From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #330 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Wednesday, June 14 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 330 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Metheny/G + Aimee Mann [Catherine ] Midnight At The Oasis (NJC) [mann@chicagonet.net] Re: the other two [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: mermaid cafe [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Altman Pictures -- THE OTHER TWO ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Brian Blade & Joni in REQUEST magazine Review [mann@chicagonet.net] Re: More Metheny -- What the Hell Is Jazz? ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Lower Levels of Hell- NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] 'Now & Then' (NJC) ["Paul Castle" ] Re: 'Now & Then' (NJC) [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Metheny/G + Aimee Mann njc [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: the other two (again) ["P. Henry" ] Esalen in '68 ["P. Henry" ] Metheny/G & Aimee Mann ["Peg Eves" ] Re: Lower Levels of Hell [Heather ] Fred Simon ["John Stilwell" ] Re: Pat Metheny NJC [Catherine McKay ] Joni in Maclean's [Catherine McKay ] Pat Metheny NJC [Emily Kirk Gray ] RE: Metheny NJC ["Peg Eves" ] Re: Brian Blade Daniel Lanois ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: Metheny/G & Aimee Mann [Catherine ] Re: Brian Blade Daniel Lanois [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Pat Metheny NJC ["Peg Eves" ] RE: Lower Levels of Hell/Nyro ["Peg Eves" ] William Shatner Sings Joni NJC ["Ken (slarty)" ] Esalen in '68 [Steve Dulson ] Lower Levels of Hell (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Sheryl Crow FYI SJC [Howard Motyl ] RE: Lower Levels of Hell ["Wally Kairuz" ] laura!!!!! njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Lower Levels of Hell ["cassy" ] Re: William Shatner Sings Joni NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Only One video w/ Joni [Bounced Message ] Joni Headlines in CONSCIOUS CHOICE journal [Bounced Message ] Joni and Steve [Bounced Message ] Re: Only One video w/ Joni [Don Rowe ] RE: Metheny/G & Aimee Mann ["Peg Eves" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:40:52 -0700 From: Catherine Subject: Re: Metheny/G + Aimee Mann Kakki wrote > For the record, I don't mind at all when Joni skewers the music biz > generally but when she names names, I also cringe. She and Metheny should > be above that kind of thing. > In yet another moment of list convergence, as I was listening to the Aimee Mann Fresh Air interview this afternoon on NPR--(thanks Brian Gross for the heads up; know I would have missed it otherwise)-- kept thinking of the Metheny/G thread, and also of our beloved Joan's tendency, as Kakki notes, to take a few shots at the biz and some individuals in it. Even if those shot are well deserved, and even if, as Catherine in Toronto rightly pointed out, the interviewer is digging for dirt and setting them up to say something cutting, I'm with Kakki, the vitriol is sometimes hard to take. Anyway, my main point is that I was tremendously impressed with Ms. Mann. The interviewer Terry Gross, who is three or four cuts above the average host, gently opened the door on several occasions for Aimee to dump on the music biz or specific people, and Mann never took the bait, such as it was. IMHO, Aimee Mann has earned the right to be as angry and bitter about the music biz as anyone--Joni included. I'm not trying to rap on Joni--I think she's reacting like most normal humans would, given her experiences, but I was downright proud of how careful Aimee Mann was not to go down that path, and how careful she was about protecting her own and her loved ones' privacy. Yet another reason why my cd player is currently only accepting discs by Aimee (and Joni and Bjork) (Yes, having one of those musical phases . . .) Here's to the high road! Catherine T. exiled in AZ np: Sugarcubes--Birthday ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:02:15 -0500 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Midnight At The Oasis (NJC) Free sample for your camel (or horse) ha! http://www.turval.com/turval_sample.html Herbal Supplement samples for cats and dogs http://www.animalessentials.com/samples.html Can't forget the JMDL pets! Laura ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:20:15 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: the other two I think the guy might be John Phillips. If he was wearing a silly hat and kaftan I'd be certain. I wonder what they're singing. The girl is not Mimi. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:21:02 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: mermaid cafe My first vinyl copy had the line as "beneath the mantle of the moon". Luckily for Greek tourism that line didn't stick. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:30:10 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Altman Pictures -- THE OTHER TWO Laura wrote: >Good Argument Hell..........I don't think I've >ever seen Carole King with a guitar! Altho, >she does play guitar on some of her albums I actually didn't make my argument very well, but I was rambling, and I thought I'd said quite enough! What I should have said is that I don't think she was playing the guitar that early in her career. I know she does now - although I've heard her call her style "Neanderthal"! I have got a video of one of her concerts, interspersed with interviews, etc. and she plays guitar on Smackwater Jack, and a few others, but she just strums it - no picking or more intricate playing. Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:49:11 -0500 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Brian Blade & Joni in REQUEST magazine Review Found this review in REQUEST magazine ........it's a FREE monthly magazine found at Sam Goody music store. Great 5x7 picture of Brian Blade holding his drumsticks inside the June 2000 issue (picture of the group 'NSync on the cover) Joni's mentioned in each paragraph. Brian Blade Fellowship Perceptual (Blue Note) To get the gig as Joni Mitchell's drummer, you'd have to display unusual versatility and a courage to break convention using a soft touch but a strong vision. That was no problem for Brian Blade. Unlike many who follow closely in bebop's large footprints, Brian Blade (who's also played with Joshua Redman's band) and his group make luminescent soft-bop music. While the late hard-bop drum titan Art Blakey stoked bonfires of rhythm that crackled and roared, Blade's beats are kindling for compositions that burn with a muted glow like votive flames. The Fellowship's self-titled 1998 debut emitted the atmospheric haze common to Daniel Lanois productions. this time Lanois, who was Blade's connection to Mitchell, is on board as a second guitarist to new member (and rising star) Kurt Rosenwinkel, and as second pedal-steel guitarist to Dave Easley. Their background harmonies hover like apparitions, and join with saxophonists Myron Walden and Melvin Butler for dreamlike passages that gradually rustle into crescendos of surprising passion. Tunes such as 'Evinrude-Fifty (Trembling)', about Blade's boyhood boat rides with his father in Louisiana, and the three-part suite "Variations of a Bloodline" are a progression of resonant musical details that unfold with the narrative arc of masterful short stories. Walden's bass clarinet turns the 66-second "The Sunday Boys" into something akin to a Gregorian chant, and Mitchell guests with her tremulous vocal on "Steadfast." Inevitably, the focus returns to Blade, who lightly prances over his snare drum and ride cymbal like a more pacifistic incarnation of Elvin Jones. -Britt Robson Their website is at http://www.requestmagazine.com I couldn't find the June Reviews online. Laura ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:10:44 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: More Metheny -- What the Hell Is Jazz? Fred wrote: >It's simply not a matter, in this case, of Gorelick's creativity seeming bad >to some people, but of his having no creativity at all, and, in fact, >stealing someone else's, and not just anyone else, but perhaps that of the >single greatest musician in all of jazz, certainly one of the top few. Of >course Gorelick has the right to make his own lousy music, but he has >absolutely no right to do this, and that is what is drawing Metheny's public >ire. Thought I'd jump on the band-wagon too. I agree that Kenny G is awful - I've never liked his music - and it's advertised here in the same timeslots as incontinence pants, Viagra, and arthritis cream, which indicates the kind of market they're aiming for. OK, I might be exaggerating a little, but I don't think he's ever going to appeal to the "kids". But while I personally can't stand his music, and what he's done to the Louis Armstrong track (I haven't heard/seen it, but it sounds like blasphemy), I have to defend his right to play "jazz" if that's what he wants to call it. It might also be timely to repost what Joni said in Musician Magazine when Rickee Lee Jones accused her of selling herself as a jazz artist, when she "wasn't" in Rickee Lee's opinion (originally posted to the list by John Noble): Joni to Rickie When I was a kid there was a time when Geraldine Campbell chased me with a wood hatchet whenever I passed her house. "This is my sidewalk-this is my sidewalk!" she would chant brandishing the hatchet and glowering and pouting ferociously. Rickie Lee-jazz, too, is a public sidewalk-no matter how near you live to it, it belongs to the city and anyone it pleases-it was there before you were born and it will be there long after you move away. "It's a free world-Geraldine!"-I used to say-tipping my beret. Joni Mitchell Los Angeles, CA Hope this doesn't annoy anyone, but despite how badly anyone (including myself) thinks Kenny G's jazz is, he's still allowed to play it, which is what Fred was saying anyway, and I'm rambling again, sorry. Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:19:55 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Lower Levels of Hell Rev Vince wrote: >then certainly at the front table, on the dais, of heaven, will be among >others, Janis Joplin, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, John Lennon, Aretha >Franklin, Otis Redding, Mozart, Verdi, Glenn Miller, Louis Armstrong, >Ethel Waters, Puccini, and Bach, and the Aleutian Island throat singers. At first I thought this post was a dig at me - I must have said something REALLY awful to evoke this kind of response. Then I realised it wasn't (note to self: not EVERYthing is about you)! I would add Shona Laing, Stephen Stills and Bonnie Raitt to the list above, and possibly Jim Morrison, although he's probably in that other place, having his nether-regions poked by little demons with sharp sticks (and probably enjoying it). >The lowest level of hell is reserved for Kenny G, Zamphere on the pan >flute, Kenny Rogers, Lionel Ritchie, Richard Harris (McArthurs Park will >do that to a guy) and Bobby McFarrin (now that he has sold the rights to >Don't Worry, Be Happy to the singing plastic bass fish wall mount that >is inflicting bars and homes everywhere).. Add The Spice Girls, Michael Bolton and New Kids On The Block (who started this whole "5 boys in one room - hey, we're a rock group!" thing). And while we're at it, let's throw in the guys who invented toupee's, zip-up/velcro shoes and platform sneakers. Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:21:33 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Lower Levels of Hell- NJC Jimmy wrote (in response to Rev Vince): ><< Penultimate level of hell is for ABBA and all other Swedish pop groups > passing pabulum on to preteens. > >> > >Well I guess I enjoy hell quite a bit Vince :~) This is not helping my ego problem at all! Not to mention the rumours that will start flying! Hell _____________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman hell@ihug.co.nz Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:32:05 -0400 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: 'Now & Then' (NJC) Surfing through Robert Altman's site (the photographer *not* the film director, btw), I found a section entitled 'Now and Then' at http://www2.cea.edu/robert/My.Week.5.Mar.7.html My favourite: Then: Ommmmmm Now: Ummmmmm PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:08:38 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: 'Now & Then' (NJC) My fave Then: acid Now: antacid - ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Castle To: jmdl Sent: 14 June 2000 16:32 Subject: 'Now & Then' (NJC) > Surfing through Robert Altman's site > (the photographer *not* the film director, btw), > I found a section entitled 'Now and Then' > at http://www2.cea.edu/robert/My.Week.5.Mar.7.html > > My favourite: > > Then: Ommmmmm > > Now: Ummmmmm > > > PaulC > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:09:17 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Metheny/G + Aimee Mann njc - ----- Original Message ----- From: Catherine > Anyway, my main point is that I was tremendously impressed with Ms. > Mann. The interviewer Terry Gross, who is three or four cuts above the > average host, gently opened the door on several occasions for Aimee to > dump on the music biz or specific people, and Mann never took the bait, She must have mellowed because a few years ago she gave this memorable quote on a tv rpogram about the music business. "It's a major surprise to me that no artist has walked up, you know, taken the elevator to the 32nd floor of the CBS building and sprayed the place with machine gun fire." Philip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:54:48 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: the other two (again) (resending this as it did not post completely in the digest) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:57:19 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: the other two the woman (definitely) is Mimi Farina, Joan Baez' sister... the guy is most definately NOT John Kay, (way too tall) but may possibly be Mimi's husband Richard who wrote a great song called "Pack Up Your Sorrows" and authored the book "Been Down So Long, It Looks Like Up To Me". pat ps - btw, those pics are all 'thumbnail' style... if you clik on them you get the big one... here's the one he took of Mimi: http://www2.cea.edu/robert/MimiFarinia.JPEG >>Anyone know who the other two are? http://www2.cea.edu/robert/Page13.Mixed.Bag.htmlOkay Paul, I'm guessing..........John Kay from Steppenwolf (sure looks like him!! LOL) and that looks like the profile of Ms. Carole King....the original BORN TO BE WILD group! Anyone else??? Anyone? Anyone? Laura>> Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:31:18 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Esalen in '68 steve shared: >>Paul C. wrote: PS. And, to up the JC a bit, another Altman pic of Joni at Esalen in '68 with Judy and Joan. http://www2.cea.edu/robert/Page13.Mixed.Bag.html Anyone know who the other two are?>> >I will make a guess that the guy is Jeffrey Shurtleaf (sp?), who was Joan's regular back-up guitarist then. The other woman???> steve, I think you're right about this one... makes a heck of a lot more sense than my guess that it's Richard Farina, seeing as it looks nothing like him and also because I believe that by the time this pic was shot, Mimi was a widow. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:14:48 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: Metheny/G & Aimee Mann . . .. > > Peg queries: I so much do not want to insult anyone. I can only say what I feel in earnest and hope my opinion is recieved with forbearance and tolerance. Some folks said: The vitriol is sometimes hard to take. She and Metheny > should > > be above that kind of thing Peg replies: But wait a second. Above what kind of thing exactly? Bare with me kiddos. If they can take the shit can't we take the "vitriol". How is it "hard to take"? It's not like these artists are publishing newsletters trashing people and companies. Should they be above expressing their whole emotional truth when ASKED! We all know the enormous frustration and pain Joni has endured. I find her virulence, frankness, names and all(people SHOULD BE held accountable and taken to task and how can they be if no names are told?), perfectly appropriate and in proportion to her experience . Hell, these artists have been insulted, offended! on various fronts. If we ask them shouldn't we expect them to tell us? I do not see this as a flaw in the process. I find it utterly natural. The truth ain't always gracious , sophisticated, and professional sounding! . No one is ever "above" the facts of their feelings nor above expressing them completely - able or desiring to to supress negativity. Wouldn't being above that be below the truth? I know we all agree that ART is a place where we are FREE to be pretty or UGLY. Tact & strategic speeches are the stuff of the corporate, secondary world. In the NATURAL, primary world we tell the whole truth. Why be above that? So we appear to "be cool"? Keep everything tidy? Forthright, direct statement often offends people who allow a space in their psyche for that response and it takes guts to express yourself honestly when you know that. When the opinions, feelings in question are basic and heartfelt - not bullshit- then I am proud of people who don't sugarcoat their expression for the sake of social comfort levels. There is a difference between trashing people arbitrarily and responding honestly to experience. Someone else said: > , but I was downright proud of how careful Aimee > Mann was not to go down that path, > > Peg Replies: What path? (I heards the interview)And don't you wonder how restrained she would have been had she been in the business as long as Joni? (I think she is an amazing songwriter.) > Am I off the wall with this? Or what? Peg> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:47:19 -0400 From: Heather Subject: Re: Lower Levels of Hell YES! Dear Laura .... I was also very saddened by her passing. Who can forget all those soulful songs. Laura and Joni were my constant stars through my youth. ... what the Devil doesn't know is that the Devil can't stay, doesn't know he's seen his day (Luckie) Heather - ('Emily you ornament the earth for me' - one of Laura's most moving lines for me) At 01:05 AM 6/14/00 -0400, Gary Zack wrote: >Let's hear it for Laura Nyro!! My black angel, second in my book only >to Joni! I was devastated when she passed away. She was wonderful! >Thanks for mentioning such an underrated wonderful talent! > >Gary (protea man) > >...meet me Captain St. Lucifer, darling I'll be there, dont you know? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:00:46 GMT From: "John Stilwell" Subject: Fred Simon Fred, I'd just like to state publicly that I share your opinions on bootlegging and Metheny's comments. Louis Armstrong is very sacred ground!!!! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:03:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Pat Metheny NJC - --- Victor Johnson wrote: > I think Kenny G is getting far > too much attention over > this. Music that is truly beautiful and unique will > defend itself. Perhaps > years and years from now, people will still be > listening to Louis Armstrong > and have no idea who Kenny G is or was. So, there IS no such thing as bad publicity. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:25:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Joni in Maclean's Arrived home yesterday to find the June 19 edition of Maclean's ("Canada's weekly newsmagazine")... and voila - a story on Joni's art show in Saskatoon! Here is the URL: http://www.macleans.ca/pub-doc/2000/06/19/Art/35908.shtml Here's an interesting paragraph. Who is this mysterious New Oreanian, I wonder... ;) "Now, the Saskatoon exhibition promises to give new exposure to another side of Mitchell's talent. And her scheduled homecoming is already causing a stir. Hebert is bracing for an opening-night crowd of up to 8,000, about 10 times the normal turnout. Even before formally publicizing the event, he had received e-mails and letters from Mitchell fans as far away as Britain and Australia. Among them was a man from New Orleans who wrote that "he didn't know where or what Saskatoon was, but he was coming." " It's gotta be Paz. I hope you've figured out where S'toon is by now! There are links to the Mendel gallery and to jonimitchell.com at the bottom. As with the Globe and Mail article, while there are colour pictures in hard copy, these aren't on the website. Is it worth my copying the article and posting it to the list? ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:30:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: Pat Metheny NJC hi everyone! great thread. can i just jump into the fray here? DESPITE my reverence for metheny and my total ignorance of kenny g, one thing that bothers me here is the assumption (?) that kenny g "cannot" use a pre-existing piece of art as part of his "new" piece of art. (fine, "should not" is a whole other matter.) that seems uncharitable to me -- even frustrating. one of the greatest and most interesting aspects of art (not just music) is its ability to use, incorporate, borrow, or allude to what is there before. i could get into a whole grad-school thing about the traditions and methods of pastiche or collage or even (god help me) "the anxiety of influence" but will not. but what about: joni's "river" using snippets of "jingle bells" rap songs utilizing sampling t.s. eliot's "the wasteland" marcel duchamp's "ready-mades" aren't these ON SOME LEVEL part of the tradition within which kenny g is working? i guess i raise this to play devil's advocate because much of what i read here i instinctively agree with: i can't imagine i'd have anything good to say about kenny g using louis armstrong -- and would be horrified about a teeny bop version of "hejira" or some such. STILL, there is room enough in the musical universe for both kenny g and pat metheny -- for artists bent on experimenting with sounds never heard and for artists combining, rearranging, and sifting through prior materials. if joni decided to work in this motif (um, as in "mingus" or even "both sides now"), wouldn't we want to see it? and i am glad, glad, glad every day that there is music out there that i believe sucks as well as music i worship. because i eat both hot dogs and caviar sometimes (not together!). OK, getting ready to duck.... - -- emily ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:50:33 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Metheny NJC >> > he did not win me over with > his personality or his way with words. But my main point was perhaps I was > disappointed in his attitude because his music is so elevating. > > Kate Bennett > Singer/Songwriter > www.katebennett.com > Hi Kate, I see Pat's gross expression on the subject in perfect proportion to the gross acts of Kenny G. Every stick has two ends. Guess this is the other end of an artist's passion. They're not Buddist monks, you know? Indulge me for a second if you don't mind. When we expect a certain attitude, personality, language from an artist isn't it tantamount to asking them to supress their truths ? And didn't we ask how they felt on this or that? Maybe they're artists all the time. Got to be extreme and passionate even if it's not a song! Even if it's ugly and people won't like it. That doesn't dissapoint me. I admire it! And part of the price they pay for being thorough in their expressions is that we are dissappointed? The balance is off there, isn't it? It doesn't follow right for me, Kate. Maybe I don't understand what you mean. You should know - you're an artist and a performer. Do you want to be judged by your art or your personality & word usage. It's not like Pat is trying to sell or showcase his personage. It's beside the point - his personality, his negative expressions. His art's not enough, he has to be a certain kind of person, behaving in a certain way? I don't think you believe that or intended this and I'm not putting words in your mouth. However, in fact, at their essence, your comments innocent&honest as they are imply just that. I am not a nit-picker, not looking for faux pas to pounce on. I mention this only because I have always believed it an important issue , a very common one and unfair to the artists who are out on the limb subject to our reactions. Since Joni has often spoken candidly and not always sweetly she now must tolerate the backlash as part of her legacy. I will not be counted as one who has any manner of issue, momentarily or otherwise, with this kind of candor from an artist. And this doesn't mean I defend juvenile abusive & degrading attitudes of some performers of another ilk! Say Ted Nugent.What has HE given us that we should endure his grossness? Now there's an ATTITUDE. There's an unwinning way with words ! There's a disappointing human being. And what beauty has he given us. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:15:33 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Brian Blade Daniel Lanois What is Joni's connection to Daniel Lanois? Reuben >The Fellowship's self-titled 1998 debut emitted the atmospheric haze >common to Daniel Lanois productions. this time Lanois, who was Blade's >connection to Mitchell, is on board as a second guitarist to new member >(and rising star) Kurt Rosenwinkel, and as second pedal-steel guitarist >to Dave Easley. Their background harmonies hover like apparitions, and >join with saxophonists Myron Walden and Melvin Butler for dreamlike >passages that gradually rustle into crescendos of surprising passion. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:47:42 -0700 From: Catherine Subject: Re: Metheny/G & Aimee Mann Peg Eves wrote: > Peg replies: > But wait a second. Above what kind of thing exactly? Bare with me kiddos. > If they can take the shit can't we take the "vitriol". How is it "hard to > take"? It's not like these artists are publishing newsletters trashing > people and companies. Should they be above expressing their whole emotional > truth when ASKED! We all know the enormous frustration and pain Joni has > endured. I find her virulence, frankness, names and all(people SHOULD BE > held accountable and taken to task and how can they be if no names are > told?), perfectly appropriate and in proportion to her experience . Hell, > these artists have been insulted, offended! on various fronts. If we ask > them shouldn't we expect them to tell us? IMO, not necessarily. I remember reading an article (sometime in 98, I think--its probably in the archives on the jmdl site) in which Joni herself admits that she has gotten a rep for taking potshots at other artists, and that interviewers/journalists try to set up memorable, negative quotes from her, and she quite explicitly tells the journalist that she'd rather talk about who she likes rather than who she doesn't because she didn't want to perpetuate that reputation. And I do want to emphasize again that I'm not knocking Joni for having those feelings--I have no way of beginning to comprehend the struggles she has and the garbage she's had to endure. As I mentioned in my original post, I think she is responding to her sitaution like any sensitive human being would. I'm just delirously grateful that she continues to paint and perform and write music in spite of it all. I'm not rying to judge her--I'd probably mouth off in worse ways if it were me. But I think she has a body of work that condemns the current radio mediocrity far louder than any quote she might give a journalist, and that's where my feeling that she ought to be "above" taking potshots comes from. Just my personal reaction. > I do not see this as a flaw in the > process. I find it utterly natural. The truth ain't always gracious , > sophisticated, and professional sounding! . > No one is ever "above" the facts of their feelings nor above expressing > them completely - able or desiring to to supress negativity. Wouldn't being > above that be below the truth? I know we all agree that ART is a place > where we are FREE to be pretty or UGLY. Tact & strategic speeches are the > stuff of the corporate, secondary world. In the NATURAL, primary world we > tell the whole truth. Why be above that? So we appear to "be cool"? Keep > everything tidy? Forthright, direct statement often offends people who > allow a space in their psyche for that response and it takes guts to express > yourself honestly when you know that. When the opinions, feelings in > question are basic and heartfelt - not bullshit- then I am proud of people > who don't sugarcoat their expression for the sake of social comfort levels. > There is a difference between trashing people arbitrarily and responding > honestly to experience. I agree with that to an extent--I have no problem with what she has "said" in her art, in her songs, when she raps on the the music business, from FTR up through TTT, even when she appears to take aim at individuals (as in "Not to Blame" or "Lead Balloon"). More power to her! Its just that outside of the realm where she has control over her expression -in the press, specifically- when some journalist invites her to make disparaging remarks about Jewel or Alanis Morrisette or Kurt Cobain, and she takes the bait, and then it ends up in print as a one line (maybe out of context) zinger, I don't think that serves her very well. And its happened often enough that even she appears to realize this. > Someone else said: > > , but I was downright proud of how careful Aimee > > Mann was not to go down that path, > > > > Peg Replies: > > What path? (I heards the interview)And don't you wonder how restrained she > would have been had she been in the business as long as Joni? (I think she > is an amazing songwriter.) Well, my thinking on this is that by the time Joni was Aimee Mann's age (early 40s?), she had a string of pop hits, massive radio play, huge record sales, etc., and then *chose* to purse a musical path away from the pop mainstream which cost her in terms of exposure and sales. She hadn't been seriously screwed over by one record label after another and forced to resort to buying back her own albums and peddling them herself. I certainly appreciate that Joni has had tremendous struggles which are probably equally difficult in their own way, and I'm not trying to say that one is more deserving of sympathy than the other, just that Aimee Mann has very quickly earned the right to sit at the table of complaint-with anybody. So when I was listening to the Aimee Mann interview, it occurred to me that here was a woman who has every right to be bitter and let loose on the industry and and most likely specific people as well, but she didn't (Though to be fair, she *has* in her art, too. "I'm With Stupid" is supposed to be about a certain record exec). I just thought that given her experience, she was very restrained and upbeat--it was heartening to me to hear that she seems to be in a pretty good place in spite of having been run through the music mill a few times. Just my .02 Catherine T. in az ------------------------------ Date: Wed Jun 14 10:51:26 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Brian Blade Daniel Lanois <> That caught my eye too, Reuben...don't know that she has one, but I DO wish she'd let him man the boards for her next record of new material...he is simply magic in terms of the ethereal sound he can create. Bob NP: Kim Prevost & Bill Solley, "Fever" (speaking of magic sounds...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:32:19 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Pat Metheny NJC Emily, Yeh, I hear ya'. I agree. Also, Kenny can do what he wants and Pat can say what he wants about it. Yes? Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Emily > Kirk Gray > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:30 AM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Pat Metheny NJC > > > > hi everyone! great thread. > > can i just jump into the fray here? DESPITE my reverence for > metheny and my total ignorance of kenny g, one thing that bothers > me here is the assumption (?) that kenny g "cannot" use a > pre-existing piece of art as part of his "new" piece of art. > (fine, "should not" is a whole other matter.) that seems > uncharitable to me -- even frustrating. one of the greatest > and most interesting aspects of art (not just music) is its > ability to use, incorporate, borrow, or allude to what is > there before. i could get into a whole grad-school thing > about the traditions and methods of pastiche or collage or > even (god help me) "the anxiety of influence" but will not. > > but what about: > > joni's "river" using snippets of "jingle bells" > > rap songs utilizing sampling > > t.s. eliot's "the wasteland" > > marcel duchamp's "ready-mades" > > aren't these ON SOME LEVEL part of the tradition within which > kenny g is working? i guess i raise this to play devil's advocate > because much of what i read here i instinctively agree with: > i can't imagine i'd have anything good to say about kenny g > using louis armstrong -- and would be horrified about a teeny bop > version of "hejira" or some such. STILL, there is room enough > in the musical universe for both kenny g and pat metheny -- for > artists bent on experimenting with sounds never heard and > for artists combining, rearranging, and sifting through prior > materials. if joni decided to work in this motif (um, as in > "mingus" or even "both sides now"), wouldn't we want to see it? > and i am glad, glad, glad every day that there is > music out there that i believe sucks as well as music i worship. > because i eat both hot dogs and caviar sometimes (not together!). > > OK, getting ready to duck.... > > -- emily > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:42:05 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Lower Levels of Hell/Nyro YES! Dear Laura .... I was also very saddened by her passing. Who can > forget all those soulful songs. > Oh yeh!! Laura Nyro. Sublime. Outstanding. What an angel. I had the pleasure and honor of producing a show of hers here in Vermont just before she passed on. Speaking of personalities - she was so smooth; she seemed to float. Lot's of St.Pauli Girl for the band if I remember right. Damn! What music! Peg > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:01:50 -0400 From: "Ken (slarty)" Subject: William Shatner Sings Joni NJC A while back Catherine asked about William Shatner singing a Joni tune. Well it took me a while but I finally located it. If you really feel masochistic you can hear it via myplay.com if you have an mp3 player installed. Don't say I didn't warn you. http://www.myplay.com/mp/playlist/now_playing.jsp?u=607455&plid=174841&start=1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:17:59 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Esalen in '68 Susan wrote: > I am inclined to believe that it >may have been Mimi (Baez's sister) and her Sir Gallahad. I know others >disagree but it makes sense to me. I disagree because I've seen Mimi perform 8 times, seen her hosting the Bread and Roses festival, have (I think) everything she's recorded, and it's NOT MIMI. :) Joan's song "Sweet Sir Galahad" was about Mimi's relationship with Myron Melvin, a San Francisco DJ to whom she was briefly married. The song celebrates Mimi's emergence from her mourning of Richard. In the movie "Festival at Big Sur" Joan sings the song to scenes of Mimi and Myron frolicking in the grass. And no, that ain't Myron in the photo either. And Pat Henry wrote: >the woman (definitely) is Mimi Farina See above, Pat. Sorry to sound vehement about this, but the Farinas are people who have loomed large in my life. Best wishes to all, ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:34:47 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Lower Levels of Hell (NJC) Bishop Lavieri condemns >Richard Harris (McArthurs Park will do that to a guy) to a lower level of hell, but charitably adds: >I await the corrections on this. Reluctant as I am to disagree with the worthy Bishop, let me just say that, for a teeneager falling in and out of love in LA in 1968, "A Tramp Shining" and S & G's "Bookends" *were* the soundtracks of my life. I'll always treasure Harris for that. Awaiting the thunderbolt... :) ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:08:48 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Sheryl Crow FYI SJC I've been doing some Sheryl research for a possible show. In an interview, I found this quote about her musical roots and influences: >Her mother a piano teacher and her father, a lawyer, playing trumpet, Sheryl grew up surrounded by music - "at first Top 40 and Fleetwood Mac, >then the Stones, Van Morrison and Bessie Smith, and finally songwriters like Bob Dylan and Joni Mitchell," she says. Howard M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:16:42 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Lower Levels of Hell helen, why is everybody suddenly talking about your lower levels?????????? am i next? wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:20:55 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: laura!!!!! njc hear hear hear hear gary!!!!!! and you chose my favorite laura song, cp. captain lucifer! you're a wiz and a scholar... wallyk > Let's hear it for Laura Nyro!! My black angel, second in my book only > to Joni! I was devastated when she passed away. She was wonderful! > Thanks for mentioning such an underrated wonderful talent! > > Gary (protea man) > > ...meet me Captain St. Lucifer, darling I'll be there, dont you know? > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:08:29 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: Lower Levels of Hell >>I await the corrections on this.<< >(the Rev) Vince Thanks Vince this was so imaginative and interesting to read. The concept reminded me of a job I once had when I was trying to fight out of an abusive marriage. I hadn't worked in over 12 yrs and needed "just a job" to get me on the road to self-support. I took a job with a printing company on the graveyard shift stuffing circulars for $6.00 an hour; on my feet all night long, timed breaks with rude bells to remind me not to be a minute late back to my work station, side by side with all types of women, most of them with teased-up hair, too-red lipstick and tight jeans, the ever present "young country" blasting out of beat-up, vibrating speakers at full-tilt. Someone asked me one day how the job was going and I told them it was "Music Hell." Can we reserve a space on the lowest level of hell for the supervisor who assured me we each got a turn choosing the music for a night then changed the channel the minute the person who dared to choose other than "young country" went to the ladies room? Perhaps we could chain her up with headphones on and force her to listen to "Electric Africa" by Manu Dibango until she learned to appreciate music with a different sound? Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Wed Jun 14 12:33:29 2000 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: William Shatner Sings Joni NJC <> Wow! Great Detective work Ken! Can somebody download this to a CD so I can throw it on a "C&C" Volume? Sadly (or happily depending on your POV), Volume 4 "The Power of Cheese" is closed out... Bob NP: Blues Traveler, "Freedom" PS: I love how a Shatner cover of Joni is marked NJC! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:34:43 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Only One video w/ Joni From: "Nikki Johnson" Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:26:34 -0400 Hey My friend sent this link to me and I dunno if y'all have seen this before but I figured I'd share she said well there's Don Henley w/ James Taylor and I am pretty sure Joni Mitchell! LOL I said yup sure looks and sounds like her to me:-) Scroll down toward the bottom and you'll see "James Taylor Only One Video"...click on that. http://eaglesfans.simplenet.com/fastlane/video/video.htm Nikki "Ever since I was a baby girl the one thing I wanted most in this world was to keep my love alive" ~ Heart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:36:16 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Joni Headlines in CONSCIOUS CHOICE journal From: mann@chicagonet.net Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:13:10 -0500 Found this at Borders Book Store............can also be found at Barnes & Noble and Health Food Stores. It's a free (newspaper-type) publication. The headline for this article caught my eye. CONSCIOUS CHOICE The Journal of Ecology & Natural Living May 2000 Vol. 13 No. 5 Page 24 P E S T I C I D E S Put Away That DDT, Now..... Joni Mitchell may or may not see her 1970 plea realized depending on the outcome of talks aimed at establishing a global agreement on the elimination of twelve deadly chemicals. .................... and it goes on into a two page article. This is their website http://www.consciouschoice.com/ but I could not find this article on it. Laura ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:33:58 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: burning CDs Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:59:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Stoy Reuben wrote: "Why do people get so bent out of shape about burning CD's? It has been the norm for years to pirate cassette recordings. Tell me that you have never owned a pirated tape copy of an album that you didn't buy. (Please accept my apologies if you really never have :) ) I personally am a marketer's dream, and can't stand to have the music without the package, but I don't think that its morally reprehensible to copy music. What is the law? I'm curious." I'm just getting back from vacation so this post may have been responded to already, but... Copying music instead of buying it IS morally reprehensible. Copying a tape (or burning a CD) for your own use-- when you already own the music in another form-- is fair use, and that is fine. If you own a CD, for example, and you only have a tape player in your car, you are free to tape your copy for listening in the car. However, the artist and the record companies receive nothing when you copy an album for which you have not paid. You are violating copyright law and are essentially stealing. Burning CDs is much worse, because unlike tapes-- which degenerate with each generation of copies-- burned CDs are exact digital duplicates of the original. The digital factor is one reason why the whole napster/gnutella thing is so dangerous. I find it repulsive and nauseating, these anarchist people who feel that they are entitled and think they have a RIGHT to free music. It's not free. It shouldn't be free (UNLESS the artist wants it to be--that's his or her prerogative). This is not meant to come down all on you, Reuben. I just have really strong opinions on the matter. Erin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:35:28 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Joni and Steve Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 01:54:12 -0700 From: Robert Holliston Dear fellow listers, For a long time, I've been interested in the differences and similarities between Joni Mitchell and Stephen Sondheim. They've both had hits made popular (and, imho, misunderstood) by Judy Collins. They're both very prickly when it comes to "the biz" and neither suffers fools - or imitators - gladly. They're both innovative mavericks in popular, business-driven areas of art. Consider: Stephen Sondheim quote: "I thought I was going into 'the theatre' - I was going into show business, and I was a fool to think otherwise" Joni Mitchell quote: "I don't believe in art that only 13 people in the world can understand" Stephen Sondheim is the last enfant terrible of the Broadway musical. Joni Mitchell influences only other cutting-edge artists: the mainstream has always ignored and/or undervalued her work. Both Steve and Joni are adept at intricate rhyming, and are experts at internal rhymes. Musically, both Steve and Joni favor non-harmonic notes, especially suspended 2nds, 4ths, and 9ths. They also tend to conceptualize their music horizontally rather than vertically. Steve created Follies. Joni created The Hissing of Summer Lawns. We're talking masterpieces here. Stephen Sondheim and Joni Mitchell probably don't even listen to each others' work. But they should: you couldn't find two lyricist/composers more gifted, or two people more willing to say uncharitable things about their contemporaries. Sleep easily, Steve and Joni! Posterity will judge you, and your imaginary competitors will be lost in the dust. Joni has David Lahm, Steve has Bernadette Peters. Either way, we're all richer for it! Goodnight, y'all, and thank you to Joni and Steve for teaching me everything...... Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:13:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Only One video w/ Joni Wow! What a delight ... three of the top gods/goddesses in my pantheon singing one of my favorite songs ... wow! Don't miss this one folks -- what a treat! Don Rowe ===== "I do not object to others hiding from history. What I object to are others hiding history from ME." - -- Shelby Foote __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:58:29 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Metheny/G & Aimee Mann Hey Catherine< Points well taken. I hear ya! Thanks for your thoughts. Peg: It's not like these artists are publishing newsletters trashing > > people and companies. > > I find her virulence, frankness, names and all(people > SHOULD BE > > held accountable and taken to task and how can they be if no names are > > told?), perfectly appropriate and in proportion to her > experience . fronts. If we ask > > them shouldn't we expect them to tell us? > Catherine: > IMO, not necessarily. I remember reading an article (sometime in 98, I > > Joni herself > admits that she has gotten a rep for taking potshots at other > artists, and that > interviewers/journalists try to set up memorable, negative quotes > from her, and > she quite explicitly tells the journalist that she'd rather talk > about who she > likes rather than who she doesn't because she didn't want to > perpetuate that > reputation. Peg replies: Of course. That's not creative energy, commenting on who you "don't like" but IN THE CONTEXT of a whole interview who cares if Kurt or Alanis take a hit from Joni Mitchell - that's part of being out there for them too. Theoretically,couldn't it be seen as inconsistant for all the negative commentary to dissolve as soon as an artist is out of the creative environment. I'm not saying everything an artist says is right or necessary - including Joni. I'm saying it's alright to say it. There are ALWAYS reprocussions "whether you travel the breadth of extremity or stick to some straighter line". I still say if we don't want their peaches we shouldn't shake their trees. And, Catherine I KNOW you were not knocking Joni. Your appreciation of her is obvious and a pleasure to witness. Good Thinking and Thankyou. Peg> > > ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #330 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?