From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #352 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Friday, June 23 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 352 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: what's the most happiest joni song? ["Phil Klein" ] Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days [AngelinoCoyote@aol.com] Re: Beat of Black Wings [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] additional joni sightings [PFallo@aol.com] Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! [Louis Lynch ] Re: positive comments - ps... ["Joni Fan" ] Re: Beat of Black Wings [B Merrill ] Re: Beat of Black Wings ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: Beat of Black Wings [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Beat of Black Wings [Don Rowe ] (NJC)Eminem Melt Down ["Susan" ] Re: Beat of Black Wings ["James L. Leonard" ] Out The Door (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: positive comments - ps... ["Joni Fan" ] happy songs and Canadian accents [Bounced Message ] fucking music playing for the beat of blackwings ["Ada Wittenberger" ] Re: positive comments - ps... ["Joni Fan" ] Attention Bostonians!!!!!!! [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Unheard Joni Albums ["Joni Fan" ] Re: Beat of Black Wings [Catherine McKay ] Re: Beat of Black Wings [Catherine McKay ] Good News!! (NJC) [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Possible Reason catman Is On Hiatus and more (LONG) [Ginamu@aol.com] RE: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! (NJC) [michael w yarbrough ] Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! (NJC) ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: Beat of Black wings...(NJC) [Catherine McKay Subject: Re: what's the most happiest joni song? Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:02:04 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: what's the most happiest joni song? >Ada Wittenberger asks: > >"what's the most happiest joni song??????????? >Morning Morgantown has to be up there among the happiest. At >least it's >a >song that put me in a very good mood with Sunday brunch and >made me want >to >wink at total strangers passing. >Cassy I agree that it sounds like a happy song, but its a bitter/sweet song tinged with sadness when you realise its addressed to her (at that time) 3 or 4 year old daughter, given up for adoption some years before. This has been discussed before on the list - it makes sense when you read these lyrics: "We'll find a table in the shade And sip our tea and lemonade..." i.e. Joni has tea, the little girl lemonade. "I'd like to buy you everything A wooden bird with painted wings A window full of colored rings In morning, Morgantown. But the only thing I have to give To make you smile, to win you with Are all the mornings still to live In morning, Morgantown" i.e. she doesn't have the present, only possibly the future, which, happily, eventually proved to be correct! Hope I haven't ruined the song for anyone! Incidentally, I think This and Little Green are in the same tuning, which also fits with the lost daughter theme. At least I play them in the same tuning, basically drop 5th and 1st string by a tone. My own vote for happiest song is "Chelsea Morning", FWIW. Phil - delurking - first post for about a year. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:42:20 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Walecki interview/More benefit info John, That is very nice of you to suggest one of the local SoCal'ers interview Freddie and possibly Joni if Les can't do it. I hope Les can do it. He did such a great job with his interview lunch with Joni a few years ago. But if he can't I really think you should try to get out here to do the interview. You've done so well establishing a friendship with him and you all seem to be very comfortable with each other. Plus, you are a great story-relater! I'm sad to hear about his condition. One of these days I'm going to bop into Westwood Music and maybe say hello to him. A number of us are now planning to go to his benefit here in August. Another night has been added, so it will be August 8th and 9th. Some of us already had tix to Sting on the 8th and so will be going on the 9th. Leslie Mixon and maybe some others will be there on the 8th. So anyone out there who is thinking about going, please let us know so we can meet up. Coyote Rick and I are springing for the "Silver Circle" seats (we got 3rd row - whoo hoo!). The "Golden and Silver" tickets are only available through the Guacamole Fund - call 1-(800) 728-6223. The regular tickets go on sale this Saturday through Ticketmaster and all seats are $48.00 each. I can't wait - it should be an amazing event. Kakki NP: Julia Fordham - Hope, Prayer and Time ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:03:34 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: what's the most happiest joni song? In a message dated 6/23/00 4:43:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, phy6pgk@phys-irc.novell.leeds.ac.uk writes: << My own vote for happiest song is "Chelsea Morning", FWIW. >> Mine goes to "Underneath the Streetlights." There is no equal among her songs for her unrestrained exuberance. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:40:48 +1000 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Possible Reason catman Is On Hiatus It's a pity that Colin was crucified on the list and is still labelled as a "Hate Monger". Some of us really appreciated his contributions to the list. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:44:50 -0700 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (NJC) > Nazareth - This Flight Tonight: Not bad enough to be good, just real bad. > Cringe. Did I say that I met Nezareth's tour manager in a bar in Boston last year? Went to a blues bar with him, then met some nice lady from a record company who's husband had produced Luther Vandros and Stevie Wonder. Small world, I guess. Mind you, the stories about various rock stars were quite funny. How _does_ Rod Stewart do it??? - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:20:35 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings Does anyone know the words of the little chant that's going on in the background ? It comes in.at the start of the song and during the Charlie bits. thanks, Philip NP Number One ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:20:26 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Eminem (NJC) This little creep is getting far too much attention for my liking. His voice is an annoying whine and he's got no rap skills . I'm not going to waste too much time on him. The talk about role playing, holding a mirror up to society etc is a flag of convenience to sell product. His sick vitriol sounds real enough to me. He's out on bail and hopefully when they put him away he'll take his limp raps with him. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:16:57 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: Re: Nuriel, Cut It Out s o r r y - sorry Catrina, sorry Paul, sorry everyone - it'll never happen again. please forgive me. yours, nuriel. (ada's son) >From: Siresorrow@aol.com >To: wittadi@hotmail.com, joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Nuriel, Cut It Out >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:15:51 EDT > >Nuriel, > >You took a private post of Catrin's and posted it to the list. You also >did >it with Paul. At the time of Paul's post, I thought it was justifiable. >Now, I'm starting to think Paul's instincts were not so off base. > >I've asked you to identify yourself as either Nuriel or Ada, a young person >or an older person. You have not answered. You've lost my consideration. >And taking private posts to the list is a major mistake on this list. So >please, stop doing that and let old flames die out. Pat ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:58:08 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) Kakki wrote: << I've been waiting so impatiently for this one and I must say it lives up to it's pre-release press. Thank you Bob, it's brilliantly awful! Love the disc art, too - haha! I got my covers 3,4 & 5 yesterday too. Naturally I had to put on the "cheese" disc first. Well, let me tell you what happen next my friends. I started to hear noises in the kitchen.... from the cupboard, from the refrigerator, from other cabinets. The rattling noises got louder and louder. I had to stack chairs and other pieces of furniture against all of these bulging doors. As Doris Day started to sing "Both Sides Now," it was just too much. The cabinets overloaded And the crackers started flying And the loose tooth picks Were lashing out at me I'm not going to clean this up Too easy Thanks Mr. Muller for a wonderful "party, cocktail mix" CD. I only wish Wayne Newton would have done a Joni cover. I can't wait to play this at my next party. It will certainly be an icebreaker :~) Seriously Bob, to you and all of the contributors, I want to thank you for all the hard work on the covers project. Now I can't wait for the covers that Wally B. had tucked away. Happy Friday Everyone! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:01:25 EDT From: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days In a message dated 6/22/00 9:42:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << Maybe it will rebel back the other way to sugar poppy-boppy >> Anybody remember Jam-Up and Jelly Tight or Canned Ham? The latter came with it's own cheese (and rye)! :-) No regrets, Coyote (Rick) Casa Alegre Hollywood, California I'll be dancin' on a pony keg. ------------------------------ Date: Fri Jun 23 08:01:27 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings <> No problem with disputing me, Bev - that's what a discussion list is all about! Especially OK to dispute when I make a statement that's blatantly incorrect... Thanks for clearing it up, I knew "Charlie" referred to one or the other, so I had a 50% shot. ;~) Bob NP: Wally K, "The Circle Game" ------------------------------ Date: Fri Jun 23 08:24:22 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! <> "Brilliantly awful"...I like that! ;~) My comments follow... <> I did a Danny Thomas coffee take with this one! LOL! But you know, the guitar part *is* very pretty... <> If you think THIS one is danceable, wait til you hear the Viola Wells version - it gets the Lipps Inc. "Funkytown" treatment! But that's another Volume, another day. <> Yes - truly wretched. And a "Star Trek does Joni" update - Nikki had copied the "Wm. Shatner" BSN for me from the internet, but it ended up being this one...thanks anyway, Nikki! You're building up "Covers Bonus Points" - trade 'em for valuable prizes! :~) <> Possibly the walking definition of Joni cheese! <> I really debated with putting this one on the disc. In my impatience, not knowing if I'd get a full disc of cheese, I added it just because of her vocal struggle with the 15-step leap on "You know it...SURE is hard to leave...". She does 3 other Joni tunes, and they're really super. She'll be back and get her due! <> But you gotta love those do-do-do's! <> Yes, a real find - thanks to Leslie! Boston Jim nailed this one, saying it was "Association-ish". <> What is up with this abortion of her original lyrics? All you songwriters out there...what's the law around doing someone else's song but doing major lyric alterations? <> Oh worry not about more cheese - there's plenty more, but I'll not contain so much dreck on one disc again, rather it'll be tucked away along with the others... And of course, cheese is always in the ear of the beholder anyway! Bob NP: Marcel Deste, "Cactus Tree" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:28:05 EDT From: PFallo@aol.com Subject: additional joni sightings there's a photo of joni posing with steve macklam, diana krall, lawrence fishburne and larry klein in the july 2000 issue of jazz times. the caption reads: "the stars came out for diana krall's two sold-out shows at los angeles' royce hall. from left to right: krall's manager steve macklam, the grammy-winner herself (diana krall), actor lawrence fishburne, jazz-folk diva joni mitchell and producer-musician larry klein." also, on the pat metheny group discussion page called american garage, a thread has developed asking pat whether he would consider playing with joni again. about a half dozen reponses from listers but no response from metheny yet. you can find american garage at http://www.patmethenygroup.com/af/index-garage.html phil ------------------------------ Date: Fri Jun 23 08:31:24 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Cheese rev-eiuuuuu! (SJC) <> Yes indeed, Jimmy, many thanks and blessings to the contributors for this one, namely: 1. Adrienne Barbeau – I Had a King (Stephen) 2. Claudine Longet – Both Sides Now (Coyote Rick) 3. Boomtang Boys – Both Sides Now (Catherine "Maxigirl") 4. Kathie Lee Gifford – Born For You/Circle Game (Stephen) 5. Leonard Nimoy – Both Sides Now (Philip) 6. Nazareth – This Flight Tonight (Me) 7. Doris Day – Both Sides Now (Stephen) 8. Hole – Both Sides Now (Garrett) 9. Trish Colter/Paul Read – Carey (Me) 10. Mabel Mercer – Both Sides Now (Stephen) 11. Carteret High School Choir – Both Sides Now (Stephen) 12. Jim Nabors – Both Sides Now (Jimmy) 13. Elvis Presley – (You’re So Square) Baby, I Don’t Care (Me) 14. The Tokens – Both Sides Now (Leslie) 15. Anne Murray – Both Sides Now (Leslie) 16. Billy Squier – River (Frank T.) 17. Robert Goulet – Both Sides Now (Leslie) Bob NP: Marcel Deste, "For Free" (love that mandolin!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 06:34:08 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! Rick and Don, Yes, past generations have been shocked by their children's music, Elvis, then the Beatles, Jefferson Aircraft, Alice Cooper, etc. I remember my parents worrying because I went crazy over the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. However, I don't ever remember any of those "shockers" using lyrics about raping their mothers, hideously violent acts, degradation of women, etc. Sex, drugs and rock & roll is VERY different from incest, murder and misogyny. No way will I accept that it is "EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!" as Coyote claims. If you're defending freedom of speech and expression, fine, he's free to say what he wants, although the thought of him receiving major airtime is frightening. But if you think it's just another harmless matter of kids shocking their parents with their art, that goes over like a lead balloon, lead lead balloon. The lyrics are appalling and criminal, and simply cannot be defended or rationalized. Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:01:55 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: Ironically Joni and Eminem Wow! I went to amazon.com today, and found quick picks for Joni and Eminem on the first page. Blindness, blindness and sight. Harper Lou ======================== Joni Mitchell, Taming The Tiger Following the Grammy triumph of Turbulent Indigo by four years, Joni Mitchell rewards our wait with an album that's even better. Taming the Tiger finds Mitchell playing her guitar through a Roland VG8, adding fresh texture to her continuing musical association with Wayne Shorter's sax and the rhythm... More Quick Picks: Eminem, The Marshall Mathers LP His second album finds Eminem struggling to contain the pressures of success. And he's dealing it with it disgracefully. The Detroit rapper's multiple identities are more mixed up than ever, with Marshall Mathers fighting for prominence against his alter egos: Eminem, Slim Shady, Kenneth Kaniff, and his public image. Don't be fooled by the album... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:14:16 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: positive comments - ps... Pat, First of all, I appreciate the majority of your kind words. But I am likewise "almost as old as Joni" and certainly am wise and experienced by the years. I do not appreciate your inference that I am not. We all certainly choose our battles, as do I. What I do not do is tell people that what they pursue is a "waste of time." They choose their battles for their own reasons. The years have taught me to respect others causes and not to negate it. I generally find people downplay others causes out of their own fears. The www.rollingstone.com board has changed, so I am pleased. It is a small amount of effort to post a message; hardly a battle. It makes the board available again for positive comments. If neglected I'm sure negative factors will return. That is the flow of life. Lastly, you placed a copy of a personal e-mail in your last posting that I sent only to you, Pat. As I understand, that is not approved on the list and I trusted that it would remain as such . . . a personal e-mail. We all have Joni in our souls, we are all Joni-like. Like energy is drawn to like energy. I loved reading your causes . . . your history. May the road laid down before you continue to be as rich. Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:52:44 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings gene mock wrote: >then again, "the beat of black wings" could be the human wave assaults the >vc's made on our positions. viet cong were often characterized by wearing >black pajamas. "charlie angel" could be a vc that "killer kyle" killed. >what do you think? take care gene I don't know this song (mea culpa) but if the context is the Vietnam war, my first guess would be that the "beat of black wings" is the "thwack-thwack-thwack..." of the helicopter rotors. Does that work? (Also used to great effect in Kate Bush's great "Pull out the Pin.")] Meanwhile, "Johnny Angel" also turns up in 10cc's "Johnny Don't Do It." I'm sure it's the same dude. He was so beautiful...., that he had to die. Bruce M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:11:34 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings It works for me. That has always been my interpretation, at any rate. "Boston Jim" > my first guess would be that the "beat of black wings" is the > "thwack-thwack-thwack..." of the helicopter rotors. Does that work? > > > Bruce M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri Jun 23 11:16:12 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings <> So, you've got a homework assignment Bruce...CMIARS! ;~) <> I would say it does - you mentioned Kate Bush, Billy Joel also employs the sound effect to good use in "Goodnight Saigon". Bob NP: Catgirl, "BYT" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:27:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings According to my uncle, a Vietnam veteran, in his unit the term "Charlie Angel" referred specifically to Med-Evac helicopter transports called in to remove the wounded from the battlefields. Don Rowe ===== "I do not object to others hiding from history. What I object to are others hiding history from ME." - -- Shelby Foote __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:45:42 -0500 From: "Susan" Subject: (NJC)Eminem Melt Down Don Rowe wrote: > But honestly, when we were young'uns, holed up in our > rooms with our blacklight posters, listening to "The > End", or "White Rabbit", "Helter Skelter" or the > others ... did our folks find that every bit as > shocking than this? > > Harper Lou worte > >> However, I visited the website with Eminem's lyrics. What disgusting rot! >> It's not even worth the words I would need to condemn it properly. The >> boy's obviously just plain ignorant and base. >> >> Given Eminem's attitude toward women, gays, mothers, and mammals in >> general ... >> As far as Eminem is concerned I totally agree with Harper Lou. But I am also aware of the particular point Don Rowe is making here. We can't stop the art nor can we begin to sound like our parents! I caught myself doing this a few years ago and I could not support my own actions based on what I believe about freedom of expression. I recall how shocking our parents found our music and we couldn't comprehend their objections. However, being a supporter of the arts and freedom from censorship, I don't want to stop him from this expression. But I just hope that people do not subscribe to it, in mass throngs. Just as I was turned into a "freak" in my day, and glad of it thank you, I hope that young artists today do find their own style or niche in music or whatever art form. It's just the hate, the violence, misogyny and homophobia - that's what bothers me. The first time I ever heard rap was about 15 years ago, the song was so disgusting, I can't repeat it here. Overall musically I think most of it is very uncreative, in my opinion. There certainly is a union of old music with a different sound or beat that is somewhat creative. But I don't think most of these people have any kind of a good singing voice or sound. On the other hand a very few do bring a voice style to the music. I guess overall I see it as about 25% creative and the rest gets bogged down by the violence and lack of any true musical talent. The bottom line is for the amount of good (dare I say) music that comes out of this genre, it doesn't warrant the high level of exposure attention and dollars being poured into it. There are good young creative artists of all sorts out there who do not to subscribe to this evil art! We need to be supporting them and encouraging them. We don't want them to create the same sounds we or our peers did, we are just looking for creativity, art and quality. I am excited and interested to think about all the possibilities. So let's not be our parents but let's not be bullied by this faction of the music industry either. Peace Susan P. S. W-SOX WIN! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:50:41 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings Another *great* use of the 'copter sound effect can be found in the live version of "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls" from the album Travels, by the Pat Metheny Group (of all people). :-) "Boston Jim" > I would say it does - you mentioned Kate Bush, Billy Joel also employs the sound effect to good use in "Goodnight Saigon". > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:48:14 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Out The Door (NJC) I am out the ddo to meet the family for the weekend in Florida (to do a little shark hunting). Hope everyone has a great weekend and I will talk to you guys next week Peace Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:56:58 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: positive comments - ps... >Lastly, you placed a copy of a personal e-mail in your last posting that I >sent only to you, Pat. As I understand, that is not approved on the list >and I trusted that it would remain as such . . . a personal e-mail. > My apologies to Pat on this folks! My mistake on her last e-mail! Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:05:33 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: happy songs and Canadian accents Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Stoy Two songs come to mind when I think of Joni being happy and contented: Chelsea Morning ("Woke up, it was a Chelsea morning and the first thing that I saw was the sun through yellow curtains and a rainbow on the wall") and Night Ride Home ("I love the man beside me. We love the open road. No phones til Friday-- far from the overkill, far from the overload.") Bob wrote that he doesn't really hear Joni's accent in her singing voice, and while it IS more evident when she speaks, I hear that wonderful accent poking through all the time in her songs. You can hear it in: - --any word with "-ar", as in garden, bar, car - -- a hard "o", as in cold, oh, home, crow, golden - -- a hard "i", as in wine, time Joni closes her vowels very quickly when she sings, which I find wonderful (b/c I associate it with her), but which my voice teacher corrects in me every time! Finally, a comment on the "youth of today are hopeless" thread. I still consider myself a young person at 23, but I have always been older in musical tastes than my peers. Young poster Sara reminds me of myself, because as my friends in high school were caught up in gangsta rap and techno, I was listening to stuff like the Beatles, Traffic, the Kinks, Fairport Convention, Pat Metheny, and of course, Joni. Not all of us have musical tastes that suck, although many teenagers do. HOWEVER, so do many, many adults! Having worked in my parents' record stores since I was 15, I can tell you from experience that this is true! As far as the "goodness" of people, or lack thereof, you're going to find terrible people (like the date rapist/animal abuser who has been mentioned) in all generations. And you will also find good. I have never used drugs or drunk alcohol, I got straight A's in high school and college (though I have gotten a few B's in grad school so far), and I volunteered in an animal shelter in Gaineville, FL, for my whole sophomore year of college. Please do not think I am saying this in a bragging/showing-off fashion. I simply wanted to demonstrate, like Sara, that you do not need to feel hopeless about the younger generations. Erin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:08:44 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: fucking music playing for the beat of blackwings no doubt it's fucking music. go to - http://blackwing.co.uk/Studios/History.html and - well - i think most of you will find in the list there more than one artist (that you know) who's involvment in music began "there". yours, nuriel ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:16:57 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Unheard Joni Albums Bruce just mentioned never having heard CMIARS. I'd find it fascinating to know who else on the list has missed one or more, and which ones. (It would be kind of nice to be in the position of still having an album or two to hear for the first time, wouldn't it?) Maybe it would provide for some interesting discussions, as JMDLers step up to lobby for their friends' exposure to this or that album. "Boston Jim" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:16:40 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: positive comments - ps... >My apologies to Pat on this folks! My mistake on her last e-mail! Ah, folks . . . my further mistake. Thank you, Pat. Please correct above . . "My mistake on HIS e-mail!" Loree P.S. - I can relate, Pat. When I lived in England, my female American "Loree" name is the nickname for a man's name, "Lawrence". ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:42:01 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Attention Bostonians!!!!!!! Chris Marshall from the UK is coming to town. We are planning a dinner/get together for Wednesday night, the 28th. Can you make it? Please let me know ASAP! Let's show him a real New England Welcome! (BTW....apologies to Joni-onlies, but I'm not sure which New Englanders are on which list.) Hugs, Ashara www.photon.net/lightnet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:43:13 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: Unheard Joni Albums >Bruce just mentioned never having heard CMIARS. I'd find it fascinating to >know who else on the list has missed one or more, and which ones. (It would >be kind of nice to be in the position of still having an album or two to >hear for the first time, wouldn't it?) TTT is the only for me. I was moving around a lot that year and everything was in storage . . . stereo equipment included. And don't ask me why I haven't picked it up this year! I keep going to buy it, but don't. Part of me likes the idea of having an unheard Joni CD. I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on TTT. Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:47:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings - --- philipf@tinet.ie wrote: > Does anyone know the words of the little chant > that's going on in > the background ? It comes in.at the start of the > song and during the > Charlie bits. > It sounds kind of like scat singing to me - here's what I hear: Ba boo da, bway uh, ba boo da, bway uh... ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:57:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings - --- Don Rowe wrote: > According to my uncle, a Vietnam veteran, in his > unit > the term "Charlie Angel" referred specifically to > Med-Evac helicopter transports called in to remove > the > wounded from the battlefields. > That makes a lot of sense. I'm sure I either read or heard in interview with Joni where she said that the percussion in the background either was, or was inspired by, the sound of helicopter rotors, which would have been an often-heard sound in Viet Nam, I'm sure. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:01:18 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Good News!! (NJC) Katie Barnicle, which some of you may remember as the Gracious Goddess of Games for the past 2 New England Labor Day Jonifests, had a baby!! His name is Connor Ezra Crane, born on May 5th, 9 lbs 10 oz. Well wishers can reach her by e-mail at: or if you'd like to send a card: Katie Barnicle P.O. Box 1633 Plymouth, MA 02362 USA Hugs, Ashara www.photon.net/lightnet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:01:25 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Possible Reason catman Is On Hiatus and more (LONG) In a message dated 06/23/2000 3:20:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << I accused him of being a hate-monger and I invited him to deny it. He laughed in my face. This made it worse for me because I took it as confirming my worse fear. Eventually he recanted his hateful joke. I recanted my "facist" charge. >> Jim, Why won't you just drop this bull? The second-guessing of Colin's absence is really irritating to me. For all any of us know, Colin is busy or on vacation, or whatever. The fact that you single this reason out for why Colin has not been posting indicates to me that you're in some sort of personal space where the sun rises and sets upon *you*. There is more to life than the JMDL??? I sure hope so or our lives are limited indeed. I've just about had it with the bickering and much other nonsense on this list. The accusations of Colin by Jim are the last straw. I don't usually write letters like this, as anyone who is a regular reader will attest. I realize this list is far superior to many others, yet it seems also to be among the most "psychologically complex" (for lack of a better term). I guess as I get older and more and more involved in my family, friends, community and career, I have less tolerance for the extraneous complexities out there. I simply want to reserve my energy for those things in my life that are truly important. If I have to enjoy Joni Mitchell in a vacuum again, that's ok with me. I feel better in a vacuum with my "fandom" than continuously being subjected to endless tirades and arguments that people just won't allow to die. The Suzanne Vega discussion list - now there's a kinder, gentler list. Perhaps it's because Suzanne herself is a regular contributor? She's also very gracious and kind to her fans through the list. "During times like these, the wise are influential". I followed carefully the whole thread between Colin and Jim so I know what I'm talking about, at least in terms of the way I interpreted it. Why did I not delete? Well, I know Colin a little. I have seen how he is constantly misunderstood. I know and appreciate his style and humor and intelligence. I was interested to see just what Jim's beef was with Colin. In essence, I was sucked in. My fault? Perhaps but regardless of finding fault, I'll conclude by stating that I don't want to get sucked in anymore by this sort of negativity, regardless. Especially when it's needless and openly hostile. I was ready to put it behind me and go on with the list and then when I decided to read the latest digest, there another reminder from Jim. I'll now delete the dozen or so digests that have stacked up on my computer desktop. I've pretty much had enough. Maybe this mood of mine toward the list will pass, who knows. Bob Muller, thanks for sharing so willingly the music with all of the list. I'll be calling on you to make for me all those tape trees that I still have not accumulated though I've been on list for a year and a half! I think I still have your address kicking around on my desk. Lest you all think it's been completely negative for me here, it has *not* been. But the negativity is something I'm simply having a hard time getting beyond. It's a shortcoming on my part, probably,but what else can I say? Oh, a final thought on the Pat Metheney thread. I did read several of those posts last night while I was trying to plow through all the back issues of digests. All I have to say is: way to go, Pat! After years of silence, people just get tired of keeping quiet. This happens in the work place all the time. People doing a superior job and watching suck-ups get credit for mediocre work and saying nothing because it's "unprofessional" to speak up. I found Pat's description of his opinions extremely articulate and passionate. Clearly, he has been thinking about this for a long time. I don't think that anyone would have been that articulate and clear in the heat of the moment. I now have more respect than ever for Pat. Not only is he an incredible talent but he is also a person of principle and integrity. Pat is not comparing himself to Kenny G. and saying he's a better musician, (though of course he is). He's standing up for all musicians of high integrity. His main beef is not with Kenny G's inferiority (though I know that's how he feels and I can't blame him) but with the sacrilegious and bogus act of using Armstrong as a crutch for creativity. To me it's sort of like using a paint-by-number and calling it art, but much worse, of course. Just my humble two cents. I really enjoyed Fred and Peg's (new list member?) contribution to this thread. Oh, boy...to send or not to send... Take care, it's been real! Gina NP: Inside - Bill Morrissey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:38:03 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: RE: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! (NJC) On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, Louis Lynch wrote: > However, I don't ever remember any of those "shockers" using lyrics about > raping their mothers, hideously violent acts, degradation of women, etc. > > Sex, drugs and rock & roll is VERY different from incest, murder and > misogyny. Rolling Stones, "Under My Thumb"? Great song. Misogynist. The luridness of violence portrayed in popular art is somewhat "new" if we take the out-of-context short view that excludes writers like Homer, de Sade, Jean Genet, et al. But even Johnny Cash, many many but not too many years ago, "killed a man just to watch him die." And misogyny has been such a part of rock 'n' roll that some might call it an essential element of its formation. One that needed to be excised, but an element nonetheless. It's not that the misogyny and homophobia of hip-hop is excusable. It's that critics on and off this list turn blind eyes to similar (if not exactly the same, as you rightly point out) phenomena in the music they love in order to construct symbolic boundaries between their tastes and those of hip-hop, thus allowing them to believe in their art as "higher" and hip-hop as "lower." Part of the service that Eminem's extremism provides is to force us to examine those somewhat hidden but still extant aspects of already consecrated art. And, frankly, I think that's part of his intent. I happen to believe artist intent a mostly faulty criterion by which to judge art, but as it's a criterion many of my fellow listers employ, I thought I'd throw that out there. > The lyrics are appalling and criminal, and simply cannot be defended or > rationalized. Rationalized? Perhaps not. Defended? Yes. I have and will continue to do so. You may disagree, but my defense is possible and stands as its own perspective. "There is only perspective-seeing, only perspective-knowing." --Nietzsche (paraphrased from memory), Joni's favorite philosopher - --Michael NP: NPR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:35:15 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Beat of Black Wings i think it is "up on your wing, way up". wally k, IN LOVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Does anyone know the words of the little chant that's going on in > the background ? It comes in.at the start of the song and during the > Charlie bits. > > thanks, > Philip > > NP Number One > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:51:49 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! (NJC) - ----- Original Message ----- From: michael w yarbrough > Rolling Stones, "Under My Thumb"? Great song. Misogynist.> Not to me...it's about having turned the tables and achieved the upper hand in a youthful love relationship between equals. Not remotely comparable. > Part of the service that Eminem's extremism provides is to force us to > examine those somewhat hidden but still extant aspects of already > consecrated art.> It might force you, and other like-minded intellectuals, to such examination, but what of the many young men (kids, really) that take his point of view at face value, and as something "cool and sexy" to be emulated, in their never-ending quest to attract the "bitches?" Maybe there should be a test required of potential buyers of Eminem's and other rappers' "product." "I'm sorry, Dylan Kleibold and Eric Harris? You guys are far too influenced by this type of thing. Here's a Kenny G disc for each of you. Michael Yarbrough? You passed. Here's your Eminem." "Boston Jim" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:02:42 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC To participate in the Rolling Stone Magazine "Message Board" for our own Lady Of Duality, go to: http://www.rollingstone.com/sections/boards/text/default.asp?afl=&comingfrom =artist&aid=360 Better yet, bookmark the SOB until we effect change. (Thanks to Michael Y. et al. for tweaking my syntax!) All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:13:33 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! (NJC) I found this quotation online, and it seems to sum up my feelings about Eminem pretty nicely... --Bob There are things to confess that enrich the world, and things that need not be said. ~ Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:14:10 -0500 From: "Steve Polifka" Subject: Beat of Black wings...(NJC) From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings Beverly wrote: >> I've always thought that Joni was singing "Charlie Angel," and that it was a >> reference to all the American soldiers who were killed by "Charlie." >That's been my take on it too Bev. It's always what I "heard" but after hearing >Joni's story about the song, it really made sense. >Phyliss Hey everyone! Do you remember that song that was popular by Shelley Fabares "Johnny Angel, how I love you..." ? That's where I always thought JM took it from. Either Johnny Angel was killed in the war or on a motorcycle. (Seemed to have been a theme in songs fort a while...) The phrasing and notes are very similar, hence my reason for believing this. Anyone recall or have this song? TTM! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:28:33 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: Rolling Stone Discusses Joni On Message Board, Repititious Content, NJC >To participate in the Rolling Stone Magazine "Message Board" for our own >Lady Of Duality, go to: >http://www.rollingstone.com/sections/boards/text/default.asp?afl=&comingfrom=artist&aid=360 Yes, do check in!! Things have definitely changed. Pretty interesting postings now that the hecklers have gone away. Good discussion is always grand, but the "trash" postings just to trash have gone to find some other discussion board. Thanks go to supportive JMDL folks! Also, check out the splendid bio page on Joni at: http://www.rollingstone.com/sections/artists/text/bio.asp?afl=&LookUpString=360 Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:30:28 EDT From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: Marcy's Getting Married !!! Hi everyone, I know you haven't heard from me in awhile. Just wanted to let you all know that tomorrow, my 22 year old daughter Marcy is getting married. (She was named after the song). It's been a bit hectic around her the last couple of months. (I also decided that I needed to do a little redecorating as well). I'm sure it will be beautiful but I am a bit nervous as can be expected. I still have a bunch of things to do. (As I told Bob, I don't feel like I'm old enough to be a bride's mother). I did want to get a little Joni content in here. Marcy is giving a CD of her and her fiance's favorite songs called " So Much In Love", as a favor for everyone. In honor of me, I guess, and also because she likes it, she has included the BSN version of "Both Sides Now" as the finale. I think it will make a special and personal gift (except for the older folks who might not have CD players.) The ceremony will be outdoors at sunset on a beautiful South Florida golf course setting. Please help visualize dry weather. I let you know how it was soon. As I said, I still have a lot of little things to do. My best to everyone, Pearl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:42:23 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Beat of Black wings...(NJC) In a message dated 6/23/00 3:24:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, polifkas@milwaukee.tec.wi.us writes: << Do you remember that song that was popular by Shelley Fabares "Johnny Angel, how I love you..." ? The phrasing and notes are very similar, hence my reason for believing this. Anyone recall or have this song? >> Steve, that's exactly what I always thought too! I might be lyrically impaired, but I think Joni intentionally used Shelly's version of "Johnny Angel" whether or not she's saying Charlie or Johnny. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:46:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Out The Door (NJC) - --- Michael wrote: > I am out the ddo to meet the family for the weekend in Florida (to do a > little shark hunting). Please leave some lawyers for the rest of us, though (Esp the sweet ones, like Mary P) I'd hate to see Kakki unemployed, either :-) Have a great weekend, Michael. The rest of you too! Brian np: Don't Go To Strangers from BSN (studio version) ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:04:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Beat of Black wings...(NJC) - --- Steve Polifka wrote: > Hey everyone! > Do you remember that song that was popular by > Shelley Fabares "Johnny > Angel, how I love you..." ? > That's where I always thought JM took it from. > Either Johnny Angel was > killed in the war or on a motorcycle. > (Seemed to have been a theme in songs fort a > while...) The phrasing and > notes are very similar, hence my reason for > believing this. > Anyone recall or have this song? I soitenly do! The boyfriend or girlfriend killed in an accident was a common theme - remember "Leader of the Pack"? and "Where, oh where, can my baby be?" (not sure if that's the real name of it, but someone - no idea who it is - has very recently done a remake of this. Why, I ask you, why??? ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:49:04 -0400 From: Sally Pont Subject: RE: what's the most happiest joni song? The song "Come to the Sunshine"--on the 2nd fret and Club 47 recordings--is certainly a happy one. Sally - -----Original Message----- From: Ada Wittenberger [SMTP:wittadi@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 4:33 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: what's the most happiest joni song? ?????????? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:24:53 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! (NJC) On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, James L. Leonard wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: michael w yarbrough > > > Rolling Stones, "Under My Thumb"? Great song. Misogynist.> > > Not to me...it's about having turned the tables and achieved the upper hand > in a youthful love relationship between equals. Not remotely comparable. You have one reading. I have another. See how this work? > > Part of the service that Eminem's extremism provides is to force us to > > examine those somewhat hidden but still extant aspects of already > > consecrated art.> > > It might force you, and other like-minded intellectuals, to such > examination, but what of the many young men (kids, really) that take his > point of view at face value, and as something "cool and sexy" to be > emulated, in their never-ending quest to attract the "bitches?" They aren't intelligent enough to encounter the work? That's awfully anti-democratic. > Maybe there should be a test required of potential buyers of Eminem's and > other rappers' "product." "I'm sorry, Dylan Kleibold and Eric Harris? You > guys are far too influenced by this type of thing. Here's a Kenny G disc for > each of you. Michael Yarbrough? You passed. Here's your Eminem." I understand you're being facetious, but I reiterate that the concerns you all supposedly have are not limited to rap music and have been extant throughout the history of popular music and art itself. All distinctions of this type are to an extent socially constructed and view some points as salient while overlooking others. If we test potential audiences of Eminem, then must we also test audiences of Johnny Cash, Homer or Machiavelli? It's been done before, with disastrous consequences for everybody. And, if we remember Tocqueville, social censorship can be as powerful as legal censorship. This tyranny of the majority is more nebulous and difficult to stop. Many of you learned the value of an open mind during your experiences in the late '60s and '70s. I'm challenging you to continue that lesson further, if not to understand Eminem, at least to understand hip-hop. - --Michael NP: Ani DiFranco, _Little Plastic Castle_ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #352 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?