From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #211 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, April 23 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 211 The 'Official' Joni Mitchell Homepage, created by Wally Breese, can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com. It contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Original Interviews, essays, lyrics and much much more. --- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. --- Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund" with all donations going directly towards the upkeep of the website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds. it is now up to US to help Jim continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA. 01983 USA ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re:(NJC) Christine Lavin(& now John Gorka too) [some millers ] Re: Where love and kindness are...(NJC) [MGVal@aol.com] NJC ASCAP question [Deb Messling ] re: kate's ideas on joni and kilauren [pat holden ] Re: NJC ASCAP question [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby [catman ] Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby [MDESTE1@aol.com] Elian - NJC (was:Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby ) [MGVal@aol.com] Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Joni's management team ["P. Henry" ] More Elian: (Was:Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby) - NJC [MGVal@ao] Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby (NJC) [RSTM@aol.com] Re: Elian - NJC (was:Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby ) [Guitarpoi] Re: Elian - NJC (was:Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby ) [catman ] Re: fantastic! [Mark Domyancich ] Joni's management/Gilmore NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Where charity and love prevail NJC [Vince Lavieri ] My Joni Mitchell Site ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: Joni Today Show Interview (more thoughts) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: toontown, Krall and giving up baby ["Mark or Travis" Subject: Re:(NJC) Christine Lavin(& now John Gorka too) howdy strangers - this thread has wooed me from the densely populated land of the jmdl lurkers... imho, christine lavin is among that scarce group of songwriter/artists that are adept at covering the entire spectrum of human emotion in any given show or recording. i've been fortunate to see her perform several times in relatively small venues, and have a number of her recordings. her ability to evoke, and intertwine, laughter and tears in the course of a performance or recording is not often encountered. because i've so seldom encountered these qualities, i also feel compelled to mention john gorka before returning to lurker-land. clearly, he is also among that same scarce group that can handle the full range of human emotion with awesome grace and ease. i've also been fortunate to see him perform several times in small venues, including one particularly memorable show at caffe lena in saratoga that was rather sparsely attended because of a snow storm. all of his recordings are worthwhile, though "jack's crows" is a personal fave. incidentally, i have the recording that tanya mentioned, and i'd be happy to share tapes with any of you who are after any other particular recordings that i may have. just send me a reply (off-list) and i'll let you know if i have what you're looking for. buenas noches/dias- paul s. bethlehem, ny In an earlier message Tanya wrote: >Wally and Alison, >I have just discovered Christine Lavin myself and am trying to find more of >her music. Where can I find some recordings? Do you know that song "It's a >good thing he can't read my mind". I'm trying to find some stuff for a show >I'm planning on doing here in NYC in the next year or so. > >Any help would be much appreciated! >: ) >Tanya And even earlier Chili wrote: >Saw the thread beginning about Christine Lavin. Yes, Mrs. Chili and I are >both fans of Christine. She is funny! A cross between Joni and Bette Midler. >We caught a show of hers and also met her at the Towne Crier in Pawling , NY >(where our own JMDL Tom Ross sometimes plays). She was very good. Still while >I like her funny songs, she can write some very good serious songs e.g. >"Realities". >- -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:23:24 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Joni & Folk Song (NJC) RSTM@aol.com wrote: > Singing folk music strikes me as performance rather than creative art. I think performance is certainly an art in itself. In particular, the highly evolved modes of performance of many types of folk music, and the framework for individual expression provided in them, make folk singing a creative art. Because most folk musics have (until recently) been passed down through the oral tradition, I think that the "meaning" of folk music (or part of it) is created in and through the act of performance itself (though this may seem a fine point) -- not because the authorship/source has been forgotten over time (in many cases, it hasn't been) or because of the "folk process," but because of what differentiates it from classical/popular musics and what ties it to the culture it comes from. Not to mention that creating new songs and modifying existing ones have always been part of folk musics. I think in folk music there's less of a distinction between singer/performer and creator -- everyone has the potential, and "permission," to be both. Anyway, I just think that real engagement with folk music is a creative art in every sense of the term. However I agree with you that Joni was probably interested in a different type of creation. I was going to write about some other posts in this thread also but I'll wait till later. Best wishes, - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 06:30:02 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Where love and kindness are...(NJC) In a message dated 4/22/00 11:37:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: << Ubi caritas et amor Deus ibi est. (Where true love and kindness are found, God is always there.) >> What a lovely phrase and so incredibly true! I read this and thought of the companion piece: "Let there be peace on Earth and let it begin with me." Where "peace" = "love and kindness," reminding us all that God resides, first and foremost with us and we are God's ambassadors. For me, this time of year always inspires what might typically be called "new year's resolutions," and it's always a time to reflect upon and encourage the God within me. Peace and love to all of the jmdl family, MG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 07:20:17 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: NJC ASCAP question Does a non-profiit organization that books musicians for a free monthly cultural program have to pay fees to ASCAP? Just curious... Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ ~there are only three kinds of people: those who can count, and those who can't. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 07:52:29 -0500 From: pat holden Subject: re: kate's ideas on joni and kilauren Kate du nord wrote: <> Kate, you make perfect sense..good points raised. To imagine giving up a child is impossible, even if you've done it and even then, the impossible-ness of it all stays with you. Relinquishment of a child is never easy, no matter what the circumstances, no matter how "right" anyone thinks it is. The act of relinquishing a child seeps through every cell, and affects most things you think about or do. At some level, it influences everything. I think this is a good subject to discuss because of the impact it inevitably has on Joni and her work. I know that it is something that a woman never really "gets over". I still stand with my thought that Joni and Kilauren had enough to deal with, just getting through the searching/finding/meeting without all the hoopla from the media . How very difficult it must be to deal with all that. mags - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- _~O / /\_, ___/\ /_ - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:19:37 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC ASCAP question I may be wrong, but...ASCAP, BMI and SESAC don't license (collect annual fees from) organizations; they license places/businesses/venues. That is, they license the bars, restaurants, stores and hotels where "their" repertoire is played live or on jukeboxes, TV, radio, muzak etc. The relevant issue would be, I think, where the event is to be held to which you refer in your post, Deb. DAVID LAHM ps: it sounds like you are talking of a "small performance," a non-dramatic use of the songs. If it were a dramatic use (in a musical or maybe even a revue), permission is not to be granted by ASCAP but by the individual copyright holder(s). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 15:03:19 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby > > Catman: "She gave up her daughter for her art." > > I don't think this is true. Joni gave up her daughter *for her > daughter.* It wasn't in order to make it easier for her to pursue her > own interests; it was because she wanted her daughter to have the secure > home that she didn't trust herself to provide. It seems I misunderstood why Joni gave her daughter up. I had thought she gave her up because she wanted to establish herself as an artist. I just saw a documentarty where an artist did almost that-sent her daughter to live with her parents whilst she persued her career. No matter how one explains that, the child will feel that as rejection. I fully agree with the rest of what you had to say, though of course there are people who don't give a toss about their children and get rid because it is convenient or keep for the same reason. Not all mothers are good mothers. Giving birth does not make a mother. Those that do give up there children for adoption because it is really in the best interests of the child are indeed amazing people. That is love, no doubt about it. Unfortuneately there is not enough of that around. Children are the most precious thing the human race and we all take them far too lightly. As regards discrimination, oppression and abuse, children suffer the most. I renently heard of the Richard(?) and Jessica children who were handed back to their respective biological parents after having been adopted and living with their new famileies for years.Absolutely appalling. GThe caourts and the natutral parents certainly did not have the best interests of those poor children at haert. they just ripped them from the only homes they knew to satisfy themselves. The children, as usual, will pay the price. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 07:37:55 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: re: Case of you question >Does anyone know who A Case of You was written for?> not to pick on this post necessarily or the author of it. I'm sure someone has responded with what what they heard or read somwhere... (boy, am *I* behind!) but more to use this example for a hopefully short and enlightening rant. (remember I said hopefully) oft times we go threading off after the elusive 'who's this one about' clues and it just occurred to me that, of the many songs Joni's written about men and relationships with them, they just can't all be specifically 'about' someone. yes, we have very strong reality based 'about' songs like Rainy Night House about Leonard Cohen, for example, but, if we are to take Joni at her word in interviews and such, many of her songs are entirely fictional... or figurative... sometimes even in the third person like Free Man. simply put: they all aren't about someone. 'nuf said, pat *who is REALLY working on brevity* Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 10:55:20 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby In a message dated 00-04-23 10:04:43 EDT, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << Children are the most precious thing the human race and we all take them far too lightly. As regards discrimination, oppression and abuse, children suffer the most. >> The picture on the front page today of a storm trooper pointing a german made machine gun at Elian Gonzalez while forcibly removing him from his relatives was chilling to me. The most recent court decision affirmed that the administration is totally mishandling the matter but they did this anyway. Regardless of where one stands on the Elian matter vis a vis asylum, this was GROSS child abuse by our government. Subjecting a six year old to such trauma is a despicable act from an administration which purports to care so much about children. Our generation used to condemn such acts by the government when they were even close to this. Today the aquiescence is deafening. I personally am deeply saddened. I also agree with what you said about adoption. I admire Joni greatly for having gone this way years ago. Marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:09:47 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Elian - NJC (was:Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby ) In a message dated 4/23/00 7:59:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << Regardless of where one stands on the Elian matter vis a vis asylum, this was GROSS child abuse by our government. Subjecting a six year old to such trauma is a despicable act from an administration which purports to care so much about children. >> I woke up yesterday morning to CNN and the coverage and like Marcel, I was appalled and deeply offended. To be sure, I felt that the child belonged with the father, (if this was a case of Elian being separated from his mother, well....), and perhaps the law needed to be upheld, BUT the main player in this drama was a 6 year old child, not a shipment of bananas or computer chips. A baby, really. Regardless of what laws the Miami relatives may have been breaking, the boy was hardly in the clutches of a Jonestown cult group. I keep trying to write: "a more prudent approach would have been," but I am still so utterly, utterly appalled. With prayers for all, MG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:50:40 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby In a message dated 4/23/00 10:59:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << The picture on the front page today of a storm trooper pointing a german made machine gun at Elian Gonzalez while forcibly removing him from his relatives was chilling to me. The most recent court decision affirmed that the administration is totally mishandling the matter but they did this anyway. Regardless of where one stands on the Elian matter vis a vis asylum, this was GROSS child abuse by our government. >> In my opinion, you'e ful of crap. The Miami relatives essentially had kidnapped Elian by refusing to turn him over when the courts and authorities told them to. Elian's father, as next of kin who is making a claim for his child, clearly has the right to his child. Mewanwhile, the relatives who were holding the boy hostage threatened violence (and were the first party to do so in this case) should the government attempt to take the boy. If your child were being held hostage, you would thank god that authorities were able to rescue the child from armed kidnappers and return him to you without anyone getting seriously hurt. Elian belongs with his father, and if his father is Cuban or Martian, that's where he should go. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:34:54 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Joni's management team sue wrote: >I couldn't help but notice that S.L. Feldman represents Diana. Isn't this the same mangement team that Joni has? They deserve a lot of credit for doing a terrific job of helping get Joni the recognition she deserves. I wonder if they represent some of the other artists at the tribute? Sue> well, to investigate, here's their hp: http://www.slfa.com and here's thir roster: Alannah Myles Albert Schultz Alpha Yaya Diallo Amanda Marshall Amy Sky Anne Murray April Wine Ashley MacIsaac Barenaked Ladies Barney Bentall Barra MacNeils Barrage Bif Naked Big Wreck Black Diamond Brothers Creeggan Bruce Guthro Bryan Adams Burton Cummings Captain Tractor Carlos Nunez Chantal Kreviazuk Charlie Major Chieftains Chris Cummings Coco Love Alcorn Colin James & The Little Big Band Copyright Cowboy Junkies Crash Test Dummies David Wilcox Dayna Manning DDT Diana Krall Doug & The Slugs Dr. Yellowfever Dunk Econoline Crush Edwin Emm Gryner Esthero Feeding Like Butterflies Finger Eleven Flashing Lights Furnaceface Gob Grapes of Wrath Harem Scarem Harlequin Helix Holly Cole Honeymoon Suite I Mother Earth Irish Descendants Irish Rovers j. Englishman Jacksoul Jann Arden Jazzberry Ram Jeff Healey Band Jelleestone Jesse Cook Jet Set Satellite Jim Byrnes Jim Witter John McDermott Johnny Favourite Swing Orch. JONI MITCHELL Joydrop Julian Austin Junkhouse Kenny Shields Killjoys Kim Mitchell Kim Stockwood La Bottine Souriante Laurel MacDonald Lawrence Gowan Leahy Len Lene Marlin Lhasa Lilith Fair Limblifter Local Rabbits Long John Baldry Loverboy MacKeel Made Mahones Marc Jordan Martina McBride Mary Jane Lamond Matthew Good Band Melanie Dekker Melanie Doane Michelle Wright Miller Stain Limit Moffatts Moist Mystery Machine Natalie MacMaster Nelley Furtado Northern Pikes Nylons Our Lady Peace Philosopher Kings Platinum Blonde Pocket Dwellers Prairie Oyster Prozzak Quartetto Gelato Rankins Rascalz Rita MacNeil Road Apples Robert Michaels Ron Sexsmith Rush Rymes with Orange Sarah McLachlan Sass Jordan Serial Joe Sissel Sky Slainte Mhath Sloan Son of Dave souLDecision Special Guests Spirit Of The West Sum 41 Tal Bachman Tara MacLean Templar The Tea Party Thrush Hermit Todd Kerns Band Tom Cochrane Tom Wilson Tony Lee Travoltas Treble Charger Trooper Wesley Chu Wide Mouth Mason Wild Strawberries Yve And Adam Zuckerbaby LITTLE BIG MAN BOOKING Arnold Bernard Butler Beth Orton Bic Runga Candy Butchers Catatonia Charlatans UK Cyclefly David Mead dEUS Devlins Dido Eagle Eye Cherry Embrace Faithless Fish Gay Dad Getaway People Gomez Gravel Pit Harvey Danger James Kendall Payne Lamb Letters To Cleo Levellers Lilith Fair Liz Phair Longpigs Manic Street Preachers Mark Lizotte Mayfield Four Neneh Cherry P.O.D. Paul Kelly Republica Rialto Richard Ashcroft Robbie Williams Shack Splashdown Stereophonics Stroke Superdrag Symposium Todd Thibaud Tricky Trinket Unbelievable Truth Whale Wood Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 12:40:02 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: More Elian: (Was:Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby) - NJC In a message dated 4/23/00 8:53:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << In my opinion, you'e ful of crap. The Miami relatives essentially had kidnapped Elian by refusing to turn him over when the courts and authorities told them to. Elian's father, as next of kin who is making a claim for his child, clearly has the right to his child. Mewanwhile, the relatives who were holding the boy hostage threatened violence (and were the first party to do so in this case) should the government attempt to take the boy. >> Paul, I think that the issue is less what the Miami relatives did wrong and more how the government decided to uphold the law. I, too, believe that the boy belongs with the father. Indeed, if the surviving parent was the mother, I doubt that we would have seen this go on like this. And by all accounts that I've read, the boy and father had a good relationship. But I think that sometimes upholding the law just isn't the best course of action when the prize is a 6 year old child. Although I'm sure that the Miami relatives are guilty of brainwashing, (ie: we won't let you go back to Cuba because of x, y or z), it's just bad psychology to yank the boy out via a swat team. Maybe, just maybe, the government and Elian's Dad needed to take a different route and maybe one of the risks would be that the boy did not get reunited with his father until much later down the road. I would rather see the boy remain w/ the relatives than to be pulled out in such a violent manner. The more I think about the Reno's decision, the more I think about my experience with a religious cult. I was forcibly kidnapped along with another church member over Easter, nearly 25 years ago. My companion was a 24 year old adult and it took him several years to get over the trauma of being stormed upon and yanked out from what he knew best. Granted, without rifles and an accompanying swat team, but the damage, even in relation to the greater good of being out of the Moonies, was enormous. I can only imagine what it will be like for Elian. Back to baking, MG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:31:58 EDT From: RSTM@aol.com Subject: Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby (NJC) Mr. D'Este writes << Regardless of where one stands on the Elian matter vis a vis asylum, this was GROSS child abuse by our government. >> I beg to differ. The Reno Administration showed incredible restraint after months of defiance by a right wing group of political hacks. The so called "family's" treatment of the kid, their use of him in videos and on TV as a tool to attract attention to their cause, bordered on kiddie porn. I don't like the guns, I am very happy that no one was hurt, and I loved the picture of the boy and his father when they were finally reunited. Viva la revolucion! Then again, I could be wrong Scion of Tanya and Cinque ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:51:12 EDT From: Guitarpoint@aol.com Subject: Re: Elian - NJC (was:Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby ) The question in my mind is "What if it was my child?". Is it better he was taken that way so he doesn't feel like a ball being bounced around and thinking that his temporary home just let him go. All in all a very difficult question with no answer that would make anybody happy. The most incredible thing besides his survival was the fact the he has said that dolphins kept him from sinking the three days he was afloat. (Good Morning America interview) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 18:57:00 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Elian - NJC (was:Re: toontown, krall, and giving up baby ) > > I keep trying to write: "a more prudent approach would have been," but I am > still so utterly, utterly appalled. The whole point is, reagrdless of what we as adults think about the rights and wrongs, the child, in this case a six year old, is going to react to the swat team as a six year old with no concept of the political picture or anything else. I would have thought he would have felt confusion and terror. Even as an adsult, i think I would feel the same. The boy has already been thru so much if I understand correctly that he was on a ship with his mother that foundered and his mother and others drowned. Trauma enough for anyone. To have this happen to is truly awful for the child. We as adults get so caught up in the philosophical arguments or the politics that we froget the child. In fact, i think far too many of us forget that we were once children and if we do remember that we were, forget what it felt like. It is important for adults to recall the feelings of childhood not just the events. For in that way we might handle children better and create less pain for them. The way adults talk about children is as if they never were children. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:59:19 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: fantastic! Just wanted to say congratulations and express my deepest thanks to Sue, Howard, Marian and Mark again for their amazing, painstaking efforts on the guitar site. Sue, the newly revamped Sue's Tab's is a wonder of organization - -- extremely helpful to guitarists who want to figure out how Joni plays her stuff and an enormous tribute to the genius of Joni Mitchell. How many hours did you spend reworking this amazing site? It's truly a labor of love. Yesterday I Iearned how to play Harry's House, and for whatever reason, the calluses on my fingers are still aching (all that sliding, I guess) but I realized immediately this was a tuning I had never played in. With the new improved Sue's Tabs, I learned within seconds that Harry's House is in the same tuning as Edith and the Kingpin and Furry Sings the Blues. Everyone who plays guitar should check it out. 25 years ago, I was frustrated that every Joni songbook but one had transcribed her open tuning chords to standard tuning with always disappointing results, but no one has to go through that frustration now thanks to the dedicated guitarists of this discussion group. xxoo, Clark np: John McLaughlin and Shakti, Best of ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 16:14:25 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC Elian MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > The picture on the front page today of a storm trooper I do resent this word, strongly. > pointing a german made I resent the implication here too. > > machine gun at Elian Gonzalez while forcibly removing him from his relatives > was chilling to me. The most recent court decision affirmed that the > administration is totally mishandling the matter no; it required Elian to remain in the US while proceedings continue but did not address the issue of Elian being with his father... that was addressed by other courts, which said Elian should be (the Florida county courts, the INS on 5 January, the federal court order of 13 April which the Miami relatives did not abide by). > but they did this anyway. > Regardless of where one stands on the Elian matter vis a vis asylum, this was > GROSS child abuse by our government. Subjecting a six year old to such trauma > is a despicable act from an administration which purports to care so much > about children. Our generation used to condemn such acts by the government > when they were even close to this. Today the aquiescence is deafening. I > personally am deeply saddened. > > Marcel deste Oh Marcel, I so disagree. The greatest child abuse that I saw IMHO was the denial of the father to that child (who has already lost a mother) by the Miami relatives, who used that boy as a sideshow attraction for their political views. The videotape of that child sitting in his great uncle's house pointing and wagging his finger saying he didn't want his father... that was the most horrific type of abuse on the Miami relatives part. Imagine someone talking your children, Marcel, and denying you the right to have your children, and working on turning your children against you... because of where you live, or your political views. The Miami relatives refused to agree to a turnover. It was all over the news on Thursday and Friday that federal officials were moving towards Miami to retrieve the child and return him to his father. The Miami relatives, their attorneys, and Janet Reno and her people were on the phone right to the rescue of Elian - and it was their refusal to agree to turn the boy over that elicited the rescue operation. They knew the consequences... I think they got what they wanted. Am I happy about the way he was rescued? No. Am I happy that the Miami relatives forced such a rescue? Very much no. I am elated that Elian is with his father, and to go from one newspaper picture to another, evidently very happy to be with his father. Today Elian is finally free. I grieve for that boy has gone through. His mother took certain risks that put him in certain types of trauma and almost killed him while killing her. Are those risks worth it? That is debatable and I will not presume to know the answer. The remaining traumas should have been avoided and could have avoided had the Miami relatives last December turned that boy over to his father. They are responsible for all the abuse and trauma that Elian has gone through since. This issue cuts like a knife here, Marcel. May you never have the experience of being denied your children, and your children each other (as Elian was denied his half brother) because of your political views or where you live or any other irrelevant issue. Should you ever be separated from your children, may the persons who deny you your children abide by court orders - unlike Elian's Miami relatives. May your children never be used for propaganda purposes, and if they are, may they be rescued and returned to you. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 15:16:29 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: fantastic! Thanks for the kind words, Clark! I think we started on the project last November. Les had wanted us to think about all the stuff we wanted to do to the new site over Christmas break and if we thought of something Les could do it! It was really a great joy to redo all of the tabs (others may disagree) and input them all in the new format. I am really pleased with the results! Namaste, Mark NP-Shadows and Light-Woodstock At 1:59 PM -0400 4/23/00, CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: >Just wanted to say congratulations and express my deepest thanks to Sue, >Howard, Marian and Mark again for their amazing, painstaking efforts on the >guitar site. Sue, the newly revamped Sue's Tab's is a wonder of organization >-- extremely helpful to guitarists who want to figure out how Joni plays her >stuff and an enormous tribute to the genius of Joni Mitchell. How many hours >did you spend reworking this amazing site? It's truly a labor of love. - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net Tape trading --> homepage.mac.com/mtd/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 16:44:52 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Joni's management/Gilmore NJC I would love to see Joni's opening act be Cowboy Junkies... wow, what a list! One could endless hours of fun picking out from this list who should do what cover... I see in the paper today that Diana Krall & Trio is playing next weekend in Kalamazoo about a mile from where I used to live, but that it is all sold out. That is a part of the Gilmore Festival, and she is playing in a very intimate setting at the State Theatre. That is where Barenaked Ladies played before they got big... which was not a part of Gilmore! Andre Watts, Michael Feinstein, Marian McPartland, Brad Mehldau Trio, Danilo Perez, Beaux Arts Trio, Ralf Gothoni, Lil' Brian (zydeco) are among others at the Gilmore this year, in the next two weeks. I am now trying to remember why I moved away from Kalamazoo... maybe it was having Gilmore performers of years past such as Bruce Hornsby, Yo Yo Ma, Bela Fleck, Emmanuel Ax, Ray Charles, Jean-Pierre Rampal, all playing too close to the house... :-) I used to live with 1-1.5 miles of all their venues... Gotta go, gotta check the want ads in Kalamazoo... buy my old house back... Vince "P. Henry" wrote: > sue wrote: > >I couldn't help but notice that S.L. Feldman represents Diana. Isn't this the same mangement team that Joni has? They deserve a lot of credit for doing a terrific job of helping get Joni the recognition she deserves. I wonder if they represent some of the other artists at the tribute? Sue> > > well, to investigate, here's their hp: http://www.slfa.com > > and here's thir roster: > Alannah Myles Albert Schultz Alpha Yaya Diallo Amanda Marshall Amy Sky Anne Murray April Wine Ashley MacIsaac Barenaked Ladies Barney Bentall Barra MacNeils Barrage Bif Naked Big Wreck Black Diamond Brothers Creeggan Bruce Guthro Bryan Adams Burton Cummings Captain Tractor Carlos Nunez Chantal Kreviazuk Charlie Major Chieftains Chris Cummings Coco Love Alcorn Colin James & The Little Big Band Copyright Cowboy Junkies Crash Test Dummies David Wilcox Dayna Manning DDT Diana Krall Doug & The Slugs Dr. Yellowfever Dunk Econoline Crush Edwin Emm Gryner Esthero Feeding Like Butterflies Finger Eleven Flashing Lights Furnaceface Gob Grapes of Wrath Harem Scarem Harlequin Helix Holly Cole Honeymoon Suite I Mother Earth Irish Descendants Irish Rovers j. Englishman Jacksoul Jann Arden Jazzberry Ram Jeff Healey Band Jelleestone Jesse Cook Jet Set Satellite Jim Byrnes Jim Witter John McDermott Johnny Favourite Swing Orch. JONI MITCHELL Joydrop Julian Austin Junkhouse Kenny Shields Killjoys Kim > Mitchell Kim Stockwood La Bottine Souriante Laurel MacDonald Lawrence Gowan Leahy Len Lene Marlin Lhasa Lilith Fair Limblifter Local Rabbits Long John Baldry Loverboy MacKeel Made Mahones Marc Jordan Martina McBride Mary Jane Lamond Matthew Good Band Melanie Dekker Melanie Doane Michelle Wright Miller Stain Limit Moffatts Moist Mystery Machine Natalie MacMaster Nelley Furtado Northern Pikes Nylons Our Lady Peace Philosopher Kings Platinum Blonde Pocket Dwellers Prairie Oyster Prozzak Quartetto Gelato Rankins Rascalz Rita MacNeil Road Apples Robert Michaels Ron Sexsmith Rush Rymes with Orange Sarah McLachlan Sass Jordan Serial Joe Sissel Sky Slainte Mhath Sloan Son of Dave souLDecision Special Guests Spirit Of The West Sum 41 Tal Bachman Tara MacLean Templar The Tea Party Thrush Hermit Todd Kerns Band Tom Cochrane Tom Wilson Tony Lee Travoltas Treble Charger Trooper Wesley Chu Wide Mouth Mason Wild Strawberries Yve And Adam Zuckerbaby LITTLE BIG MAN BOOKING Arnold Bernard Butler Beth > Orton Bic Runga Candy Butchers Catatonia Charla! > tans UK Cyclefly David Mead dEUS Devlins Dido Eagle Eye Cherry Embrace Faithless Fish Gay Dad Getaway People Gomez Gravel Pit Harvey Danger James Kendall Payne Lamb Letters To Cleo Levellers Lilith Fair Liz Phair Longpigs Manic Street Preachers Mark Lizotte Mayfield Four Neneh Cherry P.O.D. Paul Kelly Republica Rialto Richard Ashcroft Robbie Williams Shack Splashdown Stereophonics Stroke Superdrag Symposium Todd Thibaud Tricky Trinket Unbelievable Truth Whale Wood > > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 18:06:46 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Where charity and love prevail NJC MGVal@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/22/00 11:37:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > dsk11@bellatlantic.net writes: > > << Ubi caritas et amor Deus ibi est. > (Where true love and kindness are found, God is always there.) > >> > > What a lovely phrase and so incredibly true! > > I read this and thought of the companion piece: > > "Let there be peace on Earth and let it begin with me." Where "peace" = "love > and kindness," reminding us all that God resides, first and foremost with us > and we are God's ambassadors. > MG, Debra, and friends: The text as I know it (to 'Ubi caritas et amor Deus ibi est') is "Where charity and love prevail" and we sang it most recently last Thursday at our Maundy Thursday service. The tune that we use is called "Twenty-fourth" and is by Lucius Chapin (1760-1842). The text is a Latin hymn from the 9th century; this is a translation by Omar Westendorf as used in the Lutheran Book of Worship. Where charity and love prevail (Twenty-fourth) Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found; brought together by Christ's love, by love we thus are bound. With grateful joy and holy fear, God's charity we learn; Let us with heart and mind and soul now love God in return. Let us recall that in our midst dwells Christ, God's holy Son; as members of each body joined, in Christ we are made one. Let strife among us be unknown; let all contentions cease. be God's the glory that we seek, and Christ our only peace. For love excludes no race or clan that names the Savior's name; God's family embraces all, our Father is the same. We now forgive each other's faults as we our own confess, that we may love each other well in Christian gentleness. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 18:31:31 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Nuriel NJC Ivo laughed and said “no, you fool – she’s B E H I N D this!!!” I asked him “are you her representative?” He laughed again and said “my relationship with joni is a private matter!!!” Then he hung up the phone. What the hell? This is a joke, right? Who's behind this? ROTFL:-} ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:58:53 -0700 From: "Ray & Cathy" Subject: re: Joni Today Show Interview (more thoughts) Kakki writes: Subject: Re: NJC Elian > > Today Elian is finally free. I grieve for that boy has gone through. His > mother took certain risks that put him in certain types of trauma and almost > killed him while killing her. Are those risks worth it? That is debatable and > I will not presume to know the answer. It would seem the mother cared strongly enough about her child to try to remove him from Cuba and his father. She died in the process of doing what she thought was right for her son. Whatever the merits or otherwise of the relatives actions, the violent 'rescue' of the child cannot be right. One may think it is right to return the child to his father and Cuba. One may think it was abusive of his rlatives to do as they have done. In so thinking, it doesn't do to ignore the wrongs on the other side. Had it been both parents who did this, and both died, they would be hailed as heroes and the authorites would be milking it for all it was wroth. Sometimes, it is right and proper to deny parents access to their children. There cannot be set rules. Each case has to be judged according to the situation and the descision MUST be child centered. Only then is their a hope of doing right by the child. It would seem in this case that nobody is really giving much thought to Elian, only to their views of parenthood and/or Cuba. Political views and belief systems(like religion) are for ADULTS and thay should not be forced upon children. Indoctrination of children is abuse -with far reaching effects. what you teach a child stays with them and even after yeasr as an adult, it can be very difficult to undo that teaching. Political/religious beliefs should not be taught to children-except as comparisons-i.e teach about religous/politcal systems but not present them as facts or the only 'true way' etc. It isn't ignorance that causes this abuse. Adults KNOW what effect it has on children which is why it is done. To produce adults and think the way they do. Control and power is the name of the game. 'give me a child till he is 7 and I will give you the man' was not just a glib remark. There is so much ignorance and dishonesty amongst people about themselves and why they think/act the way they do, it sometimes seems the world is a hopeless place. Even as regards the abuse of children, people cannot or will not see the obvious. Violence towards children is condoned by many. Mutilation of children is carried daily in the name of religion or long outdated medical science. people have children like they were buying a new car. They have children and then expect them to be what they want them to be. Get the rasing of children right and it will go a long long way to having a world that is right. belief systems that have as their basis the belief that children are inherently bad, 'are born in sin', an must be conrolled and coerced, must be ditched if we are to stand any chance of a decent world. (I am not just talking bad foreignors here!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 20:20:34 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: My Joni Mitchell Site For those new to the list I have a small Joni Mitchell Site at http://millennium.fortunecity.com/sherwood/452/ There you can find -midi files -icons -a cursor -Joni Mitchell Art Screen Saver ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 17:31:15 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni Today Show Interview (more thoughts) > I think it's simplistic to attribute her relationship ups and downs to being > an only child. No one has a perfect relationship with all the loved ones in > their lives. There are so many other factors in life that can bring > challenges to any particular relationship. And now I know some of you out > there who know I am also an only child are now thinking "aha, she's > defensive!" Well, from my own personal experience and from what I've read > in studies, only children *do* sometimes have difficulty understanding > where other people are coming from because they have not been exposed to the > give and take battles and negotiations experienced by children with > siblings. They are also very used to and content with being alone - solitude > is a natural state to them - and tend to be more independent. It's not so > much that the world revolves around them, but rather, that they tend to live > in their own world. Not a recipe for great success in all relationships, > but definitely a good recipe for stimulating creativity. I was gone all day yesterday and am just now catching up. I was wondering what reactions would be to my post on this subject. I worried that I might have tread on some toes or hurt some feelings. Whenever it appears that you are generalizing, you almost always get into trouble. First of all, thank you Kakki for not flogging me & burning me at the stake. I agree that to say all of Joni's relationship difficulties stem from her being an only child is simplistic. And I also realize that not every one who is an only child grows up to be a certain way. I certainly never meant to imply that. I hope you know, Kakki, that I hold you in very high regard and that I never intended to say that you or anyone else who grew up without syblings is self-centered. I *have*, however, seen & heard about people that were affected by being the only child in certain ways. The co-worker I spoke of loves her step-daughter very much and always speaks of her with pride and love. However, she did say that this step-daughter grew up to be a certain way because she missed out on sharing with syblings while growing up and had a hard time later in life when she was no longer the sole focus of attention. She also said that an only child often tends to have those kinds of issues. True of some, maybe. But it would certainly be wrong to assume that it is true in all cases. As far as Joni's concerned, I know there are people on the list that don't like any kind of prying or speculation about her personal life. It makes me uncomfortable at times myself. I did have a bit of a moral debate with myself before I sent my post. But Joni & her music are so fascinating to me that I can't help speculating about what makes her tick. And I wanted to find out what other list members thought. This is a discussion list, after all! I agree that Joni's giving her daughter up was a devating event in her life and I think the mourning for that loss has colored so many of the songs she's written in one way or another. And my heart goes out to her now. I'm sure Laura is right. There must be many thorny issues between these two to be unravelled and the unravelling is going to be painful for both of them. Certainly it's highly likely that this would put Joni into a funk. There was such an exhilirating high after the reunion and now the reality sets in. But I do think that maybe Joni paints Myrtle a little bit too much the villain. Papa brought home the sugar, after all. Without a brother or sister to share all that affection & attention with, who's going to teach the child that other things matter besides her own wants & needs? If Bill isn't going to do it, poor Myrtle has to play the bad guy. From her own descriptions of herself, I'm sure Joni was a handful in her teen years and probably before. I remember thinking that my parents were so ridiculous and out of touch when I was in my early 20s. I thought all they were concerned about was money & what would the neighbors think. It took me awhile but I've finally come to realize all the sacrifices they made & the struggle it was to raise three kids on one salary. More importantly, I have come to realize that if I have any moral fiber at all, it is largely attributable to my mother & father who love me unconditionally & set a wonderful example of self-effacing integrity & honesty for me. Lastly, I wonder about some of the lyrics of Joni's songs: I'm so hard to handle, I'm selfish and I'm sad I tried to run away myself To run away & wrestle with my ego During times like these the wise are influential *They can bear the imperfections*, they can keep the harmonies No doubt about it, no doubt that's essential No doubt that's *always been a tricky one for me* Last chance lost We talk of love in terms of sacrifice and compromise .......... Last chance lost The hero cannot make the change Last chance lost The shrew will not be tamed. Now I would agree that if a relationship has come down to nothing but sacrifice & compromise then it isn't healthy and needs a serious overhauling or to be put out of it's misery. But anybody who has ever been in a long term relationship knows that making it work involves a certain amount of sacrifice & compromise. It's just the hard, cold reality whenever two people are in any kind of relationship - family, co-workers, friends, significant others - both parties can't always have everything thing their own way. I think that may be harder for some than others and I think Joni is one or those that it is harder for. For whatever reason. I don't mean that as a criticism. God knows I'm far from perfect & have no business judging Joni or anyone else. It's just a speculation based on observation. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 17:32:01 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: NJC Elian Actually, according to the 60 minutes interviews, mom left Cuba because she was following a criminal boyfriend. He had to leave to avoid jail in Cuba. She left for love, (the strongest poison and medicine of all) not politics. catman wrote: > It would seem the mother cared strongly enough about her child to try to > remove him from Cuba and his father. > She died in the process of doing what she thought was right for her son. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 17:50:37 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: toontown, Krall and giving up baby If anything her wealth that came so soon after, > made her feel more heartache for giving up her child. > > > Penny Oooo!! This is good Penny! Some of those lyrics that seem to express guilt about being wealthy & famous could very well have sprung from this place, I think! Nice insight! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:03:52 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Today Show Interview (more thoughts) Mark wrote: << I did have a bit of a moral debate with myself before I sent my post. But Joni & her music are so fascinating to me that I can't help speculating about what makes her tick. And I wanted to find out what other list members thought. This is a discussion list, after all!>> I'm glad the part of you that wanted to post it won the debate, Mark! I know that there's a major difference between prying into someone's personal biz out of morbid curiosity and analyzing a person's life milestones to better understand the impact it's had on her art. I believe the latter is where most of keep the discussion. << Lastly, I wonder about some of the lyrics of Joni's songs: I'm so hard to handle, I'm selfish and I'm sad I tried to run away myself To run away & wrestle with my ego >> I always felt with both of these lines like she was parrotting back things that people had said ABOUT her, not things she believed about herself. The first one, all those things would be what her lover accused her of being, and she follows it with "now I've gone and lost the best baby that I've ever had".... The "Coyote" line I particularly felt was tongue-in-cheek, especially when she adds "great big ego" on the S&L version. Anyway, I'm certainly not in disagreement with anything you've said, and I think the study of her being an only child and how that affects her relationships, and how it ALL affects her art, is a very fascinating take. Bob ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #211 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?