From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #288 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Saturday, May 27 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 288 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Pat and Joni [dave fairall / beth miller ] DJRD [dave fairall / beth miller ] Re: Joni Millionaire [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] Subject: Re: Colin's Fascist Statement [Howard Motyl ] Re: Jim's Fascist Statement ["Alan Lorimer" ] Re: Pigeon-holing Joni [catman ] Colin's Fascist Statement ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Robert Christgau's BSN review in Village Voice ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: HUH? NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Not getting it [Vince Lavieri ] Jim's post [catman ] Re: The Jungle Line ["Jamie Zubairi" ] RLJ story ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Washington Post concert review [Deb Messling ] Re: Atlanta mystery man ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: Colin's Fascist Statement NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: Jim's post NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: The Jungle Line ["Alan Lorimer" ] New listers and various items [MP123A321@aol.com] Re: Joni's "worst" songs [jw1327@rcn.com] Re: The Jungle Line [B Merrill ] Re: Jim's post (NJC) [AngelinoCoyote@aol.com] re: Memorial Day and Fascism ["Duane Corpis" ] Re: Joni in the Detroit News ["cassy" ] Re: Millenium Dome etc. (SJC) ["Australian Seashells" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #213 ["Frederick Freeman" ] NJC, guitar noises and misquotes ["James O. Phillips" ] Shadows and Lights ["James O. Phillips" ] Here's to You question ["James O. Phillips" ] Re: the "mystery" of Hissing ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: the "mystery" of Hissing ["Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Pat and Joni There's no denying that Pat Metheny is one of the most important guitar players ever, and one of the few who've embraced the rock and jazz idiom, and established a distinctive sound and style to the extent that you can literally hear one note and know it's him. There are a number of "jazz" artists who have been able to achieve this.....Michael Brecker, David Sanborn, Wayne Shorter to name a few. The fact that his experience with Joni on the Shadows and Light tour was less then positive is not entirely hard to believe. That tour was plagued by indecisiveness due to Jaco's personal issues, and Pat was led to believe he would replace Jaco as musical director at the last minute. When Jaco finally posted, that responsibility was lifted from Pat' s shoulders, however I'm sure the dynamic of that touring group was irreversibly disturbed. This stress no doubt translated to Joni, and in a conversation I had with Michael Brecker he alluded to remembering the tour as not the most cohesive grouping, despite the fact that all parties has enormous mutual respect for each other. We are left with Shadows and Light, which I believe will endure as a milestone recording for many generations. I'd love to see Joni work with Robben Ford or Pat Metheny again, as she brought out the best in both of them. Dave F. Baltimore ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 03:29:22 -0500 From: dave fairall / beth miller Subject: DJRD Patricia, Your post really hit home, and touched on that delicate and controversial gray area, in which protocol dictates that we, defined as the public, define music, a topic Joni has harped on and debated for literally generations. Bottom line is that DJRD, more then any other Joni album from that period, defies categorization, and to this day remains an example of music that refuses to be "pigeonholed", as folk, rock, world beat, jazz etc. It's JONI MITCHELL, and a glorious example of why we are all spending lots of time discussing and paying attention to this digest. DF Baltimore ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 00:21:52 -0700 (PDT) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: Re: Joni Millionaire Welcome back to the list Susan! So, first question, will you be the JMDL's resident artist attending Joni's Mendel exhibit opening in S'toon? ;-) I'd love an artist to walk through her works with me on Saturday or Sunday when it's not quite so jammed with people. ;-) Cheers, Penny :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Grace dies when it becomes us versus them......Philip Yancey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 02:40:33 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Subject: Re: Colin's Fascist Statement >so take a deep cleansing breath. and if that doesn't work, take it off list >and duke it out in private. Amen, sister brother ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 06:53:35 +1000 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: The Jungle Line Put your CD player on repeat, turn up the volume and listen! "The Jungle Line" is absolutely stunning. Listen to the incredible energy of the drummers, it works. Look at the cover of the album. Am I the only one who can thinks the city looks like it's growing out of the Jungle? Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 06:46:08 +1000 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Jim's Fascist Statement After accusing Colin of being a fascist, Jim asks: >Other opinions? In my opinion, Jim, *you* should apologise for making such a hateful statement. I know that Colin can look after himself, and apparently has chosen to ignore this anyway, but you have offended the majority of members of this list. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:00:02 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Pigeon-holing Joni Or is Joni > Mitchell her own genre? I would say so. maybe it could be called avant garde, if I understand that term correctly. > > Patricia O'Connor > p.a.oconnor@att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 06:10:50 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: Colin's Fascist Statement jim, JIM! come to your senses. this whole thing is beneath you, and more importantly, colin doesn't deserve it. i've always liked your kind of humor, which you may be surprised to know is not unlike colin's. you're a valuable list member, and so is colin. i wish you would bury the hatchet. best, wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 06:18:21 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Robert Christgau's BSN review in Village Voice the village voice staff must be the greatest bunch of mitchell haters on earth. if you want to have the laugh of you lives, please read village voice perry meisel's review of hejira on page 79 of the joni mitchell companion. lacan would have been baffled. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:21:31 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colin's Fascist Statement i wish > you would bury the hatchet. but not in me > best, > wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 06:33:54 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: HUH? NJC pat reasoned: >it is not logical to tell a bunch of Joni fanatics that you think they should allow people to trample her good name a bunch of joni fanatics? glory! is that what we are? wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 05:52:12 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Not getting it RickieLee1@aol.com wrote, wisely: > so take a deep cleansing breath. and if that doesn't work, take it off > list > and duke it out in private. I joined the JMDL so I would be aware of upcoming tours. It has worked. I also became aware of the new album. It was worth it. I also became aware of this incredible community. I was happy. In the recent days passed, when we should be at our peak of happiness with Joni touring and new recording sessions to come, with the tribute and the other tv appearances, it has gotten somehow poison in here. I imagine new listers are baffled and wondering what they got into. I personally am sick of the squabbling in here. I am leaving for Chicago in a few hours and then Detroit. Spending lost of money on tickets, gas, auto repairs to make sure I can get both places, plus whatever trinkets I choose to buy and pre and post concert activities in two cities. I don't need the back and forth stuff that has been taking place. I posted recently the words of Joni's "Be Cool." I guess my point was not made. I could post the words of her I Corinthians 13, but that might fail to do it too. I might even point to the original text of 1 Corinthians 13: If I have not love, I am an empty clanging bell, but that would fail to do it, I am sure. Marcel and I have gotten into it in the past, the first time in the JMDL, and we got bad in the spring on 1999. We then took a break from each other and were able to become friends. This year when we disagreed on something we took it off the list entirely and when it got heated, we stopped so that we could save our friendship. It works, people, sometimes to just shut up - and that included me, and that includes you, perhaps, eh? Then when time passes you can be friends again. I am leaving in a few hours. I am going to come home to -- between the JMDL, my work connected legal forum, my church emails -- probably over 1,000 emails. If when I come come home I have to wade through any more of this nasty bullshit I will quit the JMDL. I don't need it. This is to add joy to my life and have worthwhile, even controversial discussions, but the whole name calling, labeling thing - just shut up. There is enough of that in the law and in the church. I don't need it in my Joni life. Shut up (I did, it works). Take it off list (I did, it works). Or cause people to quit the list (I will, and that will work too). Those are the options. Read again Joni's Be Cool and her 1 Corinthians 13 and if you still don't get it, I will get off the JMDL and find a place where people get it. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:26:38 +0100 From: catman Subject: Jim's post When i first joined this list I was in a manic phase and i know I pissed a lot of people off with my incessant posting. Jim's Oprah Outed response to me was hurtful, not because i thought it was truthful but because i don't understand why someone would write a mean post like that out of the blue. It also made me feel he thought I was really stupid. then there was the Our lady thread which seemed to confirm my feelings about his feeling of intellectual superiority. that was sorted, i thought. My response to what he and Kakki wrote was not designed to hurt either of them. when the inner circle and blame posts started appearing, i got angry. I sent a post where my anger was obvious. the inner circle posts kept coming so i used humour instead. However,none of us know what is going on in people's lives behind the scenes. sometimes people lash out at bystanders when they are hurtiing. perhaps this is what is going on for Jim. perhaps not. perhaps he really does think i am stupid and a fascist. Either way it doesn't really matter. i cannot control what he or anyone else thinks. the fascist thing didn't upset me tho it did surprise me. whatever it is , it is best forgotten about. Jims buttons got pressed big time. i don't know why but i am not going to hold his reaction against him. we all react in ways that maybe even we don't understand. I have re written this several times and am still not sure if i should send it. My intention is to still the water not stir it up again. I felt the need to write because I feel badly for Jim and it is difficult to know how to express that without sounding patronising. This list is the most thought provoking, interesting, growth inducing, loving, supportive, antagonising, livley,funny , human thing I have ever come across. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:16:50 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Re: The Jungle Line And try DANCING to it! Just so much energy. I sometimes use it as a perk me up before a performance. I used to use my headphones but the rest of the cast just look shocked by the end of it until I started to play it out loud. This was especially useful in the last show I was in as the last part was set in Africa and was about the magic of dancing. To loosen our bodies and get us in that 'African' frame of mind (like I look anything like an African dancer!) that song got me there. But on a writing level, I love that line: 'It slithers away on brass like mouthpiece spit'. But the whole song is just so dense lyrically that if you take any segment from it, you'll find about 4-5 great descriptive passages that defy any songwriter to better. Imagine reading it out like poetry. > Am I the only one > who can thinks the city looks like it's growing out of the Jungle? No, Alan, you're not! But to me it's like The Jungle- The Prairies - Central Park - New York - LA (round the corner). BTW, is that really a sketch of Joni's house? Jamie Zoob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:37:09 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: RLJ story I love that story that Rickie Lee tells about Bonnie Raitt and Bette Midler: Rickie and Bonnie were sharing a lift one day and Rickie was telling Bonnie about the last time that her and Bette met. Rickie met Bette Midler at some party and apparently Bette's breasts were looking really pretty sculptural with the dress she had on and Rickie just went up to her and just cupped one of them in her hand because she felt drawn to do it. Bette was kinda shocked but they had a laugh. Bonnie said,' What like this?' and cupped one of rickie's breasts and they had a giggle. Rickie adds in this interview that Rickie and Bonnie share the same birthdate, and Joni's is a coupla days before. She can just imagine Joni going up to her in an attempt to do the same thing but stooping just in time to take a long drag of her cigarette. Jamie Zoob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 06:48:48 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: Washington Post concert review Joni's New Side Now Richard Harrington, May 27 Where does a '60s singer-songwriter turn for inspiration after exhausting her own muse over the course of three decades? For Joni Mitchell, the answer is to explore the rich catalogue of classic popular songs that dominated American music from the late '30s to the early '50s. They are the core of her new album, "Both Sides Now," and they were the heart of Mitchell's concert Thursday night at Merriweather Post Pavilion.

At the start, Mitchell promised "a musical adventure through romance." She delivered a program of cinematic proportions, underscored by a 70-piece orchestra whose lengthy overture--full of melancholy strains and subtle shadings--defined the emotional parameters of the material.

Mitchell, dressed in a blue satin gown, opened with the infatuated exuberance of "You're My Thrill" and ecstatic release of "At Last" before delivering the triumphant concession of "Comes Love." The latter song slyly explored the notion that when it comes to love, "nothing can be done," and Mitchell's bluesy bent notes suggested she wouldn't have it any other way.

She followed with a catalogue of the heart's inevitable aches: the sullen recognition that "You've Changed" and the dismissed entreaties, "Answer Me, My Love" and "Don't Go to Strangers," the bittersweet intoxication of Mitchell's own "A Case of You" and the false post-breakup bravado of "Don't Worry 'Bout Me." The turbulence of romance was suggested in a brilliantly sketched "Stormy Weather," while the heart's resilience powered a bouncy, irony-tinged "I Wish I Was in Love Again."

Mitchell ended the night's romantic journey with a luminous reading of her 30-year-old classic, "Both Sides Now." And as she sang the familiar lyrics--"Something's lost and something's gained from living every day"--it was clear Mitchell's hard-won perspective enriches both her own ruminations and the melancholy masterpieces she's now mastered.

After decades of unrepentant smoking, Mitchell's voice is deeper, rougher, ravaged, but she uses it to wonderful effect on the more confessional songs. There were moments when Mitchell was tentative, or rhythmically unanchored. And sometimes the orchestra overwhelmed her. But conductor Vince Mendoza's arrangements were brilliant, particularly in a closing segment of originals that ranged from Gil Evans-style brassiness ("Be Cool" and "Hejira") and art song ("Ludwig's Tune") to the reflective "For the Roses" and a sassily funkified cover of Marvin Gaye's "Trouble Man." Mitchell got a standing ovation at both ends of the concert, suggesting fans' acceptance of these new avenues of exploration. Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 07:13:39 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: Atlanta mystery man Hi, Alice. Welcome to the JMDL! Alot of the "regulars" are in New Orleans for the weekend, so you might not get a ton of responses 'til they get back. Don't be a stranger, Alice. :-) Another newbie, "Boston Jim" > This is my first post to the list after lurking around in the shadows for > quite a few months. (snip) > > Alice from Asheville, NC > > P.S. This list is great. I'm happy to be a part of it, even if mine has > been a very quiet part thus far. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 07:25:00 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Colin's Fascist Statement NJC I've known both Jim and Colin for quite a while and am incredibly fond of both. Indeed, I'm betrothed to Colin for the future. I spent one very memorable weekend with Jim back at the very first JoniFest a couple of years back and got to know him as we chatted through the Fest and during our drive out to Falling Waters. And over my list tenure, I've spent a good bit of time with off-list communications with the both of them. Thus, I know in my heart of hearts and from constant example to me, that both Colin and Jim are special people to be treasured and trusted. And now this rip in the fabric. As Rick and others pointed out, email is a dangerous forum. Even as I type this out, I've been carrying on my own inner quandary about an email that I sent to a dear friend of mine. I included a "P.S." that made a joke about "yes, this is how it is done." I was teasing about my gardening escapades but later realized that they could have taken it the wrong way and are probably rolling their eyes right now thinking what a sanctimonious b**** I can be. And it amazing me how I have been agonizing over it. Not enough to curdle anyone's milk, but that churning is definitely there. Even between the best and most intimate of friends, words without facial expressions or vocal tones or gesticulations can be very, very tricky and prone to emotional illusions. Make no mistake about it: I have known Colin through thick and thin and there is no way this man is a fascist. I have also known Jim, care about him deeply and there is no way he is a jerk. I've known e-mail for 5 years now and blame much on that slippery, ambiguous forum. Colin and Jim, I love you both. I support you both. And I know that our list does as well. Deep breathes are in order here. Proceed with understanding and peace my dear friends. love to all, Mary Grace ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 07:39:08 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Jim's post NJC In a message dated 5/27/00 3:30:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << I have re written this several times and am still not sure if i should send it. My intention is to still the water not stir it up again. I felt the need to write because I feel badly for Jim and it is difficult to know how to express that without sounding patronising. >> Colin, I absolutely and truly admire this post. God and Goddess bless you. Mary Grace ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 09:47:27 +1000 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: The Jungle Line Dancing to it??? Zoob must be full of energy :-) And for those listers who don't think it fits into HOSL, isn't Edith And The Kingpin continuing on with a Jungle theme if you consider "The Kingpin" as the Predator and Edith as the Prey? Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 08:07:09 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: New listers and various items Ok…this is my once every 6 months post, as usual, with very little Joni content. A few posts were of interest to me, usually by new listers, but I have been way behind on reading digests. Also it seems to me is a little dicey out there in JMDL land, although I've seen worse on the list. When I first joined the list, I felt like people ignored or did not respond to my posts. I was mostly into collecting. It turned out that there was a recent or upcoming Joni release and a lot of posting. I believe it is that situation now. Still, I get invaluable info from here and occasionally offer something, mostly off list. Peg and Randy posted about The Roches and Fripp. I have posted several times and never found any one interested in them. I would love to trade with any Roches fans if there are any of you with tapes out there. Looking for Soundstage performance from PBS - video- PLEASE! I like Another World - Face Down in Folk City. No Trespassing - a must if you can find the EP. About Pretenders 2000 Miles lyrics, there is a premiere Pretenders web site, with lyrics, check your search engines. It has the best collectible pictures,records , memorabilia pages I have ever seen documented on the web. Wally picked some excellent songs for a send off. I also have the LP - World Of Joni Mitchell - Australian release - it is quite a nice pressing although nothing rare but the cover. And last but not least…I love Tea Leaf Prophecy ....and Talk To Me is about the only the song I listen to on DJRD, .....OK.....maybe Cotton Ave.....and Off Night ...NO Paprika ......please Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 08:21:50 -0400 From: jw1327@rcn.com Subject: Re: Joni's "worst" songs Ok- time for me to weigh in with my 2 cents: First of all, I won't refer to these as her "worst songs"- not being a musician (in the technical and literal sense) I am not qualified to judge their musical merit. I will, however, call them the Joni songs I like the least (and almost always skip over when playing the respective CD): SO...., here is my list of least favorite Joni songs (Note- not all of which were written by Joni!- I'll try to list them in album order) 1. Roses Blue 2. The Fiddle and the Drum 3. The Priest 4. Paprika Plains (except the sung beginning and end- forbidding jazz! The drums at the end are a miracle of recording! Still gives me goosebumps! That long, pretentious, orchestral middle however...) 5. Underneath the Streetlight 6. Smokin' (Empty, Try Another) 7. Ethiopia 8. Lakota 9. The Beat of Black Wings 10. The Reoccurring Dream 11. Lead Balloon 12. My Best To You So, our Joan is not infallible- and these after all represent one man's opinion. I will say, however, that Joni's "worst" songs are far better than most of what is considered good these days (you pick 'em- any of the songs played on the radio- doesn't much matter-) And a brief PS- I saw Joni at the 5/22 show at MSG in NYC- brilliant! Wonderful! A good crowd! But the one musical misstep I feel she made was that "Ludwig's Tune" thing- absolutely did not work- just sounded weird- Ta! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 08:39:38 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: The Jungle Line The surprising shift from "In France" to the "Jungle Line" is fully intended. Joni is informing us that we've left the musical style and lyric content of "Court & Spark" (which "In France" sustains) behind us. My reservations (and I'm not sure on this one...) would begin with the Moog. Is that the right sonority? The question is more pressing with Shadows and Light: Would that have sounded better if she had used a Hammond or a bona fide church organ instead of the thin sound of the Farfisa? I think so. BTW, Herzog uses that same rhythm track, the drummers of Burundi, on the soundtrack for "Aguirre, the Wrath of God" when they're toodling down the river. (Therefore: he's mixing up his continents.) >"The Jungle Line" is absolutely stunning. Listen to the incredible energy of >the drummers, it works. Look at the cover of the album. Am I the only one >who can thinks the city looks like it's growing out of the Jungle? >Alan Lorimer >Hawley Beach >Tasmania Maybe you see that from your Asian perspective, where cities do grow out of jungles. Since the city in question is Joni's LA (right?), the jungle is much farther away-- or else strictly metaphorical. In any event there is a nice metaphorical density to the hissing snake: drugs, jungle.... suburban lawn sprinklers. Bruce M ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 08:47:45 EDT From: AngelinoCoyote@aol.com Subject: Re: Jim's post (NJC) In a message dated 5/27/00 3:30:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << I have re written this several times and am still not sure if i should send it. My intention is to still the water not stir it up again. I felt the need to write because I feel badly for Jim and it is difficult to know how to express that without sounding patronising. >> You are one classy guy, Colin. I am glad you wrote this and decided to post it to the list. This was a lovely, sentimental way to handle this situation. Like my parents taught me, "Always take the high road in difficult situations." I have been very concerned what the newbies would think of all these "rare" discussions. For those of you out there, reading in silence and disbelief, I have been on this list for six months and completely agree with Colin that: >>This list is the most thought provoking, interesting, growth inducing, loving, supportive, antagonising, livley,funny , human thing I have ever come across.<< No regrets, Coyote (Rick) Casa Alegre Hollywood, California I'll be dancin' on a pony keg. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 08:48:48 -0500 From: "Duane Corpis" Subject: re: Memorial Day and Fascism I'll respond to Jim's accusation that Colin's joke was fascist below. But first, the only thing that I've seen that's potentially fascist on this list has been the memorial day quote sent to the list, and I don't mean this as an attack on the person who sent it (I honestly don't remember who did). But I find it really problematic when military boosterism uses this kind of rhetoric: >So, what IS a veteran? ***text cut*** >He is the old guy bagging groceries at the supermarket - palsied now and >aggravatingly slow - who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who wishes >all day long that his wife were still alive to hold him when the nightmares >come. ***text cut*** >He is a soldier and a savior and a sword against the darkness, and he is >nothing more than the finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the finest, >greatest nation ever known. First of all, referring to Nazi death camps this way is a cheap ploy to make us feel good about our use of world-wide military power since World War II, while obscuring the fact that the United States did relatively little when it learned of atrocities against Jews to assist them to escape Germany and Europe. No matter how heart wrenching the quote above seems, it does a great deal to obscure U.S. complicity in permitting the Holocaust to happen. Does that lessen the horror and heroism of the individuals who liberated the concentration camps? Not necessarily, but it should put into perspective the final part of the quote: that the solider is a testimony to the finest, greatest nation ever known. This kind of historical amnesia is one of the ways that political ideologies built on nationalism, xenophobia, and military pride (like fascism) take root within a country. The more we forget about our nation's past, the more likely we are to glorify our nation without having the tools to criticize it. The more we forget, for instance, that Henry Ford was an anti-semite and a fascist, and that many U.S. citizens supported fascism as a political ideology, the less we understand about the historical conditions that permit us to self-righteously proclaim that this is the "finest, greatest nation ever known." I am an army brat, and my father is a proud veteran who served in Korea and Vietnam. However, my father is the first to consider Memorial Day a time to remember, not just the valor of the American soldier, but the idiocy of American military policy, the thousands who have died in needless military conflicts because that's how we bully the rest of the world. It's a day to remember our mistakes as well as our achievements. It should NOT be a day to glory in the horrors of war or to exalt the profession of the soldier, but to recognize that U.S. history is built on the reality of tanks, guns, bombs, and dead bodies as well as on the noble ideals of democracy, freedom, and equality. Fascists (then and now) memorialize without remembering. It is our political responsibility in a democratic society to do both. As far as whether Collin is a fascist? Jim suggested that we replace "inner circle" with Jews and then suddenly we have a disconcerting fascist statement. Well, that's true. But we could play the substitution game forever: substitute "inner circle" with: greedy capitalists cockroaches people who speed in school zones rude waiters in-laws union-busters Nothing in Colin's post or any previous posts suggests that the substitution of "inner circle" with "Jew" is a logical one. And since you, Jim, started this whole "inner circle" thread (as a very funny, ironic joke), Colin's response seems to me an equally funny, ironic twist to your initial post on the matter. In that sense, what I see is your jealousy and bitterness that Colin has one-up'ed you. Inner circles and cabals are always rooted out in the movies by some person who either blackmails or kills the members of the secret cabal. By starting the whole joke that you and others are among the "inner circle," you should have known that at some point someone was going to raise the possibility of a coup d'etat. Is that fascist? No, it's funny. It seems to me that since Wally passed away (peace to his soul), there has been a real moral vacuum on this list, with ever more ugliness. So maybe what we need is a coup d'etat, a revolution, a change of regime. Not a revolution like the one enacted by Robespierre, the kind that killed half of France. But a revolution in attitude, a coup that wipes clean the nastiness that seems to have gotten entrenched in this list. Peace, Duane ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 09:11:24 -0400 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: Joni in the Detroit News David asked: >>>Hmmm....might that be the source of the line "I had a king in a tenement castle"?<<< I suspected the same thing when I read those words David. The Cass Corridor is basically a slum these days, although it's an area that is becoming popular for renovations. It would have been considered a "tenement" even then and figured prominently in the 1967 Detroit riots (the Detroit riots coincide time-wise with Joni living there.) Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:10:33 +0800 From: "Australian Seashells" Subject: Re: Millenium Dome etc. (SJC) Hi listers! I just got back from 5 weeks in Europe and haven't kept up with digests. Skimmed through though - so much is happening! I congratulate everyone who was able/is going to be able to see Joni live on their good luck! Would like to share this with you (Sorry if you discussed the Dome already, I missed it): I spent a day at the Dome in London, being a Gabriel fan, this was a must. For those who don't know, there are perfomances 3 times a day in the Dome central arena until the end of this year, music recorded by PG (a long list of great musicians on the tracks, i.e. Elizabeth Fraser, Tony Levin, Paul Buchanan, Richie Havens, Alison Goldfrapp, Manu Katche, etc.). Involved in the creation (which includes themes of past, present & future with loads of aereal displays, acrobats flying through the air and on stilts, etc) were also: Mark Fisher (director), Micha Bergese (art), and Patrick Woodroffe (lighting), etc... The Dome also sports "Zones", much like the "rides" at Disneyland, where you can experience their creator's ideas about things like work, play, learning, money, faith, and so on... There's a ride that shows the earth seen from space and the eyes of aliens, neat for kids. There's a big emphasis on environmental issues and the future we're (mankind) heading into with so many problems still unsolved. And there's all sorts of other stuff happening besides. I know that the whole project copped a lot of rap for the immense cost - particularly in Britain it's about as unpopular as anything can possibly get. Bearing that in mind, I guess whether you'll enjoy the experience really depends on your attitude on the day - I had a fantastic time and went away with a very positive feeling of hope - how almost anything is achievable if you only make the effort. A very thought-provoking day for sure. I warmly recommend a visit, if anyone happens to go to London this year. I went on a Saturday, which was fairly crowded with families. The place emptied considerably after 3 PM though and was open until 11PM. Admission is reduced to 10 Pounds after 4PM. Did any of you already go and what did you think? Here's a small anecdote in regard to Joni-collaborations: In 1987 I happened to sit on the deck of a ferry headed for Helsinki, together with a few Peter Gabriel roadies and techies on their way to the next gig on the European PG tour. They were talking about Joni's recent collaboration with Peter due to appear on her upcoming album, planned for 1988. I almost fell off my chair with delight at this news, since both artists were my favourites at the time. So of course I asked Dave Bottrill what it was like to work with Joni. At the time he was (I think) a technical assistant in the newly-built RealWorld Studios and involved with the recording of "My Secret Place". He squatted on the deck with his newly shaved head turned up at me Birdy-fashion, grinned and wouldn't say very much at all apart from the fact that he liked Joni's music. What came across from the others though was that apparently everyone concerned felt very much in awe and honoured to work with Joni - and that they took great care to treat her well. I knew about Pat Metheny supposedly being very unhappy during his job on the Shadows & Light tour. I think he mentioned the fact with great rancour but without explaining the whys and whats, in an interview shortly after the tour 1980 in one of the guitar mags. Nobody is perfect and the fact that those two didn't get along in those particular circumstances doesn't make either a bitch.. I find it in fact quite funny to see illustrated without a doubt that genius doesn't mean/make perfect human beings. That genius wouldn't necessarily help anyone to get along with sombody else. Or what do you think? Simone NP: "Time Of The Turning" - OVO The Millenium Show - Cd ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:57:39 -0400 From: B Merrill Subject: Re: the "mystery" of Hissing I asked: >>Has the extent to which Hissing is a "total work...., >> conceived graphically, musically, lyrically and accidentally" been laid >> out, somewhere? (Definitively, or conjecturally.) >Well yes, I would say it definitively has been, on an album called The >Hissing of Summer Lawns. Sorry to correct you, Patricia, but the extent to which Hissing is a "total work" is not laid out on Hissing. Joni announces explicitly that she is NOT "unravelling" this matter, not revealing the "mystery" of Hissing. So my question remains: Has the "mystery" that Joni points to been "unravelled" by anyone? Is anyone aware of any extended discussion as to what the "mystery" is about? I would very much appreciate any answers to this question! >Welcome to the list; >Patricia O'Connor Thank you, Bruce merrillb@crisny.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:24:44 -0000 From: "Frederick Freeman" Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #213 > > Subject: Re: Least Favorite Joni Songs > > I definitely have to agree with Lead Balloon. This is not her finest > moment. But we can't be perfect all the time and someone may > absolutely love this one. (who would that be)? > Mike > > I LOVE Lead Balloon, its such a "Kiss My Ass" song. There is just one thing that bothers me about it. The " Le-Le-Le-Le-Lead Baloon, in the chorus". It sounds corny, and taints an otherwise brilliant tune. IMHO Frederick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:39:22 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: the "mystery" of Hissing revealing the "mystery" of Hissing. > > So my question remains: Has the "mystery" that Joni points to been > "unravelled" by anyone? Is anyone aware of any extended discussion as to > what the "mystery" is about? I would very much appreciate any answers to > this question! > Thank you, > > Bruce We have discussed Hissing pretty thoroughly in the past. Some of the best discussions come out of that album, imo, mainly because it is so daring musically and so rich lyrically. I would also say that, thematically, it is one of Joni's most cohesive albums. For me it truly is a 'whole.' And 'The Jungle Line' along with its placement in the sequencing is an integral part of that whole. It took me years to work out a theory of what Joni's intent was on THOSL. I think it has some of her most complex lyrics and you can find many ways to interpret them. As I see it, Joni painted a portrait of modern life, specifically life in 70s America's upper middle class suburbia, as something that is well-ordered & pretty on the surface but is basically a prison underneath the facade with some pretty dark places in it. On the other hand, stepping out of that prison can be a dangerous proposition. The album starts off with In France They Kiss on Main Street which shows us a young woman, questioning the values of that suburban world and longing to break free. Her wildness & youth are contrasted with the woman who is 'fading in a suburban room.' But as Joni said on another album 'There is danger....and education in living out such a reckless lifestyle.' The Jungle Line immediately establishes the sense of something sinister underneath the surface that reaches snake-like tentacles out into this seemingly safe & sanitized world 'thru i-bars & girders, through wires & pipes.' They are the same wires that Edith hears humming in the walls after that menace (in the form of the Kingpin) has snared her. Both songs illustrate how the rebel who tries to break free of the mold of 'middle class circumstance' can be seduced and ensnared by the danger that seems to be crawling across the manicured lawns, just waiting for anyone who hears its hissing to dare to pick it up. Of course, keeping to the confines of that seemingly safe world is a kind of imprisonment as Joni illustrates in the title track. Shadows & Light at the end of this record is one of Joni's most obvious illustrations of how the positive & negative aspects of life are eternally engaged in a precarious balance. In turn, finding the balance between the stifling confines of a strictly defined society and the excesses of a completely unrestricted and undisciplined lifestyle is a tricky proposition. And to me, that is what THOSL is ultimately all about. Just my 2 (or 3 or 4) cents and certainly not the last word on this amazing record, Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat May 27 14:19:31 EDT 2000 From: "James O. Phillips" Subject: NJC, guitar noises and misquotes Hey, I'm combining a couple of subjects so I don't waste space:) Anyways, in reference to the guitar squekky(sp?) noises: I sometimes deal with that problem, especially when I'm playing Big Yellow Taxi when I'm sliding up and down the neck. Something I have found helpfull (for at least me) is to have the action as low as it can go. Another trick I use for my "baby", a black Harmony Soverign which I learned to play on 9 years ago, is to string it with light ELECTRIC guitar strings. It somehow cuts down on the squeeky noises that sometimes occur. That and a last tip: Restring your guitar every now and then. I find if I start hearing noises that shouldn't be there, it's time to restring. My last subject is putting words in other people's mouths. Whoever "put" those anti-Jewish remarks in Colin's mouth should be ashamed of themself for doing so. If you had a private problem with Colin, you should have emailed him off-list instead of making a JERK of yourself on-list. Sorry to sound like the bitchy queen on the list, but I joined this list because I like all things Joni, not all things put-downs. Think about it. Happiness is the best facelift, James Phillips - ---------- Message To Spammers -- Game Over! Get spam-free email at http://www.MsgTo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 19:21:48 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC, guitar noises and misquotes "James O. Phillips" wrote: Something I have found helpfull (for at least me) is to have the action as low as it can go. me too ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:32:47 -0700 From: susan+rick Subject: Re: Not getting it Vince Lavieri posted: > Shut up (I did, it works). Take it off list (I did, it works). Or cause > people to quit the list (I will, and that will work too). Those are the > options. [snip] > Read again Joni's Be Cool and her 1 Corinthians 13 and if you still don't get > it, I will get off the JMDL and find a place where people get it. Dear Vince I for one would be sad to see you quit the list over this nonsense. I say nonsense because that's what it seems to those of us not involved in the rancorous E-MAIL exchange. I have been increasingly dismayed as the battle degenerated into absurdity but I am heartened by Colin's latest post, a really noble and heart-felt attempt to set this thing straight. This line of Colin's expresses what a lot of us feel about the JMDL: >This list is the most thought provoking, interesting, growth inducing, >loving, supportive, antagonising, lively, funny , human thing I have ever >come across. It didn't take me very long to realize that this list is not just about Joni, it's very much about the people on the list. It's a human list with all a human's strengths and weaknesses. The fact that it's un-moderated means that events take their natural (and sometimes unpleasant) course until the better side of human nature can prevail. I believe it will prevail in the end and I sure hope you stick around to see that. You're a piece of humanity (with a touch of the divine!) that I would hate to see the JMDL lose. All good things Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sat May 27 15:01:38 EDT 2000 From: "James O. Phillips" Subject: Shadows and Lights Yesterday, because of the rains, I just didn't get out walking much, so I put on Joni's Shadows and Light cd in a long time. I forgot how much I loved that album. It even reminds me of how much I LOVE the Mingus album because of the songs from the Mingus album on Shadows and Light. My favourite, however, is at the end, when Joni does a wonderful reading of the song "Woodstock" with just her and her electric guitar. It is priceless, in my humble opinion of course, and much better than that version on the Miles of Aisles album. Any other fans of Shadows and Lights out there? James - ---------- Message To Spammers -- Game Over! Get spam-free email at http://www.MsgTo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat May 27 15:13:50 EDT 2000 From: "James O. Phillips" Subject: Here's to You question Okay, I've probably reached my quota for sending for the day:) Anyways, I was wondering who originally cut Here's to you that Joni did a remake on her Taming the Tiger cd? Thanks for any information that you may have, James in Chamapaign, IL USA - ---------- Message To Spammers -- Game Over! Get spam-free email at http://www.MsgTo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 15:07:33 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: the "mystery" of Hissing Hey, Mark. :-) I really agree with your analysis of Hissing. Well said. As the person who wrote first about re-positioning "The Jungle Line," I still find that if I put it near the end, right before "Shadows And Light," the album has a better flow (for me). It doesn't seem to damage the story you eloquently summarized either, when I move it. I works for me as one-half of a two-part epilogue. I imagine Edith as the protagonist in the story the album tells. I see her as the young woman in "In France." I see her as meeting the Kingpin while out on the town with Leadfoot Melvin and the others. (I don't see the Kingpin as a diabolical character, like a gangster or a pimp or anything... just an attractive, local rich guy...a "small town big man"...who chooses to approach the beautiful young Edith rather than the "passed-over girls.") I see Edith, after beginning a relationship with the Kingpin, as a spoiled, demanding character ("Shades of Scarlett Conquering") who gets what she wants (marriage, the 'burbs, etc.), but ends up feeling imprisoned by what she got. I think of Harry and the Kingpin as being the same person, in other words. Anyway, to me, Hissing does indeed tell a story...and I think you nailed it, Mark. "Boston Jim" >(snip) >As I see it, Joni painted a > portrait of modern life, specifically life in 70s America's upper > middle class suburbia, as something that is well-ordered & pretty on > the surface but is basically a prison underneath the facade with some > pretty dark places in it. On the other hand, stepping out of that > prison can be a dangerous proposition. > > The album starts off with In France They Kiss on Main Street which > shows us a young woman, questioning the values of that suburban world > and longing to break free. Her wildness & youth are contrasted with > the woman who is 'fading in a suburban room.' > > (snip) > > Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 16:02:53 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: the "mystery" of Hissing Bruce wrote; > Sorry to correct you, Patricia, but the extent to which Hissing is a "total > work" is not laid out on Hissing. Joni announces explicitly that she is NOT > "unravelling" this matter, not revealing the "mystery" of Hissing. Joni wrote: "The whole unfolded like a mystery. It is not my intention to unravel that mystery for anyone, but rather to offer some additional clues..." The "whole" (the finished product) is not the mystery referred to here, but the way it "unfolded" (the way it was created) is the mystery which Joni didn't unravel, but to which she offered clues. Hissing IS the "total work". I agree with Mark that the analysis of Hissing has produced some of the most interesting discussions on this list, but I don't think we'll be able to unravel the mystery of it's creation, unless Joni chimes in. Mark wrote: >As I see it, Joni painted a >portrait of modern life, specifically life in 70s America's upper >middle class suburbia, as something that is well-ordered & pretty on >the surface but is basically a prison underneath the facade with some >pretty dark places in it. On the other hand, stepping out of that >prison can be a dangerous proposition. >In turn, finding the >balance between the stifling confines of a strictly defined society >and the excesses of a completely unrestricted and undisciplined >lifestyle is a tricky proposition. And to me, that is what THOSL is >ultimately all about. This is an astute observation, which can be applied to every song on the album, in addition to the songs Mark mentioned: The Boho Dance, even an unconventional lifestyle, a bohemian one can be a prison; "Like a priest with a pornographic watch, looking and longing on the sly" Don't Interrupt the Sorrow , the restrictions of the traditional "woman's place", and the conflicts resulting from travelling outside the confines of that place; "In flames our prophet witches" "Wash my guilt of Eden, wash and balance me" The diamonded collared housewife, choosing to stay in her barbed wired, ranch house prison on the title track. Harry, "Jonah in the ticking whale" imprisoned in conference rooms with "battalions of paper-mainded males". His wife "lost in House & Gardens" And the ultimate prison of our mortality in Sweet Bird; "I lay down golden in time, and woke up vanishing" Patricia O'Connor p.a.oconnor@att.net ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #288 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?