From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #162 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, March 30 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 162 Ashara has set up a "Wally Breese Memorial Fund," with all donations going directly into the upkeep of the JoniMitchell.com website. Wally kept the website going with his own funds, and it will now be up to Jim to continue. If you would like to donate to this fund, please make all checks payable to: Jim Johanson and send them to: Ashara Stansfield P.O. Box 215 Topsfield, MA 01983 USA ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage can be found at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: More on American Beauty (NJC) [David Wright ] last comments on American Beauty (NJC) [CarltonCT@aol.com] Alan's Creative Writing Project (SJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] cd [Jerry Notaro ] Globe and Mail Review [James Leahy ] Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC ["H.D. Motyl" ] NYC Tickets [Emily Kirk Gray ] Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC [catman ] Covers Project [SMEBD@aol.com] Joni at Bread and Roses [Steve Dulson ] Re: More on American Beauty (NJC) [jan gyn ] Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC [catman ] Re: Got The CDs [Randy Remote ] RE: Kevin Spaceman NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] tribute tickets? ["Bryan Thomas" ] HITS [catman ] Re: Joni at Bread and Roses [Randy Remote ] Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC ["H.D. Motyl" ] NJC ["H.D. Motyl" ] Tribute Ticket fiasco [TanyerSCO@aol.com] Re: NJC [Don Rowe ] Re: NJC ["H.D. Motyl" ] Re: American Beauty (NJC) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni in S'toon (njc) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC ["catman" ] Re: BSN Review from SonicNet [waytoblu@mindspring.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 03:07:07 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: More on American Beauty (NJC) Hello Clark and Alison, and I totally agree about the brilliance of American Beauty. I just wanted to add my own two cents about the movie: (Be warned, this discusses major plot points.) Mark wrote: > And the one character who feels something is wrong in his life & tries > to break free does so by returning to his adolescence and becoming > obsessed with a teenage girl. What's the point? Hello Mark, I saw it as rather the other way around: it was the sudden emotional charge that he got from his unexpected infatuation with the girl that shook his complacency and made something coalesce in him -- his determination to break free and his new sense of purpose. To me, the film was about the power of the erotic to transform and intensify out lives, and challenge our complacency and our assumptions -- the film conveyed that special tingling sense of living more intensely in the moment than usual. It can be a powerful agent for change. That's the point, to me. It's such a refreshingly pro-sexuality film. One of the things I thought was daring and surprising and great about the film was how it used fantasy scenes and symbolism (the rose petals) to expressionistically convey this erotic element. That scene with Kevin Spacey lying blissfully in bed with the rose petals falling down on him totally conveyed the feeling (that we've all had, I think?) of being in love or having a crush on someone, and just lying there thinking about them (even if you're not with them) gives you that tingly feeling....that charge you get. In fact I think *all* the characters, not just Lester, sense something wrong in their lives, and those erotic/emotional connections are a catalyst for all of them -- they're all shaken up by it. Ricky Fitts and Janie (the daughter) find this in their relationship with each other (I think their scenes together are so sweet). Annette Bening, lying in bed after having sex with the Real Estate King, says something like, "That's just what I needed!" (This is part of where some people see as sexism -- the idea that the women are defined by the men in their lives -- which I can see, but I'd like to think, rather, that it's a commentary on the power of that connection between people, both men *and* women.) To me this is where the visual element of the film comes in: everything is so beautiful and so *shiny* in the film. It makes everything seem so immediate and intense, yet so perfect that you know it's fleeting. And all the people have the most beautiful, unusual *eyes* in this film (and they say the eyes are windows on the soul): Wes Bentley (he has such a perfect intense, startled look), Mena Suvari, Allison Janney (Ricky's mother). (The erotic element is also tied in with the themes of voyeurism expressed in all the shots through windows, in mirrors, in Ricky's camera, etc.) I think (or hope) it's not a contradiction to say that the film is pro-sexuality when all the excitement ends up with Kevin Spacey getting shot. I think whole ending is so magical because you (or I do, at least) feel everything building, all the threads coming together, and the sense that everyone's lives will be changed is tangible. Even the tragedy doesn't diminish the magic (though the film does dodge the aftermath a bit) -- it becomes a part of the magic, the beauty. The magic redeems it. Clark wrote: > What I loved about AMERICAN BEAUTY is that you get an insight into the > unsympathetic behavior of all the protagonists which makes all of them > sympathetic. [snip] > Lester feels unappreciated and > is treated poorly -- why shouldn't he indulge in the things of his youth that > make him feel alive again? He chooses poorly in getting interested in a > teenage girl I thought this is a complicated part of Lester's unsympatheticness. Being liberated doesn't mean just doing whatever you want whenever you feel like it (e.g., wacking off in bed if somebody else in it is uncomfortable with you doing it -- as in the movie), or buying the car you always wanted. You have to take responsibility -- I think the movie hints at these implications, for example where Lester gets a job at the burger place because he wants as little responsibility as possible. Another example: if Lester has (re)discovered the liberating power of *honesty*, why are we supposed to cheer him on (as we obviously are) when he blackmails his company by threatening to claim sexual harassment -- i.e., to *lie* -- to get a better severance package? (I would love to rewrite the script a tiny bit and have Carolyn nail Lester to the wall about some of these things. As you say, Clark, she has a lot of legitimate complaints about him.) I think one of the movie's strengths is that we love Lester anyway, as you say, because he's human and flawed like we all are. I did feel that the screenplay occasionally sells Lester's character short to go for the easy crowd-pleaser. What also made me uncomfortable, and where I thought the real sexism of the film was, was the further implication (unintentional or not) that once men rediscover the liberating power of honesty and the passion of their youth, they'll reassert themselves and reclaim their proper place (which women have stolen from them) as Heads of the Household. I thought this is especially implied in the plate-throwing dinner scene (included in the clip at the Academy Awards); other people in the theater when I saw it (twice) laughed and cheered at that scene but I thought it was rather horrifying. It seemed fairly honest and realistic to me (though I wouldn't know) that a man of his age would be so attracted to one of his daughter's classmates. And I think there's nothing at all wrong with the emotion itself, either. But I felt that the crucial scene for Lester is at the end where he realizes that he's about to do the wrong thing by having sex with the girl, and he says no to her, very sensitively. He takes responsibility. I think all that is handled so well. > He [Ricky Fitts] lives in a beautiful but lonely world. His love for > Janie is illusory -- he thinks she is like him, but what she responds > to in him is his total admiration for her, his obsession. I thought what she responded to was that he was so HOT! Maybe I'm just projecting. ;) > One of the best scenes among so many brilliant scenes is when Lester's > wife comes home, punch drunk from her affair with Buddy, the real > estate king. Suddenly, Carolyn is like the same fun and wild girl that > Lester fell in love with. For a moment, the two of them are inches > close to a potentiality for love and connection they haven't had in > years when Carolyn panics about the fabric of her couch getting damaged. It is a very good scene. It's one of several, though, where I wish the script had gone inside Carolyn's head a little more. It seemed to me like Carolyn realizes and regrets having broken the moment, but before she can say anything, Lester gets all angry, and she understandably responds defensively, and the chance to repair the moment is gone ("last chance lost") -- they're both at fault. But we really only see this from Lester's side. Incidentally, I thought The Insider was silly and overblown. All that faux-Gregorian chant (by Lisa Gerrard) while people agonized over doing the right thing. I thought the women characters were particularly one-dimensional, too. I preferred the director Michael Mann's earlier film "Heat," which had the same lonely, romantic mood (even more intense, if anything) and visual style but with more of a context in which it worked because it played off the cops-and-robbers genre. I agree that Russell Crowe's performance in The Insider was amazing though -- practically a physical transformation. He deserved the Oscar at least as much as any of the nominees. (The guy who played Mike Wallace should have been nominated for supporting actor, too.) I saw The English Patient in the theater when it came out....I liked it at the time, but all it left in my mind is a two-and-a-half hour (or however long it was) blank spot. Enough from me. Take care, - --David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:24:38 PST From: "Jerome Gonzales" Subject: Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC To be honest, knowing people who know stuff doesn't constitute solid proof of someone's sexuality. Nobody except Jodie Foster and her lover (whomever that may be) should feel entitled to knowing details of her sexuality. Ditto for Kevin Spacey. I personally have never heard him deny the gay rumours just deflect them. His right, actually. To be fair, I may be feeling bitchier re: this subject because of Babs Walters' witchunt on Ricky Martin. Not my cup of tea musically but a really nice guy and the poking around is getting pretty mean.... Jerome, who knows what it feels like to have people speculate about none of their business. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:13:54 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: last comments on American Beauty (NJC) We all know our responses to art are subjective, and so we can all agree to disagree. Can't agree with you, Howard, about THE INSIDER which was not well written. You can't have good film making without a good script and that one showed no capacity for brevity and the end result is a long, meandering movie with no center. It's interesting that what you saw in it was loneliness -- though that was part of the experience of its protagonist, that's not what I would focus on in my discussion of the film. As someone who lives in Hollywood and works in the film industry, I forget that other movie viewers don't necessarily see every important film in its opening week the way most of us do here. Most of us who love film to the point where we have decided to work in this industry cannot wait for anything to come out on video or DVD because that's a degraded experience. The other up side about seeing movies as they come out is that you get to see a fresh, clean print in a theater with a large crowd which is part of the movie going experience, especially if that film is a comedy or action piece. As well, you get to see a film before its bits are exposed to you at lunch, dinner conversations or during Internet discussions. So my apologies to anyone for ever so slightly tipping the hand of the outcome of AMERICAN BEAUTY, but in all fairness, the film has been out since September. If you listened carefully to Billy Crystal's song about the film at the awards, you would know who the killer was and what his/her conflict was which is the real surprise of the film. More importantly, since I have seen the film at least thirty times, you do know that Lester is going to be killed from the very beginning. The film starts with a video clip of Lester's daughter Janie asking someone (I won't be specific) to kill her dad for her. In the next scene, Lester, tells you he *will* be dead in less than a year. Take it from me, I've seen it. More importantly, as Bob mentioned, the film is not a whodunit. It's a drama with an unconventional structure and its narrative pull is not a result of figuring out a murder which happens at the end of the first act -- the film *ends* with the murder, and starts with the same murder. The real surprise isn't who pulled the trigger but why. I'm sorry, but it's a little hypocritical that someone would criticize me for giving away a small part of the ending by someone who gives it all away in his next post with very little warning. I will not engage in any further discussion of this issue and will be forever vigilant in guarding the secrets of movies. Peace, Clark NP: Scritti Politti, Anhomie and Bonhomie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:54:51 +1000 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Alan's Creative Writing Project (SJC) Just a quick thank you to those people who have said they will contribute. BTW, I now have 15 selections from Joni's first 8 albums listed on my web site http://www.users.bigpond.com/AlanLorimer/welcome.htm Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:02:36 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Got The CDs Hi Bob! I got the package today and the CDs arrived without a scratch. Thank you very much for the pleasure it gave me. The anticipation and just by looking at what is obviously a labor-of-love project made me excited. A few things... I thought some of the artists' covers were too respectful such that even the way Joni phrases words as well as her propensity to soar high with her soprano voice in her early years were very evident in the versions. The one that moved me was Brian Kennedy and Tori Amos' "A Case of You" and Lani Hall's "Banquet". I don't know what album Minnie Riperton's version of Joni's "Woman of Heart and Mind" was taken, but I remembered hearing a slightly shorter version of that song from one of my cassette tapes. Will check this and if these versions are different, I will send you the other version. Was it just me or was Joni audible in Graham Nash's "Another Sleepy Song"? Thanks once again for the great CDs! Joseph np: Joan Baez "Dida" duet with Joni. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:32:36 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: cd Have had a few days now to listen to lister Fred Simon's Songs of My Youth, which includes cover of some of my favorite Joni and Beatles songs. They are all wonderful solo piano solos performed by Fred. Kakki alerted us early to this great cd, and I agree that it is a real joy to listen to. Contact Fred if you want to order a copy. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:25:23 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Globe and Mail Review Mitchell's jazz plaintively mimes arc of modern love BOTH SIDES NOW Mark Miller http://www.GlobeAndMail.CA/gam/Music/20000330/TARECO.html Thursday, March 30, 2000 Joni Mitchell Reprise Rating: **** Joni Mitchell made her sympathies for jazz known early in her career when she began to employ jazz musicians as accompanists, beginning in 1973 with Tom Scott and the L.A. Express on the LP Court and Spark. They played on her terms though, not she on theirs. She confronted jazz more directly when she collaborated in 1978 with Charles Mingus on Mingus -- still her album, not his. It wasn't until 1998 when she sang The Man I Love and Summertime on Herbie Hancock's Gershwin's World, that she gave herself over entirely to the tradition. Both Sides Now is the next step, and a successful, if subtly inconsistent one at that -- 10 standards, as well as two of Mitchell's older songs, with full orchestral accompaniment arranged and conducted by Vince Mendoza. The material is ordered to mirror "the arc of a modern romantic relationship," from the early infatuation of You're My Thrill to the reflection of Both Sides Now. That's a very Joni-like thing for Mitchell to have done, of course, even if producer Larry Klein calls the concept "innovative" -- and even if the late Trudy Desmond made an album, R.S.V.P., along the exactly the same lines back in 1988. Mitchell doesn't always sound like Mitchell in this new and transformative context; she comes across instead like someone who has listened a lot to Billie Holiday and at least a little to Sarah Vaughan. The strongest of her borrowings can seem studied and sometimes rather strangulated (the untoward mannerisms of You're My Thrill for example) but, these specific points of style aside, Mitchell's singing is remarkable for its absolute certainty of pitch and phrasing. When she has everything in balance and under control -- and when Mendoza doesn't overcook the violins and violas -- the performances are simply ravishing. You've Changed and Answer Me, My Love are especially moving, with saxophonist Wayne Shorter, a Mitchell stalwart since 1977, adding plaintive solos to each. Mendoza's understated writing on Mitchell's A Case of You and Both Sides Now is transcendent; Mitchell may handle them both a shade too dramatically, but it's not hard -- indeed it's rather enticing -- to imagine her doing an entire album of her own songs in this same, classic setting. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:29:31 -0600 From: "H.D. Motyl" Subject: Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------35D9D01938EF1967E60B63A1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > does it bother anyone else that Kevin Spacey is so insistent about his > > > > (supposed) heterosexuality? > > > > > > Because in this homphobic world, he would lose in every which way. Fear > I > > > guess prevents him being honest. unfortunately, if what you say is true, > he > > > is also perpetuating the homophobia and therefore committing an offense > on > > > all gay people. > > > > > > > And this is exactly the problem. By his heated denials, he plays into the > > homophobia and it is very offensive to gay people. All his H'wood pals > know > > about his proclivities and they don't care. If he comes out, is he going > to > > be shunned? I don't think so. > > Here in the UK, no he wouldn't. In The USA? I would think it would end his > film career. Rupert Everett's career hasn't ended. The guy from Frasier's (I'm a bad gay for not remembering it right now) career hasn't ended. Ellen Degerneres, Anne Heche, Melissa Etheridge--their careers haven't ended. And Kevin's career, as Jody's career, hasn't ended under the weight of all those rumours. And I am not even asking him to come out completely, in some ways I understand his reasons not to, but don't deny it so strongly. But let's consider this--who contributed to the amazing success of "Philadelphia"? It wasn't just the gay cineastes--there were lots and lots of straight people going to see this film. For the film of its kind, it made a lot of money. yes, it had Tom Hanks and Denzel, but it still made lots of money. (There are other Tom films and/or Denzel movies that have not made a lot of money.) I think there are more compassionate, more "live and let live" people out there than we still believe. When I live an openly gay life in the suburban company where I used to work, those people got used to something they hadn't been. They asked questions, joked, related stories and everything was fine. The more people in the public eye who come out, the more "the other people" see we are just as normal as they are. And then, the homophobes and homohaters will have more of an uphill battle to keep us in our place--wherever they think our place should be. . . . Well, that was something, so early in the morning. Howard M. - --------------35D9D01938EF1967E60B63A1 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="howard_scptv.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for H.D. Motyl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="howard_scptv.vcf" begin:vcard n:Motyl;Howard tel;fax:312-421-7714 tel;work:312-421-7711 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:SCPTV Worldwide adr:;;400 North May Street, Suite 201;Chicago;Illinois;60622; version:2.1 email;internet:howard_scptv@interaccess.com title:Director, Creative Development note;quoted-printable:"Anytime you have the opportunity to accomplish something for someone coming behind you and you don't,=0D=0Ayou are wasting your time on this earth."=0D=0A Roberto Clemente x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Howard Motyl end:vcard - --------------35D9D01938EF1967E60B63A1-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:54:36 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: NYC Tickets hi all -- not sure if this is old news, but... there is an ad in this week's Village Voice which says BSN tickets for May 22 (what about May 23, i ask?) at MSG theater go on sale monday april 3 at 9 AM. hope this helps! - -- emily ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:55:18 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC > > > Rupert Everett's career hasn't ended. He is British. > The guy from Frasier's (I'm a bad gay > for not remembering it right now) career hasn't ended. Have never seen him in anything but Frazier. > Ellen Degerneres, Anne > Heche, niether are exactly big movie stars! > Melissa Etheridge--their careers haven't ended. and she is a rock star! > And Kevin's career, as > Jody's career, hasn't ended under the weight of all those rumours. No they are just rumours. Perhaps I am wrong, but I do think both would sink out of Hollywood if they were out. Especially Spacey. > > > And I am not even asking him to come out completely, in some ways I understand > his reasons not to, but don't deny it so strongly. I think every gay person should be out. Then the climate would change and people would see that without us, much would suffer. > > > But let's consider this--who contributed to the amazing success of > "Philadelphia"? It wasn't just the gay cineastes--there were lots and lots of > straight people going to see this film. For the film of its kind, it made a > lot of money. yes, it had Tom Hanks and Denzel, but it still made lots of > money. (There are other Tom films and/or Denzel movies that have not made a > lot of money.) > > I think there are more compassionate, more "live and let live" people out there > than we still believe. If that were so, the anti gay laws would not exist! Gay people would have exactly the same rights as str8 people. Gay people would share the same marriage/pension rights etc. people wouldn't write to me and state their 'religious belief that gay people are behaving against Gods will', and think they are not bigoted! In fact, it would be as frowned upon to write/speak homphobic stuff as it is anti race stuff. What has happened frequently on this list shows that is not the case.Yes, their are some str8 people who are as you describe. However, if they were as many as you say, we would be living in a different world. bw colin > When I live an openly gay life in the suburban company > where I used to work, those people got used to something they hadn't been. > They asked questions, joked, related stories and everything was fine. The more > people in the public eye who come out, the more "the other people" see we are > just as normal as they are. And then, the homophobes and homohaters will have > more of an uphill battle to keep us in our place--wherever they think our place > should be. . . . > > Well, that was something, so early in the morning. > > Howard M. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard Motyl > Director, Creative Development > SCPTV Worldwide > > Howard Motyl > Director, Creative Development > SCPTV Worldwide > 400 North May Street, Suite 201 Fax: 312-421-7714 > Chicago Work: 312-421-7711 > Illinois Netscape Conference Address > 60622 Specific DLS Server > "Anytime you have the opportunity to accomplish something for someone coming behind you and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente > Additional Information: > Last Name Motyl > First Name Howard > Version 2.1 - -- "When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - and unlike his passengers who were screaming in terror and hanging onto their seats!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:36:29 EST From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Covers Project n a message dated 03/29/2000 10:51:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << My few searches online have not come up with anything yet. Although I see she is on a just-released "Tribute to Duke Ellington" that sounds fantastic and includes a performance by Jon Hendricks. (my credit card started trembling at the selections) Also noticed that she has covered "You've Changed". So do I get Joni-related bonus points? ;-) >> Joni-related Bonus Points: 25 (Nice find on both accounts--hence the points. However, your find will cost me, as my credit card is starting to warm up as I type, and therefore I must deduct 35 points.) :-) Current Score: Stephen: 0 Kakki: -10 << Well, the next step may be a search of old vinyls or resorting to outright cheating! ;-D >> All is fair in love and war and all things Joni--cheat, girl!!!! :-) Cause know I will!! Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:38:36 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joni at Bread and Roses Randy Remote wrote: >She did this at the 1980 Bread and Roses benefit in Berkeley, >for one song, Sweet Sucker Dance, a duet with Herbie Hancock >on piano. I think we've been through this before, but Joni did at least 2 B & R benefis. I saw her backed by (just) Herbie on 9/2/1978, and they did several songs, though I'm ashamed to admit I can't remember which. I have photos at http://members.aol.com/tinkerjoni/joni2.html ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:14:00 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: More on American Beauty (NJC) I liked AB. The imagery had a strange 'kodachrome video' sort of look. Sometimes I felt like I was watching a video performance piece. I also liked 'Boys Don't Cry.' And Angeline Jolie was great in 'Girl, Interrupted.' But I think my favorite movie of 1999 was 'The Blair Witch Project.' - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:27:32 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC > > > If that were so, the anti gay laws would not exist! Gay people would have exactly the same rights as str8 people. Gay people would share the same marriage/pension > rights etc. people wouldn't write to me and state their 'religious belief that gay people are behaving against Gods will', and think they are not bigoted! In fact, it > would be as frowned upon to write/speak homphobic stuff as it is anti race stuff. What has happened frequently on this list shows that is not the case.Yes, their are > some str8 people who are as you describe. However, if they were as many as you say, we would be living in a different world. > bw > colin I have been thinking about this all afternoon. My normal reaction to this is either intellectual or angry. But you know what? it hurts. I am sick to death of hearing day in day out, in one form or another, that I as a gay man, am not equal to to my str8 brothers and sisters. I am sick of hearing that god hates me. I am sick of being told that my love for John is not valid. That our almost 19 years together mean nothing. That our sex lives are perverted and unhaelthy. That we are a dnger to children. that we are the cause of the preoblems in society. I am still amazed at the gaul and ignorance of people who will say to my face or vis email that they think i am less than them. Until recently, I was conversing via email with someone from here for a couple of years. out of the blue, I get an email telling me what they think of my sexuality and it wasn't positve. thta really hurt. Not that this person would give a toss about that. thier judgement is more important to them than the feelings of a fellow human being. I did not respond in anyway to that person. i have learned not to. it is a total waste of time. i got burned that way with some woman who holds equally bigoted views and pretends she is ever so liberal and nice when she cares not a damn for anyones feelings. now i just delete or, if in real time, do not respond. There is no point bashing one's head against a brick wall.I have been hugely disappointed to see some of the homphobic ranting that has gone on here. Disappointed because most people just let it go and pass no comment. So when i comment i get labelled a trouble maker or 'agenda ranter'. That feeling of being at home here left quite a while ago. I know I am not the only gay person on this list who feels this way for they have said so to me privately and they feel it is not worth their energy to say so publicly. I can't say I blame them For a great deal of my life I lived with a terrible sense of shame and fear. Shame permeates EVERY area of you life and with it one cannot be happy. Ditto for fear. I have been told all my life that my feelings don't count. That my feelings are wrong. that I am evil and worthless and will rot in Hell. Today, I have emptied this shit out of me and placed all that shame back where it belongs-on to the bigots. THEY are the ones who carry this shame. THEY are the ones who will have to face up to it one day and be held accountable for their evil and their cruelty, and their lack of tolerance and lack of genuine feeling for others. They are the ones with blood on their hands. So underneath all the anger, the politcizing, the intellualizing, we are talking about peoples feelings and those feelings are hurt. It causes pain, immense pain and it takes time and energy and strength to work thru that, all of which could be better spent doing something else!!! > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:58:04 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Got The CDs Joseph Palis wrote: > Was it just me or was Joni audible in Graham Nash's "Another Sleepy [SIC] Song"? Joni's classy scat vocal begins right before the last verse and continues to the end, where she adds some double tracking. BTW, the acoustic guitarist on this song is long time Joni and CSN confidante and photog Joel Bernstein. At the beginning you can hear Nash say "start playing Joel..." RR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:33:45 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Kevin Spaceman NJC i hate to jump into this wonderful thread when i have only 10 minutes, but i was in a gay chat room last night until 5 in the morning trying to make the same point as howard's. i will say only one thing now and leave but i promise [or threaten] to come back with more later. my motto is: the more visible AS A MEMBER OF A COMMUNITY, the less vulnerable. i'm not talking about flaunting your identity when your life is in danger here. still, the more you try to stay in the closet, the more they'll try to drag you out and taunt you and disrespect you. and i haven't even begun to discusss self-esteem and all the rest of the issues yet. so i'll hold my peace for a few hours and tell you a story later on. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:30:47 -0500 From: "Bryan Thomas" Subject: tribute tickets? I'm getting nervous about the April 6 tribute show. The Joni site says tickets go on sale noon tomorrow (Mar 31), but postings to the list have said today (Mar 30). I just called Ticketmaster and they had no clue about the show. Same with the web site. Hmmmm. Anyone else having dumb luck? I'm going to be in NYC for a work-related conference next week, so I'll be in town, and I'll cry myself to sleep if I'm in a stuffy hotel room while Joni's peers pay tribute to her a few blocks away. So... any more word on how to get tickets? I'm worried that Ticketmaster isn't involved. Is it strictly box office sales? Thanks, B. - --- BRYAN THOMAS. Acoustic punk soul. http://www.bryanthomas.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:39:35 +0100 From: catman Subject: HITS I was listening today to HITS, having only recenly bought it(cos it was cheap!). Listening to this, if one didn't know all the songs were being sung by the same person, one would think that there were at least different persons singing. It really brings home the marked change in her voice. Urge For Going, BYT and then Come In From The Cold and Chinese Cafe. Theyjust do not sound like the same singer. Although I like both voices, I do have a preference for her HOSL onwards voice. The early voice grates after a while and I don't a;lways make it the entire way thru the cd's. I guess my favourite voice is on NRH and TI and HOSL and DED, but then they are my fav albums anyhow. Although I do like her voice on STAS, another favourite. Funny how that first album voice sounds like much later albums. maybe her quip about helium is not just jest! - -- "When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - and unlike his passengers who were screaming in terror and hanging onto their seats!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:40:57 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni at Bread and Roses Thanks for the pix! There is a Joni-Firesign Theatre connection! (Joni onstage with FT's David Ossman). She sure looked weird in that army getup, though.... I know Rolling Stone ran a pic from that show, too. RR Steve Dulson wrote: > > Randy Remote wrote: > > >She did this at the 1980 Bread and Roses benefit in Berkeley, > >for one song, Sweet Sucker Dance, a duet with Herbie Hancock > >on piano. > > I think we've been through this before, but Joni did at least 2 B & R > benefis. I saw her backed by (just) Herbie on 9/2/1978, and they did > several songs, though I'm ashamed to admit I can't remember which. > I have photos at http://members.aol.com/tinkerjoni/joni2.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:47:25 -0600 From: "H.D. Motyl" Subject: Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------8242DE17D0BD91A3185977A7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > So underneath all the anger, the politcizing, the intellualizing, we are talking about peoples feelings and those feelings are hurt. It causes pain, immense pain and it > takes time and energy and strength to work thru that, all of which could be better spent doing something else!!! I am with you on this, my brother. I get angry about the duplicity, and get especially angry when the duplicity comes from gay folk. I am doing a CD Rom project with a friend of mine. It is part of a larger CD Rom offering that is called "The Home". Each artist takes a room and does their thing with that room. My friend and I decided to take "The Closet". The person putting together the entire project, a hetero woman, was all for it. Generally, the idea is that the viewer hears different coming out stories as s/he creates a person. (If it's confusing, let it be, I don't want to go into the whole process becuz it's not the point of this post). What we need are gay men to go on camera, fully clothed, and answer five questions about coming out. Things like "Who was the first person you told?" "What is your idea of coming out?" "What happened when you told your family?" Kind of simple straightforward questions. Most people considered it, but became reticent after they heard that it *might* go on the internet. There was a possibility that it would go on the net. Some said, no, because they didn't want certain people to find out. A Latino hairdresser didn't want his clients to know, those who didn't. A 72 y-o white man, retired music professor, flamboyantly open with his young Thai boyfriend, say he was never in the closet, refused to do it because some student, some parent of a student might come upon it. This after he said, I was never in the closet. I guess we have to come up with a new definition of closet. Another white guy said that there are people out there, who could see it on the net and he had no idea what they would do. These were all gay men! Openly gay men, men who I would never think of being in the closet. I was irate. Irate. These same people who can travel in their gay circles and the gay parts of town--indeed, the gay parts of the world--and feel so liberated and alive, gave into the bigots. The very thing that coming out is supposed to help to counteract and crush--the bigots--these very out guys were giving in to. And these three guys are not the first or only ones to say no, there were at least seven guys who said they didn't want to be out on the net as a gay man. The fear is overwhelming and debilitating. In this project, the way we are going to do it, it would be so difficult to track down the people who participated. I don't get it. I just don't. We can't overcome if we keep giving in. - --------------8242DE17D0BD91A3185977A7 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="howard_scptv.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for H.D. Motyl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="howard_scptv.vcf" begin:vcard n:Motyl;Howard tel;fax:312-421-7714 tel;work:312-421-7711 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:SCPTV Worldwide adr:;;400 North May Street, Suite 201;Chicago;Illinois;60622; version:2.1 email;internet:howard_scptv@interaccess.com title:Director, Creative Development note;quoted-printable:"Anytime you have the opportunity to accomplish something for someone coming behind you and you don't,=0D=0Ayou are wasting your time on this earth."=0D=0A Roberto Clemente x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Howard Motyl end:vcard - --------------8242DE17D0BD91A3185977A7-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:54:46 -0600 From: "H.D. Motyl" Subject: NJC This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------34A2F940914E241FDE1D3E51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Boy, there are a lot of queers on this list. I like it. Howard M I'm looking for an Italian JM lover in Chicago . . . who has some other interests, too. - --------------34A2F940914E241FDE1D3E51 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="howard_scptv.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for H.D. Motyl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="howard_scptv.vcf" begin:vcard n:Motyl;Howard tel;fax:312-421-7714 tel;work:312-421-7711 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:SCPTV Worldwide adr:;;400 North May Street, Suite 201;Chicago;Illinois;60622; version:2.1 email;internet:howard_scptv@interaccess.com title:Director, Creative Development note;quoted-printable:"Anytime you have the opportunity to accomplish something for someone coming behind you and you don't,=0D=0Ayou are wasting your time on this earth."=0D=0A Roberto Clemente x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Howard Motyl end:vcard - --------------34A2F940914E241FDE1D3E51-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:53:22 EST From: TanyerSCO@aol.com Subject: Tribute Ticket fiasco So . . . . Tickets go on sale TOMORROW the 31st at 12:00 noon. That's what the lady at ticketmaster told me and that's what the lady at the Hammerstein Ballroom told about 5 of us who were given incorrect information this morning. Ugh!!!!!!! Good luck everyone! They're gonna be tough to get! xoxo Tanya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:04:51 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: NJC Boy, there sure are a lot of babes on this list. I like it. Don Rowe ===== "I want a stillness inside, and a quiet of mind, and to stop dreaming of the comfort of strangers." -- Julia Fordham __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:10:21 -0600 From: "H.D. Motyl" Subject: Re: NJC This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------212849ADB4837E5183F76E51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don Rowe wrote: > Boy, there sure are a lot of babes on this list. > > I like it. > > Don Rowe > Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . NP: Frank Sinatra, in the loft offices above me - --------------212849ADB4837E5183F76E51 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="howard_scptv.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for H.D. Motyl Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="howard_scptv.vcf" begin:vcard n:Motyl;Howard tel;fax:312-421-7714 tel;work:312-421-7711 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:SCPTV Worldwide adr:;;400 North May Street, Suite 201;Chicago;Illinois;60622; version:2.1 email;internet:howard_scptv@interaccess.com title:Director, Creative Development note;quoted-printable:"Anytime you have the opportunity to accomplish something for someone coming behind you and you don't,=0D=0Ayou are wasting your time on this earth."=0D=0A Roberto Clemente x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Howard Motyl end:vcard - --------------212849ADB4837E5183F76E51-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:23:00 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: American Beauty (NJC) Bob says: >we all went to see "Titanic" and we > sorta knew how *that* one > was going to end! :~) Oh, I don't know about you, Bob, but that Titanic ending really threw me for a loop - that darn boat wasn't supposed to sink! I was actually expecting Ahnold Schwarzenegger as the Terminator to show up and blow that iceberg away, man! Too much reality just isn't good for the soul, you know. ;) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Joni in S'toon (njc) - --- evian wrote: > Someone asked the other day (can't remember > who...it's been one of those > weeks) if I found a way to get out of my family > reunion this summer for > the July long weekend and the Joni S'toon thing... > Well, actually, I > might actually HAVE gotten out of it... MAYBE... [...] > I may actually HAVE the > weekend free... no thanks to my big mouth So, a simple, "Gee, that's too bad. Well, maybe some other time" and a quick move on to the next subject,while biting back an elated grin, wasn't good enough for you, eh? ;) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:04:50 +0100 From: "catman" Subject: Re: Kevin Spaceman NJC > > I was irate. Irate. These same people who can travel in their gay circles and the gay parts of town--indeed, the gay parts of the world-- I have never been part of a community, as far as I am concerned. There are no 'safe places' really. This was brought home to me when on My New England road trip. I knew I'd never live there. There weren't even any people of colour! I did meet a gay man in a bar in Presque Isle, Maine. He let me know I wasn't being paranoid! I have felt more comfortable in gay bars etc(even tho I don't like that sort of thing-I am ot a club/pub person) just because I knew I could be myself. Good luck with your project. There is no one I would hide my being gay from and like you, I feel irked to say the least about the people you appraoched and their attitude. bw colin and feel so liberated and alive, > gave into the bigots. The very thing that coming out is supposed to help to counteract and crush--the bigots--these very out guys were giving in to. And these three guys > are not the first or only ones to say no, there were at least seven guys who said they didn't want to be out on the net as a gay man. > > The fear is overwhelming and debilitating. In this project, the way we are going to do it, it would be so difficult to track down the people who participated. I don't get > it. I just don't. > > We can't overcome if we keep giving in. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:52:07 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: BSN Review from SonicNet Bob writes: >While I don't totally agree with this writer, can you imagine how sweet it >would be to hear some of these with a simple jazz trio or quartet? Piano, >Drums, Sax, Bass? >Or even Joni singing with somebody else on a Steinway...awesome! Interesting idea...I said almost the exact same thing last week. Victor NP: Rush "Big Money" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #162 ***************************** ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?