From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #350 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Friday, June 23 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 350 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: catman (jews?) ["Ada Wittenberger" ] Eminem ["Kate Bennett" ] Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! [Louis Lynch ] Re: VLJC - Kathie Lee Gifford to divorce Frank, marry Eminem [Catherine M] Pastorius Family Website [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Eminem (NJC) (md) ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: Eminem ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! [Don Rowe ] Re: what's the most happiest joni song? ["Lori R. Fye" ] Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days ["Kakki" ] Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days [Phyliss Ward ] Re: what's the most happiest joni song? ["cassy" ] Eminem (NJC) [michael w yarbrough ] Painting with Words [meg@ntplx.net] Re: who described BSN show as too explicit? [B Merrill ] Re: Blowup (1966) (NJC) [Gerald McNamara ] RE: Blowup (1966) (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! [AngelinoCoyote@aol.com] Re: what's the most happiest joni song? [pat holden ] Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! [AngelinoCoyote@aol.com] Re: Eminem (NJC) [AngelinoCoyote@aol.com] Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: JACO / SHORTER [B Merrill ] He.lp me I think I'm falling (njc) [Bounced Message ] Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Jimi loves Joni [susan+rick ] Re: Beat of Black Wings ["Beverly" ] Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days ["Kakki" ] Re: Beat of Black Wings ["gene mock" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:57:27 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: RE: catman (jews?) hi - i see. seems like it's been a nasty thread. you haven't said much only that it's better off. but one of our friends wrote it was something against jews. so pardon me folks i don't want to pull you through it again - but if catman wrote something like that - i have to know and a very short line about what was his saying will do. nuriel >From: Catherine McKay >To: Ada Wittenberger >Subject: RE: catman(facist...?) >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:47:24 -0400 (EDT) > > >--- Ada Wittenberger wrote: > > i know nothing of "that" thread - must have been > > away. what was it all > > about? > > yours, > > nuriel > > > >You're better off not knowing. Sometimes the way >people fight around here, it's like holiday time at >the inlaws'! > >===== >Catherine (in Toronto) >catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca > >_______________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:27:34 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Eminem Reuben wrote: "he has a point to what he is doing, and it may not neccessarily be a bad one." What is his point? (I am trying to be objective now & putting aside my own opinions in a sincere desire to understand what it is that people see in him. Other than shock value of the lyrics which seems to attract & a catchy chorus). Kate Bennett Singer/Songwriter www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:42:25 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! Marcel writes: Wait a minute. This clown is on fricken MTV being interviewed, out doing concerts in huge venues, being paid major bucks to basically verbally defecate and hes got a BITCH with the music industry ???? I do to. Its called flush this turd down the toilet along with about a hundred others like him and the process of restoring value to artistic apreciation of music will commence. ================ Marcel, You are so right it hurts! Please, make me a promise. After I die laughing from one of Mr. Don Rowe Klein's posts, please write a eulogy for my funeral! Usually this lou will harp endlessly about almost anything that has to do with the state of the world. However, I visited the website with Eminem's lyrics. What disgusting rot! It's not even worth the words I would need to condemn it properly. The boy's obviously just plain ignorant and base. Given Eminem's attitude toward women, gays, mothers, and mammals in general, I move that owning or buying one of his records would be grounds for immediate removal from this esteemed list. And, any parents on the list with kids who own the record should take it from them and make them listen to Blue or Court and Spark until they lose all desire to stick garbage in their little ears. Really, that guy is against everything Joni Mitchell stands for: intelligence, feeling, grace, art, music, love and humanity. Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:55:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: catman (jews?) No, it was one of those cases where people misunderstood each other and, in their attempts to clarify what had been said, only succeeded in further muddying the waters. Nothing anti-Semitic, nothing anti-anyone, which is why I responded (just to you) saying you were better off not knowing. - --- Ada Wittenberger wrote: > hi - > i see. seems like it's been a nasty thread. you > haven't said much only that > it's better off. but one of our friends wrote it was > something against jews. > so pardon me folks i don't want to pull you through > it again - but if catman > wrote something like that - i have to know and a > very short line about what > was his saying will do. > nuriel > > > >From: Catherine McKay > >To: Ada Wittenberger > >Subject: RE: catman(facist...?) > >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:47:24 -0400 (EDT) > > > > > >--- Ada Wittenberger wrote: > > > i know nothing of "that" thread - must have been > > > away. what was it all > > > about? > > > yours, > > > nuriel > > > > > > >You're better off not knowing. Sometimes the way > >people fight around here, it's like holiday time at > >the inlaws'! > > > >===== > >Catherine (in Toronto) > >catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca > > > >_______________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get your free @yahoo.ca address at > http://mail.yahoo.ca > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com > ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:13:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: VLJC - Kathie Lee Gifford to divorce Frank, marry Eminem - --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > Kathie Lee Gifford to divorce Frank, marry Eminem > This is SOOOOO funny! I particularly liked this line: "Eminem just smiled, violently." ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:16:54 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Pastorius Family Website Hello one and all! I'm about 12 digest behind so forgive me if someone has already posted about this. Back in January of '99, Wally posted on the Joni site an interview with Ingrid Pastorius, whom I felt extremely connected to for some reason, just through what she expressed in the interview. I admired and respected her unpretentious, thoughtful and loving way of discussing her late husband. I wrote Ingrid a letter at that time telling her how much I appreciated having had the good fortune to read her words. Not surprisingly, in light of the person she clearly appears to be, she wrote back a sweet and thoughtful letter. More recently, Ingrid sent several Jaco fans a link to the family website created by her and Jaco's sons Julius and Felix. Please check it out. There, posted among several letters from friends and fans alike, is my original letter to Ingrid. I noticed Michael Paz also wrote. (Nice letter, Michael!) The Pastorius Family Website is truly heartwarming and I state this with the utmost of sincerity. The interface to the home page has a photo of Jaco that depicts well the beautiful man he was. They say it's all in the eyes - well, there you go. The Jaco Pastorius Family Website Take care and happy summer, Gina NP: My daughter on the piano ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:16:50 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Eminem (NJC) (md) Some would agree with you, and say the same about Joni, who ain't doing to bad herself, bitching about the industry at the same. Its all relative. Joni wins awards, people want to talk to her. We buy her records. She keeps the hours and the company that she pleases. Joni just does it a little more eloquently and with a little more class. Eminem is hot at the moment, the way Joni was hot in her own moment. I'm not DEFENDING the guy, I'm just saying that I personally see some similarities. You don't have to. :) Reuben >From: MDESTE1@aol.com >To: reubenbell@hotmail.com, joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Eminem (NJC) (md) >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:05:36 EDT > >In a message dated 6/22/00 6:32:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >reubenbell@hotmail.com writes: > ><< His big beef at the moment is the music industry. He often waxes >Joniesque on the sorry state of pop music and the starmaker machinery. >> > >Wait a minute. This clown is on fricken MTV being interviewed, out doing >concerts in huge venues, being paid major bucks to basically verbally >defecate and hes got a BITCH with the music industry ???? I do to. Its >called >flush this turd down the toilet along with about a hundred others like him >and the process of restoring value to artistic apreciation of music will >commence. I realize that there is a fine line between cutting edge art and >pure ca ca but I have already intimated where I think Eminem belongs. Snuff >films probably have a "market" but who cares its still hideous S_____t that >should be rejected outright by the music industry. Unapologeticly yours. >marcel deste. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:32:02 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Eminem His point is: he hates the current wave of popular culture, and is trying to be a part of it while not being a part of it. (This is based on very limited knowledge of the guy, and several articles that I have recently read). I can't believe I'm still talking about him. I wonder if he needs a PR person... (My Name Is) Reuben >From: "Kate Bennett" >Reuben wrote: "he has a point to what he is doing, and it may not >neccessarily be a bad one." > >What is his point? (I am trying to be objective now & putting aside my own >opinions in a sincere desire to understand what it is that people see in >him. Other than shock value of the lyrics which seems to attract & a catchy >chorus). > >Kate Bennett >Singer/Songwriter >www.katebennett.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:46:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! - --- Louis Lynch wrote: > After I die laughing > from one of Mr. Don Rowe Klein's posts, please write > a eulogy for my > funeral! > In addition to hoping I don't cause the untimely death of Harper Lou, I'm also hoping that my off-handed and casual reference to Eminem in my RS Messageboard thread post is NOT what started all of this ... But honestly, when we were young'uns, holed up in our rooms with our blacklight posters, listening to "The End", or "White Rabbit", "Helter Skelter" or the others ... did our folks find that every bit as shocking than this? I ask this question *NOT* to validate or defend Eminem by any stretch of the imagination ... and can only say that we can be thankful that the music business is as mercurial as it is. This guy will tank soon enough ... to be replaced by what? I sometimes honestly shudder to think. But then again, we've all made it through, in a VERY rough chronological order, the following acts, all of which at one time, were considered the harbingers of one apocolypse or another: Alice Cooper Kiss AC/DC Ozzie Ozbourn The Sex Pistols Twisted Sister 2 Live Crew Marilyn Manson All the members of these various bands have at some point, shrugged their shoulders and offhandedly commented "It's just an act" ... or "It's just rock 'n roll" ... or "Our fans don't take it seriously." Wouldn't surprise me to hear Eminem saying the same thing. But there have always been some that DID take it seriously, and ended up hurting either themselves and/or others in response to it. With the result that the material achieved contraband status. In some cases, this status was further magnified by declarations of "pornography" and actual bans of sales of the material. That the music industry has long supported this kind of material should come as no surprise to anyone. What is contraband is, by extension desirable, and achieves the kind of brand identity that the suits can't resist. So I'm afraid we're stuck with it ... at least as long as the CDs keep selling. Don Rowe ===== "I do not object to others hiding from history. What I object to are others hiding history from ME." - -- Shelby Foote __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:53:26 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Willy the Shake (NJC) Chris in the UK wrote: > realised that its use in >the play is direct condemnation of both parties by Cpt. Prince While not getting into the discussion you brought up (I'm staying OUT of that one!) I have to point out that "A plague on both your houses" is spoken, not by the Prince (Captain Prince in Baz Luhrman's version) but by the dying Mercutio after he has been stabbed by Tybalt. Interesting that you brought that up, in the light of the recent thread on violent lyrics. Mercutio's death is the result of a street brawl, brought on (in large part) by a history of dissing, insults, obscene gestures, shoving, confrontation, testosterone, ego....rappers would fit right in! All the best, - -- ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:53:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Lori R. Fye" Subject: Re: what's the most happiest joni song? Ada Wittenberger asks: > "what's the most happiest joni song??????????? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My pick: "Underneath the Streetlight" Lori in DC NP: Some really crappy, repetitive, computer-generated music as I sit here on "hell hold" with Gateway ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:59:22 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days Catherine wrote: >I'm going to have a little talk with the kids when I get home >about whether or not she understands what any of this >means and what she thinks about this kind of language. I think she'd thank you for clueing her in. Regardless of his "artistic" motivation, one does have to wonder how many people take what he says seriously. Yesterday after the Laker's Victory Parade here in L.A. large groups of the crowd were shuffled off south of downtown where several of them proceeded to attack people on the street and in cars. Our local news seems to be keeping reports of all this to a minimum to keep things calm and not provoke fears of what may happen in August when the Democratic National Convention is held downtown. But I'm hearing first hand accounts of this stuff from friends in the area. A friend's college student daughter and her friend were driving to get art supplies yesterday and their car was surrounded by 15 young adult males who threw bottles and rocks at the car, rocked it and tried to tip it over. At the same time nearby another group grabbed a woman walking on the street, threw her on the ground and tore all her clothes off. Bystanders on the sidewalk just stodd by laughing and cheering. My friend spent hours yesterday ranting to every police and city official in town. When her daughter and friend went to the university's head security chief to report the incident, he laughed them off like it was nothing. There comes a point when tolerance is no longer a practical option and it's time to say "enough". Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:15:51 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Nuriel, Cut It Out Nuriel, You took a private post of Catrin's and posted it to the list. You also did it with Paul. At the time of Paul's post, I thought it was justifiable. Now, I'm starting to think Paul's instincts were not so off base. I've asked you to identify yourself as either Nuriel or Ada, a young person or an older person. You have not answered. You've lost my consideration. And taking private posts to the list is a major mistake on this list. So please, stop doing that and let old flames die out. Pat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:22:27 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Joni Message Board on Rolling Stone Site To participate in the Rolling Stone Magazine "Message Board" for our own Lady Of Duality, go to: http://www.rollingstone.com/sections/boards/text/default.asp?afl=&comingfrom =artist&aid=360 Better yet, bookmark the SOB until we affect change. (with an "a", right English teachers?) All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:31:12 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: what bob's listening to njc > > NP: Cherry Poppin' Daddies, "Master & Slave" exactly what i was playing while i was putting the tape in the male... wally la K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:34:18 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days Geez Kakki! That is just awful, and very scary! It made me think of the incident in NY's Central Park recently. It's hard to believe there are that many people out there that would do these kinds of things. Then there are the others that watch and support it. And to think in this case it was sparked by some silly basketball game. (I'm sure I'll get burned for that so go ahead and start flaming) I'm wondering too if all the problems the LAPD's been having lately is making it even worse. You take good care of yourself in the City of Angels, etc... Phyliss, who will be there herself on Saturday Kakki wrote: > Yesterday after the Laker's Victory Parade here in L.A. large groups of the > crowd were shuffled off south of downtown where several of them proceeded to > attack people on the street and in cars. Our local news seems to be keeping > reports of all this to a minimum to keep things calm and not provoke fears > of what may happen in August when the Democratic National Convention is held > downtown. But I'm hearing first hand accounts of this stuff from friends in > the area. A friend's college student daughter and her friend were driving > to get art supplies yesterday and their car was surrounded by 15 young adult > males who threw bottles and rocks at the car, rocked it and tried to tip it > over. At the same time nearby another group grabbed a woman walking on the > street, threw her on the ground and tore all her clothes off. Bystanders on > the sidewalk just stodd by laughing and cheering. My friend spent hours > yesterday ranting to every police and city official in town. When her > daughter and friend went to the university's head security chief to report > the incident, he laughed them off like it was nothing. There comes a point > when tolerance is no longer a practical option and it's time to say > "enough". > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:37:39 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: Walecki interview. Hi Les, Sorry to reply to you in public, but I have sent 4 emails to you and all were returned as bumped mail. The address I used is les@jmdl.com. Forgive me if I am doing something wrong. God knows my 'internet/computer skills are sorely lacking. I even hit 'reply' and my messages were still bumped back. I am flattered that you would ask me to do the interview. Fred Walecki is a good man with great heart and spirit. As much as I would like to be a part of this, there are two better options. One, Fred's wealth of musical knowledge would be best tapped if he were interviewed by someone with a stong background in music. In which case someone like say, Michael Paz would make a superb choice! Or perhaps someone in the L.A. area since Mr. Walecki is more than willing to act as a go between and set up an interview with himself AND Joni. He is willing to contact her management on this. This would indeed make for a wonderful, wonderful event for the JM community! Something I think we've all dreamed of here. His willingness to do this is something I think we should take advantage of!!! Another concern I have is Fred's health. It would be best to set up an interview that puts him in the most comfortable situation possible. Recovering from chemo, and newly dealing with an artificial voice box would make for serious obstacles to be dealt with. This is a great opportunity and I will be willing to help out in any way possible to get this rolling along. But, as I say, best case scenario would have someone else at the helm. Perhaps we could have a fund raiser for jmdl.com? Winner gets to do the Joni interview? (Actually, I'd like to see you have the honors, Les as our grand leader.) Again, many thanks for writing me. I feel honored. And apologies for the public discussion. --As to your mail address, corrections are gratefully welcome! What did I do wrong? And please, keep me, us posted. Thanks. John Calimee (Imagining the irony of my being the impetus of someone else meeting Joni... and not me...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:02:04 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: what's the most happiest joni song? Ada Wittenberger asks: > "what's the most happiest joni song??????????? Morning Morgantown has to be up there among the happiest. At least it's a song that put me in a very good mood with Sunday brunch and made me want to wink at total strangers passing. Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:56:26 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: Joni Message Board on Rolling Stone Site (NJC) On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Better yet, bookmark the SOB until we affect change. (with an "a", right > English teachers?) Your instincts are mostly correct, in that generally "affect" is a verb and "effect" is a noun. But. "Effect" is also a verb meaning "to make happen" (or, just to be confusing, "to cause"). Most often it is used in the sense of making change happen. Ergo, those of us who care about the RS board (not including me, but who am I to judge; I'm just a lowly Eminem fan ;-) ) should go "effect change." Lack of resources negatively affects our ability to effect change, so we are having no effect. - --Michael NP: Joan Jett, _I Love Rock 'n' Roll_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:57:27 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Kids these days (NJC) I'm digesting so please excuse my tardiness. The difference between Randy Newman and this new so-called "artist" is that Randy stepped into a _void_ of short-bashing, so it was obviously a joke, a put-on. Enigma, (or Enema, or whatever) steps into a damn whirlwind of gay-bashing and spews more of it. From the "lyrics" presented here yesterday he/she brings no humor or absurdity to the table. I'm sorry but defecating in a multitrack recording studio is not necessarily social commentary. Catherine said, Is there a remote possibility the guy is talking this way to draw people's attention to this kind of hate? that maybe he's saying this to show people how bad it is to hate? (the only song I can think about right now is Randy Newman's "Short people" which was a silly song meant to show people how ridiculous it is to hate people for their physical attributes or whatever... All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:29:53 -0500 (CDT) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Eminem (NJC) Having gotten involved in many frustrated battles trying to communicate the musical tastes of us younger folk to those of us less young folk on the list, my continued involvement in this thread will be limited. Nonetheless, as so often happens when the JMDL discusses (violent or otherwise) rap, I've gotten just angry enough to write a bit. So there. :-) Also, remember that I write as both a music lover and a big, flaming faggot whom Eminem may or may not hate and/or wish to kill. First, I'm struck by how many people deride Eminem's artistic merits rather than his political/philosophical/humanity-related beliefs. He has been called a "so-called" artist, etc. because his work, if read literally, espouses violence against a shitload of people, including but not limited to big, flaming faggots. Might I remind the court that both the _Odyssey_ and the _Iliad_, perhaps the first recorded works of art ever, contain violence at least as lurid as that represented in Eminem's work. Moreover, the violence they depict is *applauded*, the "virtues" of revenge and honor through might rewarded. Why? Because those were the values of the artist and his society. Do we thus question Homer's artistic merit? Is he now a "so-called" poet? The world from which Eminem and many rappers come is one that often rewards--no, demands--violence from its members for survival. It is one that scapegoats many groups, including big, flaming faggots, for the poverty and inequality they experience. Should we thus be surprised that such values infuse Eminem's work? It is not easy being a passionate lover of both hip-hop and big, flaming faggots. Rappers speak to issues that are completely unaddressed in the music of previous generations. Its words, beats, sounds, and spirit move me in a way no other music does. It is certainly more relevant to my life than much of the supposedly (dare I say so-called?) touching and meaningful music lumped in with Joni under the singer-songwriter label. I would also contend that its adventurousness and restlessness is more in line with her spirit than some have claimed from time to time. At the same time, many MCs, even the most "intelligent" lace their rhymes with homophobia. I do not approve. It is a subject that should be addressed, and one that every review of Eminem's latest, including the many, many positive ones, has taken him to task for. I am also aware that many people bemoan rap's misogyny and homophobia not because they are concerned with misogyny and homophobia, but because it further marginalizes hip-hop. That, IMO, is bullshit hypocrisy. My own opinion is that Eminem's work, particularly as delivered, which some but not all of you have heard, is rhythmically inventive in artistically compelling--yes, I said compelling--ways. I like his work, hate his homophobia, and hope the complexity with which he sometimes addresses it evolves into a more enlightened stance as he grows artistically and personally. - --Michael NP: Mary J. Blige, _Share My World_ - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's hard to be a diamond in a rhinestone world." - --Dolly Parton, "Tennessee Homesick Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:36:10 -0400 (EDT) From: meg@ntplx.net Subject: Painting with Words I am totally new to the group here, but I asked Les if there was a CD of Joni's video "Painting with Words" and he told me to post here to get an "unofficial" cd of that performance. Glad I found this list and looking forward to the posts. Anyone who has a CD of this video - I would be in your debt!! Thanks- Marya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:44:09 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: who described BSN show as too explicit? >And since Joni and I developed BSN as a "concept" >album tracing the "arc" of a love affair ... wouldn't >changing the order make it the "oblique angles" of a >love affair? Or something more radical ... the >"polygon" of a acquaintance? The "vectors" of a >friendship? Well, in that ol' romantic triangle, it's the hypotenuse, that gives us the blues... - -- Bruise M. PS Meanwhile, I'm still waiting, begging for the original post that described the BSN show as too explicit... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:51:25 +0100 From: "Steve Mitchell" Subject: Re: Assorted Joni Stuff on my Site Sorry Ken but for some reason the link that you gave for the Joni Tiles didn't work for me, I kept getting an error message. - -- Stevie - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken (slarty)" To: "JmDL" Sent: 22 June 2000 17:34 Subject: Assorted Joni Stuff on my Site > For those who haven't seen it I have an assortment of > Joni related stuff on my site including a Joni Art > Screen Saver Program, Joni Icons, a Joni Cursor, Joni > Midi Files and now a Joni Tileset for Kyodai Mahjongg > plus a link to download the game. > Programs are for Windows 95/98. > http://millennium.fortunecity.com/sherwood/452/ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:12:12 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: Eminem (NJC) well michael y, i was hoping you would join in this discussion as i was (and am always) interested in your take on these things. particularly this eminem character, and his alleged homophobia (alleged only because i have not yet heard it myself) about whom i was reading recently in (gasp) rollingstone. so i thank you. wise as ever. i was actually withholding my judgement until i got to see what you wrote and i am happy you got sufficently pissed off to start typing. whenever these critiques of younger artists start up, i am always reminded of those things my parents, and teachers and ministers used to say about such no-talent, flash in the pans as the beatles, promoting drugs, and the stones, worshiping the devil, and the who, smashing their guitars, and jimi hendrix, having sex with his. i know most of us are well on our way to becoming our parents, but i wish we didn't sound like them quite so often. and someday michael, god forbid, you might sound that way too! its all a big old circle game! peace, ric ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:31:55 -0700 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: Boston hotel recommendations (NJC) Hi gang, Sorry for the rather gratuitous use of (NJC), but I'm searcing for information and recommendations, and couldn't think of a better place to turn. Myself and a friend are in Boston next week, and are searching for hotel recommendations. If any of the Boston crowd have good (or bad!) stories to tell about hotels there, please mail me off- list. I'm also trying to contact Ashara - are you there? Failing that, does anyone know where she is? I'd love to meet her and/or some of the Boston crowd if possible. I rekon I'll be around on the 29th and the 1st - anyone for dinner? :-) Right - that's enough gabble. Please relpy to me personally so as to save listers from unnecessary messages. Thanks! - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:04:10 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings According to the songbook, it's 'Johnny Angel' and apparently it's a fictitious character from a film..... Zoob - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: 21 June 2000 Subject: Beat of Black Wings > I remember a while back there was a thread regarding > the "Beat of Black Wings." Did we ever resolve what > the lyrics are to the sections between verses in BoBW? > Something > like "Charlie Angel" ... > > Leslie > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 0:35:20 UTC From: Gerald McNamara Subject: Re: Blowup (1966) (NJC) >the only thing the article fails to mention is that "blowup" is based on a >story by argentine writer julio cortázar, author of "hopscotch", among many >other masterpieces. > The other thing not mentioned (or maybe I missed it) is that during the film there's a scene in a London disco and the band playing onstage is The Yardbirds. As I recall, it's the Yardbirds lineup that featured BOTH Jimmy Page and Jeff Beck, as the 2 guitar heroes were in the band together for a few weeks. -Gerald ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:43:35 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Blowup (1966) (NJC) wow! that's SOME detail!!!! thanks gerald! wallyk > > The other thing not mentioned (or maybe I missed it) is that during the film > there's a scene in a London disco and the band playing onstage is The Yardbirds. > As I recall, it's the Yardbirds lineup that featured BOTH Jimmy Page > and Jeff Beck, as the 2 guitar heroes were in the band together > for a few weeks. > > -Gerald > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:09:12 EDT From: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! In a message dated 6/22/00 12:51:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com writes: << Given Eminem's attitude toward women, gays, mothers, and mammals in general, I move that owning or buying one of his records would be grounds for immediate removal from this esteemed list. >> Well, I guess a few of us have to leave now...I didn't know there was a membership committee that reviewed music collections prior to our admission. They missed my house. I did hide any Kenny G or Kathie Lee CDs I had around - - just in case. Is there a published list of banned music on the JMDL web site? :-) With regrets, Coyote (Rick) Casa Alegre Hollywood, California I'll be dancin' on a pony keg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:21:23 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: Re: what's the most happiest joni song? I think A Case of You is the happiest song...coupled with Court and Spark...for the same reason. Love does indeed come knocking at your door when you least expect it. Mags. np: A Map of the World Pat Metheny cassy wrote: > Ada Wittenberger asks: > > "what's the most happiest joni song??????????? > > Morning Morgantown has to be up there among the happiest. At least it's a > song that put me in a very good mood with Sunday brunch and made me want to > wink at total strangers passing. > > Cassy - -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:26:02 EDT From: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! In a message dated 6/22/00 1:54:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: << But honestly, when we were young'uns, holed up in our rooms with our blacklight posters, listening to "The End", or "White Rabbit", "Helter Skelter" or the others ... did our folks find that every bit as shocking than this? >> Hi Don: That's why I am so amused by this discussion. ITS EXACTLY THE SAME THING!! Sure the words are more bizarre, even frightful, but I remember when my parents caught me with my first Jefferson Airplane album, which contained White Rabbit, they listened to it and my Dad said privately to my Mom at the dining room table, "Ruth, I think Rick has a drug problem and may want to be a hippie." True story. I overheard him from the hallway. "That album of his is all about drugs and hippie love," he said. They made me go talk to our priest ON A SATURDAY who later informed them I was OK and to let kids be kids. I was in elementary school (and aspired to DeMolay, not Haight-Ashbury at the time. I still tease him about it today. In fact, I am calling him tonight to tell him about this intriguing debate. This is all about time periods folks and perhaps, in some opinions, unsavory evolution. No regrets, Coyote (Rick) Casa Alegre Hollywood, California I'll be dancin' on a pony keg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:39:04 EDT From: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com Subject: Re: Eminem (NJC) In a message dated 6/22/00 3:35:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mwyarbro@midway.uchicago.edu writes: << My own opinion is that Eminem's work, particularly as delivered, which some but not all of you have heard, is rhythmically inventive in artistically compelling--yes, I said compelling--ways. I like his work, hate his homophobia, and hope the complexity with which he sometimes addresses it evolves into a more enlightened stance as he grows artistically and personally. >> And some are worried about "today's kids?" This one is okay in my book. Wonderful, intelligent post Michael. I loved reading your words and you opened my mind even further to the freedom of art. Don't ever stop, you make me proud to be part of this discussion list (at least until the committee comes and sees my Eminem CD). Yikes! No regrets, Coyote (Rick) Casa Alegre Hollywood, California I'll be dancin' on a pony keg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:48:18 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC In a message dated 6/22/00 6:32:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AngelinoCoyote@aol.com writes: << They missed my house. I did hide any Kenny G or Kathie Lee CDs I had around >> Any unexpected inspection would turn up CDs and cassettes from 'N'Synch, Britany Spears and some old New Kids On The Block that my 19 y.o. swears were never hers....(:-D MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:18:40 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: JACO / SHORTER Dave, I'd forgotten about Shorter's family sorrows... Hard to conceive of what that would be like... Hard to argue with that as a reason to go silent.... >My understanding is that Wayne has been keeping a very low profile, >{only a few duo dates w/ Herbie Hancock}, since his wife and daughter >perished in the TWA 800 explosion off the East Moriches Long Island >coast on July 17, 1996. As for Jaco, you're fortunate to have seen him perform. I never did. That scene of him of him on the street with his boom box, I read about it in _Jaco_. What a tragedy. As a Hissing fanatic, I was disappointed by Hejira: Jaco's singing lyric bass was the best thing on it for me. I'd never heard anything like it. And then he also had funk syncopation nailed (that was where he began), and Jazz harmony... He studied that same book of scales that Coltrane learned so much from. Bruce M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:06:27 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: He.lp me I think I'm falling (njc) From: "Kevin J Hall" Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 03:00:44 +0100 Hi everyone I am so mad and its late so I cant phone any of my friends to get it off my chest and I so need to say it coz I'm so mad . I have had the worst 2 months of my life and to top it all I just completely humiliated myself to someone god I don't even know what THANK GOD for strange boy if I didn't have that song at the moment I don't know what I'd do "know I surf rising know parched rides of sand at his side " Sorry guys I have to go and just cry it out sorry to lay this on you. Kev ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:12:24 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Eminem, junk food for juveniles indeed! NJC Good point by Don: << << But honestly, when we were young'uns, holed up in our rooms with our blacklight posters, listening to "The End", or "White Rabbit", "Helter Skelter" or the others ... did our folks find that every bit as shocking than this? >> Coyote's support: >>That's why I am so amused by this discussion. ITS EXACTLY THE SAME THING!! >> MG's rebuttal: You know, I agree and don't agree. Going through the lyrics for the Slim Shady song yields quite a few lines in the "White Rabbit" or "Helter Alka Seltzer" range: just shocking and counter main stream-ish. But again, I think that the music our parents objected to was often created to make a statement, there was a counter-culture movement at the time that along wanting with free sex and drugs, wanted a better world. A movement that pushed to question values and conventions. I think that music such as Eminem, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dog Eat Dog and others falls a bit short of that. I fear that the violence in the lyrics reflect an odd pseudo chic "coolness" of these gangsta rap values; a world where woman are whores, killing someone is an acceptable option and the rebellion thrown about freely without the responsibility of showing a better way. Michael Yarborough's post was wonderfully thought provoking. And it is true that rap comes from a society that demands violence from its members for survival. But now many of these artists have the cushioning power of money. And yet they continue to put out works that are homophobic and violently disrespectful of women and others. I think that once you make the statement, you have the responsibility to follow up with the next step. But by no means do I think these rappers should be banned or censored. MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:23:18 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Jimi loves Joni Whilst delighting in a grande Orange Mocha Chip Frappacino ( it was a long bike ride to get there okay!) I came across this little gem in a review of the Experience Music Project (Museum) that opens in Seattle on Friday: Jimi Hendrix' diary entry dated March 19/20, 1968- "Arrived in Ottawa--beautiful hotel...strange people...beautiful dinner. Talked with Joni Mitchell on the phone. I think I'll record her tonight with my excellent tape recorder (knock on wood). Went down to the club to see Joni, fantastic girl with heaven words. We all got to party. OK, millions of girls....We left Ottawa city today. I kissed Joni goodbye." This apparently was before Joni became *big*. How did Hendrix find out about her? Who called whom? Did he get his bootleg recording and does it still exist? "Millions of girls"?? What did they have for breakfast? I'm agog. Rick in Belcarra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:09:04 -0400 From: "Beverly" Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings Paul wrote: ><know who Charlie Angel is? Bob wrote: >It should also be noted that "Charlie" was the reference to the American Soldier, so Killer Kyle could in fact be Charlie Angel. I hate to dispute you, Bob - but "Charlie" was "Viet-Speak" or slang for a Vietcong soldier (the "enemy" at the time), not a reference to an American soldier. Other slang names for Vietcong soldiers were Victor Charles (VC), and Mr. Charles - Charlie for short. I've always thought that Joni was singing "Charlie Angel," and that it was a reference to all the American soldiers who were killed by "Charlie." Bev ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:00:25 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem/Kids these days Phyliss wrote: >It's hard to believe there are that many people out there that >would do these kinds of things. Then there are the >others that watch and support it. Well there aren't that many people in general out there who would do those kinds of things. I just live at ground zero of a very big population center and so the numbers rise exponentially. Plus, by the sheer numbers there is probably more opportunity for mob mentality to raise its ugly head. Add to that a police department and city government who don't want any more scandal or bad press and never want the big riots to ever happen here again, and the business interests who want to continue to benefit from the tourist dollar and need to keep up the good PR image at all costs. The ones who stand by watching it, or worse yet, enjoying it, are the ones who really get to me. And just to clarify to people - I'm not blaming this on Eminen or "young people". While it may be clever of him artistically to pair his lyrics with a catchy melody, the content of those lyrics are just another (but certainly not the only) example of the promotion of desensitization in our culture. And the music biz enables and elevates it with all the awards and rewards they bestow on these artists. The powers that be in the biz can certainly do whatever they want. And I can decry the promotion of desensitization to violence, too. Where is the redeeming social value of it for ALL people? However, I think most of the music of the 60s that our parents may have objected to is like listening to Circle Game in comparison to this stuff. I lived and loved the 60s music but I never agreed with the glorification of drugs and other shit in a lot of *it*, either. Kakki NP: Joni Cheese Disc - ugh! ;-D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:35:40 -0500 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: MORE JACO Hey Bruce, Wayne's and Jaco's genius was never more evident then in Weather Report with Joe Zawinul, a band that really charted new territory. I saw Jaco w/ them 3 times, the first being in 1975 or 76 before he had recorded "Black Market". Just amazing, and Alphonzo "Slim" Johnson, who preceded him in the band was no slouch. Shorter of course was a member of one of Miles Davis' pivotal bands as well, but I think his work with Zawinul showed his penchant for space, a less is more concept, and wonderful harmonic sensibility. Both Jaco and Wayne were a very profound influence on me at an early age, as was Joni in an altogether different way. I'm grateful that she collaborated with Jaco, and continues to do so w/ Wayne, as it has produced some of the most original American music. I never tire of Mingus and Shadow's and Light, and agree that Hejira would have too much sameness if it weren't for Jaco's contribution to the texture. He was a regular fixture at the BB courts in the village at the time I lived in NYC, sometimes playing, but most often just hanging talking trash. It's too bad he couldn't have sought professional help. Per Joni's comment to" Musician" in the posthumous edition however, few of his musical friend's knew how to deal with him. Dave F. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:04:04 -0700 From: "gene mock" Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings i think "charlie angel" is a play on a old song "johnny angel". "johnny angel in the old song was an ideal american male whose affections were sought by the singer. "charlie angel" is what "johnny angel" has become. as joni says,"a chalkmark in a rainstorm." then again, "the beat of black wings" could be the human wave assaults the vc's made on our positions. viet cong were often characterized by wearing black pajamas. "charlie angel" could be a vc that "killer kyle" killed. what do you think? take care gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: Beverly To: ; Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 8:09 PM Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings > Paul wrote: > > ><know who Charlie Angel is? > > Bob wrote: > > > >It should also be noted that "Charlie" was the reference to the American > Soldier, so Killer Kyle could in fact be Charlie Angel. > > > I hate to dispute you, Bob - but "Charlie" was "Viet-Speak" or slang for a > Vietcong soldier (the "enemy" at the time), not a reference to an American > soldier. Other slang names for Vietcong soldiers were Victor Charles (VC), > and Mr. Charles - Charlie for short. > > I've always thought that Joni was singing "Charlie Angel," and that it was a > reference to all the American soldiers who were killed by "Charlie." > > Bev > > > > > ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #350 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?