From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #349 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Thursday, June 22 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 349 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Blowup (1966) njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: new job (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] what's the most happiest joni song? ["Ada Wittenberger" ] Re: Beat of Black Wings (fuck) ["Ada Wittenberger" ] RE: catman ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: joni and judy [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Eminem (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Eminem (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Don Rowe = Larry Klein NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Mitchell's Canadian voice [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Beat of Black Wings [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Rhythms Take Three [Joseph Palis ] Re: Kids these days (NJC) [MGVal@aol.com] [none] ["Joni Fan" ] Re: YOUR positive comments are needed ["P. Henry" ] Re: Eminem (NJC) ["Reuben Bell" ] enima-er, eminem (NJC) [Steve Polifka ] Re: JONI / JACO [B Merrill ] "Centerpiece" as a centerpiece [B Merrill ] Re: YOUR positive comments are needed ["Joni Fan" ] brilliant?!?!? ["P. Henry" ] Re: Eminem (NJC) (md) [MDESTE1@aol.com] JACO / SHORTER [dave fairall / beth miller ] Traveling in some vehicle (to Beaumont Texas) [JMDL content] [Brian Gross] who described BSN show as too explicit? [B Merrill ] Assorted Joni Stuff on my Site ["Ken (slarty)" ] Re: Beat of Black Wings [Catherine McKay ] Re: Mitchell's Canadian voice ["Ken (slarty)" ] Re: joni bashing in downbeat [Bounced Message ] VLJC - Kathie Lee Gifford to divorce Frank, marry Eminem [Murphycopy@aol.] Re: who described BSN show as too explicit? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Top Secret ["Ada Wittenberger" ] Re: Beat of Black Wings ["Ada Wittenberger" ] Re: who described BSN show as too explicit? [Don Rowe ] Re: NJC - The Real Eminem [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:19:35 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Blowup (1966) njc the only thing the article fails to mention is that "blowup" is based on a story by argentine writer julio cortázar, author of "hopscotch", among many other masterpieces. wally el K, VERY nationalistic at freezing-cold 4 am. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:57:42 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: new job (NJC) Sue wrote: >Congratulations on the job! Is this something that can be taped >for the UK fest or will you be filming for future telecast? > >I am a big fan of UK comedies and watch them quite frequently >on our PBS station. Not familiar with the one you are working on. >Can you give us a plot line? And I'll add my congratulations too! And maybe I can help with a brief plot-line. I used to watch Grange Hill religiously every day after school. It's a TV series set in a school in England (Grange Hill), and was my all-time favourite as a young teenager. My mother hated it "As a teacher I see that stuff all day - I don't see why I should have to watch it at home too!" so I was always banished to the old black and white TV in the back room! It basically focuses on a group of school-kids and their lives, and deals (pretty well) with lots of current issues - drugs, sex, etc. Mind you, it's probably 20 years since I last saw it, so it may have completely changed since then - or maybe it's a completely different programme, and you can ignore everything I've just said! Have I got it right, Jamie? Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:32:30 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: what's the most happiest joni song? ?????????? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:38:11 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: RE: catman(facist...?) i know nothing of "that" thread - must have been away. what was it all about? yours, nuriel >From: "Chris Marshall" >Reply-To: "Chris Marshall" >To: >Subject: RE: catman >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:57:46 -0700 > >Ada wrote:- > > is everything alright with catman? he's not in some "2 grey rooms" case >i > > hope so just tell me he's ok. > >Well, he *is* OK, but he's not on the list at the moment, having left >due to the "Colin's facist statement" thread. > >I'm not surprised actually. > >I *am* pretty f*****g upset, though, that due to someone so blatantly >getting it wrong about him, he's felt the need to leave. We're all the >poorer for it, him included. > >We *all* loose. > >A plague on both your houses. > >--Chris (about 30 miles down the road from Colin, but feeling further > away for the lack of his presence here) > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:46:11 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings (fuck) fucking music - i'm out. >From: Siresorrow@aol.com >Reply-To: Siresorrow@aol.com >To: wallykai@interserver.com.ar, leslie@torchsongs.com, joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:49:05 EDT > >In a message dated 6/21/00 9:32:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: > ><< to me it has always sounded like "tired angel". >> > >i thought maybe...child angel... in any event, i love that song. it is >one >of my favorites of joni's and it has such a cool illiteration...the beat >..boom.tik tik tik tik boom tik tik .. and then you can hear the little >wings >going faintly...dikadikadikadika >and what a great line...i never had nothing to believe in...plus, she says >the f word. and i have to love that! >pat >np. beat of black wings ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:04:18 -0700 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: catman It's been pointed out that my saying "a plague on both your houses" was probably inappropriate. It summed up my feeling that everyone was losing out as a result of all this. I later (in the shower, where lightning bolts of inspriation often strike) realised that its use in the play is direct condemnation of both parties by Cpt. Prince and that it wasn't the best quote I could have chosen. So, Shakespearian bit retracted, the rest still stands. - --Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:15:56 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: joni and judy - ----- Original Message ----- From: P. Henry > btw, one selection on 'In My Life', by Donovan, > also had what would later become a Joni-link... > see if you can find it: > > Sunny Goodge Street - That's what we need Pat - a Donovan revival !! Sunshine Superman, Mellow Yellow, Jennifer Juniper. All that flower power. I love it. BTW Joni quoted that very line from Sunny Goodge Street in a radio interview on RTE in 1983 and on Les's site. She said: "Mingus could have walked through the streets of New York fairly anonymously untill Donovan sang "Mingus mellow fantastic" and that Charles liked. that increased celebrity." Philip > "On the firefly platform on sunny Goodge Street > Violent hash-smoker shook a chocolate machine > Involved in an eating scene. > Smashing into neon lights in their stillness > Smearing their eyes on the crazy Kali goddess > Listenin' to ***sounds of Mingus mellow fantastic.*** > "My, my", they sigh, > "My, my", they sigh. > La la etc. > In dull house rooms with coloured lights swingin' > Strange music boxes sadly tinklin' > Drink in the sun shining all around you. > "My, my", they sigh, > "My, my", they sigh. > La la etc. > The magician, he sparkles in satin and velvet, > You gaze at his splendour with eyes you've not used yet. > I tell you his name is Love, Love, Love. > "My, my", they sigh, > "My, my", they sigh." > > :o) > > pat > > > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:20:33 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Eminem (NJC) AngelinoCoyote@aol.com wrote: > I have had an age old rule about getting in the middle of a conflict of > opinion between two pals. I met both Vince and Michael in Chicago and have > nothing but respect for their opinions. Rick, thanks for the words- I don't feel that there is any conflict between Michael and me (and he is a great guy), as I said, I didn't read the original post by Michael so I wasn't responding to Michael and in conflict with him in any way. Should it be that Michael and I have different opinions on Eminem, well, that is life. And there will be nothing more on this from me as I said what I said and others have and will also speak on this. When we have all different perspectives before us, we will be better off for being better informed. So, for me, no conflict with Michael, and time for me to say hi to Michael! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:35:02 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Eminem (NJC) On a scale of 1-10 it seems to me John Rocker is a 2 and Eminem is a 10. I went back and re-read Rockers comments and then read Eminems lyrics. My question is what kind of society asks for Rockers head and then intelectualizes someone like Eminem. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:50:47 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Don Rowe = Larry Klein NJC During the recent tour, in Detroit, when "Larry Klein" came out on stage, I yelled out, "Hey, Don" and while "Larry Klein" did not respond, "Don Rowe" is slick that way so it proves nothing. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu Jun 22 07:42:10 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Mitchell's Canadian voice <> To me, it's not so evident in her singing, you can pick it up when she's in conversation, and when she's interviewing or performing in Canada she really turns it up a notch, sorta like the accent is always there, but she suppresses it when she's out of her native country. As to her choice of abode, she does have a rural getaway where she writes and paints, but a large part of her prefers the rush and glitz of LA. "I couldn't let go of LA, city of the fallen angels..." And like when she was in Mattala and had a hankerin' to get back to her clean white linen and fancy French cologne, she balances her urban and rural life to her satisfaction it seems - I don't see her ever going 100% one way or the other. Bob NP: Cherry Poppin' Daddies, "Master & Slave" ------------------------------ Date: Thu Jun 22 07:51:43 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings <> It should also be noted that "Charlie" was the reference to the American Soldier, so Killer Kyle could in fact be Charlie Angel. It's also suspected that the fellow in "Cactus Tree", the "man with medals from the war", is also Kyle. In actuality he was a soldier Joni met early on her career when she sung through Fort Bragg in Fayatteville, NC (called Fayette-Nam by a lotta North Carolinians) Just a little trivia from a trivial mind! Happy Thursdy all! Bob NP: Cherry Poppin' Daddies, "No Mercy For Swine" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:37:16 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Rhythms Take Three There is a jazz radio in Manila that has this segment called "Rhythms Take Three" -- where a chosen song is played in three different versions (at least of which is jazz). They usually play standards like "Someone to Watch Over Me", etc. Lately, they have been featuring compositions of David Frishberg, and this morning I heard them tackle Joni's "Woodstock". They started out with Tuck&Patti's version (can be heard in Bob's cover versions) followed by CSNY's rendition. Then the DJ talked about why the song is a classic enough to warrant various versions (I could feel that the DJ has an obvious love for Joni because of his descriptions), and finally he played Joni's original version, which, when heard on the radio can give goosebumps to anyone listening because of the hushed beauty that Joni brought to the song, and that soprano voice that begs to be played late at night or early morning: so fragile it should only be played during magical times of the day. It made my day! Joseph np: Laura Fygi "Lady Wants To Know" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:57:58 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Kids these days (NJC) In a message dated 6/21/00 6:28:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << He may be this year's outrage. I hope his lyrics don't breed violence but the thought of kids taking those lyrics seriously scares me. But I don't blame the kids. Eminem and those who are telling him how great he is are all adults with an eye to making money. Adults these days... now that is a subject the kids ought to be commenting on. >> This Eminem thread is pretty timely. I've been talking w/ my daughter about this one because she likes to catch the song "The Real Slim Shady" when it is on the radio. I never knew the lyrics before but the chorus is pretty catchy and appears to be rather innocent. Until you dig deeper. And you know, I think that you get two categories of kids with these sorts of lyrics. Some just *like* the catchy chorus and the lyrics do not register at all. Others are going to be the way I was in my teens with Joni: headphones on and finding messages in every utterance. It's the latter group that scares me. As Coyote's article from the "Advocate" points out, he may be no more of a homophobe than a mother killer or rapist, but what few songs I've heard of his don't seem to be crafted to make people shake off conventions and say; "Hey!" They seem crafted to increase his bank account. This thread also ties in with a recent Bay Area rap concert. The review said that part of the show had a video where Snoop Dog Eat Dog and a companion gunned down someone. And they stood over the victim, turned to the audience and asked: "Should we waste him." The audience's exuberant answer was "YES!" Will this audience want to go out and kill someone? Maybe not, but a seed has been planted, however tiny and however small odds of flowering, that associates exuberance with wasting someone. And that's the biggest crime of lyrics such as the ones we have discussed. It's not so much that kids are going to be encouraged to kill parents or rape sisters or hate fags, it's that they are going to associate these extremely hostile actions with perky, catchy beats that feed into "feel-good" music, while the record companies laugh all the way to the bank. It would be one thing if the music was art designed like a "piss Christ" to shake the shackles of convention, but this music is crafted and marketed for kids who have yet to really form a solid idea of either "piss" or "Christ." MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:40:39 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: [none] Your message #66 on the www.rollingstone.com Joni board was brilliant! Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 05:47:39 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: YOUR positive comments are needed I'm coming in several days late on this one but, sorry loree, I have to agree with don and the several others who have basically said it's a waste of time... however, before I came to this conclusion, I was reading some of the posts and jumped to the end to spit out my own, albeit brief gut (knee-jerk?) reaction as follows: Date: 06/22/2000 @ 5:06:49 AM Posted by: phenryb "I've got a 'wake up and smell the coffee' hot flash for all those misguided souls who would trash Joni... there's about an 85% chance that YOUR favorite artist lists her as one of their main influences! think about it!" ...but even this short response was, I'm sure, a waste of bandwidth as it was meant for someone with, at the very least, the cognitive ability of an 8yr old and I'm afraid those are obviously in short supply among the RS crowd... I didn't read many but particularly enjoyed (NOT!) the ramblings of #64... LoL! what a moron!!! this epithet really gave me a chuckle: "There is nothing she has done that is EASY to listen to or follow! I'm not saying that I'm all about easy listening music... not at all! (oh no! LoL!!!) I'm just saying intelligent music is not reliant upon "cramming" phrases and ideas and it is not where there are melodies that are so saturated that they can't be followed!" no loree, I'm afraid there ain't much fertile ground in that field, but, as the name implies, mostly stones... er, rocks. pst Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 06:07:29 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: positive comments - ps... loree, I also want to say that I respect your heart for wanting to reach out that those less fortunate might come to know the depth of beauty you have experienced through Joni's art... the pathos and the soul... it is very Joni-like... it is how she reached us! ...but, alas, lest we cast our (her) pearls before swine, to be trampled underneath, I fear we must be satisfied that she HAS reached them and been made known to them... indirectly, through SO many other artists I dare not mention any at the risk of neglecting the multitude of others... she is in our blood like holy wine and, to a lesser, diluted degree, she is also in theirs, whether they know it, or like it, or not! peace, pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 05:57:28 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Eminem (NJC) Rick, Thanks for posting this! I was getting ready to dig The Advocate out of my briefcase and do the same thing! I do not profess to be a fan of Eminem, but I don't think he should be written off just because he is a trash mouth. I think his stuff borders on some sort of performance art...I've watched several MTV/ect. interviews, and quickly realized that he has a point to what he is doing, and it may not neccessarily be a bad one. I don't like his style, but he's definitely got a plan. His big beef at the moment is the music industry. He often waxes Joniesque on the sorry state of pop music and the starmaker machinery. He might be ok... Reuben >From: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com >Reply-To: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com >To: revrvl@pathwaynet.com, mwyarbro@midway.uchicago.edu (michael w >yarbrough), joni@smoe.org >Subject: Eminem (NJC) >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:26:57 EDT > >I have had an age old rule about getting in the middle of a conflict of >opinion between two pals. I met both Vince and Michael in Chicago and have >nothing but respect for their opinions. However, I will stretch that rule >some since The Advocate came out with an article about Eminem in the issue >I >received today. I tried going to their home page to download or copy this, >but it's not one of their online articles. Later is an attempt at >transcribing (please excuse the typos, boys). After hearing it on the >radio, >I bought the CD, have listened to it many times, and actually like it. >But, >it's not near my tops of the pops, and I was taken aback by some of the >lyrics. Didn't really bother me much Vince, but they did get my attention. >Anyway, I thought y'all might be interested in the Advocate's view: > >Title: A bad rap? By: David White >Subheading: Rapper Eminem slings trash about gays (and everybody else) in >his lyrics. But should we hate him for it? > >Let's play the name game. Marshall Mathers is a rapper. His stage name is >Eminem. And Eninem's alter ego is Slim Shady. He's three men in one, with >an >identity as mysterious as his beats are heavy and rhythmically complex. >His >rhymes are tense, witty, vicious, self-loathing, and horrific. His brutal >hip-hop hooliganism has earned unprecedented media attention - both scorn >and >praise. In response to his May release, The Marshall Mathers LP >(Interscope), the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation objected to >such lyrics as "My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge/That'll stab >you in the head whether you are a fag or les...Hate Fags? The answer's >yes." > Meanwhile Newsweek called Eminem "arguably the most compelling figure in >all >of pop music." > >Let's keep playing the name game, or rather, the name-calling game. First, >who's he calling faggot? Is it me? You? N'Sync? The suits at the record >company? Second, who's doing the calling? Is it Eminem? Slim Shady? >Marshall Mathers? All or none of the above? And does the fact that he >uses >the six letter f word at all on The Marshall Mathers LP make him the enemy? > >Not quite. In the intro to the above quoted song, "Criminal," Eminem >states, "A lot of people think that what I say on record or talk about on a >record...if I say that I wanna kill somebody, that I'm actually gonna do it >or that I believe in it, well shit. If you believe that, then I'll kill >you!" At the songs end, he even adds, "Relax guy! I like gay men!" > >If he has gay-bashed you or me, then it logically follows that he has also >raped his own mother, killed his wife, and murdered his producer, Dr. Dre. >If he's to be taken literally, then so is Britney Spears' invitation to >"hit >me baby, one more time." > >As if anticipating the reaction to this collection of Halloween masks he >hides behind, Eminem taunts, "I am whatever you say I am ," on the track >"The Way I Am." What then does Eminem want? He wants to confound, to make >good and evil switch places, to drop beats and bombs at the same time. He >succeeds on all counts. > >No regrets, > >Coyote (Rick) >Casa Alegre >Hollywood, California > >I'll be dancin' on a pony keg. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:18:08 -0500 From: Steve Polifka Subject: enima-er, eminem (NJC) Hi... I just realized why I have not made it big! I should be talkin' shit instead of writing touching, meaningful songs that tell a story! What was I thinking! Thanks for clueing me in! Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:47:55 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: JONI / JACO Hi Dave, >Given the fact that they were doing so much blow on that tour, it seems >even more amazing that >they were able to produce the masterpiece Shadows and Light, especially >Brecker and Jaco's fantastic version of "Dry Cleaner". The point is often made in the Milkowski book that Jaco's extraordinary virtuosity and physical stamina made is possible for him to get away with heavy drugging that would have wiped out lesser mortals. (A two-fold capacity he shared with Charlie Parker!) And that even in his deep decline he could sometimes get his chops back... In other words, perhaps if he had been less of a musician he would have not been ruined? Certainly his original high manic energy links to both his high musicianship and his eventual self-destruction. BTW, I have to apologize for this dumb question: > Jaco was such a phenomenal musician (the most creative & >extraordinary >musician that Joni has worked with?) That was not a rhetorical question, i.e. not that stupid. But stupid nonetheless, in that I'd forgotten about both Mingus and Shorter-- both great musicians, and whose compositional skills put JP in eclipse. (And is Shorter another Cocaine casualty? What's happened to that guy??) Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:47:06 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: "Centerpiece" as a centerpiece >Number Six: "Harry's House/Centerpiece" by Martha Stewart. > >(SFX: APPLAUSE) My claps were in there. Martha might be able to sing about this with a certain amount of feeling. Just Might. (What is the "inner Martha" that lies behind that smiling competence and ambition?) Hissing focuses especially upon the decline of romance into marriage & materialism: Marthaland. (If HH/C were written now, perhaps there would be a line about Martha.) The Mandel and Hendricks song, "Centerpiece" embraces this decline within an ambiguity: When he wishes to make his beloved a centerpiece in this lovely "little cottage on the outskirts," is this a matter of romantic elevation, or a matter of possession and materialism? What kind of centerpiece will she be? That is the question. I'll wager that Joni began this composite song by seeing the ambiguity in "Centerpiece." Then she answered the question by making "Centerpiece" the centerpiece of "Harry's house," by setting this song within the context of Harry's possessiveness (material & conjugal). More precisely between the abrupt decline from the erotic vision of the glistening youthful female body by the pool.... down to the big house where "nothing's any good," despite all the fun things we can do with Harry's take home pay. "... you can rely on your old man's money... ... cause you know it doesn't matter anyway..." Bruce M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:08:09 GMT From: "Joni Fan" Subject: Re: YOUR positive comments are needed > I'm coming in several days late on this one but, >sorry loree, I have to agree with don and the >several others who have basically said it's a >waste of time... This letter is for many of you, not just phenryb by any means! Read the first thirty posts of the www.rollingstone.com message board . . . they are basically positive, some just plain gushing over Joni. Hecklers (as someone has called them) took over. Evidently, their strategy is very effective as it persuades positive folks to stay away. Only one heckler has returned since the very few of us put positive posts back on that message board. Many people go to the Rolling Stone site for information. I did an Internet search for "Joni Mitchell" and rollingstone.com articles came up, so a varied audience reads it NOT just the RS crowd. It was the rollingstone.com site that referred me to jonimitchell.com which is how I came to be a member of this discussion list this week. I was impressed with the rollingstone.com section on Joni and for those interested to know more, would look at the message board. You and others assume everyone that goes to that site is a moron with an "8 year old mentality" (forgive us, the 8-year-olds of the world). You have managed to insult me and others directly. Because of course, we went there to read more on Joni, including the message board. I was enjoying the message board until half way through. I am struck with the volume of threads posted on JMDL groaning over today's youth and the negativity. But yet you all have an opportunity to put positive comments out there. Yet there are those willing to write it off as a "waste of time" which is probably convenient. As to my other "waste of time" activities in my life, I am working with a local community to put in a proper shelter to save the lives of over 100 domestic animals a month. And with that project, I find it interesting how I hear from the majority of individuals, the very same arguement . . . that it is a "waste of time". And like many, my heart breaks for that poor German Shepherd that was so abused. We HAVE to be proactive in life. It all makes me sick, but I do SOMETHING about it. I can't help that particular dog, but I can help the local ones. I work with the youth that I know . . . it isn't always easy, but I continue. And I learn much from them. I know all of you out there DO have your causes. I KNOW you are doing SOMETHING about the things you care about. Please share them and stop telling people that their efforts are a "waste of time." Loree ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:14:39 EDT From: TIKIMOON007@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #348 Thank you all for welcoming in me to the list. To let you know a little about myself, I am 22 and from right outside Boston, MA. I recently attended the fleet pavilion with 2nd row center seats to see the fabulous Joni. What an experience it was my first show of hers and I was completely amazed, couldn't have went any better and the seats couldn't have been any better. I just graduated college up in VT now it is time to search for what everyone seems to call a "real job" whatever that is suppose to mean. My favorite Joni album is Court and Spark but if some of you asked me to choose between For the Roses and Hejira, well I would choose For the roses even though Hejira is absolutely wonderful and I can listen to it over and over again just like any other Joni album. Have a wonderful day everyone!! Stacy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:24:08 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: PWWAM Kakki wrote: >As far as the Joni taping, the chance to go happened so quickly that we >were >too gaga and blithering about it all before, during and after to >think about >more practical matters. "Gaga and blithering" is exactly right! I actually brought my camera with me the first night. Did I get it together enough to use it? No! At least Marsha (?) got some stills... ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:02:43 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: brilliant?!?!? aw shucks! ;o) - -- On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:40:39 Joni Fan wrote: >Your message #66 on the www.rollingstone.com Joni board was brilliant! > >Loree Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:05:36 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Eminem (NJC) (md) In a message dated 6/22/00 6:32:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, reubenbell@hotmail.com writes: << His big beef at the moment is the music industry. He often waxes Joniesque on the sorry state of pop music and the starmaker machinery. >> Wait a minute. This clown is on fricken MTV being interviewed, out doing concerts in huge venues, being paid major bucks to basically verbally defecate and hes got a BITCH with the music industry ???? I do to. Its called flush this turd down the toilet along with about a hundred others like him and the process of restoring value to artistic apreciation of music will commence. I realize that there is a fine line between cutting edge art and pure ca ca but I have already intimated where I think Eminem belongs. Snuff films probably have a "market" but who cares its still hideous S_____t that should be rejected outright by the music industry. Unapologeticly yours. marcel deste. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:19:43 -0500 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: JACO / SHORTER Bruce, Interesting observations about Jaco......he certainly possessed the ability to play while under the influence. I once saw the Word of Mouth Big Band at the now defunct Birdland South in NYC, and after a smokin first set, in which he conducted the band by gesturing with the neck of his bass, he disappeared for an hour and a half. The crowd was getting antsy, and when he finally returned for set #2... he was totally wasted. Played his ass off though, and members of the 24 piece band seemed more amused then upset. A year of so later I saw him with his trio, {Mike Stern + Kenwood Dennard}, at Blues Alley in Georgetown DC, and he repeated that behavior. At that gig I spoke to him briefly, and he was virtually incoherent, glassy eyed and rambling. Somehow the second set really cooked however, and after he left Blues Alley he turned up at another club and sat in w/ an R+B band, for which Scott Ambush, {Spyro Gyra}, was playing bass. Scott likes to tell the story that Jaco sat in and played so loud he literally blew up his amp. Saw him several years later sitting against the fence at the Greenwich Village basketball courts w/ a boom box playing a Weather Report tape, badly in need of a bath...... really sad. There's a long list of visionary musicians who've self-destructed, {Kenny Kirkland is the latest that comes to mind}, and I hope Wayne Shorter is not going that route too. My understanding is that Wayne has been keeping a very low profile, {only a few duo dates w/ Herbie Hancock}, since his wife and daughter perished in the TWA 800 explosion off the East Moriches Long Island coast on July 17, 1996. Thanks, Dave F. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:23:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Traveling in some vehicle (to Beaumont Texas) [JMDL content] Hi gang, I'm headed to Beaumont Texas next week (6/27/00) for a few days of work. Any jmdlers in the area? If so, let me know by the weekend and I have Joni-tape-goodies to share! And I also know where there's a great Chinese Cafe (buffet) from a previous trip there. Don't be shy. Come on out! Hope to hear from you, Brian np: Joni at the Greek in LA 5/12/00 (the stayfree recording!) ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:22:04 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: who described BSN show as too explicit? About 3 weeks ago (?) Somebody wrote about Joni's current BSN show as too explicit and didactic. That Joni was be-laboring the case that these songs were positioned within the chronology of a typical love affair. The typical rise and fall of it all. You began to dislike this over the course of the show. Unfortunately, I didn't save your post. Please forgive me; I'll never do this again! If you (the author) or anyone else recalls and still has this post, could you re-zap it to me, please. Pluh-eeeze! (I've already made reference to this post in a prior message, so you see it has stayed on my mind.) And: is the sequencing of the current album the same (more or less?) as the sequencing of the show?? thanks, Bruce M merrillb@crisny.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:34:20 -0400 From: "Ken (slarty)" Subject: Assorted Joni Stuff on my Site For those who haven't seen it I have an assortment of Joni related stuff on my site including a Joni Art Screen Saver Program, Joni Icons, a Joni Cursor, Joni Midi Files and now a Joni Tileset for Kyodai Mahjongg plus a link to download the game. Programs are for Windows 95/98. http://millennium.fortunecity.com/sherwood/452/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:38:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings - --- leslie@torchsongs.com wrote: > I remember a while back there was a thread regarding > the "Beat of Black Wings." Did we ever resolve what > the lyrics are to the sections between verses in > BoBW? > Something > like "Charlie Angel" ... > In the music book they actually have "Charlie Angel", but I always thought it was "Johnny Angel" as in the song from the 60's (?), or maybe late 50's: "Johnny Angel, how I love him..." I think it may have been sung by Shelley Fabares or another teen queen of the time. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:37:12 -0400 From: "Ken (slarty)" Subject: Re: Mitchell's Canadian voice This might not be the case. Tax laws might not let her remove above a set amount of money that she has made in the States. B Merrill wrote: > SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: I do feel like she compares her > >country rural upbringing with the faster-paced American culture and prefers > >the former... > > If that's the case, then why does she live in the US? Has she answered this > question? > Being wealthy, she could live wherever she chooses. > > Since I missed the prior thread, I'd be happy to hear more about her > Canadian voice. > > Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:42:09 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: joni bashing in downbeat Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 02:15:40 +0000 From: Kenny Grant Hey David (and all Joni fans), How've you been? I'm planning to come by to Judy's for your show sometime soon! There've been so many posts on the Downbeat "bashing" that I didn't know which one to reply to, so I chose yours :-) First, I haven't picked up the July edition, but plan to this week. Dying to read the article. I had the pleasure of attending 4 of the shows on Joni's recent BSN tour, as well as listening to the CD several dozen times. Joni, throughout her career, is no stranger to bad press. She has a knack of being quoted out of context, or simply finding herself in situations where a lengthy response to a question is editorially reduced to a sentence or two that doesn't cast her in a very positive light. Also I've noticed over the years that many interviewers have, IMO, prodded her into answering questions of a comparative nature (e.g. do you find similarities between your work and Jewel's/Sheryl Crow's/Alanis Morisette's/Ani DeFranco's, etc., etc. etc.). If she replies that she's not very familiar with another - typically younger - - artist's work, she's immediately shunned and portrayed as egocentric. But where is it written that Joni MUST listen to everyone else's' work? Being a singer/songwriter/musician herself does not REQUIRE that she spend her spare time listening to the works of other artists. And the press seems to have a field day harping on the fact that she doesn't devote her free time to studying the works of of other contemporary artists, and that, almost by default, she's therefore egocentric, and better than them. And if, god forbid, she has something positive to say about the works of Billiie Holiday, Chuck Berry, Edith Piaf, Bob Dylan, The Persuasions, Marvin Gaye, Miles Davis, and so on (singers/songwriters/musicians whose works she grew up listening to, or she was inspired by, or whatever), the press somehow finds it necessary to point out that she considers herself to be part of a different league -- all because Joni has CHOSEN not to follow the careers of younger singer/songwriter/musicians. It's the lady's choice....not the choice of the press. As to employing a term like "musically uninformed" -- that's our Joni. She's entitled to say what she wants to. "Critics of all expression, judges in black and white, saying it's wrong, saying it's right." She wrote that some 25 years ago. She knew back then, as she knows today, that you'll never please everyone; she's accepted that, and as opposed to censoring herself, and she says what what comes to mind. As far as "ego of the year" goes, I personally think that's way off base. I remember when she won her Grammy for Turbulent Indigo, she didn't know what to say cause she was so "stunned." And when she accepted her Billboard Lifetime Achievement award, she mentioned that she'd spent days trying to trying to find the perfect balance of dignity and humility in accepting the award, and closed by holding the award and saying "thank you music-lovers, everywhere!" Hardly egocentric. And I sensed no ego what-so-ever at the recent TNT tribute which I had the pleasure of attending -- 6 row center, but what I noticed was flattery, honor, and humility. Again, I haven't read the Downbeat article yet. If it contains any "ego," IMO, it's well deserved, because a talent like Joni's simply doesn't come along all that frequently. But in the past 5 yrs, at different, assorted honors, I found Joni to be very humble. Best, Kenny Dflahm@aol.com wrote: > Obviously, the letter-writers quoted from DOWNBEAT were unhappy with JM's > comments (and perhaps her in general). But how does that qualify as > "bashing?" > > IMO, "bashing" would ocur when 100 letters in praise of JM arrived at > DOWNBEAT and the editors chose (therein the bash) to reprint the only two > negative ones. > > > DAVID LAHM =========================================================== PLS NOTE: my new email address is "kg1@bellatlantic.net" Any email sent to "kg@ibm.net" after 10/1/00 will NOT be rec'd =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:07:38 EDT From: Murphycopy@aol.com Subject: VLJC - Kathie Lee Gifford to divorce Frank, marry Eminem Kathie Lee Gifford to divorce Frank, marry Eminem In yet another move that’s sure to stun her vast legions of loyal fans, Kathie Lee Gifford today revealed that she has left her husband, Football Hall of Famer Frank Gifford, for hotshot singer/songwriter/artist Eminem. "After I found the strength to move away from the whole Regis thing, I felt empowered," Kathie Lee gushed. "Oprah helped, of course. And when I recorded ‘The Circle Game’ I knew Frank had to go, too. I mean, duh! Who needs his little side dishes of flight attendants looking at me from every tabloid in the check-out line? I mean, hello! What about my needs?" She paused, looked wistfully off into space, and smiled. "And while I was feeling all these crazy, mixed-up emotions, while I was so vulnerable and so alone, I went to a Burger King and met Eminem. He was so romantic. He spit on my onion rings and, well, I just went all squirmy inside. I’d actually never met anyone like that before," she purred. "You know," Kathie Lee continued, her eyes misting, "Joni Mitchell once said, ‘They introduce this, like, really stinko band but they seem so much incredibly bad confetti looking at them on my enormous big-screen TV,’ or something like that." She hesitated for a moment, and broke into a radiant smile. "But Eminem, or ‘M&M,’ as I like to call him, his stuff is different. He’s a real artist." She reached over and pinched the young rapper’s cheek, cooing, "You’re Mommy’s widdle wigga, aren’t you? You’re my widdle wigga wappa, aren’t you? Yes, you are, yes, you are! And you wuv your Mommy, don’t you? Don’t you?" Eminem just smiled, violently. The happy couple also announced plans for an album they’re recording together. Tentatively titled, ‘Bitchslapped,’ it will be a "conceptual work which traces the arc of a sordid little attraction between an immature, misogynistic homophobe and a head case who attained infamy by violating Third World child labor practices for personal gain," Eminem said proudly. "’Bitchslapped’ will also feature Kenny G, Judy Collins, Joan Baez and Mrs. Miller," according to the rapper. "And Tommy Lee and Jackson Browne, of course," Kathie Lee laughed. "Plus, as a special farewell salute to Frank, my soon-to-be-ex, we’ll be recording ‘My Old Man,’ by Joni Mitchell. "We’ll even have dead people on the new CD," Eminem said proudly. "We’ve actually been sampling some primo Tito Puente, if you know what I mean." Asked about her children, Cody and Cassidy, Kathie Lee seemed confused, "Aren’t those Joni Mitchell songs?" she asked, "They’re on ‘Hejira,’ right? Or is it ‘Hissing?’" ------------------------------ Date: Thu Jun 22 13:08:31 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: who described BSN show as too explicit? <> No more or less about it, Bruce...the show was the BSN album in EXACTLY the same sequence. Bob NP: Diana Krall w/The Chieftains, "Danny Boy" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:18:27 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: Top Secret hi everyone - it's been days since i've asked you "do you know where joni's debut was recorded, since there's no place's name mentioned on the detail list" - and no one answered me so i wonder - you don't know where or is it a top secret? love to get an answer. yours, nuriel ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:06:54 GMT From: "Ada Wittenberger" Subject: Re: Beat of Black Wings The soldier (in joni's video - and acted by herslef) is black. >From: leslie@torchsongs.com >Reply-To: leslie@torchsongs.com >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Beat of Black Wings >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:23:39 -0700 (PDT) > >I remember a while back there was a thread regarding >the "Beat of Black Wings." Did we ever resolve what >the lyrics are to the sections between verses in BoBW? > Something >like "Charlie Angel" ... > >Leslie ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:10:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: who described BSN show as too explicit? - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > No more or less about it, Bruce...the show was the > BSN album in EXACTLY the same sequence. > And since Joni and I developed BSN as a "concept" album tracing the "arc" of a love affair ... wouldn't changing the order make it the "oblique angles" of a love affair? Or something more radical ... the "polygon" of a acquaintance? The "vectors" of a friendship? Yeah, and you thought my liner notes were over the top! ;-D Lary Klein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:26:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Kids these days (NJC) - --- RandyRemote wrote: > Well said Vince. I say boycott the little bastard [Eminem or however you spell it.] > Here's a sample of his work: > "my words are like a dagger with a jagged edge/ > I'll stab you in the head, whether you're fag or > les/ > Or a homosex, a hermaph or a trans-a-ves/ > Pants or dress/Hate fags? the answer's yes/" This is shocking. It's one thing to make social commentary on what you think is wrong with the world (a good old-fashioned protest song!) but this is sheer hate-mongering. I had no idea the guy used lyrics like that. My daughter really likes his song "The real slim Sadie" or Shady, or whatever it is, and wanted to get his CD. I had read a week or so ago about what a jerk the guy is - how he's had assault charges against him and so on. I never realized what his lyrics were like (it's hard to tell anyway). I talked to Sarah and asked her if she knew what a jerk the guy was. She said she didn't know but that she liked his music. I don't think she has heard this one. I don't like censorship, but for cryin' out loud - this is nuts! Is there a remote possibility the guy is talking this way to draw people's attention to this kind of hate? that maybe he's saying this to show people how bad it is to hate? (the only song I can think about right now is Randy Newman's "Short people" which was a silly song meant to show people how ridiculous it is to hate people for their physical attributes or whatever... and that was interpreted by many as being genuinely anti-short people. Or does he really mean it? Has anyone heard him interviewed or read anything about him that would answer that? ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:33:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC - The Real Eminem - --- Murphycopy@aol.com wrote: > If anyone wants to read the words Eminem fans are > listening to, go to: > > http://my.athenet.net/~maxx204/GetLyrics/Lyrics/Eminem/marshallmatherslp.htm > > I did a search for his lyrics because the chorus to > "The Real Slim Shady" > ("Please stand up, please stand up") has been stuck > in my brain for weeks > now. Holy shit, batman! I had NO idea what the guy was saying. Apart from "I'm the real Shady..." and "You act like you've never seen a white person before", I couldn't make out any of the other lyrics. I'm happy to say, I don't think my kids do either. I take back my question about whether or not this guy was playing devil's advocate and pointing to what's wrong with society - there's too much other nasty stuff in there. I'm going to have a little talk with the kids when I get home about whether or not she understands what any of this means and what she thinks about this kind of language. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #349 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?