From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #272 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:joni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe JMDL Digest Monday, May 22 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 272 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- (NJC )disgruntled lurker speaks again [mr_lovesaint@webtv.net] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long (Sorry Steve!) ["Kakk] UK cub reporters ["Paul Castle" ] West Palm Beach Post - Joni Review [WirlyPearl@aol.com] Get-together in Atlanta ...(NJC) ["Paul Castle" ] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long (Sorry Steve!) [catma] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long (Sorry Steve!) [catma] NJC, BSN Tour :) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Merriweather Post questions (NJC) [Janet Hess ] Re: NJC, BSN Tour :) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] posting ["vollmarr" ] 2 for tonight ["E Zattly" ] Re: Covers Comments [philipf@tinet.ie] Another new JMDL'er! ["Bob Muller (Perception)" ] Posting (NJC) ["Bob Muller (Perception)" ] NJC:The first waffle [Chilihead2@aol.com] Both Sides Now ["vollmarr" ] UK Jonifest CD Box Set ["Raffaele Malanga" ] UK Fest Boxset ["Bob Muller (Perception)" ] Tuesday night show in NYC [Janene Otten ] repeat of a thread (definitely njc) [Anne Sandstrom ] ludwig's tune [Les Irvin ] Re: Campbell/Webb NJC [Jerry Notaro ] Re: ludwig's tune [catman ] DED on CD ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long [catman ] Re: DED on CD (SJC) ["James L. Leonard" ] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long ["Kakki" ] Re: Campbell/Webb NJC [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: DED on CD ["Ken (slarty)" ] Re: ludwig's tune [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Come in from the Cold VHS tape in mint unsealed condition [dennis.leong@m] Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long [Don Rowe ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 03:50:37 -0400 (EDT) From: mr_lovesaint@webtv.net Subject: (NJC )disgruntled lurker speaks again arrrrghhhh. looks like im bound to lurking. (sniff, sniff) Jess ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 00:46:10 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long (Sorry Steve!) >For what ever reason, maybe vanity, if I take hours and hours with a post, i sort of look to see if >anyone reacted and it just knocks me out how much you loved it. It's especially >nice after this day today with cindy! It was a Hall of Famer, Jim. In fact, it may just be *the* Hall of Famer. I'm so sorry to hear about the day with Cindy. Hopefully the long weekend with your tribal brothers and sisters coming up in Nawlins will help a little. :-) > Well, yeah! I'm just shocked that someone would submit SHIT like "I saw joni tonight and i was >disappointed" to an artist's web page. If I were jj, it would feel awful!!! Having to put up stuff like that >when he's in it to exhalt her. It reads to me, almost like hate mail. And lots of people did > that. These are people who, at one point or another, loved her! Jim J. did express some of his strong dismay to me about those posts. I also thought some of them read like straight-out hate mail and was shaking my head in disbelief. Others seemed to be just plain old crank mail. > it's no wonder most folks don't get it. you have to have a college level education that includes >_proficiency_ in lit and philosophy and politics and sociology. And that's just the words. we haven't >even touched on the _musical_ demands that she puts on us! This is a good point but something else occurred to me - Joni herself barely has any formal college education! (a fact I have always particularly relished ;-) >You have to 1 be able to follow that 2 be willing to make the jump with her and 3 actually enjoy being > challanged in this way. (While you're _simultaneously_ relishing the double entredres and >symbolism of the forceps and the stone.) These are some of the important keys. But like you noted, so many of her lyrics have been burned in us for a long time. We who hang out the list have an unfair advantage over those who gave up on her long ago or stopped really listening and following. Some of us who attended the L.A. show were cracking up at how we all instantly became the resident "Joni experts" around the people who were sitting near us. > yes, she's taking chances and letting us in on its development as it happens. On the dylan tour, not >critcising, it was all arrangements from the catalog. This is bold stuff. this is not a lazy artist, >coasting on her arranger's work, mouthing the words! I'd rather listen to a chancy Joni performance any day than one that took no risks. From what was mentioned at the concerts, it sounds like she might have already recorded these new orchestral reworks. I hope that the final recorded productions, if they are already in the can, are not so "imperfect" as to open Joni up to a lot of criticism and distract from the beauty of her vision. However, I almost wish that she would wait to record the "final" versions because she just may gain some new musical shadings from some of the "mistakes" inadvertently being made in the music over the course of the tour. >I can't wait to see her attempt this high wire act in Detroit. Like that line that someone wrote for >susan sarrandon on the tribute- she takes us on a hi wire and walks us ALLLLLL the way across. A high wire act without a net! That's what I found so exhilarating and what I think will be fascinating to compare on recordings of the shows from the different venues when they start to emerge. > Yes, Charlie got it. Charlie should be quoted on jm.com this week! Hmmm, I intend to in my way overdue review, if someone else does not beat me to it first! ;-) I'm still catching up on all my unread email (ugh - 165 at last count) and wanted to add my praises to all the reviewers and photographers from West Palm Beach and Atlanta. Thank goodness we are all spread out around the country to offset the crank stuff. Too bad some of you didn't get to meet Joni after the show, but I'm thinking it's probably good that she gets her rest - we don't want her getting sick again like she did on the '98 tours! Looking forward to more reviews this week. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:02:14 -0400 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: UK cub reporters Jacky Gertus@aol.com wrote > You're going to need an assistant, you know, if only to >make you sit still and keep quiet while Joni's rehearsing! You might have be bring a straitjacket along with your notepad! This whole thing is a wonderful fantasy but I do know that the chances of them letting anyone in to watch the rehearsals/recordings are very slim. I suspect that camping on the street outside Air Studios is about as close as we'll get. Whatever, I would feel way to selfish to try and go it alone. When the time is right, I will make enquiries to see if it is possible to have a JMDL Cub Reporters outing to the studio but don't hold your breath. More likely is that we might be able to get a few snippetts via members of the orchestra (they may be sworn to secrecy, mind - I shall ask Downstairs Paul for the low down). Whatever, we'll always respect the JMDL Reporters tradition of 'never' being overly pushy. The 'flow' only works when it is meant too, but the first step is always quietly asking. I could do with some help from all the 'visualizers' on the list - my dream is that Joni and Larry decide that they want to make at least one of the new recordings have a live feel with, say, an audience of 724. Between us, can you imagine the atmosphere we could create in a re-working of 'Dreamland', or 'Harlem in Havana' !!!!!! PaulC PS. Talking of big whoooohooos, Aston Villa could have done with me in the soccer Cup Final against Chelsea on Saturday. I was so bored I ended up taking all the strings off my guitar, boiling them in Fairy Liquid, and re-stringing into an open tuning and playing 'A Case of You' without missing a thing! I guess I should have played 'Chelsea Morning' - they won 1 - 0. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 05:19:06 EDT From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: West Palm Beach Post - Joni Review I think it's interesting reading the newspaper reviews of Joni's concert from the various cities. Here is a mixed and very different review than the one from the Miami Herald. Amazing how people see things so differently. Pearl Mitchell's turn to love tunes abandons folk fans By Charles Passy, Palm Beach Post Music Writer Thursday, May 18, 2000 It takes a leap of faith for an artist to leave behind her songbook of hits and ask an audience to join her on a different musical journey. But that's what Joni Mitchell did Wednesday night at the MARS Music Amphitheatre, trading her folk-pop aesthetic for a concert devoted to romantic standards. In this case, however, that leap of faith seemed more an act of self-indulgence. It's not that Mitchell doesn't have the chops for this material. Her music has always had a jazzy sensibility. And her voice, an instrument saturated in smoke, recalls Billie Holiday in its best moments. She doesn't sing as much as she coolly wraps herself around a song -- the musical equivalent of a cat claiming your lap as a bed. (I kind of like that last line...I think Joni would too. Pearl) Even more to the point, Mitchell's latest album is devoted to this material - -- and it's a testament to her fertile imagination. As she describes it, the recording traces "the arc of romantic love," from infatuation to consummation. The material is classic: At Last, You've Changed, Sometimes I'm Happy, Stormy Weather, etc., plus Mitchell's own A Case of You and Both Sides Now lovingly rearranged for full orchestra. But when Mitchell sang some of these same songs -- and others -- at MARS, it didn't quite have the same effect. You could blame the orchestra, a group of local musicians -- basically, an uncredited Boca Pops -- that didn't swing with the requisite big-band flavor. You could blame the venue: It was a crisp night made for music outdoors, but this concert seemed conceived for the indoors (and given that it didn't draw more than 5,000, why wasn't it at the Kravis Center?). But the larger share of blame rested with Mitchell: It's OK to take chances, but the attitude that emanated on stage was one of defiance to her loyal fan base. Granted, the concert wasn't promoted as an evening of greatest hits, but even when Mitchell stayed true to her concept, she rarely seemed into it. By contrast, when Bruce Springsteen went off on a solo acoustic tour a few years back -- a daring move for an artist who can fill stadiums -- he had a whale of a time. And when Barry Manilow played MARS just a couple of months ago, he showed how a pop star can use an orchestra to his advantage, even in an outdoor setting. Mitchell didn't find a way to gel with her audience -- or her band. The result was a very long evening by a very great artist. charles_passy@pbpost.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:15:31 -0400 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Get-together in Atlanta ...(NJC) Jess mr_lovesaint@webtv.net wrote >and today i got an email from her telling me she was with >me last night , and how she leaned over and kissed me as >the show came to a close. um... im not >ashamed to say i wept ( like i was her little child again ). And this got 'me' going here, too! PaulC (surrounded by discarded tissues) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:45:34 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long (Sorry Steve!) > > it's no wonder most folks don't get it. you have to have a college level > education that includes >_proficiency_ in lit and philosophy and politics > and sociology. And that's just the words. we haven't >even touched on the > _musical_ demands that she puts on us! > > This is a good point but something else occurred to me - Joni herself barely > has any formal college education! (a fact I have always particularly > relished ;-) My fromal eductaion finished when I was age 15. i bought my first Joni album, THOSL at 16 and have loved her work ever since. Perhaps I can't write eloquently about her and perhaps do not have a great philospocial understanding of her music and lyrics. Howver, she touches my heart just the same and maybe even stimulates my common little brain. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:45:47 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long (Sorry Steve!) > > it's no wonder most folks don't get it. you have to have a college level > education that includes >_proficiency_ in lit and philosophy and politics > and sociology. And that's just the words. we haven't >even touched on the > _musical_ demands that she puts on us! > > This is a good point but something else occurred to me - Joni herself barely > has any formal college education! (a fact I have always particularly > relished ;-) My fromal eductaion finished when I was age 15. i bought my first Joni album, THOSL at 16 and have loved her work ever since. Perhaps I can't write eloquently about her and perhaps do not have a great philospocial understanding of her music and lyrics. Howver, she touches my heart just the same and maybe even stimulates my common little brain. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:04:24 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC, BSN Tour :) These are the days of miracle and wonder These are the good old days These are the good old days With thanks to Paul and Carly. Jim Lamadoo near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:43:16 -0400 From: Janet Hess Subject: Merriweather Post questions (NJC) Thursday is approaching and here I am with questions. Some background: I'm a City Mouse. Far as I'm concerned, the Merriweather Post Pavilion in Columbia, MD may as well be in Kansas. (Appropriate apologies to all in Kansas; I'm just using your state as an example of The Exotic.) Constant readers of the JMDL who have a far better memory than I do may recall that I won two tickets to Joni from WAMU, am almost perfect public radio station. Jane, a friend who loves Joni but who has never seen her, will be going with me...and driving, which seems helpful. :) Neither of us has been to Merriweather Post before. Now. Here are some questions. Please excuse how rambly this is; I've been a bit under the weather with a killer cold and allergy problems, and my brain is still wrapped in layers of cotton batting. Also, I tend to sleep at each chance I get. Somehow I think I'll recover in time to drag myself off to catch Joni. ;) Anyway, here are some questions: 1) Anyone have any suggestions or hints for getting to MPP? We'll be leaving from NE DC (Brookland). Here are the directions that I plucked from the MPP web site (at ): FROM WASHINGTON/NORTHERN VIRGINIA... Take the Beltway (495) to 95 North towards Baltimore (approximately 18 miles) to Route 32 towards Columbia to Route 29 North. Take Broken Land Parkway (exit 18B) and take the first right into the Merriweather parking lot. Those of you who know MPP: Is there anything else we should know? 2) Certainly they've heard of food in Columbia, MD, yes? Are there restaurants near MPP? If so, are they reached via the same exit 18B? If not, what? 3) The MPP site refers to concession stands and "a new picnic area beneath our grove of beach trees," but it also notes that food and coolers are restricted. Does that mean that the MPP concession stands offer honest to God food that's intended for picknicking upon? Anyone had any experience with it? 4) Are there plans for any JMDL get togethers pre-concert? Details? 5) Anyone planning on hanging out with Joan? Anyone have any special strategies for bumping into her? Anyone know what hotel might be fruitful? 6) I'm not proud. Certainly there are questions I should have included that I haven't. Please feel free to answer them. ;) Thanks to all. Cheerz, Janet and Deanna Ivy the Wonderkitty, who doesn't fully understand what's special about Thursday - ------ Let all these dogs go running free The wild and gentle dogs Kennelled in me. Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:03:47 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: NJC, BSN Tour :) Jim wrote: >These are the days of miracle and wonder OK, I WAS about to go to bed, but this is going to keep me up all damn night! What song are these lyrics from, please?! My brain stopped functioning about an hour ago. Anticipating a prompt reply, so I can get to bed before midnight for a change, but not holding out much hope, since it's already three minutes past! Hell P.S. I am now the proud (?) owner/designer of a website, dedicated to the cricket team I (somewhat grudgingly, given the last season's results) support. It can be found at: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell if anyone's interested. Feel free to make comments about how silly it all is! _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:02:23 -0400 From: "vollmarr" Subject: posting How do I post to the list? Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 07:15:37 EST From: "E Zattly" Subject: 2 for tonight I have 2 tickets for tonight's show that I can't use. Section 200, Row Y, seats 19 and 20. Face value is $177, but I'll sell for $100. Must be able to meet me today in Central New Jersey. You can page me at 888 597-9936. Thanks, Steve ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:23:24 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Covers Comments Bob wrote > Leonard Nimoy's "BSN" - > Wow, is this one putrid! The whole package smelled so bad I was worried in case the post office refused to take it. The fresh air here is wonderful now that Nazareth and Lillith Fair are gone. Thanks for the Atlanta write up, covers man. Philip NP Beat Of Black Wings ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:45:55 -0400 From: "Bob Muller (Perception)" Subject: Another new JMDL'er! <> Welcome to the JMDL! Thanks to Jim you now know what Siquomb means...and isn't it nice to get a personalized response as opposed to reading an FAQ? ;~) Looking forward to hearing more from you, and if you decide to be a truly bold Mommalion, letting us know what you name is! :~) Bob NP: Annie Lennox, "Ladies of the Canyon" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:56:23 -0400 From: "Bob Muller (Perception)" Subject: Posting (NJC) <> You just did! :~) (Send your message to Joni@smoe.org...) Bob NP: Nana Mouskouri, "BSN" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:05:53 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: NJC:The first waffle Hi, First. Thanks for all the Nick Drake news. Would still like to hear more about him. Anyway, after reading the reviews and the story about how the first waffle is just for warming up the waffle iron and the metaphors involved in that, I tested the waffle iron I bought Mrs. Chili for Valentine's Day last year. It came out fine. Four perfect blue corn meal waffles on the first try for Sunday breakfast. Maybe cause we've been together 20 years? Anyhow, a neighbor gave me a smoke tree as a present for Mrs. Chili. As I walked it home, I thought, Joni what about adding "Smoke gets in your eyes" to the set list. Would be especially funny coming from our Joni ! :-D Warm Regards, - -Chili ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:39:12 -0400 From: "vollmarr" Subject: Both Sides Now Hello everyone! I am so sorry about my late posts. I found out I need to follow a link with my digests. I had bookmarked the list and I couldn't get anywhere with that. I really hate to expose my ignorance with computers, but what can I say? Yes, I was really bad in math class too. BUT, I must say I was so heartened with the post of that wonderful person who proved that old folks like me are in the minority, and I will catch up with this computer age. I wish I had her name, she was great! But to the subject of this post: I received Both Sides Now as a Mother's Day gift. I am constantly amazed with how music seems to find me at certain times of my life. I was a little leary when I found out that Joni would be recording with an orchestra. I never really was into that kind of music, or so I thought. I absolutely loved it! I was surprised. I have heard this music before. My parents had a couple of the songs in their collection of music. "Answer me my love," and I swear I have heard "Comes love" in more than one place. This was the music that my parents and their friends were fondly remembering as "music you could understand the words." Joni has a great collection of songs. The cornerstone for me was "A Case of You." The snare drum in the background reminded me of Neil Young's ear to a different drummer. (reference to Thoreau here) Joni has followed a similar path along the way as well, as Both Sides Now seems to orchestrate (forgive the pun). I am now a "Stay at Home Mom." I relish my new status. I have waited long for this new lifestyle. I always identified with Joni's "No child to raise." I followed my career for 20+years. I still have it with me, as careers often do, especially artistic careers as is the case for me. (photographer) I now get to relive Both Sides Now, this time as a parent. Thank the Lord! Debi ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 06:53:17 PDT From: "Raffaele Malanga" Subject: UK Jonifest CD Box Set The CD box set of the UK Jonifest 2000 held in London last January is ready! Martin Giles just came out of the mastering room after putting together a 2 disc worth of stunning renditions of Joni songs by Jamie Zubairi, Marian Russell, Chris Marshall and other UK Jmdlers. The box set comes in a ‘brilliant’ jewel box with original artwork, and it can be yours for just GBP 5.5 including postage & packing. Martin is now taking orders, so no money is needed right now. Just send me an email booking a copy and Martin or myself will let you know as soon as the copies are ready. To order your copy send an email to r_malanga@hotmail.com Raffaele in London ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:00:01 -0400 From: "Bob Muller (Perception)" Subject: UK Fest Boxset <> Also, I'll be trading with Raffaelle for the set, so when I get my copy, I'll be glad to tree it up for any and all Americans who are interested...no need to let me know now, I'll post again when I receive it... Bob NP: Tori, "A Case of You"...boy these covers sound great - who put this collection together anyway? ;~D ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:38:46 -0400 From: Janene Otten Subject: Tuesday night show in NYC Hi, all. Who is attending the May 23rd show in NYC? Please e-mail privately or publicly so that we can set up a gathering. It would be nice to see some of you there. Only 35 more hours to go! Janene JaneneO@mji.com np: "Amelia" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:35:04 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: repeat of a thread (definitely njc) Richard Rice wrote (how's that for alliteration?) > Bob Muller, my hat's off to you for such a fine review. You write so well, AND you're better looking than I am TOO. OK Bob, here we go again - and it's Monday, ha-ha. For all those 250 or so new JMDLers, we've discussed Bob's fine looks here before. And, yup, he's even better in person! Are you blushing yet, Bob? Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:56:33 -0400 From: "Bob Muller (Perception)" Subject: NJC repeat of a thread (definitely njc) <> And this is always a *sure* sign that we've run out of worthwhile subjects to discuss! :~D (But my ego thanks you, Anne!) Bob NP: Fairport Convention, "Marcie" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:53:40 -0500 From: dennis.leong@mcd.com Subject: Latest Stereophile magazine says... There is a mention of Sony's Super Audio CD (SACD) machine being demo'ed in Paris with "A Case of You" from BSN by our Joni in SACD format. Needless to say, the reviewer was bowled over. I took the plunge and purchased one ($5,000 retail but on the street I've seen it as low as $3000 because of the impending release of the Marantz SACD machine); listers you MUST take some Joni CDs to your local audiophile shop and try it out! Conventional CDs play at a dynamic range of 100 db! The amount of detail and emotion that comes out is nothing short of amazing. I expected a SMALL increment in sound quality; I was wrong. Try it, I promise you will be awestruck. Next, I was reading in Fred Goodman's "The Mansion on the Hill" that when Joni was playing at the Cafe au Go-Go in Greenwich Village, she was being paid fifteen dollars a night!?! Can any of the listers who were around at the time support this? Last but not least, to the listers who are still unconverted by Joni's latest BSN, don't give up! I bought but rejected all of Joni's catalog after HOSL. Then time passed, I got into Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Sara Vaughn, etc. Then I forced myself to listen to her Mingus album again and then the clouds parted! Now, all of her later works are treasures to me. Moreover, the first time I listened to BSN, it moved me to tears. It was like meeting an old, dear friend you haven't heard from in thirty years... And the seasons, they go round and round... dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:58:12 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------D1FD2CB73CBD4F325729AD92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I take exception to a couple of points both Kakki and Jim raise. 1. Both Jim and Kakki took great issue with people writing negative reviews--Jim actually refers to these posts as "SHIT" (caps are his) and equating negative reviews to "hate mail". Why can't people be disappointed in a concert they saw and why can't they write about it? What happens when you start to exclude those who disagree with you? If you do exclude those who disagree with you, then you are beginning to build a list of sycophants. Doesn't even Joni eschew these in a song--is it from CMIARS? (Sorry I don't have the lyrics memorized, nor the track sequence.) And it is dangerous to exclude others--we can learn from everyone. Jim says: "you have to have a college level education that includes _proficiency_ in lit and philosophy and politics and sociology. And that's just the words. we haven't even touched on the_musical_ demands that she puts on us!" What? What? I am just flabbergasted at this remark. Are you telling me that anyone who doesn't have a college degree can't enjoy Joni Mitchell songs? Yes, you are. That's just what you said. And you are saying that even college graduates who are not as proficient in *your* selected disciplines cannot get her words, her meaning. You are basically saying that anyone (even me with an MFA) because we are not as schooled as you have been in philosophy and literature and politics and sociology--that we can't get her lyrics, will never get her lyrics (unless, of course, we immerse ourselves in philosophy and literature and politics and sociology) and we should not be allowed to express my opinions about a POP STAR's music--and definitely not allowed to express those opinions on the POP STAR's website. This smacks of the worst kind of elitism. And when Kakki jokes about putting only the good reviews on the site, and archiving the others, I didn't get the feeling that it was a complete joke. 2. Kakki wrote: "Even if they couldn't hear the lyrics from the orchestra drowning them out they should have known them by heart and "gotten" it. "They're going to aim the hoses on you" and "just when you're getting a taste for worship, they start bringing out the hammers and the nails." What? Again, I am flabbergasted. You are saying--not even suggesting--that every audience member should have all the lyrics for the entire Joni Mitchell song book memorized before they go to a concert. What? I know you both will think I am a Neanderthal but I was not sure what Ludwig's tune was and I had to go back to listen to it the other day. There are JM albums that do it for me and others that don't--but I own them all because this woman is a genius and I want her work to be in my life. I have Joni Mitchell posters hanging in my office at home, I have an autographed photo of her in my work office, and I crave her music when I don't hear enough of it. However, I do not know every lyric of hers and probably never will. Does that me any less of a Joni fan? I don't think so but you two obviously do. (And, in these remarks, you are turning the hoses on those whom you think are below you in the JM mindset. Then, you get out your own kind of hammer and nails.) I couldn't let these pass without calling you on the carpet. Both of these sentiments are so elitist it angered me instantly when I read them. They are dangerous and scary thoughts. This internet has been called the most democratic of all media because so many people of so many different backgrounds--from education to economic--can speak together and to one another. Let's foster that idea rather than the same historical models of grouping with our own and excluding those with whom we don't agree. You never know what you could learn from an uneducated slob who relates to someone's music from a completely different perspective than yours. Howard M - --------------D1FD2CB73CBD4F325729AD92 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="howard_scptv.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Howard Motyl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="howard_scptv.vcf" begin:vcard n:Motyl;Howard tel;fax:312-421-7714 tel;work:312-421-7711 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:SCPtv Worldwide adr:;;400 N. May St., Suite 201;Chicago;Illinois;60622;USA version:2.1 email;internet:howard_scptv@interaccess.com title:Director, Creative Development note:"Any time you have the opportunity to accomplish something for those coming behind you and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente x-mozilla-cpt:;3 fn:Howard Motyl end:vcard - --------------D1FD2CB73CBD4F325729AD92-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:39:29 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Campbell/Webb NJC This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------59A035E5C3B5B8408198792A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know that Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb are doing some gigs in NY together and I'm wondering if anyone knows if they are doing shows anywhere else. Thanks. Howard M - --------------59A035E5C3B5B8408198792A Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="howard_scptv.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Howard Motyl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="howard_scptv.vcf" begin:vcard n:Motyl;Howard tel;fax:312-421-7714 tel;work:312-421-7711 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:SCPtv Worldwide adr:;;400 N. May St., Suite 201;Chicago;Illinois;60622;USA version:2.1 email;internet:howard_scptv@interaccess.com title:Director, Creative Development note:"Any time you have the opportunity to accomplish something for those coming behind you and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente x-mozilla-cpt:;3 fn:Howard Motyl end:vcard - --------------59A035E5C3B5B8408198792A-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:00:12 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: ludwig's tune Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:45:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Stoy Hi all, Does anyone know whether Joni had some reason for spelling "Judgement of the Moons and Stars" the way she did (instead of "Judgment")? Erin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:10:15 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Campbell/Webb NJC Howard Motyl wrote: > I know that Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb are doing some gigs in NY > together and I'm wondering if anyone knows if they are doing shows > anywhere else. I certainly hope so. I saw them perform 3 songs this week on CBS Saturday Morning. They were spectacular together. Just guitar and piano and those gorgeous Webb tunes. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:13:26 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: ludwig's tune Les Irvin wrote: > > Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:45:38 -0700 (PDT) > From: Erin Stoy > > Hi all, > Does anyone know whether Joni had some reason for > spelling "Judgement of the Moons and Stars" the way > she did (instead of "Judgment")? > Erin Yes-she didn't get a college degree and therfore cannot spell. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:16:52 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: DED on CD Hi, all. I went back to digest, so haven't posted in a few days. I hope everyone is well today (no digest yet). Dog Eat Dog is out of print, according to my local record stores and Barnes & Noble, etc. Although I have the vinyl (no turntable, though) and a pre-recorded cassette, I'd like to find a CD. Does anyone have any suggestions, beyond scouring used record stores? Any ideas would be appreciated...or, if there's a kind soul out there with an extra copy or two, who'd be willing to sell one... Many thanks, "Boston Jim" NP: Dr. John, Television, "Limbo" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:23:53 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long Howard-I too was taken aback by these posts. Perhaps you read the few lines I had to say on the matter. In the past I have been flamed, called all sorts of things, and generally received some shit.(I need to add very little though compared to the lovely posts I get). However, these two posts really made me feel bad. I know they were not aimed specifically at me and perhaps their authors did not realise how hurtful their comments would be. It has been a long time since I have been made to feel small and put in my place. I am aware that many people here have a knowledge of music that i do not and perhaps are far better educated. This is one reason i feel i would not wish to go to a Jonifest. I have felt I would just be like a fish out of water. these two posts make that feeling more real for me. In the end, life is about respect for others and their feelings. We all fall short of that. At the end of life all that will count is how we loved, not our superior intellect or education or 'success'. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:40:22 -0400 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: Miyake on TV (njc) I happened to see a 10 minute or so segment on Isse Miyake. (Clearly I've been watching too much TV lately!) Apparently, he has turned the reins of designing to a protege, whose name I don't remember. They showed some previous collections and the one designed by the new designer. My guess is that Joni won't be all that happy. The new designs were quite different, much more classical, and didn't use the crinkly fabric at all. Plus they were quite revealing. Having somehow seen this particular show on fashion once too often, I have to wonder how many of these designers make any money. Today's feature was truly hideous. (Imagine a 'dress' that's like a giant yellow twinkie - I kid you not!) And, to tell the truth, I don't care for the Miyake designs either. (Have to admit to breathing a sigh of relief whenver Ralph Lauren appears - so I'm boring...) Anne who has 5 different 'basic black' dresses hanging in her closet... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:26:13 -0700 From: "James L. Leonard" Subject: Re: DED on CD (SJC) Thanks, Jimmy, and, not to worry...it would take more than *your* crowd to scare me away. :-) Thanks as well to everyone who dropped me a line. I guess the Tampa, FL stores don't know what they're talking about...I checked Wherehouse Music (formerly Blockbuster), Barnes & Noble, Borders, Sam Goody and Best Buy. "Out of print," was the unanimous concensus, according to their databases. I didn't look at CD Now or Amazon, thinking that I was given the straight scoop. (I have also resisted, to this point, using a credit card online. I guess it's time to break the ice.) Thanks again, everybody. "Boston Jim" NP: "Tax Free" (pre-recorded cassette) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 12:51 PM Subject: Re: DED on CD (SJC) > Boston Jim writes: > > I went back to digest, so haven't posted in a few days. I hope everyone is > well today (no digest yet). > > Whew Jim, I thought my crowd might have scared you away at the West Palm > Beach concert :~) > > I think you might want to check with another B&N clerk or another store. > I still see DED at most of the record stores. > > Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:31:33 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long Howard and Colin, Please stop the tack you're following with this. Don't leap to turn this into yet another protracted "us" vs. "them" battle. My comments and I believe Jim's also, were not directed at *anyone* on this list, nor are we trying to be "elitist" here. They are a reaction to some of the "reviews" sent in to be posted on JM.com. Reviews that Jim Johanson himself has said he is appalled by. Have you noticed some of them? Reviews, that to some of our interpretations are so bad that they reek of plain old troublemaking, mean-spiritedness rather than an honest articulate assessment of her shows. They are a downer, a bummer, and I'm don't feel like sitting quiet and accepting them. They are out there for Joni to read and I feel bad for her. Just as Jim is being generous and fair to them and letting them post these on her web site, some of us are also entitled to discuss them. I think all of us here can tell the difference between those types of submissions and others that are sincere in their disappointment. Maybe the problem is that these people are not posting on the list and so we are reacting and responding off-list to words written that not everyone here has read yet. I'm very sorry you really believed we were trying to set up some elitist, exclusionary "salon" here. Fomr the time I joined this list, I accepted that there are people here who know more than I do, have more of an insider history of Joni, who are far more educated, talented, and creative than me. That doesn't piss me off or make me want to tear those people down because I perceive they have something I don't and am intimidated by it. On the contrary, I'm overjoyed to find such a wonderful pocket of interesting people to get to listen to and come to know. There was so much I didn't know about Joni and her music when I joined the list. There was a lot of her music that I didn't quite like or "get" but I was open to others' opinions on the subject. I didn't sit here and dig in my heels and say "well, I'm never going to like it, no matter what you say." I'm grateful for the many people who have enlightened me and enhanced my appreciation of all of her work. It's a wonderful thing. If people don't want to get it and want to hold on to their negative opinions, that's fine, too. It's just frustrating sometimes, though, when one thinks about how much those people are cheating themselves. We only know in part, all of us. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:41:50 EDT From: GREYC1@aol.com Subject: LA Orchestra Does anyone have a listing of the members of the Los Angeles orchestra that played with Joni at the Greek? Thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:31:50 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long, long, long Kakki wrote: > > Howard and Colin, > > Please stop the tack you're following with this. Don't leap to turn this > into yet another protracted "us" vs. "them" battle. Kaki-I was surprised to read you initially wrote and even more surprised to read this. Niether sound like the Kakki I am used to reading. As for turning this into an us and them situation, you did by your comments. you wrote: Fomr the time I joined this list, I accepted that there are people here who know more than I do, have more of an insider history of Joni, who are far more educated, talented, and creative than me. That doesn't piss me off or make me want to tear those people down because I perceive they have something I don't and am intimidated by it. On the contrary, I'm overjoyed to find such a wonderful pocket of interesting people to get to listen to and come to know. It doesn't piss me off either nor does it make me want to tear anybody down. that is not what I have done. I merely reacted to being told that a lack of education, intellect or some other lack meant i could not appreciate Joni. The point is we all have different tastes. I own every single cd Joni has made and love most of them. the fact that some of them do not resonate with me does mean i lack something. I said a while ago that i couldn't imagine Joni being able to pull off BSN. I now have the cd and still think that. Others think it is wonderful. That is what it is to being human. I do not think that those who love BSN lack anything. Just that they feel differently. No matter how eloquently you write you cannot make people like what they don't. It isn't a reflection upon you, doesn't invalidate your taste. Nor mine. you wrote: If people don't want to get it and want to hold on to their negative opinions, that's fine, too. To me this smacks of the elitist attitude I and others perceived. It is not a case of being stubborn or not wanting to get it. We can't all like the same things and to be told that we lack something is insulting. Kakki-you have been here longer than I and in all that time I have never read anything from you that i thought was rude or arrogant or insulting. Which is why i was so surprised by your original post and even more surprised by this second because it is apparent that you didn't get it! Still none of us are perfect and I won't hold it aganist you ! ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:51:41 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: DED on CD (SJC) Boston Jim writes: I went back to digest, so haven't posted in a few days. I hope everyone is well today (no digest yet). Whew Jim, I thought my crowd might have scared you away at the West Palm Beach concert :~) Dog Eat Dog is out of print, according to my local record stores and Barnes & Noble, etc. >> I think you might want to check with another B&N clerk or another store. I still see DED at most of the record stores. If that fails you can always get it from CD Now (through the JM.Com so the website gets a kickback). ..........and if all else fails, I'll be happy to burn you a copy. I don't have a burner, but a friend of mine does. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:41:13 -0400 From: "Ken (slarty)" Subject: Re: ludwig's tune She might not have gone to university but she knows how to read a dictionary. Mine (Websters New Complete) says: judgment or judgement catman wrote: > Les Irvin wrote: > > > > Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:45:38 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Erin Stoy > > > > Hi all, > > Does anyone know whether Joni had some reason for > > spelling "Judgement of the Moons and Stars" the way > > she did (instead of "Judgment")? > > Erin > > Yes-she didn't get a college degree and therfore cannot spell. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:00:08 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Campbell/Webb NJC > Howard Motyl wrote: > > > I know that Glen Campbell and Jimmy Webb are doing some gigs in NY > > together and I'm wondering if anyone knows if they are doing shows > > anywhere else. > > I certainly hope so. I saw them perform 3 songs this week on CBS > Saturday Morning. They were spectacular together. Just guitar and piano > and those gorgeous Webb tunes. > > Jerry > > It would be a dream to see these two together live. I have a vague memory of Jimmy guesting when Glen had his own tv series.. They played Dublin seperately in the past year. Maybe they'll come back as a duo. Philip NP Lou Donaldson - Caracas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:52:40 -0400 From: "Ken (slarty)" Subject: Re: DED on CD CdNow has it on special at $5.99 "James L. Leonard" wrote: > Hi, all. > Dog Eat Dog is out of print, Any ideas would be > appreciated... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:03:12 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: ludwig's tune Ken, Whenever two spellings are given, the first is the preferred. However, she is Canadian. Webster's is an American dictionary. Paul I In a message dated Mon, 22 May 2000 5:48:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Ken (slarty)" writes: << She might not have gone to university but she knows how to read a dictionary. Mine (Websters New Complete) says: judgment or judgement catman wrote: > Les Irvin wrote: > > > > Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:45:38 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Erin Stoy > > > > Hi all, > > Does anyone know whether Joni had some reason for > > spelling "Judgement of the Moons and Stars" the way > > she did (instead of "Judgment")? > > Erin > > Yes-she didn't get a college degree and therfore cannot spell. >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:07:18 -0500 From: dennis.leong@mcd.com Subject: Come in from the Cold VHS tape in mint unsealed condition This tape is looking for a good home. I found it at a record convention the other day. This is not an auction. If multiple listers want it, I'll put all the names in a hat and draw randomly for the winner. My cost was $8.00. So total cost is $8.00 plus postage. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:21:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Our Lady Of Duality, an essay, Long I too, am wondering where this bubbling of discontent is coming from. And I think I may have arrived at something of an answer. I think we should all be honest with ourselves ... we are a minority. We, as a dedicated group of Joni acolytes, scour the pubs for every drop of ink spilled in her name, scan the net for every electron fired off in her name, collect rarities with a fervor matched only in the orchid world ... and have listened to "Mingus" enough times not only to "get it", but to actually enjoy it. Such is not the world of the legion of fans long since departed. Far more folks scratched their heads when the heard HOSL, rolled their eyes when they heard DJRD, and once Mingus hit the racks, walked away convinced that our Joni had truly lost her grip on sanity. They pull out "Blue" once a year, or once every other year -- and maybe notice when "Help Me" plays in the grocery stores, or maybe not. Okay, so along comes TNT's "A Tribute To Joni Mitchell", which no one's going to argue, is the highest profile publicity she's gotten in a decade. A star-studded line-up plays the "oldie/goodies" for the most part -- and Joni herself sings the title cut of her latest album. So these folks think, "Great, she's back!" and buy tickets ... EXPENSIVE tickets for the "Both Sides Now" tour. Imagine their bewilderment at the set list. No oldie-folkie-goodies ... not so much as a guitar string in sight, let alone a whole guitar. Instead, here's the Great American Songbook with a baritone Joni the torch singer crooning in the spotlight surrounded by a Lawrence Welk sized orchestra. To the "casual" fan, drawn in by recent publicity and blissfully ignorant of Joni's recent direction ... I can understand the disappointment. I don't agree with it -- but I do understand it. Don Rowe ===== "I want a stillness inside, and a quiet of mind, and to stop dreaming of the comfort of strangers." -- Julia Fordham __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #272 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?