having heard CMIARS. I'd find it fascinating to >know who else on the list has missed one or more, and which ones. Not only have I not heard it, I don't even recognize the acronym. Gulp. It turns out that while I am a hardcore Hissing FANatic, I'm not very, er, "developed" as a Joni fan. (Please don't hate me!) I was so bummed by Hejira that I tossed it out the window after two listens. Now I just recently listened to DED and DJRD (for the second time?) which I dug out of my cob-webbed collection of vinyl since I've been going through this intense re-appreciation of Hissing... - --sheepishly, Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:49:33 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: MORE JACO & WAYNE Dave said: >Wayne's and Jaco's genius was never more evident then in Weather Report >with Joe Zawinul, a band that really charted new territory. I saw Jaco >w/ them 3 times, the first being in 1975 or 76 before he had recorded >"Black Market". Just amazing-- Yes, that would have been Jaco at peek performance. [So Where was I?] Shorter of course was a member of one of >Miles Davis' pivotal bands as well, but I think his work with Zawinul >showed his penchant for space, a less is more concept, and wonderful >harmonic sensibility. But have your heard his extensive work with Art Blakey, and all the Blue Note albums under his own name? Shorter's entire output is tremendous in quality and quantity. His second version of the Messengers (and he was the music director during his stay), the sextet with Curtis Fuller and Freddie Hubbard was, by common consent, the best of all. (There's also the earlier fine Blakey group with Lee Morgan.) And I think that his period with Davis was the best Davis group. And then all those Blue Notes... I could go on... but this is a Joni list. Both Jaco and Wayne were a very profound influence >on me at an early age, as was Joni in an altogether different way. I'm >grateful that she collaborated with Jaco, and continues to do so w/ >Wayne, as it has produced some of the most original American music. >I never tire of Mingus and Shadow's and Light, and agree that Hejira >would have too much sameness if it weren't for Jaco's contribution to >the texture. >He was a regular fixture at the BB courts in the village at the time I >lived in NYC, sometimes playing, but most often just hanging talking >trash. It's too bad he couldn't have sought professional help. >Per Joni's comment to" Musician" in the posthumous edition however, few >of his musical friend's knew how to deal with him. And he didn't know how to deal with himself, the predicament and promise of being "the world's greatest [electric] bass player." Once drugs and fame kicked in, then neither when he was manic nor when depressive could he get a grip on his condition, his life. Bruce M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:28:24 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Beat of Black wings...(NJC) In some interview, on some tree, in my big drawer of tapes, Joni discusses this cut. She says that after a concert at, I believe it was Fort Bragg, a black soldier (Killer Kyle) returning from Vietnam showed up in her dressing room. Among other things, he said to her something like "How can you be singing songs about love, sister? There ain't no love left in this world". I think this explains the Charlie Angel thing pretty well...the love song Johnny Angel...distorted...dissonant FMYFL@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/23/00 3:24:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > polifkas@milwaukee.tec.wi.us writes: > > << Do you remember that song that was popular by Shelley Fabares "Johnny > Angel, how I love you..." ? > The phrasing and > notes are very similar, hence my reason for believing this. > Anyone recall or have this song? >> > > Steve, that's exactly what I always thought too! I might be lyrically > impaired, but I think Joni intentionally used Shelly's version of "Johnny > Angel" whether or not she's saying Charlie or Johnny. > > Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:45:26 EDT From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Cagney and Lacey(NJC) Is anyone watching the C&L reruns on TNN?It really was a great show,one of my favorite's. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:17:09 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: Unheard Joni Albums Hi, Bruce. I, for one, really enjoyed your dissection of Hissing. It would be very interesting to read your analyses of all those Joni albums you've not yet encountered, or to which you have only minimal exposure (ditto this to other JMDLers...Loree, for instance, mentioned not having heard TTT yet, and it would be fun to read her review once she does). Seeing as how you just listened to DJRD for only the second time, how 'bout reviewing that one for us? CMIARS (if you haven't already been bombarded with answers) is the acronym for Chalk Mark In A Rainstorm, the follow-up to DED. "Boston Jim" P.S. I couldn't agree more re Wayne Shorter. Not to knock Weather Report one bit, but Shorter's contributions to Blakey's and Miles' bands were even more brilliant, as were his Blue Note albums in the '60s. His work really helped move the music forward. > > Not only have I not heard CMIARS, I don't even recognize the acronym. > Gulp. It turns out that while I am a hardcore Hissing FANatic, I'm not very, > er, "developed" as a Joni fan. (Please don't hate me!) I was so bummed by > Hejira that I tossed it out the window after two listens. Now I just > recently listened to DED and DJRD (for the second time?) which I dug out of > my cob-webbed collection of vinyl since I've been going through this > intense re-appreciation of Hissing... > > --sheepishly, > > Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:16:01 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Cagney and Lacey(NJC) In a message dated 6/23/00 5:50:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Relayer211@aol.com writes: << Is anyone watching the C&L reruns on TNN?It really was a great show,one of my favorite's. >> i haven't seen that show in years but i did like it. tough ass girls, with a soft side, doing cop things in the big city. always looking for a better car to drive. pat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:41:24 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: Unheard Joni Albums "Boston Jim" wrote: >JMDLers...Loree, for instance, mentioned not having heard TTT yet, and it >would be fun to read her review once she does sure . . . whenever I purchase it! Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:07:25 -0400 From: Walter R Rodgers III Subject: shocking lyrics Harper Lou, not trying to pick a fight... but the subject brings to mind "Brown Sugar"... still can't believe no one says a word about all the airplay it gets, to this day... must be the guitar riff... walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:15:04 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Unheard Joni Albums << It turns out that while I am a hardcore Hissing FANatic, I'm not very, er, "developed" as a Joni fan. (Please don't hate me!) I was so bummed by Hejira that I tossed it out the window after two listens. Now I just recently listened to DED and DJRD (for the second time?) which I dug out of my cob-webbed collection of vinyl since I've been going through this intense re-appreciation of Hissing... >> OK, Bruce, that explains some stuff. You are such a good writer with such insight, but it seemed like it was always "Hissings", "Hissings", "Hissings"...I'm thinking to myself "is this the only Joni record this guy owns?" Seems I was almost right! :-) But don't worry, bro, nobody's gonna hate you. I had never heard her debut before I signed up here and picked it up. Anyway, now I'm psyched to hear what you have to say about those other deep, jazz-inflected gems of Joni's! Bob NP: Heart, "Magic Man" Live and rockin'! Thanks Nikki! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:58:37 EST From: "James Phillips" Subject: Catman-NJC Dear list - I've been somewhat silent until now on the subject of Catman Colin because I thought that non-issue of Jim L from Ohio putting words into Colin's mouth to the effect that Colin was/is a fascist would go by the wayside, but it hasn't. Can we please just give this issue a damn rest, please? Maybe Colin is just lurking around, or is on holiday. It's his business if he decides to post or not, and leave if he wants to or not. Respectfully, James Phillips Now playing Songs to a Seagull by Joni Mitchell ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:01:26 EST From: "James Phillips" Subject: happy Joni songs Dear list - On the thread of happy Joni songs - it's really hard to find any:) but I would think that Happiness is the best face lift off of Taming the Tiger has a bittersweet happiness to it, in my opinion. Same thought and sentiment goes for Big Yellow Taxi as well. This does remind me of something Lucinda Williams said in an interview w/ Rolling Stone, and I think it could be applied to Joni as well, that nobody writes happy songs, for God's sake. James Phillips ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:04:05 EST From: "James Phillips" Subject: going on a holidayNJC God, I'm at my quota of posts today:) I'm taking the day away on Sunday for the St. Louis gay pride parade, which is the first time I've ever been to St. Louis. It promises to be fun, from what I understand anyways. Of course, on the car trip down, you bet that I'll be playing some Joni:) James Phillips, Champaign, IL USA ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:14:29 -0500 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: JONI AND PAT Phil said.... It's great to see fan interest in a Joni / Pat Metheny reunion, and heartening to see that Pat was quoted in the Q+A section as having some interest in in another collaboration, since recent JMDL threads have suggested otherwise. Obviously, whatever negatives Pat remembers from the Shadows and Light daze have long since passed, and I drool at the prospect of a Mitchell / Metheny joint venture coming to fruition. Another former Joni confident, Robben Ford, was quoted in an interview as saying that he would love to play again with Joni, and that too would be a special treat. Robben is simply in a class by himself, as is Metheny, and it would be sincerely gratifying for these musical relationships to "come full circle".....the outcome might be groundbreaking yet again!! How about re-uniting the Shadows and Light band, { Michael Brecker, Metheny, Lyle Mays}, with maybe Brian Blade on drums,{ Don Alias on percussion this time}, and LK subbing for Jaco. Wow!!! Dave F. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:38:41 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: m & m NJC I think I am the one who started this whole thing with an offhanded remark about the music biz. I still haven't heard anything that convinces me that Eminem is very creative, funny, or talented. I am open to being conviced! He has a right to say what he wants & yes there have been similar artists throughout time that have said many shocking sorts of things (Jim Morrison, This Is the End where he rants Mother, etc. comes to mind as sort of an Eminem-like idea). But the difference as I see it, is that he had lots of other things to say. From what I have heard of Eminem so far, he seems quite limited in his subject matter. In my opinion, Eminem needs some serious therapy, not a record deal. Still he has a right to express himself however he pleases & getting it out can indeed be therapeutic (for him). However, my objection has never been with Emimem--it has been with the record company executives that promote him. Along with the tv executives that promote violent cartoons, the software executives that promote violent video games, the news executives that promote the negative news (over & over), etc. It is with those in power, in leadership positions, who have a choice & choose to appeal to basest instincts of humanity because for some reason, it sells product. This is because I believe media is both a reflection & an influence on our culture. Jim said "but what of the many young men (kids, really) that take his > point of view at face value, and as something "cool and sexy" to be > emulated" and Michael replied, "They aren't intelligent enough to encounter the work? That's awfully anti-democratic." I don't think Jim was referring to people your age, he was referring to young kids, and I agree with him. It is a reality of child development, not one of democracy. Which is why we have driving ages, voting ages, drinking ages, etc. As imperfect as they are. I know I am an idealist. I want the world to be a place where the higher aspects of humans are brought into the spotlight. And I believe the majority of people out there are compassionate, peace loving, etc. I want these kinds of things to be the ones that bring in the bottom line. I am tired of seeing & hearing, so much anger & violence. It is creepy & scary hearing about all these group attacks against women in LA & NYC. I have usually felt safe, walking alone in both of these cities, and many others, my whole life but never EVER have I had to consider the reality of this kind of insanity before. Maybe it is all coincidental, but maybe it is not. Kate Bennett Singer/Songwriter www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:39:22 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC thanks for the tip, loree. i've just posted my comment and encourage everyone to follow suit. it's fun to do a little joni-basher bashing!!! wallyk > >To participate in the Rolling Stone Magazine "Message Board" for our own > >Lady Of Duality, go to: > >http://www.rollingstone.com/sections/boards/text/default.asp?afl=&comingfro m=artist&aid=360 > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:45:22 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings From: Wally Kairuz > i think it is "up on your wing, way up". Coincidentally I was listening to this yesterday in the car... loud. Wally, that is exactly what I hear. Up on your wing, wa-ay up-pp Patricia O'Connor p.a.oconnor@att.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:07:49 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: happy Joni songs From: James Phillips > > On the thread of happy Joni songs - it's really hard to find any:) but I > would think that Happiness is the best face lift off of Taming the Tiger has > a bittersweet happiness to it, in my opinion. Same thought and sentiment > goes for Big Yellow Taxi as well. Shiny Toys from the much maligned DED is very happy song. Patricia O'Connor p.a.oconnor@att.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:21:54 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: happy Joni songs "Night in the City," from "Joni Mitchell." --Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:26:10 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Beat of Black Wings which makes us both equally aurally endowed or hearing impaired! hug, wally o K > Coincidentally I was listening to this yesterday in the car... loud. > Wally, that is exactly what I hear. > > Up on your wing, wa-ay up-pp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:23:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC Wally K wrote: >thanks for the tip, loree. i've just posted my comment and >encourage everyone to follow suit. it's fun to do a little joni->basher bashing!!! I just re-visited the site once again and read the latest. Everyone's posts have been great. When Loree first alerted us I went over there and found some of the postings so vile that rather than want to post some positive right away, I needed time to get away from the content and take a longer look. The next time I looked, the most offensive and vilest of the posts by "Carly Rocks" had been removed. Then I noticed that most of the vile posts were originating by this poster. Tonight I wondered if there was something brewing over on the Carly message board that had prompted this. I found good old "Carly Rocks" had indeed incited the crowd over there a few months ago in a Carly vs. Joni war. However, only a couple people took the bait and other posters for the most part ignored it. "Carly Rocks" then never posted again to the Carly board but instead went back over the last month or so to the Joni board continue to shit all over it but never went back to the Carly board until June 11th to say he/she was tired of all his/her work bashing Joni for now but would carry on later. A few days later Loree sent her first of the positive postings and "Carly Rocks" returned again with another blast but seems to be "resting" again for now. "Carly" has spent more time on the Joni board than anywhere else at this point! If people want to carry on the campaign for Joni, they may want to post some positive words on the Carly board while they are at it! ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:44:59 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Message of thankyou from Kevin (NJC) From: "Kevin J Hall" Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:09:17 +0100 My computer is going back to the repair center for the fourth time tomorrow and so I cant email anyone I'll be off the list for another week or so but wanted to thank all the beautiful people who sent me messages of support yesterday I feel much better for them and cant express how moved I have been all day by the warmth shown to me. When everything is up and running again I will write you all and by then things may have worked out. It has been such a hard few months but I gain strength from the love that surrounds me and is so freely expressed my this wonderful family. Thankyou Bob Thankyou Wally Thankyou Rob Thankyou Chris Thankyou Sue Thankyou Kenny. Talk soon Love Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:47:34 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: happy Joni songs In a message dated 6/23/2000 11:33:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Murphycopy@aol.com writes: << Night in the City," from "Joni Mitchell." --Bob I always thought Carey was a happy song too!! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:48:41 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: My Best To You Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:50:45 +0100 From: catman As I am not subbed I guess this will bounce and I hope Les will pass it on. I have left the list, for the time being. The reasons are many. Recently, the list has not been the same. There have always been debates and strong feelings expressed but it usually fell short of name calling. It seems the ability to have debate without being nasty and personal has been lost, temporarily I am sure. I would be a liar if I said I was not negatively affected by the Colin is fascist thread. Howver, it is over and done with. I waited a while but I let Jim know privately just what i think. Being called a fascist/hate monger was not the issue for me-being lied about was. The matter is over. It was also initmated by someone else that I may have driven Jim over the edge by sending him nasty private emails. This was not the case at all. It was also intimated to me that i was the cause of all the bickering on the list. I have seen in my almost 3 week absense that this is also not the case. Almost evrything I posted was seen by this person as an attack on them. I was also derided for having been so open on this list about my feelings and life.I have only once written an email that was very stronlgy worded, privately, and I told someone exactly what i thought of them and why i didn't like them. In fact i have never before in my life been that blunt to anyone. I believe in lookng for the good in people. Those of you who have been around as long as I have will know I am bipolar. How could you misss it when you rememebr those 20-30 posts a day! I am still med free and have not been away with the fairies or in hell for a long time now. However, I still have my swings, only less severe. This last few months have been difficult and I got to the point where I had begun to think life was not worth the struggle. These feelings, the night terrors back again, the fear, the volatile moods, and finally the list wars made me jump ship. And get myself back into therapy!!! Just when you think the shit is ovver and done with it uups and hits you in the balls. Abuse and its after effects never truly leave you. So my leaving is a combination of persoanl things and not because I was called a fascist/hate monger. I am togethr enough to know that isn't true! Personally, i think the reason for this hiccup is because we have now been here 15mths and I have had time to unwind. Life has calmed down. before the move everything was so tense all the time. Now it isn't and those bastard demons have taken the opportuntiy to surface. Although not pleasant, i am glad for this opportunity to clean house some more and to grow. So please, just let this all drop now. I should think i will be back. I haven't been able to just ignore it-one because people have written to me and two because I can't resist taking a peek at the digests posted on the smoe server! I don't know whetehr to be flattered or embarrassed that you are still talking about me! At least i won't embarrass myself by writing out my inner turmoil this time to the list. Another good reason to leave for now. luv colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:50:00 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC kakki! what masterly investigative job you've done! i'm going to the carly board right away to see what's cooking! kakki rocks! wally der K >If people > want to carry on the campaign for Joni, they may want to post some positive > words on the Carly board while they are at it! ;-) > > Kakki > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:14:44 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! (NJC) Jim Leonard said: > "I'm sorry, Dylan Kleibold and Eric Harris? You > > guys are far too influenced by this type of thing. Here's a Kenny G disc for > > each of you. Michael Yarbrough? You passed. Here's your Eminem." And Michael Yarbrough responded > I understand you're being facetious, I don't think that statement was facetious. Columbine was real. The murder of Matthew Shepherd was real. > but I reiterate that the concerns you > all supposedly have are not limited to rap music and have been extant > throughout the history of popular music and art itself. All distinctions > of this type are to an extent socially constructed and view some points > as salient while overlooking others. If we test potential audiences of > Eminem, then must we also test audiences of Johnny Cash, Homer or > Machiavelli? Yes, exactly, I agree, Michael, and thus we struggle with Wagner - great musician and racist anti-Semitic hater whose (later) operas are musical masterpieces and yet filled with racist ideology, and whose hate and music found fullest expression as the music of the Holocaust. Beyruth after all became the day camp for Hitler and the Nazis. With R. Strauss the same question, although a bit less intensive. > > > Many of you learned the value of an open mind during your experiences in > the late '60s and '70s. And I do prefer lyrics about come on people now, try to love one another... jet planes turn into butterflies... if you want money for people with minds that hate, all I can tell you brother is, you have to wait... I prefer that to: do I hate fags, yes. > I'm challenging you to continue that lesson > further, if not to understand Eminem, at least to understand hip-hop. > Michael, I do understand and appreciate hip hop. I agree with you that the subject title of this thread, "junk food for juveniles," is demeaning. I happened to be in a space and place when hip hop first came out (and many years after) where I was able to truly appreciate and admire hip hop. I even stated in my first post on this that there is some real musical ability in Eminem's work. But hate is hate. Hate is hate. Charles Manson had some musical ability too. It is what you do with the gift, with the talent. I for one have always argued that "Natural Born Killers" is a great movie because it exposes the violent subtext of our society. It is not violence for the sake of violence, not hate, but an exploration of the violence with underlies our culture. If you wish to argue that Eminen does that, you may, but I will strenuously disagree, and reasonable minds may disagree. It is simply my observation that Eminem talks trash for the money and hate because that is where he is clearly at, that he is a hater, and that I object to. Just like Tupac. And thus I find it no surprise that Tupac died violently and that Emenem is facing very serious assault charges. The hate there is real. I hate to compare generations, that is so facile and unfair. I will observe from my own life experience that hate breeds hate. If anyone wishes to ban or burn Eminem's albums, I would totally oppose that for I agree with you that censorship is wrong. But I will state that it is also of ultimate importance that we teach our children that hate is hate and Eminem's lyrical work is vicious and vile and must be rejected despite any musical merit it may have. Eminem is old enough to that actions have consequences and that words have meanings and that each person must take responsibility for what they do. And it is frightening that so much homophobic music sold so quickly. Put the picture of Matthew Shepherd in your mind. Would you play Eminem for his parents? How would you look the Sheperds in the eye, or Matthew if you could, and justify - not the music - but the lyrics? No more than I can justify Wagner's hate (while admitting his musical genius) in the light of Holocaust. Your point that we must evaluate Eminem with the same standards as we do others is valid. Machiavelli: fascist. Johnny Cash: damn fine musician. Homer: brilliant poet with a very culturally narrow world view. Wagner: an evil genius. Eminem: I hope and pray that he is merely this month's flavor of disgust and not ultimately remembered as anything more than a "what ever happened to..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:34:40 -0600 From: evian Subject: More Metheny (njc) > He's standing up for all musicians of high integrity. His > main beef is not with Kenny G's inferiority (though I know that's how he > feels and I can't blame him) but with the sacrilegious and bogus act of using > Armstrong as a crutch for creativity. To me it's sort of like using a > paint-by-number and calling it art > First off, Kenny G and Metheny are not even in the same league, nor do they appeal to the same kind of fans. I can't believe I am defending Kenny G, because frankly, his looks alone give me the willies, but for the love of God, he's not Hilter. Yes, he is king of FM Lite Radio, and maybe he does "give *real* jazz (whatever that is) a bad name," but they obviously are not in the same league, have different fan bases, and big whoopity-doo if he "Uses Armstrong as a crutch for creativity." I have not heard it, so I can't comment on it, and while it very probably is in bad taste, I really don't think we should be hanging the man for it. Should be stone almost every contemporary artist for sampling? Don't you think ole Ludwig is rolling over in his grave for Joni being so preposterous to actually write about him? Yes, I know it's not the same thing, but as somebody posted, there ARE two sides to every story, and Kenny G really isn't the big evil antichrist he has been made out to be. As for Metheny being "a person of principle and integrity", how can anyone here say that Kenny G isn't just because he plays schlocky music? I am uncomfortable with these value judgements. Do you honestly thing Kenny G sat there and shook his curly mop, with an evil grin, saying "I am going to masacre the classics." Also, the comment that Metheny is "Standing up for all artists of high integrity" really bothers me. Again, I think that it is presumptious for any of us to say that Kenny G doesn't have integrity because he doesn't play "The real jazz" and because he used the Armstrong song. To me, this kind of thinking is just so elitist -- you know, the "the only real artists are Dylan and Joni and a handful of others that are too good to be played on the radio" type of thing. For me, I don't want to spend 24 hours a day listening to "Serious" artists. I'll have my Joni dose, and the others, but damn, I quite enjoy giving some time to Ministry or NIN or Skinny Puppy or some other industrial music, and then getting my toe tapping in the car with one of those JMDL-dreaded "boy bands" (horror of horrors!), or getting a chuckle when the Dixie Chicks kill Earl, and singing along with our secretary to "The Pina Colada Song" on the oldies station we both listen to. I mean, for the love of God, it's only rock and roll. Finally, I resent the notion that we dismiss Kenny G, or whoever, as not creating art. Again, I find this elitist and unfair for us to snobbishly dismiss what someone does as "not being real art." Bob, you better send me every cheesy disc you got, since I think I could really appreciate it. Happy Weekend, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:43:10 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC well, i've been naughty and i've posted on the carly simon message "bored". he he he .... wally das > If people > want to carry on the campaign for Joni, they may want to post some positive > words on the Carly board while they are at it! ;-) > > Kakki > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:11:31 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings (NJC) Bob M. wrote: > <<....the "beat of black wings" is the "thwack-thwack-thwack..." of the helicopter > rotors.>> > > you mentioned Kate Bush, Billy Joel also employs the > sound effect to good use in "Goodnight Saigon". Also on the title track of Patti Smith's latest, "Gung Ho" (which has to be one of the best things she's ever done). - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:35:02 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Buy CDs & Help JMDL Help JMDL & buy CDs at the same time! http://www.cdnow.com/from=sr-159240 http://cdu2.cduniverse.com/asp/cdu_main.asp?frm=lk_jmdl Each of these e-stores will refund 5% of sales made from these links to offset the cost of operating the Joni Mitchell Discussion List. Please consider using them as a way to help Les with the cost of operating JMDL. In fact, if you bookmark these URLs, it will all happen automatically. As the song says, "More fulfilling -and less frustrating." All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati, USA ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #353 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?