From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #325 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Monday, June 12 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 325 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re:Some things best... [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: NJC, defining bootlegging, my $.02 worth [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: mermaid cafe [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Steely Dan, Joni and mu major chords [Howard Wright ] RE: Some things best... ["Peg Eves" ] RE: Steely Dan, Joni and mu major chords ["Peg Eves" ] Re: was don's dander, now a poem for paul...(NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni and Sinead O'Connor ["Reuben Bell" ] RE: flight of the silver beatles ["Peg Eves" ] Re: the first Farm Aid concert NOW AVAILABLE- *ADDENDUM* [Brian Gross ] Re: NJC, defining bootlegging, my $.02 worth [Catherine McKay ] Re: NJC, bootlegging, my $.02 worth [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: re:Some things best... [Catherine McKay ] Re: mermaid cafe ["Paul Castle" ] Saskatoon list [Bounced Message ] Pat Metheny ["Michael Paz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 02:58:42 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: re:Some things best... Michael Paz wrote: <> In as much as I love good lyrics, and Joni's in particular, I seldom listen to anyone's lyrics the first time through. The music is primary and that's what has to get to me first. I still have to put on Led Zeppelin when the mood strikes and crank it way up. I never cared what Robert Plant was singing, just how he sang it. Jimmy Page makes it into my pantheon of guitar gods -- those electrifying riffs and solos go very deep, to that primal place of pure, raw emotion. What gets to me more than Joni's lyrics is her actual singing and her guitar and piano playing. If she sang in Chinese, her music would still have an affect on me. Those Joni chords reach deep into me as does the pure expression of her vocal style. After I absorb the music, then I listen to her exquisite poetry, most of which speaks to me, some of which does not. For instance, Little Green is a sad and pretty song, but it was a total mystery in its meaning until years later when we learned about Kilauren. I love "Electricity", but what does it all really mean? Some of it makes sense, but what the hell is a proud headed Queen Lizzie? I've asked before, but our technical manual's are all busy on that one. It's still a beautiful song. On the other hand, you have Cohen and Dylan who are renowned for their lyrics. Though I have enjoyed Bobby's more musical efforts (when he has a good band, some back up singers, some arrangements) , I can't get addicted to his music because he really can't sing, his harmonica playing is atrocious, and his guitar style is rudimentary with only an occasionally interesting flourish rooted in a certain primitive charm. I have tried to listen to the musicless dirges of Leonard Cohen and will not punish myself again -- I don't care how wonderful his lyrics are, he's not a good singer or composer. He needs more than wings taped on his back to make him fly. I can't see what Joni, or anyone else for that matter, ever saw in him. If the music is unmusical, then I won't listen for the words. Wishing all my gay brothers and sisters a Happy Pride Day from Los Angeles. - - Clark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:43:44 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: NJC, defining bootlegging, my $.02 worth Home taping is illegal. It says so on my copy of WTRF and on all my other records in slightly less direct words. I've yet to see a cd which says that it's ok to make a copy for personal use in the car. Of course it's a law that's' impossible to enforce because everyone does it. The same laws of copyright apply to software. That industry has a copy licensing system. So if I want to copy a program to my kid's pc, I'm obliged to buy a second licence. The music industry probably missed the boat when they failed to get a tax on blank tapes. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:44:37 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: mermaid cafe I was in Matala in the mid 80's. There was no Mermaid Cafe and there were no hippies anymore either, just mostly germans on holiday. The caves were fenced off and signs saying to keep out because they are burial sites. A man on the ferry told us that during the war the nazi's set up big guns in the Matala caves. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:54:12 +0100 From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: Steely Dan, Joni and mu major chords From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com: >So what songs of Joni's are mu'd (he asked, creating a new verb in the process)? Songs that use a mu-major tuning include Cherokee Louise, Crazy Cries of Love, Taming The Tiger, Sunny Sunday, Yvette in English, God must be a boogie man ... That doesn't mean that all the chords in those songs are mu-majors, though quite a few of the will be (e.g the first two chords in the intro of Cherokee Louise are mu majors). Howard W. wrote: > The basic mu-major chord is a standard major chord with an added 2nd, so > you end up with the root (1st), 2nd, maj 3rd and 5th. >Wally Kairuz wrote: > >is the first chord on paprika plains a mu chord then? Not quite, but the third one is! I hear these as the first three chords: (all chords spelled out in notes, low to high) GCDG DFB AFGC The first chord is like a Csus2, but with a G in the bass, so it's Csus2/G. It doesn't have the third in it, so it's not a mu, though it is a close relative. The third chord has the same triad on the top, shifted up, so you get an Fsus2 sound, but now the third of F (A) is in the bass, so you *do* have all the notes of a mu major (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th), i.e the third chord is a mu-major! Peg (peves@marlboro.edu) wrote: >I think the first chord at the start of the verse of Hejira is B mu-major. Is that true? I think the first chord in the Hejira verse is C6/9 (notes: CGEGAD), but again, this is closely related to the mu major. If you take out the 6th (A) from the chord, you end up with a mu-major because you have only the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th. Howard P.S It's funny, I've never heard Steely Dan talk about "mu minor chords", but there are the obvious equivalent of the mu major. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:08:01 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: thoughts on lyrics njc The exquisite beauty of music is that it is created in so many layers. Just like the first morning rays of sunlight shining into your room, impossible to catch them within the tips of your fingers, but you know they are there. You know they are there because you feel the warmth growing inside you. Perhaps it is a chord that touches you, a melody, a harmony..and then a super nova bursts inside your heart as lyrics gain clarity and begin to sink in, speaking to your experience. Words, yours, mine, theirs, touch you and give you endless relief, comfort, joy. Suddenly you recognize your self, suddenly you know you are not alone. As you try to make sense out of your life and experiences, lyrics so often give you a voice with which to express the glimmering light inside hearts, souls, life, love. And the greatest joy is the connection made to someone else who feels and hears the same thing. mags np: for the beauty of ruins zoebliss - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:13:50 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Some things best... Clark, Have you heard Cohen's The Future? I agree with ALL you said in this post except for the complete dismissal of Cohen's MUSIC. Later, Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > CarltonCT@aol.com > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 2:59 AM > To: joni@smoe.org; michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net > Subject: re:Some things best... > > > Michael Paz wrote: < frere? Sometimes > it's best to dig the music for how it sounds and not what it sez. > I relate to > certain parts > of certain songs (especially a few Joni songs that I can think > of) and don't > get the rest of it, but if it sounds good... ahhhh! I know I have > posted on > this in the past, but I LOVED Led Zep for sooo long and I could > never under > stand a fuckin' word that guy (Plant) sang.>> > > In as much as I love good lyrics, and Joni's in particular, I > seldom listen > to anyone's lyrics the first time through. The music is primary > and that's > what has to get to me first. I still have to put on Led Zeppelin > when the > mood strikes and crank it way up. I never cared what Robert Plant was > singing, just how he sang it. Jimmy Page makes it into my pantheon of > guitar gods -- those electrifying riffs and solos go very deep, to that > primal place of pure, raw emotion. > > What gets to me more than Joni's lyrics is her actual singing and > her guitar > and piano playing. If she sang in Chinese, her music would > still have an > affect on me. Those Joni chords reach deep into me as does the pure > expression of her vocal style. After I absorb the music, then I > listen to > her exquisite poetry, most of which speaks to me, some of which > does not. > For instance, Little Green is a sad and pretty song, but it was a total > mystery in its meaning until years later when we learned about > Kilauren. I > love "Electricity", but what does it all really mean? Some of it makes > sense, but what the hell is a proud headed Queen Lizzie? I've > asked before, > but our technical manual's are all busy on that one. It's still > a beautiful > song. > > On the other hand, you have Cohen and Dylan who are renowned for their > lyrics. Though I have enjoyed Bobby's more musical efforts > (when he has a > good band, some back up singers, some arrangements) , I can't get > addicted to > his music because he really can't sing, his harmonica playing is > atrocious, > and his guitar style is rudimentary with only an occasionally interesting > flourish rooted in a certain primitive charm. I have tried to > listen to the > musicless dirges of Leonard Cohen and will not punish myself > again -- I don't > care how wonderful his lyrics are, he's not a good singer or > composer. He > needs more than wings taped on his back to make him fly. I > can't see what > Joni, or anyone else for that matter, ever saw in him. If the music is > unmusical, then I won't listen for the words. > > Wishing all my gay brothers and sisters a Happy Pride Day from > Los Angeles. > > - Clark > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:30:16 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: Steely Dan, Joni and mu major chords Oh. I hear Ya'. I have to check that when I get home at the keyboard. God, I need to get my piano tuned. I've been playing Man From Mars on my synthesizer though. It feels so good. What a simple but unusual (as usual) melody. Long live The Queen Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: h.wright@2020speech.com [mailto:h.wright@2020speech.com]On Behalf > Of Howard Wright > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 8:54 AM > To: joni@smoe.org; peves@marlboro.edu; SCJoniGuy@aol.com; > wallykai@interserver.com.ar > Subject: Re: Steely Dan, Joni and mu major chords > > > > From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com: > > >So what songs of Joni's are mu'd (he asked, creating a new verb in the > process)? > > Songs that use a mu-major tuning include Cherokee Louise, Crazy Cries of > Love, Taming The Tiger, Sunny Sunday, Yvette in English, God must be a > boogie man ... > > That doesn't mean that all the chords in those songs are mu-majors, > though quite a few of the will be (e.g the first two chords in the intro > of Cherokee Louise are mu majors). > > > Howard W. wrote: > > The basic mu-major chord is a standard major chord with an added 2nd, > so > > you end up with the root (1st), 2nd, maj 3rd and 5th. > > >Wally Kairuz wrote: > > > >is the first chord on paprika plains a mu chord then? > > Not quite, but the third one is! I hear these as the first three chords: > > (all chords spelled out in notes, low to high) > > GCDG > DFB > AFGC > > The first chord is like a Csus2, but with a G in the bass, so it's > Csus2/G. It doesn't have the third in it, so it's not a mu, though it is > a close relative. > > The third chord has the same triad on the top, shifted up, so you get an > Fsus2 sound, but now the third of F (A) is in the bass, so you *do* have > all the notes of a mu major (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th), i.e the third chord is > a mu-major! > > > Peg (peves@marlboro.edu) wrote: > > >I think the first chord at the start of the verse of Hejira is B > mu-major. Is that true? > > I think the first chord in the Hejira verse is C6/9 (notes: CGEGAD), but > again, this is closely related to the mu major. If you take out the 6th > (A) from the chord, > you end up with a mu-major because you have only the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and > 5th. > > > Howard > > > P.S It's funny, I've never heard Steely Dan talk about "mu minor > chords", but there are the obvious equivalent of the mu major. > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:06:48 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Metheny / Gorelick (njc) Fred--- When I say jazz is a word that connotes creativity and integrity and you say this is only true of good jazz...aren't we talking about two different things? You're asking whether the qualities of integrity and creativity are present in a specific performance and I'm talking about how the WORD jazz is misused in order to sell a product by capitalizing on the positive associations it arouses in potential consumers. As for your citing Coltrane and Mahavishnu and Weather Report: I don't think it's the same as Kenny G at all. The former all had careers and discographies smack in the mainstream of jazz before they innovated in directions that raised some cries of alarm. As time went by, they played music that didn't always "swing" like I like it to swing, but there was energy, challenge, passion in what they did. G? None of that. I heard Miroslav Vitous and Jan Hammer play in Europe in 1966 and believe me, they were smokin' jazz players then. Zawinul played and recorded with Cannonball Adderley. Rick Laird was practically the house bass player at Ronnie Scott's in London and I toured with him on Buddy Rich's band in 1969. What is G's resume? Ironically, one partial parallel that comes to mind for me is Ornette Coleman since I'm not aware that anyone after 1959 ever hired him as a sideman (of course he might have declined offers) and there is very little swing in his music. But his original sidemen (Cherry, Redman, Haden, Higgins and Blackwell) are all rightfully respected, even revered by jazz players. I don't question his sincerity and I don't disagree with people who say he had an enormous liberating influence on jazz. Nevertheless, I hunger for the feeling of jazz and Ornette's music itself gives me very little pleasure. I feel that calling what Kenny G does "jazz" keeps inexperienced listeners away from contact with the real thing. We who play jazz--and they, who may never hear Charlie Parker--are all poorer for that. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:09:18 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: favorite cd's I completely understand and respect your point of view, Fred. My question was, why the problem with pirated CD's vs. pirated tapes? The feeling I'm getting from a lot of this discussion is that pirated CD's are in some way "worse" than tapes. I apoligize if I have missed the point of this debate. To me, stealing by unauthorized copying is the same be it disc or tape. That's all I was trying to say. Reuben >From: FredNow@aol.com > >If you are making a second copy for your own personal use (say, for the >car), having already bought a copy, that's cool. But if you obtain a burned >CD as your only copy instead of buying one (the scenario described in the >Steely Dan post that spawned this debate), you are stealing the music from >the artist you admire, plain and simple. Musicians/composers receive a >royalty from each unit sold, and that's how we pay the bills and buy food >for Baby. To deny your favorite musicians their just rewards for their >creative efforts >is indeed morally reprehensible. >-Fred Simon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:33:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: was don's dander, now a poem for paul...(NJC) - --- MGVal@aol.com wrote: > Perhaps a better route is to just not insult! What's > petty and small > potato(e)s posting to one person is really, really > important to another. Who > is to place value on things like that? I sure > wouldn't! > > I would hate to have people be paranoid about what > they write and how their > humor is received, but I also believe that we all > have a responsibility to > post responsibly Well said, and point well taken! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:15:26 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: The Last Time I Saw Dickhead I love that!! Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of > TheHotelNH@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 9:24 AM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re:The Last Time I Saw Dickhead > > > You eat he said you live to consume > Go look at your ass it's full of room > You like drive-thru's and fast foods and greasy men who sell you > All those greasy fries greasy fries > When you gonna realize they're only greasy fries > Only greasy fries just greasy fries > > I thought this was hilarious! Thanks for that... > > Chris > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:42:20 PDT From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Joni and Sinead O'Connor Here's the link to the Sinead coming out article. I hope that she is for real about this. I can't help but feeling that everything she does lately is largely based on potential media attention. I can't wait for Sinead's new album...it comes out in the states tomorrow. She very rarely disappoints. http://wallofsound.go.com/news/stories/sineadoconnor060900.html Was the original version or the BSN version of "Both Sides, Now" on the pridefest CD that you got?? Reuben >From: "kerry" >Just spent the weekend at Milwaukee's Pridefest--I won a CD entitled, >"Pride >2000." It's basically a sampling of songs, a lot of dance music (what a >shock:>) and mostly people I've never heard of...Imagine my surprise when >I >saw that the last song on it was Joni's "Both Sides Now!" I couldn't >believe it! > >Also, I met the editor of "Curve" magazine and she showed us the cover of >the July issue, the headline reading, "Sinead O'Connor Comes Out." She >said >they were just interviewing her about her music and she told them she was >gay. Add one more to the fold... Thought I'd just share that interesting >bit of trivia. > >Kerry > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:27:56 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: flight of the silver beatles B., No doubt about it. The Beatles!! If we're bringing bands into the study in addition to "soloists" shouldn't we talk about JETHRO TULL? The work of Ian underwood ,IMHO, as poet, composer, arranger, musician, and singer is outstanding. What do you think? Who else. OH! Emerson, Lake & Palmer! YES? Peg >If you want to talk > >> innovation/evolution - Joni's rivals could be Laurie Anderson, David > >Byrne, > >> The Roches & the like. Folks not stuck in *style*. Who else? > Paul Simon? > >> > >> Peg > > Well, altho they are no longer with us (as such) let's keep in mind that > the musical evolution that the Beatles went through remains the > > Their like will not be seen again. > > B. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:00:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: the first Farm Aid concert NOW AVAILABLE- *ADDENDUM* > --- James Phillips wrote: > > > I was noticing a thread about Dog eat dog without the synthesisers. What > > persuaded me to get that album was footage I have of Joni at the first Farm > > Aid concert here in Champaign, Ill back in '85. She came out and did with > > an electric (I think it was an electric) white guitar Three Great > > Stimulants. Than afterwords, she moved to the piano and did the song Dog > > eat dog. Seeing her do just those two songs is what persuaded me to get > > Dog eat dog, even though there were huge differences between the studio > > versions of those songs and the live versions from Farm Aid. > Then I wrote: > > I have this footage myself and will share it with anyone who will send me a > VHS > tape cued up to the spot they want it. The 2 song set runs 13 minutes total. > > Send your tape, along with a postage paid mailing envelope for me to return > it to you (or someone else of your choosing, if you want) to: > > Brian Gross > PO Box 5126 > Deptford NJ 08096-0126 > > Listers outside the USA, your best bet would be a Fedex or UPS or Airborne > international airbill. I realized this morning that I should have also listed the street address for non-US Postal Service deliveries. Sorry about that, Chief ;-) Brian Gross Lodging Products Inc 1001 Lower Landing Road, Suite 205 Blackwood NJ 08012 USA (856) 232-7220 I'll dub them and get them back out to you all as they arrive. Sharing Joni with those who appreciate her is a wonderful thing. I will also include a BSN Tour program in each package as long as they last. Thank you for allowing me to do this. Take care, and be well, everyone. Brian np: For The Roses cd ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:17:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re:Some things best... - --- CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: I > love "Electricity", but what does it all really > mean? Some of it makes > sense, but what the hell is a proud headed Queen > Lizzie? I've asked before, > but our technical manual's are all busy on that one. The copper proud-headed Queen Lizzie is a Canadian penny - Liz is on the "heads" side. A penny (because it's copper) can be used as a quick fix for a blown fuse, but shouldn't be, because it's totally not safe (fire hazard, y'know.) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:34:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NJC, defining bootlegging, my $.02 worth - --- philipf@tinet.ie wrote: > Home taping is illegal. It says so on my copy of > WTRF and on all my > other records in slightly less direct words. I've > yet to see a cd which > says that it's ok to make a copy for personal use in > the car. Of course > it's a law that's' impossible to enforce because > everyone does it. It could be a myth. Or it could be based on common law. It could be simply that, if there's no law that says you CAN'T do something, then it's presumed OK to do it. The problem with the law is that often, as it gets more and more specific, it often creates more loopholes, which is what, in tightening up law, it is meant to prevent! I do make copies of my favourite CDs (or favourite selections from some) for my own use for the walkman (until I get a discman or whatever). I don't see any harm in that and in fact, in some cases, I buy both the CD AND the tape, so I don't see anyone losing income from me. I prefer to have the packaging and liner notes. For me, making a tape of a favourite CD is more of a temporary thing. These days too, sometimes you can find the CD, but not the tape. I see no harm in "sampler" copies - I have gone out and bought complete CDs or tapes as a result of hearing samplers. I wouldn't condone as a general rule, that is, promoters may send out samplers to promote one of their artist's work and that's OK - but anyone doing this as bootleg items for their own personal profit should be taken to court. Even if the law may be fuzzy on this, (and I'm not sure whether it is or not), there are morals and ethics to consider - I have friends who are musicians and wouldn't want to deprive them of any income. I would extend this same courtesy to musicians that I don't know personally, simply because I know it's not an easy life for most of them. If the item is out of print, again, I wouldn't have any problem with copying it - if the companies who produce this stuff want the income, they should be making reprints and, if they're still representing the artists, they should be doing a better job of it. I would, (and I have done) contact the company in question to let them know there was an interest in this stuff - again, I would rather have a bound copy of a book than a bunch of photocopies stapled together, and a CD or tape with liner notes and so on than a copy. I would not accept any money if I copied something for someone, nor would I expect to pay someone for it (except for the cost of materials, that is.) The only reasons I might do this are: the item is out of print; I really like the artist in question and am hoping to convert a friend to them, in the hope that they will actually go out and guy some of this person's stuff, and share the good news with their friends. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:46:20 EDT From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: flight of the silver beatles In a message dated 6/12/00 11:18:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, peves@marlboro.edu writes: << If we're bringing bands into the study in addition to "soloists" shouldn't we talk about JETHRO TULL? The work of Ian underwood ,IMHO, as poet, composer, arranger, musician, and singer is outstanding. What do you think? Who else. OH! Emerson, Lake & Palmer! YES? >> there are a lot of tull fans on the list and elp. yes was a funny one. i loved them and some people agreed, but some found jon's voice annoying. i grew up basically listening to yes and tull and had both catalogues. i can still remember my grandmother picking up my aqualung album and reading the back of it and saying, jesus mary and joseph, paddy, what' yuu listenin' tuu. in fact, i just bought aqualung for my nephew and sent it to him a few weeks ago for a late christmas present. better late than never! pat np. lover lay down - dm/tr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:53:13 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Joni article in S'toon Star-Phoenix Are cameras allowed? If so people, snap away!!! NP-Grateful Dead, Dark Star At 11:19 PM -0600 6/11/00, evian wrote: >Hi folks, > This was on the front page of the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix yesterday, >and since their website is pretty much the shits and doesn't have this, >I thought I'd copy it for y'all: - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net tape trading: http://homepage.mac.com/mtd/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:55:12 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: favorite cd's In a message dated 6/12/00 9:09:30 AM, reubenbell@hotmail.com writes: >I completely understand and respect your point of view, Fred. My question >was, why the problem with pirated CD's vs. pirated tapes? The feeling >I'm getting from a lot of this discussion is that pirated CD's are in some >way "worse" than tapes. If you make a copy, CD or tape, instead of buying, it's stealing. The only way in which a CD copy is considered "worse" is that because it is identical in sonic quality (as opposed to a tape copy, which is degraded sonically), it is more enticing, therefore more likely to be pirated, and is "more" of a ripoff because the copier is getting the full value of the original. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:13:19 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Re: re:Some things best... In a message dated 6/12/00 7:17:44 AM, catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca writes: << The copper proud-headed Queen Lizzie is a Canadian penny - Liz is on the "heads" side. A penny (because it's copper) can be used as a quick fix for a blown fuse, but shouldn't be, because it's totally not safe (fire hazard, y'know.) >> Okay, but what does that mean within the context of the song? And would a Canadian really say, "Honey, have you got a proud headed Queen Lizzie so I can fix the fusebox?" I do have a Candian friend who is from New Brunswick, and one time he was talking about the farms of some Dutch settlers which he said "they keep in fit repair." It took me a second to realize where I'd heard that expression. NP: Beck, Odelay - - Clark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:48:27 -0400 From: Yael Harlap Subject: Song about the midway for Kate I tried to e-mail this to Kate directly but it was undeliverable so here it is to the list and I hope no one laughs at the poor job I did laying out the chords! :) Hi Kate- Did someone get you Song About the Midway in standard tuning yet?? I am behind in my digest reading, so I am not sure... Hopefully this will still be useful. I've never written up chords before and some of these are odd so I'll write it up unconventionally and you can turn it into little guitar boxes. :) This is how my friend taught it to me: Intro: E (hammer on both 2nd and 3rd) D (007770) (hammer on 4th and 5th) A (077600) (hammer on 2nd and 3rd) E Most of the song uses those chords and I use the same hammer-ons throughout. Anywhere I say "D" or "A" I mean those voicings above unless otherwise specified (eg: A-normal would be 002220) (these two chords share 1 measure) B7th-hybrid (799800) ??(577600) ??(066040) A(normal) E(x2) I met you on the mid way at a fair last year B7th-hybrid (799800) ??(577600) ??(066040) A(normal) E(x2) And you stood out like a ru- by in a black man's ear D A You were playing on the horses E D You were playing on the guitar strings A A E(x2) You were playing like a devil wearing wings. D D Wearing wings you looked so grand, A E(x2) Wearing wings... D A E(x2) Do you tape them to your shoulders just to sing? D D Can you fly? I heard you can A E(x2) Can you fly..... D A (Intro starts: E D A E) Like an eagle doing your hunting from the sky. And the rest of the verses are the same. For the end, when she sings "I'm midway down the mid....way...." I hang on D for a while and go straight to E for the "slowing down" rather than using the intervening A that usually appears. Then I use the regular progression (E D A E) for the E D A E D A E "down... down.. down... down.... 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + For strumming I use a 4-4 down- down up - up - up pattern. The exception is when I do the intro - both at the beginning, between every verse, and at the end - on the last E I play only 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + down down up I hope that was understandable!! Let me know if you come up with some better tricks for any of the song. I've only been playing for just under a year so I have lots to learn. This was the first Joni song I learned! - -Yael Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 04:14:34 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: That Song About the Midway I need to quickly relearn That Song About the Midway. I used to play it in regular tuning but that was a long time ago. I love the chords & tuning on the JMDL site but I may not be able to learn & memorize it in time for a last minute gig (request). Can anyone help me out with standard tuning chords that work for this song? ASAP, thanks! Kate Bennett Singer/Songwriter PO Box 31001 Santa Barbara, CA 93130-1001 email kate@katebennett.com website www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:25:52 -0400 From: "Peg Eves" Subject: RE: flight of the silver beatles Brian, Yes. I hate it when I do that! I always switch their last names. But, what about what I said? Peg > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Gross [mailto:BrianGross@rocketmail.com] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 11:21 AM > To: Peg Eves > Subject: RE: flight of the silver beatles > > > > --- Peg Eves wrote: > > B., > > No doubt about it. The Beatles!! If we're bringing bands into > the study in > > addition to "soloists" shouldn't we talk about JETHRO TULL? > The work of Ian > > underwood ,IMHO, as poet, composer, arranger, musician, and singer is > > outstanding. What do you think? Who else. OH! Emerson, Lake & > Palmer! YES? > > Are you sure you didn't mean Ian Anderson? > > Take care Peg, > > Brian > > > ===== > "No paper thin walls, no folks above > No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" > > > yeah, right > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! > http://photos.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:57:05 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC, bootlegging, my $.02 worth Not only has "bootlegging" never been proven to have "cost" the artists anything, the whole idea flys in the face of advertising. Artists corporations spend untold millions in advertising to get \people to like an act enough to buy their product. Since no bootleg ever has been of the quality of commercial releases of product then all that a boot CAN do is increase or enhance interest. Just like advertising. The Dead have been smart enough to PROMOTE their bootleggers just as they have their own ticket agency and product production entity. All a boot really is is a special memorabilia type object. Arguments about the morality of the subject is specious IMHO. marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:00:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: re:Some things best... I said: > The copper proud-headed Queen Lizzie is a Canadian > penny - Liz is on the "heads" side. A penny > (because > it's copper) can be used as a quick fix for a blown > fuse, but shouldn't be, because it's totally not > safe > (fire hazard, y'know.) >> - --- CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > Okay, but what does that mean within the context of > the song? And would a > Canadian really say, "Honey, have you got a proud > headed Queen Lizzie so I > can fix the fusebox?" Oh, I think not, eh! That's a Joni-ism, for sure. A penny is a penny (my parents called them coppers.) What does it mean in the context of the song? Like, I would know? ;) I was going to respond to the e-mails with the biblical references relating to "Passion Play" but didn't because I didn't feel there was much I could add - what a remarkable job some of you bible belters have done! (I'm not being sarcastic - I'm amazed). I guess I'm pretty shallow, or maybe it's because I'm Catholic ;) I'm not well-versed in the bible and would never see all the inferences Joni makes to actual biblical events that some of you have. I also tend to see a lot of her work in a more impressionistic way so, to me, although I see/hear the crucifixion imagery in "Passion Play" for example, I also see and hear it in what, for lack of a better word, I'd have to call "blobs" - a little bit of this and a little bit of that. So, while killer nails can be the nails of crucifixion, the ringing can also represent the ringing of cash registers and telephones - - again, it's Joni's irony and duality showing through. While the killer nails are ringing, bringing death (of the body, of the spirit perhaps), the cash registers are ringing up the sale of another piece of the artist's soul. The multitudes can be the biblical multitudes, but they're also the common people - those who keep the marketplace going, who feed the artist's body while consuming some of her soul. So, to get back to the copper proud-headed Queen Lizzie... the song deals with electricity. The electricity of love and passion; faulty wiring; a burnt-out fuse; a crossed circuit. She's put a penny in for the fuse, but it's not working - the charges are only going one way. Sounds like a pretty one-sided relationship to me. This song is from "For the Roses", so I guess it was written during the time Joni went to BC to rest for a bit, tired of the Hollywood scene. I don't know who her lover at the time was (JT maybe? it doesn't matter) but I presume the relationship had taken a downturn at this point and she needed some time alone. Who is "the minus" who "talks to the land"? - the ex-lover, I presume - but there are positive/minus references throughout the song (positive/negative poles). Something has gone wrong in this relationship and she's trying to fix it. The power has gone out and she's down in the basement with a candle or a flashlight trying to figure out what the problem is. The technical manual's not much help and the masking tape (electrical tape really) is getting all tangled up. Is she singing to herself or to someone else? To herself through someone else? A friend, perhaps, whose relationship has failed? She changes the voice from time to time ("*She's* not going to fix it up too easy"; "*She* holds out her flashlight and she shines it *on me*"; "*They're* not going to fix it up too easy"; "*We* once loved together"). This is one of the things I love about Joni's lyrics - they're highly personal but also universal. "The song that he sang her/ to soothe her to sleep/ Runs all through her circuits... like a heartbeat", with the baseline doing a heartbeat kind of sound. Oh man, I love that song! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:10:53 -0400 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Re: mermaid cafe Philip philipf@tinet.ie wrote > I was in Matala in the mid 80's. There was no Mermaid Cafe Here's a picture of the Matala moon though http://www.interkriti.org/visits/matala.htm PaulC PS. And, to up the JC a bit, another Altman pic of Joni at Esalen in '68 with Judy and Joan. http://www2.cea.edu/robert/Page13.Mixed.Bag.html (scroll down - after Donovan) Anyone know who the other two are? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:12:51 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Saskatoon list From: "Pitassi, Mary" Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:47:52 -0500 Attention, all Saskatoon-goers, confirmed and potential! I've attempted to set up a list on e-groups so that we may communicate with one another about travel plans, ideas for our stay, etc. The name of the group is "jonisaskatoon." To sub.scribe, send a message to "jonisaskatoon-sub.scribe@egroups.com" (without the period). To post a message, the address is "jonisaskatoon@egroups.com." Right now, I'm the only member, so it's getting lonely! ;-) Let's see if this works. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:39:04 -0500 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Pat Metheny Hello List- I picked up on this thread from the very beginning and was disturbed by the whole situation. I have been a huge Pat Metheny fan for many years and have pretty much dismissed Kenny G and his music without much need for explanation there. I was surprised about what I was reading till I got this post below from another list I am a member on (the Eric Johnson List) and it sort of out it ALL into context for me. I continue to be a little disturbed by the whole issue in general, but I chose to pass this on to the group so you could have as much info possible to be able to sort this out in your own minds and hearts. Michael Reprinted from the EJ list: Question: Pat, could you tell us your opinion about Kenny G - it appears you were quoted as being less than enthusiastic about him and his music. I would say that most of the serious music listeners in the world would not find your opinion surprising or unlikely - but you were vocal about it for the first time. You are generally supportive of other musicians it seems. Pat's Answer: kenny g is not a musician i really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. there was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records. i first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with jeff lorber when they opened a concert for my band. my impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like grover washington or david sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. he had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music. but he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the keys moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again) . the other main thing i noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, play horribly out of tune - consistently sharp. of course, i am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. this controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years. and honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisers and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. there must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than kenny g on his chosen instruments. it would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement. having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as i will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all. stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. it's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. so, lately i have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may. and after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? he SHOULD be compared to john coltrane or wayne shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential. as a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to hereby hancock, horace silver or, even graver, washington. suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well. but, like i said at the top, this relatively benign view was all (until recently). not long ago, kenny g put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old louis armstrong record, the track (what a wonderful world). with this single move, kenny g became one of the few people on earth i can say that i really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music. this type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when natalie cole did it with her dad on (unforgettable) a few years ago, but it was her dad. when tony bennett did it with billie holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. when larry coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a wes montgomery track, i lost a lot of the respect that i ever had for him - and i have to seriously question the fact that i did have respect for someone who could turn out to have have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes. but when kenny g decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that i would not have imagined possible. he, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that louis armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. by disrespecting louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, kenny g has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. we ignore this, (let it slide), at our own peril. his callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring. since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be, i encourage everyone to boycott kenny g recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. if asked about kenny g, i will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay. normally, i feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is different. there ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, louis armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. to ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and i refuse to do that. (i am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!- , magazines, etc.). everything i said here is exactly the same as what i would say to gorelick if i ever saw him in person. and if i ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.) NOTE: this post is partially in response to the comments that people have made regarding a short video interview excerpt with me that was posted on the internet taken from a tv show for young people (kind of like MTV) in poland where i was asked to address 8 to 11 year old kids on terms that they could understand about jazz. while enthusiastically describing the virtues of this great area of music, i was encouraging the kids to find and listen to some of the greats in the music and not to get confused by the sometimes overwhelming volume of music that falls under the jazz umbrella. i went on to say that i think that for instance, "kenny g plays the dumbest music on the planet" - something that all 8 to 11 year kids on the planet already intrinsically know, as anyone who has ever spent any time around kids that age could confirm - so it gave us some common ground for the rest of the discussion. (ADDENDUM: the only thing wrong with the statement that i made was that i did not include the rest of the known universe.) the fact that this clip was released so far out of the context that it was delivered in is a drag, but it is now done. (its unauthorized release out of context like that is symptomatic of the new electronically interconnected culture that we now live in - where pretty much anything anyone anywhere has ever said or done has the potential to become common public property at any time.) i was surprised by the polish people putting this clip up so far away from the use that it was intended -really just for the attention - with no explanation of the show it was made for - they (the polish people in general) used to be so hip and would have been unlikely candidates to do something like that before, but i guess everything is changing there like it is everywhere else. the only other thing that surprised me in the aftermath of the release of this little interview is that ANYONE would be even a little bit surprised that i would say such a thing, given the reality of mr. g's music. this makes me want to go practice about 10 times harder, because that suggests to me that i am not getting my own musical message across clearly enough - which to me, in every single way and intention is diametrically opposed to what Kenny G seems to be after. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #325 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?