From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #306 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Friday, June 2 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 306 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Download mp3s from TNT ["Ken (slarty)" ] Re: No Subject [Catherine McKay ] Re: DED [Phyliss Ward ] Re: This list (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Hejira Anon....and on ["Steve Mitchell" ] Coming Down from N.O. [Phyliss Ward ] Re: Hissing, and the arc of life ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: DED (Don's dander is officially UP) [Don Rowe ] Re: DED [Catherine McKay ] Re: Coming Down from N.O. NJC [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: DED ["Alison Einerson" ] Re: Hissing, and the arc of life [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: DED (Impossible Dreamer) ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: Joni photo from New York magazine [Catherine McKay ] Re: DED (Don's dander is officially UP) ["Alison Einerson" ] Re: Early Joni info please, Pat ["P. Henry" ] Re: No One Prepared Me [Howard Motyl ] Re: Early Joni info ps... ["P. Henry" ] Re: DED [catman ] Re: Early Joni info please, Pat [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Marcels take: Night of Nights Part 2-a [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Early Joni info ps... [Catherine McKay ] Re: DED [Catherine McKay ] Marcels take: Pazfest: Night of Nights part 3 [MDESTE1@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:07:45 -0400 From: "Ken (slarty)" Subject: Download mp3s from TNT Brenda was kind enough to set up accounts for the JMDL on 2 different web sites as of her post yesterday. I've uploaded 14 songs from the TNT broadcast which can be accessed by anyone on the list. They can be played directly from the website or you can download them. http://myplay.com email: jmdl-files@mail.com password: hejira The allowed size of our uploads is 3 gigs so in the future it would be possible to upload all the tape trees there. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:13:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: No Subject - --- "P. Henry" wrote: > Catherine wrote: > >Wot? You? Lie? To us? Shirley Yoo jest!> > > > ...and don't call me Shirley!!! ;o) > Oops - somebody's been watching too many "Airplane" movies! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:15:23 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: DED "James L. Leonard" wrote: > While we're on the subject of DED, does anyone know if "Impossible Dreamer" > was written in tribute to John Lennon? I've always wondered, but, until > recently, I had no one to ask. The reference to "Give Peace A Chance" is > what made me think that. Joni is asked that question on some interview and says that it was not about any one particular person but too many dreamers. I'm sure however, that John was one of them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:20:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: This list (NJC) - --- Chris Marshall wrote: > > > coming away from JMDL with a friend is the > > most worthwhile part of it in my ever so humble > opinion. > > Aside from being deeply touched by the sentiment, > it's wider implication > is so true. The friendship and warmth on offer here > is incredible. I truly > wonder if there are any other mailing lists that can > match it - there can > be little to add or change to improve it. (And to > think there are people > in this world who don't think they'd benefit from > having e-mail and > Internet access.) > > Long may it continue. > Every now and then I wonder whether or not there's something kind of, oh, I dunno, *sick* about it. I'm aware of certain obsessive tendancies in my own temperament and I've always tried to avoid this kind of "occasion of sin". It's that kind of thing that makes me wonder, maybe I'm spending too much time communicating with these strangers all over the world who have this love for Joni Mitchell and her music. Maybe I should spend more time doing "useful" things. Wondering, if we met, would we actually like each other? or would we be bored, repelled, whatever... Any of the reports I'm reading of the Pazfest and the assorted pre/post-BSN concert gatherings are pointing to a great big "NO". What a relief! This probably means this particular obsession is OK. (Right?) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:46:32 +0100 From: "Steve Mitchell" Subject: Re: Hejira Anon....and on Julian wrote: > ...Blue is a great album but it's so much shorter than Hejira...sometimes I > find myself wishing that I was in the Blue Anonymous group . . . . When I first got Blue on CD I used to loop the intro to The Last Time I Saw Richard and play it for hours! - --Stevie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:31:25 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Coming Down from N.O. Please tell me I am not the only one who is having trouble coming down from Paz Fest, New Orleans. I'm having trouble concentrating on the real world and getting some much needed work done. What a life changing event it was! Phyliss, off to her Friday standing lunch date with her artsy friends where she plans on dominating the conversation with stories of the past week. : - ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:34:43 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: Hissing, and the arc of life Hi, Bruce. I loved your analysis of Hissing, and think it's somewhat akin to my own (but *far* better expressed by you). Where do you fall on the Kingpin issue? I see (or saw) him as the local rich guy...the "small town big man"...maybe a great-looking former college football star-type to boot...the prized catch of the Edith circle. Other JMDLers see him as a pimp, or an underworld figure. I also used to think those things about the Kingpin, in the early years of my listening, but it upset the "storyline" I finally concocted. Unlike you, I saw the girl of "In France" as Edith, and the rest of the protagonists in the songs on Hissing as Edith, too, as she progresses through life. To that end, the Kingpin and Harry became the same person. (Granted, it's a stretch.) "Boston Jim" > 3-5) Edith and the Kingpin, Don't Interrupt the Sorrow, Shades of Scarlett > Conquering. > > Early adulthood: the power-plays of sex & romance, domination & > subservience engaged in by single men and women. Courtship as a hissing > battleground, rather than a happy sparking. > > Bruce M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:41:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: DED - --- Penny wrote: > >I'm one. Who's the other? :-) > >Now...what's DED again? > > > DED is my favorite Joni 80's album, in fact. I love > Fiction and Shiny > Toys.... they perk me up everytime. Tax Free, > Ethiopia, and Impossible > Dreamer are faves too. Only track I really don't > care for is Lucky > Girl. > I've been listening to DED a bit lately. I only had it on vinyl and didn't have a turntable to play it on. Recently I bought a cheapo boombox with a turntable on it and dubbed DED and WTRF onto tape. Unfortunately many of my LPs, after spending years in the basement and being lugged from one house to the next, have warped - anyone have any idea whether you can de-warp a record? Anyway, I've been listening to DED and WTRF. I now like DED better than WTRF - it used to be the other way around. BTW, I really *like* "Lucky Girl" - it's got this really neat syncopation. I think this would sound tres cool if she did it with a big band or a jazz combo. I also feel that if she re-did the whole of WTRF but more accoustically, it could sound a lot better - IMO there's too much "electricity" in it. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:41:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: DED (Don's dander is officially UP) - --- Steve Dulson wrote: > Julian wrote: > > The DED people have it easy is what I think;-) > > Oh, don't worry about them. They're both so > confused, they don't > know what's happening. :) Sorry Steve, I know you've heard all this before, but the post is under your signature, so for the benefit of the newbies: The Defense of Dog-Eat-Dog Now them's some fightin' words! First of all, Julian, the "DED people" as you call us -- get it right -- we are all members of DEDMAS: The Dog-Eat-Dog Musical Appreciation Society. And we do NOT have it "easy" as you put it ... It's not an easy thing to like DED. It is not "popular". It takes a strong, sensitive, literate and technically appreciative soul to understand what Joni Mitchell did with that album. What's THAT you Blue-worshippers ask? Joni Mitchell claimed ownership of the keybaord/synthesizer on DED, just as she did the alternately-tuned guitar in her early career. Those chords, those figures, those sounds she herself helped design, and played HERSELF ... for anyone to suggest that the results are brilliant, unique and 100% Joni Mitchell is to suggest that "The Last Time I Saw Richard" is a so-so confessional song. "Over-produced! Over-produced!" they all howl in the hallowed halls of Acousticia University! Why? Because the richness of the orchestral textures in the electronic treatments of the songs created, for the first time, a lusher, more intricate Joni Mitchell sound that any of us had ever heard before? Or is it that you just never thought of, or listened to it that way? "Noisy and cluttered," say those of the Inner Circle with Doctorate sheepskins in 'For the Roses' hanging on their walls. Pooh and bah! Noisier than the cloying harmonica blasts on STAS? More cluttered than the intricate sonics of 'Cotton Avenue'? Not for those with the courage to listen closely. You know, more than a few folks on this list have been reduced to whining about Joni's perm once we at DEDMAS are through with 'em. Long live Dog Eat Dog ... a jewel in Joni's crown! God I feel better! ;-) Don Rowe ===== "I do not object to others hiding from history. What I object to are others hiding history from ME." - -- Shelby Foote __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:51:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: DED - --- Phyliss Ward wrote: > "James L. Leonard" wrote: > > > While we're on the subject of DED, does anyone > know if "Impossible Dreamer" > > was written in tribute to John Lennon? I've always > wondered, but, until > > recently, I had no one to ask. The reference to > "Give Peace A Chance" is > > what made me think that. > > Joni is asked that question on some interview and > says that it was not about > any one particular person but too many dreamers. > I'm sure however, that John > was one of them. > It sounds like a composite to me - it could refer to a bunch of people. Another lister had mentioned Martin Luther King at one time. If you listen to the words, she could be talking about many idealistic people. Anyway, I prefer to see it that way, rather than it being about just one person. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:53:10 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Coming Down from N.O. NJC <> You are definitely NOT the only one, Phyliss...I've mentioned privately to a couple of the other Festers that same sentiment...what I'd give to be munching on beignets and coffee, surrounded by my fellow Joniphiles, or singing all night (my voice has finally recovered). And I know those who have had the meet n' greets for the concerts probably feel the same. You almost get the feeling that life isn't MEANT to be that good, like we've stumbled on to kind of a secret world... Bob NP: The Alarm, "68 Guns" (for you, Evian!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:04:35 -0600 From: "Alison Einerson" Subject: Re: DED okay, i don't remember which interview i heard it in, but i remember her saying she did have John Lennon in mind when she wrote the song. I have to put it on now and listen to it specifically, but it seems like there's a specific reference to him in the song. anyone have their copy of DED handy? i left mine at home. alison e in slc. - ---------- >From: Phyliss Ward >To: "James L. Leonard" >Subject: Re: DED >Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2000, 12:15 PM > >"James L. Leonard" wrote: > >> While we're on the subject of DED, does anyone know if "Impossible Dreamer" >> was written in tribute to John Lennon? I've always wondered, but, until >> recently, I had no one to ask. The reference to "Give Peace A Chance" is >> what made me think that. > >Joni is asked that question on some interview and says that it was not about >any one particular person but too many dreamers. I'm sure however, that John >was one of them. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:55:51 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Hissing, and the arc of life <> Ditto for me, although I'm having a hard time fitting Boho Dance into it - it's sort of another issue, even though it's a subset of the maturity from idealistic youth to maturity... But a great post, very well thought out! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:59:42 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: DED (Impossible Dreamer) I have to agree with you and Phyliss, Catherine. The lyrics, when taken en totale, didn't strike me as being specific enough to be solely about Lennon. There was that "Give Peace A Chance" line, though, and it always kept me from knowing for sure. "Boston Jim" > > It sounds like a composite to me - it could refer to a > bunch of people. Another lister had mentioned Martin > Luther King at one time. If you listen to the words, > she could be talking about many idealistic people. > Anyway, I prefer to see it that way, rather than it > being about just one person. > > Catherine (in Toronto) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:58:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni photo from New York magazine - --- Deb Messling wrote: > Here's the beautiful picture of Joni in the May 29 > issue of New York magazine: > http://www.enter.net/~messling/newyorkmag.html Deb, I finally got around to opening up the link you posted - I often save these kinds of posts for later, kind of like dessert after the meal, so I don't get around to them until after I've read the "news". What a gorgeous woman! If I didn't love her so much, I'd have to hate her for being so beautiful! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:12:19 -0600 From: "Alison Einerson" Subject: Re: Meritocracy NJC i think there are many ways to interpret "meritocracy", colin. it doesn't necessarily refer to intelligence or IQ, it also refers to how hard a person is willing to be successful or have a fulfilling life, and to contribute positively to society. grades, "book smarts" aren't always all a person needs to be successful. sometimes they can actually hamper a person. i've always thought of meritocracy as based on a less stringent idea of "merit"--how hard you work determines how much merit you have. does this make sense? in a true meritocracy, teachers would make six figures because what they do so directly affects all in that society. same with "nurding" (yeah, i think you meant nursing..:-), farming, etc. alison e. in slc. - ---------- >From: catman The term >meritocracy came up and was explained as the idea that people should be >rewarded for their abilities eg good grades good job good pay. >On the surface this seems fair. >Maybe it isn't though. unless I am mistaken, isn't intelligence largely >inherited? I am aware that nurture can help with this but not to the >point where we can all be really intelligent. So where does that leave >people who just don't have the brain power to get the good grades? In >low paid jobs? How is this fair? >I know life itself is not 'fair' but these people were going on as if >this meritocracy idea was really good and I thought so too till i >started to think about it. >It seems to me then that your life and lving standard will be determined >by the iq you got lumbered with.(speaking in terms of 'developed' >countries). > >I can't speak for anywhere esle but here the worst paid people do the >most important jobs-like nurding, teaching, refuse collection, mining, >food growers, shop staff etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:14:09 -0600 From: "Alison Einerson" Subject: Re: DED (Don's dander is officially UP) god i love that i have don on my side. can this guy postulate or what???? alison e. - ---------- >From: Don Rowe >To: Steve Dulson >Subject: Re: DED (Don's dander is officially UP) >Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2000, 12:41 PM > >--- Steve Dulson wrote: >> Julian wrote: >> >> The DED people have it easy is what I think;-) >> >> Oh, don't worry about them. They're both so >> confused, they don't >> know what's happening. :) > >Sorry Steve, I know you've heard all this before, but >the post is under your signature, so for the benefit >of the newbies: > >The Defense of Dog-Eat-Dog > >Now them's some fightin' words! First of all, Julian, >the "DED people" as you call us -- get it right -- we >are all members of DEDMAS: The Dog-Eat-Dog Musical >Appreciation Society. And we do NOT have it "easy" as >you put it ... > >It's not an easy thing to like DED. It is not >"popular". It takes a strong, sensitive, literate and >technically appreciative soul to understand what Joni >Mitchell did with that album. > >What's THAT you Blue-worshippers ask? > >Joni Mitchell claimed ownership of the >keybaord/synthesizer on DED, just as she did the >alternately-tuned guitar in her early career. Those >chords, those figures, those sounds she herself helped >design, and played HERSELF ... for anyone to suggest >that the results are brilliant, unique and 100% Joni >Mitchell is to suggest that "The Last Time I Saw >Richard" is a so-so confessional song. > >"Over-produced! Over-produced!" they all howl in the >hallowed halls of Acousticia University! Why? >Because the richness of the orchestral textures in the >electronic treatments of the songs created, for the >first time, a lusher, more intricate Joni Mitchell >sound that any of us had ever heard before? Or is it >that you just never thought of, or listened to it that >way? > >"Noisy and cluttered," say those of the Inner Circle >with Doctorate sheepskins in 'For the Roses' hanging >on their walls. Pooh and bah! Noisier than the >cloying harmonica blasts on STAS? More cluttered than >the intricate sonics of 'Cotton Avenue'? Not for >those with the courage to listen closely. > >You know, more than a few folks on this list have been >reduced to whining about Joni's perm once we at DEDMAS >are through with 'em. > >Long live Dog Eat Dog ... a jewel in Joni's crown! > >God I feel better! ;-) > >Don Rowe > > > > > >===== >"I do not object to others hiding from history. What I object to are >others hiding history from ME." > >-- Shelby Foote > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! >http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:12:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: DED (Impossible Dreamer) - --- "James L. Leonard" wrote: > The lyrics, [for "Impossible Dreamer"]when taken en > totale, didn't strike me as being specific enough to > be solely about Lennon. > There was that "Give Peace A Chance" line, though, > and it always kept me > from knowing for sure. True, but it's followed by: "Don't think, just dance" and I don't think of Lennon as being either a dancer, or one who wrote dance music. (I think of this as being a command by Joni to herself, or to her partner, to just shut up and dance because sometimes "thinking" is too painful.) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:18:57 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Early Joni info please, Pat Penny wrote: >...I'd like some detailed info from Joni's early Detroit days. I'm planning on visiting with Sid tommorrow, the guy I know that would play on the same bill as Chuck and Joni at Detroit's The Poison Apple club.> yeah, I remember you posting about sid before... funny, I became friends with a sid (what would have been) later, in '68... by that time a full flowin', freak-flag-flyin' hippie whom I believe lived at the castle or a few doors down, but definitely on cass... you might want to show him my pics to see if it jogs the gray matter as, if my hunch proves right, he once got me a gig to play out in sylvania and would definitely remember me from the commune although, if it is him, it's funny that we never discovered out mutual acquaintance with Joni. http://homepages.go.com/~badwolff/albums/album1/images/cellar3.JPG http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff/phenry.JPEG >What I want to know before I sit down and visit with Sid is if his time with Joni preceded your's.> this is almost guaranteed as, when I met Chuck and Joni, it was very near the end of their marriage... I'm talking like a few months... whence came 'the queen's in the grove' period which I've written about before. (late '66/early '67) >Sid's extremely laid back, so I'm not sure we'll be talking in terms of actual calender dates, probably more helpful would be doing this in terms of Joni points of reference. Like what songs had she written by the time you knew her and if she played in her different tunings yet? (Sorry if this is redundant for some, but I never read the guitar threads not being a player myself.) Just in a brief conversation I've had with him before, Sid insists she still played standard tunings when he knew her and that Chuck had already become the obvious jerk. I'll also try to find out if she were living in "The Castle" at the time. (Thanks for posting that article Cassy!) I'm also hoping he may have kept some flyers with his band billed along with Chuck and Joni. (I'd get that scanned to distribute.) Anything else I should key on? I'll ask also if Joni would ever refer to Kelly to him. Did she you? Or was it hush-hush except to her very closest friends?> yes that detroit news article cassy posted was ace! well, as I belive I replied when you first posted about this, and have mentioned numerous times by now, this is how it was: I met Chuck an Joni first in my capacity as the booking person for the Cellar coffeehouse and pooked them as a duo. typically they did three sets: a set together, during which they may have performed one or two of Joni's songs occasionally but mostly played Chucks brand of popular folk material (ballads, brecht, bawdy, etc.) which were all in standard tunings, (so, yes, Joni definitely played in standard tunings) then Chuck would do a solo set, and then finally Joni would do a set exclusively of her own songs wherein the only one played in standard was UFG. (sets not necessarily in that order) as long as Chuck and Joni were together, they always lived at the castle to my knowledge and never lived anywhere else together. I don't know if you caught these two posts on catgirl's list but they sure caught my eye. unfortunately the author indicated she didn't wish to discuss them further: ""Maryjane Stelmach Honner" Subject: Hello CatGirl & all I've enjoyed being on the Joni Mitchell list so much for about a year or more, though I've not contributed to it until now. (Think the "cat picture" from Jim put me over the edge! lol). I am from the Detroit area and have many odd ties to her. My ex was a singer/songwriter who knew her quite well, as did many of my friends. "Ex" actually wrote the middle verse of "Winter Lady" (for me, BTW), if you know the song at all (a lonnnng time ago). Hmm... maybe I can remember it (or at least some of it)... Starin' out your winter window, at a (something) sky you know you've been to. In a kiss, upon a day, Before the spring. Winter Lady, dry you're crystal tears He won't know what he's missing. Love's too late, You've changed your mind, Now it's my turn to say, Oh, Winter Lady.... (chorus) Yikes - can't remember... or maybe I have selective memory from all those years ago. No matter. We used to meet Joni at the airport with roses (also Laura Nyro, if anyone knows who she was), every time she came back to town after she moved. While she was here, married to Chuck, used to see her all the time. They used to play around town a lot. Can't remember if the name of the club they played regularly was the Checkmate or Chessmate, on Livernois by University of Detroit. Good friends, who owned a club in Hamramck Michigan until last weekend when the club closed, remember better than I. And they always chastize me cuz I can't remember! Also, I just got remarried (again, after all these years) last year. Went with a guy for a long time before that who lives in Chuck & Joni's old apt. off Wayne State University campus. He always thought they lived in the apt below him. But, at one of his infamous parties, the neighbor below said "no," they lived in his apt. The neighbors have been there for 30-40 years (still a hippie bldg!) and they know the history. This was confirmed when some magazine came and did a story on the building itself. What happened was that, one day, Chuck Mitchell came knocking on my boyfriend's door. Said that he saw the article and could he visit his old apt. Guess nothing had changed (my old boyfriend isn't much for decorating). Chuck told him his bedroom was the only thing that he (Chuck) had a chance to work on when they lived there. It's restored with old wainscoting panelling, which Chuck did. Looks very cool. But funny thing is I, being an artist myself among other things, had just done the cover of Jam Rag Magazine's first Indie Release Guide (a music magazine) using a piece of artwork that features that room. Also, learned the story of the song "The Last Time I Saw Richard" from one of the neighbors at one of the "parties." I ended up, a short time later, marrying a Richard whom I started seeing at the tail end of going with the "boyfriend," and we happened to hang out at the bar around the corner that is alluded to in the song. If you want to know the name of it... it's the Circa, on Cass Avenue, and it's stil there. Mj Detroit" - ------------------------------------------------- ...and (during the time of the recent (apr?) Joni-Folk thread) then: ""Maryjane Stelmach Honner" Subject: Re: Joni in Detroit Hi - As I wrote Terry, I'd rather not. Not right now anyway. But thanks for the invite. We'll see.... (BTW, the blank "something" in the Winter Lady verse is "silver sky" not "winter sky." Just remembered this afternoon. These old brain cells! I tell ya! Of course, she played "real folk songs" back then (well, guess it depends on your definition), with and without Chuck. Also lots of Chuck's original material (accompaniment mostly). She was very, very shy however... pretty much always in the background. But I think it had to do a lot with him. They also did songs of the time, whatever was popular on the radio. Mj ----- Original Message ----- From: susan+rick To: Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 1:33 PM Subject: [JoniMitchellfans] Re: Joni in Detroit Mj wrote: I am from the Detroit area and have many odd ties to her. My ex was a singer/songwriter who knew her quite well, as did many of my friends. Hi Mj, I'm new to the Fans List but have been on JMDL for the better part of a year. Your memories of the Detroit Joni would be greatly appreciated on that list, especially if you could come up with some memory which could settle the argument as to whether Joni ever played *real* folk songs in her early career. All good things Rick" of course these posts leave many unanswered questions... who knows? maybe this is sid's ex! ;o) at any rate, I hope I've provided you with some worthwile info... take care, pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:21:39 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: No One Prepared Me Vince Lavieri wrote: > Howard's light did indeed come on before FTR but it came on again in FTR > and did as I said. As Laura, Jody, and I were in the first row balcony, it > was very easy to see. > > In Detroit, I was in in the 5th row center when FTR was sung and as I was > looking for the spotlight, I saw it but figured for those down center > front, it would have been harder to pick up on, as the perspective was > different. > > But Howard, um, the light, the empty spotlight, was there on the empty > microphone as FTR ended. Remember how in Chicago Joni kind of slowly > exited the stage after she finished the lyric on FTR? That was when the > empty spotlight on empty mic thing was happening. In Detroit, as she left > more quickly, it didn't linger but it was sure there. > > Vince Hmm. I was watching her walk so stealthily off stage that I guess I didn't see the light move. Vince, I guess I was in another arena entirely, lost in my head and Joni's walk across the stage as she looked back to watch the sax player. I am kind of embarrassed to say, I didn't get why the light went on. Guess I should have listened to those lyrics of FTR a little more closely. But I knew all the words to Hejira! And Be Cool! Humbly, Howard M ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:37:35 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Early Joni info ps... ps - oops! for got to respond to this: >I'll ask also if Joni would ever refer to Kelly to him. Did she you? Or was it hush-hush except to her very closest friends?> to be honest, I don't think she ever mentioned Kelly to *anyone*... I don't know if I could say I was among Joni's 'very closest friends' but we *were* close... I say this because we spent many hours together and she did share many very personal things with me that one would typically only discuss with a trusted amigo. in retrospect, not having even known about it, it explains a lot... the long silences... the barely concealed sorrow... I think she really went through hell about it and my feeling is she probably literally *couldn't* talk about it... without 'bustin' up'. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 21:05:25 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: DED > > I think he must mean me Jim. I'm a huge DED (Dog Eat Dog) fan, but I swear > Don Rowe said he's a fan too so there must be three of us! Four at least. It is one of my specials. > > Cassy > N.P. Terence Trent Darby ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:13:09 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: Early Joni info please, Pat <> Thanks for your patience and re-telling, Pat. I wanted to have a copy of this post to share with Sid, and with there being so many newbies, I thought maybe they would enjoy a, new to them, read of your notes too. ;-) I'll have Sid look at your mug.....I've seen old pictures of Sid..... now, and years ago too, he could have easily passed for Jerry Garcia's identical twin brother. Wouldn't it be ironic if he is the same guy you knew! BTW, Sid is highly intelligent, albeit pretty eccentric....I have no doubt his grey matter clicks easily. ;-) If you think of anymore Joni notes you would compare if you had a chance to visit with someone else from that time and place, pass them on to me privately before I have a leisurely chat over a couple of cups of coffee with Sid. Penny :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Grace dies when it becomes us versus them......Philip Yancey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:14:41 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Marcels take: Night of Nights Part 2-a THE NIGHT OF NIGHTS This post is definitely in the realm of where do I start. We all know about the famous artists that grace all the big concerts and events. Most people tend to assume that they are there because they are literally better than all the other artists. That is decidedly an erroneous view. There are in fact many thousands of artists probably as good or better than all the famous people. Why they are not "up there" is because of many reasons which could be personal problems, addictions, life choices, or they simply never got the ultimate connection they needed to get to the top. That they have all the tallent in the world however can not be denied. That they are just as good as almost any famous artist also can't be denied. In fact in probably every major music center (of which there are maybe six in this country) there is this substrata of tallent that equals the "big time"in ability, but spends their lives and careers performing their hearts out without ever having that major hit or break to put them over the top. Some are young, some are pretty, some arent. But they are all killer performers. Michael happens to be at the focal point of all the tallent that flows through one of the best of all the musical centers in the US. He produces a TV show called Louisianna Jukebox which has bonified stars on every week (along with his home movies of himself playing his original tunes that he manages to slip in when the executive producer is taking a cigarette break). ha ha. The morning of the big shew we went back to the French Quarter with the flea market etc. We had a sound check slash private concert scheduled for around 2pm. This was supposed to be a time when all the listmembers pereform from the stage for the rest of the list members. Unfortunately Michael had to take care of some last minute details so he couldnt be there. Also we had an apparent bonified emergency as Kakki had become infested with "chiggers" on her leg and had an allergic reaction so she had to go to the hospital. She managed to come back amazingly in a couple of hours. Victor did several original songs of his then Michael popped in long enough to ask me to get up and play so I did three songs followed by several more members. Again, most unfortunately, there was no casette deck along with the sound board so we didnt get any of this on tape. Near the end I left to go back and freshen up. As the sun set the hour approached. We all returned to the Howlin Wolf around 7pm. The Wolf is a somewhat typical rock n roll club. It has a fair sized stage and a really tremendous sound system. The floor area in the middle has your basic round stand-up tables. On each side there is a section of different tables which are underneath the overhang of the balcony. The Balcony is empty but provides an incredible view of the stage. The format for the night would have the JMDL listers who were going to play going on first.For some reason Michael had kept the actual song he was going to have each of us play as some big secret. I was relieved once I found out that he was letting me play Woodstock simply because I had been playing the song for many years. When I first got up there there was no mic response to my guitar but the great roadie that the club provided seemed to fix the problem instantly. I think I did ok. My voice felt good. Below Im listing all the songs and all the players in the order that they played. There was really something mysteriously special about this night. First of all all the listmembers I thought played their best songs better than at any of the other prior ad hoc jams. As each performer did their songs the whole thing just semed to get better and better. After each performer I found myself thinking wow how could anyone beat that only to be followed by the next performer who was maybe completetly different but in their own way just as good. I was thrilled ,honored, priviledged and blessed to be allowed to play in an event such as this. I owe alot to Michael Paz and I decided that I will ship that six pack of Diet Pepsi to his house pronto as a strong token of my appreciation. Seriously this was one of the best gifts anyone has ever given to me and Im sure everyone else feels the same way. Frankly I dont know what I could give him to repay him for a lifetime treasured experience. After the listmembers played (I think) but before Michaels band played we had the ceremony for Wally. Leslie Mixon did a fabulous job of reading for us the piece that Jim (Wallys friend) wrote about him. Leslie looked great in her outfit and Jim L'Hommedieu passed out the candles. Slowly the room began to fill with lighted candles and at the end of Leslies reading instead of a moment of complete silence we had this great sound system softly play Tiger Bones. The people from new Orleans who knew nothing about Wally or the JMDL remained totally silent and there was a very mystical atmosphere created as the incredible sound of Jonis VG-8 and chording of Tiger Bones filled the room. Whoever decided to use that song made a fantastic decision. Leslie was one of those special people who was very close to Wally and unlike the rest of us she was working closely with him right up until he passed away. Undoubtedly what she was about to do was heavily on her mind and giving a speech like she gave had to make it difficult to function before and after. I know I would have had a difficult time. In any event Leslie who has a really good voice was scheduled to play this night but events seemed to conspire against it. I would like her to know that we all know how much she looked forward to doing a song and undoubtedly she had to be bummed for whatever reason she didnt play. On the other hand the piece that Leslie did in the form of Wally's moment was simply perhaps the most moving performance of the evening. Her place in this event will forever be. We will have other Jonifests but we will never have a moment such as this one. Many thanks, Leslie. Before I go to the list I want to mention one or two more things. It is in the tradition of showbiz that where you are placed is almost as important as what you play. Like Diana Krall following Elton John. Good luck. She wouldn't have looked good if she had played in her birthday suit. I take that back. Anyway, as this night unfolded and performer after performer blew us all away I began to think about our two remaining listmembers who had yet to play, Lahm and Brian. After the Marsalis band did their positively incendiary set followed by Danzig & Whooleys phenomenal songs, and then the "woman from mars" (Little Queenie) we were all totally wiped out and I asked Michael what on earth David and Brian could possibly do to top what had gone down. We both shook our heads. JMDL you should be very proud. Lahm the plucky New Yawka borrowed Marsalis band and did an incredible set. By the time he finished all of us JMDLers had moved to the middle section on the floor and I must say I felt really sorry for Brian. How could he possibly now follow after seven hours all this music. This was totally unfair I thought. Well, Brian with his Strat and a drummer and bass did a version of Black Crow for the fricken ages. Sorry but you can keep Richard Thompsons version from the TNT show, Im down with Brian's take. I am absolutely serious. It was absolutely awesome. It occurred to me that this "spirit" whatever it was (Wally ?), was staying in the house until the very end. It was continuing to bless each and every performer with the ability to stand on their own in triumph. After seven hours and great song after great song there was room for Brian to sparkel and he did. He finished with his own unique version of All I Want. Ill conclude my comments after the list. For the record with my eyes it estimated about 250-300 people in attendance. For the concert itself see part 3. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:17:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Early Joni info ps... - --- "P. Henry" wrote: > to be honest, I don't think she ever mentioned > Kelly to *anyone*... I don't know if I could say > I was among Joni's 'very closest friends' but we > *were* close... I say this because we spent many > hours together and she did share many very > personal things with me that one would typically > only discuss with a trusted amigo. > in retrospect, not having even known about it, > it explains a lot... the long silences... the > barely concealed sorrow... I think she really > went through hell about it and my feeling is she > probably literally *couldn't* talk about it... > without 'bustin' up'. > Pat, you've just given us a glimpse of Joni reality, expressed in simple, but such eloquent, terms. I swear to God, reading this, my eyes are misting over, there's a lump in my throat and I've got goosebumps. ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:18:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: DED - --- catman wrote: > > > > > > I think he must mean me Jim. I'm a huge DED (Dog > Eat Dog) fan Better DED than Dead! Honestly, every time I see DED, I think of the "dead dog" trick we used to do with our dog! ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:18:08 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Marcels take: Pazfest: Night of Nights part 3 Sorry I couldn't fit this into one post. The Concert For the Ruth Paz Foundation: A Tribute to Joni Mitchell Victor: Free Man in Paris Always hard to be the first on but Victor has a good voice and he pulled it off Catgirl: Coyote Played her best number of the weekend with a clear voice. Steve Polifka: Two Grey Rooms & Man From Mars Did an excellent job with complex songs. Has a really good voice and is a polished pianist. Marcel Deste: Woodstock Distraught from the failure of Fed- Ex to deliver my stage costume on time which was a pair of crinkly orange parachute pants from the KD lang collection, I went on anyway in my street clothes. For some reason, while on stage I had this inexplicable overwhelming urge to take my shoes off. Claudia: Conversation Claud sounded great with the drum box adding to the fullness of the sound. The audience went crazy. Michael Paz: Just like this train/ Harry's House/ Amelia/ Hejira/ Chinese Cafe Love Puts on a New face That velvetty voice...it was great to see Michael after all his work get to do a real set. This was his night and he did a great treatment on the songs. Bob mentioned the transition from Amelia to Hejira played by the blond with the Bazouki. Hejira was really incredible.After the lonesome notes played deftly by the bazouki the bass slowly grew into prominnece along with Michaels VG-8 sound. By the time Brian Stoltz did his solo the song had already taken on a very strange beauty. Stoltz really went with this part jazz part joni sound and it blew everybody's mind. If the prior performers had managed to lift the nights music towards a higher plateau Michaels version of Hejira blew it over the top. Things this night were never the same after this song. It inspired everyone. Brian Stoltz: Help Me He did this difficult song well although it was hard to top Hejira. John Parker: I Think I Understand/ Both Sides Now Former "limo driver" according to Michael. Really really good voice and did such a beatiful version of I Think I Understand that it was amazing. Love is like the Wilderland.....he captured its haunting melody in his own style. It was great to hear this early Joni song done to perfection. Michael has the most talented limo drivers Ive ever seen. Leslie Smith: Sex Kills/ Sunny Sunday Michael introduced her as the "best voice in new Orleans". I said 'yeah, right'. She had a killer pianist and her voice is one of the best I have ever heard AND shes a gorgeous babe. What a voice. How someone like this doesnt go all the way to the top I will never know. I wanted her to just keep playing and playing. A truly monster tallent. Thank you Michael for sharing her with us. Her version of Sex Kills blew me away. Deanna Bernard: Same Situation To get up on the stage after Leslie Smith and do an accapella version of a joni song???? give me a break. BUT she DID. and it was really touching version of this song. It was almost like this is how the song needs to be done. She pulled it off somehow. Jack Neilson: Song About the Midway/ Blue Boy Ah Jack me boy, you are a treasure. All this time for two days the guy lays in the weeds telling everyone else that they are great and all the time he knows it is he who is fantastic. This was our transportation sheriff during our trip. Not one word about HIS music. Other than trying a few harmonies at various points he never played for us. This night he gets up and hes Mr.Stage Presence. Funny. he played these songs I think in a C tuning and they were just melt down versions. I will never forget his version of Blue Boy. I will defend the older Joni material against all hostile forces and Jack showed why. The poetry of those songs is too much. Betsy McGovern: Song to a Seagull Another case of how will anyone top what just happened. Betsy looks like the typical Irish crooner bangs and all. She has the clearest strongest voice and exuded experience. Played the entire song in standard tuning with literally one single hand position in different frets. Denise Marie: Blue Motel Room/ Furry Sings the Blues This lady was too much. A very cute Pixie like face and at first listen a squeeky little talking voice. How could she do blues? You had to be there. She had a blue electric guitar and a blue coctail dress and the most incredible blue shoes which she claims have "magic" in them. With all this Blue going down I wasnt suprised to hear her do "blue motel room". I never have liked this song a whole lot, which is Jonis not so cryptic whine-vent to a boy friend, but she did a great job anyway then topped it off with a killer version of Furry Sings the blues. I would have never guessed that the squeeky voice I heard could actually do this song but it just smoked. John Rankin: Peoples Parties/ Big Yellow Taxi (instrumental) This guy looked like he stepped off the golf course. Tall with a deep rich baritone voice. he had the guitar of the year. I understand it is handmade but it has the most unbelieveable sound processor in it and it produced an unbelieveable sound that even when he made a couple fingering moves that didnt get all the way home made even his mistakes sound like extra base hits. That guitar is fabulous. His voice was as well. Susan Cowsill & Robert Mache: The Last Time I saw Richard/ Chelsea Morning The best way to describe Susan Cowsill is to ask if you have ever seen a Robin Hood movie. her duds were straight out of the villagers motif. Not exactly an Armani outfit but at least she kept her shoes on. Her voice on the other hand was magnifique. She chose to hand carry the Lyrics to 'Richard" and read them while she sang and you could tell that she hadnt practiced the song a whole lot but with her great tallent she did a great job. At the end she made the most poignant comment of the night. "Its one thing to like Jonis music but it's an entirely different thing to try to SING one of her songs". What a great statement. The words look easy and simple but the way they are fit into the melody and the timing is very often so difficult that right in the middle of the song you become unsure exactly how you need to breathe and get your voice where it needs to get to. Candace Cox w/ Robert Mache: For Free This was everybody's sweetheart. Looks like one of those models on the cover of 17 magazine. Had a kind of Edie Brickell look and feel. This was a great great version of For Free. They used a slow pause filled timing that sounded fantastic. The guitar player did excellent fills and chord transitions that just knocked everyone out. Kim Carson: You Turn Me On Im A Radio Another super voice and a performer who you can tell is out there working every night. Polished to the max, great teeth and smile, who if she could find the right song would be a big star. My candidate for the late career hit that finally makes her famous. Kim Prevost w/ Bill Salley: Woodstock/ Both Sides Now This is where it got very interesting. Bill Salley is a virtuoso jazz guitarist. Kim is a tall black lady whose singing reminded me of Dinah Washington. Salleys Mickey Bakeresque chording took the basic melody lines to uncharted waters. Her voice was smoothe as silk. Beth Patterson: Ladies of the Canyon Return of the bazouki player. Shes a stunning blond to begin with and plays an unusual instrument besides. The way she did this song is maybe the way the song should actually be played. The bazouki adds this raw energy and unique melodic sound. She has a fantastic alto voice and her version of this song just kicked all our colective arses. Vic Saul: Night Ride Home Just when you think you have heard it all which is where we were all getting by this time, Michael announces that the next player is someone he has never heard before. Not only that but the guy is wearing short shorts and an Eagles T-shirt. Like he BETTER be good. Well he was beyond that. hes from Birmingham England and was just up from cutting an album in Nashville. I spoke with him in the dressing room and he had been told about this gig and decided to come since he loved Jonis music. He had a wonderful unique style with his right hand placing a soft thumping rhythm track to his chording and vocal. He did an amazing version of this great song. What a treat this was. Thank you UK. Jason Marsalis Band: In France They Kiss On Mainstreet/ Edith & The Kingpin Shades of Scarlett Conquering/ Dreamland Michael begins his intro buy warning us all to "hold onto your hats". It was frankly hard for me to imagine that because what we had seen so far can only be described as hard to believe. His band consisted of all incredible musicians. The pianist was incredible. The horn players were monsters. My favorite was Shades of Scarlett, it was just awesome. For their last number jason announced that "While Joni does this song with a Brazilian beat we not gonna do that. We gonna get down in N'awlins". Dreamland is another song I can take or leave but not Jasons version. That was a true tour de force. Completely off the richter scale. He was so on that I couldnt resist and I had to get a better look so I went up to the balcony and went over to the side just to watch his solo. At one point hes twirling both sticks like a baton in outstretched arms with each stick alternately hitting the drums and then the cymbals. His foot chops are flawless and you can tell he's a genetic musical mutant. In fact Ill have to check my Bible because I think in Genesis the Lord said on the 8th day Ill create the Marsalis Clan and on the 9th day it will be the Nevilles. Kevin Danzig & Cat Whooley: The Priest/ Trouble Child OK. Now how do you possibly follow THAT. I said to Michael. he shook his head. But like I said there was this mysterious spirit in the place this night. It insured that each and every musician would shine and sparkle to the heavens. Cat plays mandolin and they did this version of The Priest that just knocked me out. The vocal harmonies were very special. While it was impossible to forget the Marsalis trip to the edge of space the song enjoyed its own place. Trouble child was an equally riveting version. Leigh "Little Queenie" Harris: Dreamland/ Goodbye Pork Pie Hat/ Twisted K.D. Lang has met her match. Queenie is one of those cultural icons that inhabit the music Business. An absolutely unstoppable voice and so much stage presence that I sit in total wonder of how this person ever developed into what Im seeing. You cant invent someone like this they have to create themselves. About an hour earlier I was standing by this pole watching the perfortmances in wonder and I get this tap on the shoulder. I turn and standing about 5 feet tall with this burr hair do in a pink windbreaker and black short shorts and the torso of a frog. Like what on earth is this. She proceeds to tell me how much she liked my performance that I was on stage when she first got there and she really liked what I had said and the song I did and loved my voice. I looked down at this person and wondered if she was really talking to me. At that time I thanked her sincerely but had no idea who she was. After I saw who she was I felt honored to have recieved such a nice compliment from her. Hard to describe her act. She has the ability to veer off into all kinds of unexpected vocal histrionics and at the same time pose and take a hit on her glass of tequila. A real master.Her ultimate move was to turn around and in her short shorts slowly bend over to pick up her drink and we all lost it completely it was so vaudvillian. Her pianist is also a complete monster. Just awesome. Her versions of Pork Pie Hat and Twisted were one of a kind modern art pieces. I thought of Wally Kairez and how he would probably by now be hunching the nearest balcony pole hearing this. Little Queenie was the living end. You HAD to be there. David Lahm: Four Songs For about the hundreth time I said "how do you top THAT'. Well David more than held his own he brought the Marsalis band back on stage and added a tenor horn player who went ozone on us. The pyrotechnics of these arrangements were stunning. For the last song it began with a bass solo that went into the twilight zone and then with Davids (I dont know) quasi honky tonk style (only way I can describe it) chord overlay the counterpoint timing of it all was just incredible. The two horn players each going off on their own at the same time was to create the classic jazz moment. Pure etherial sensory overload then relief. I got to converse with David during the three days and meeting him was special. hard to beleive he is actually part of our JMDL community. Brian Thomas: Black Crow/ Little Green/ All I want In that I mentioned Brians performance in the prior section I wont repeat it now but I want to say one thing. I actually didnt expect him to actually play. This was after 6 1/2 hours of incredible music (one) and (two) how do you follow such monster pure jazz with fricken rock. I deemed it a suicide mission. But like the quitessential pro that he is Brian with thanks to his own style which is in the jazz -mode in some ways he just smoked on Black Crow. I was so thrilled at how good his performance was that I found myself looking skyward now certaiun that this mystical spirit had not yet left the house. It was still here, still working, still blessing us to the very end with incredible performances. You should all be proud of all the members who played. Brian deserved the Joni medal of honor for pulling this one off. props to his musicians as well. I feel compelled to add this following musical item of note. Virtually not one performer played their Joni song(s) note for note off the record. Many were in standard tunings. My concluding remarks are in part 4. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #306 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?