From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #117 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, February 26 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 117 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Returning BSN to CDNow [RIKandBRAD@aol.com] Re: Both Sides Now ["cassy" ] re: Crosby (VLJC) ["Ray & Cathy" ] RE: worried about Joni's smoking (NJC) [Louis Lynch ] Re: Tape Trading NJC [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: worried about Joni's smoking (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: A Hypothetical Joni Question ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: NJC: Tales of ex-smoker ASC (all smoking content) [Kate Tarasenko ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:04:29 EST From: RIKandBRAD@aol.com Subject: Re: Returning BSN to CDNow Scott Price Wrote: I was hesitant to do this knowing it was a limited edition and also had not received the other copy (yet) that I ordered from Reprise...my fear was that I'd end up with *no* copies! :-( But CDNow sent a return authorization along with a sticker for the package BSN-LE to me, before I had a chance to send the old one back. I thought this was great customer service and am happy to report that my replacement LE plays perfectly. RikyRacer Adds: Same exact experience. Last night, I played BSNLE through the best speakers in my house(the living room set)with a glass of red wine and some smoke, a la Ms. JM, and have to say every rave everyone has reported is true, true, true. It was a magical experience. Can't wait to get home tonight! RikyRacer in Hollywood ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 01:06:02 -0500 From: "cassy" Subject: Re: Both Sides Now From: Helen M. Adcock >I finally received my copy of Both Sides Now (Ltd. Ed.) yesterday, and I've >got one word to say. >Wow! Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow!!! I'm so glad you finally got a playable copy Helen, I ended up going to the record store and having them open boxes until I found a good one and bought it... let them worry about the headaches of returning scratched discs. (BTW it took three boxes to find a good one) >the lithographs are going to be framed, probably together. Exactly my thought. Regarding the general release disc, I am still wondering whether it will have the same art on the actual disc as the L.E. ... I just got an advance copy from a friend of mine who knows how much I like Joni and the disc is all black with bronze writing on it... I'm curious as to whether this is how the majority of the discs will be printed? Anyone know? Cassy N.P. Elmore James "King of the Slide Guitar" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:34:12 -0800 From: "Ray & Cathy" Subject: re: Crosby (VLJC) In reference to "Music is Love" on Crosby's If I Could Only Remember My Name, Steve Dulson asks: Steve, that's a good question! I just always assumed it was Joni, and have never even heard of Laura Allen. Maybe Fred Simon knows the answer??? Peace to all, Cathy in Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:14:42 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: worried about Joni's smoking (NJC) Wow, RickyRacer! Sorry to hear about your nicotine withdrawal. Thanks for sharing -- your situation proves much better than mine why smokers continue to smoke, even people who make their fortunes off their beautiful singing voices, like Joni Mitchell. And I thought I was having problems! In frustration, I finally went to my doctor for a prescription of an anti-anxiety drug (Xanax, similar to Ativan) which works OK, but it makes me really tired. It is entirely possible that the nicotine gum was giving you problems -- I had the same experience with the patch. I almost went bonkers until I finally tore the thing off and decided to go cold turkey. I almost lost my job, too, and I'm still on shaky ground. Plus, I'm alternately depressed and anxious. People who have known me for years tell me I'm very, very different. Anyway, glad you are back to "normal" again. Enjoy your smoking for a while, since quitting has put you through hell. Only you can decide what's good for you. I appreciate your writing to validate my points -- I hope it helps the people who never smoked realize how tough the addiction can be. Regards, Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 01:29:36 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC: Tales of ex-smoker ASC (all smoking content) Kate Tarasenko sagely (as always) wrote: > However, I agree that people who pester others about > their personal habits or addictions -- whether it has to do with > quitting smoking or dieting or what have you -- these folks are > generally making a self-righteous nuisance of themselves. I too quit, now for six months, after maye 29 years of smoking. I will smoke again because one cig will lead to a pack to 2-3 packs a day again. And it was too much agony to quit to every go through that again, or cheapen that pain by giving up on the quitting. Yet it was not until I decided in my own mid to do it, that I could. Every time someone "lovingly" suggested that I quit, I was aggravated at busybody suggestions about my life, and every time an anti-smoking ad was on th tv, I wouyd light one up. People who nag others to quit - and any suggestion about quitting is a nag - is a self-rightesous nuisance. And every time I see my father and he says, "go glad you quit that dirty habit" I want to bop him one. A real thing that helped me in finaslly succeeding in quitting was in not seeing my anti-smoking nagging father for the first four months (didn't even tell I was quitting during the first two). I have never had an addiction problem with anything at all, except nicotine, which my body just craved (craves) passionately. Smoking is not a moral issue. It is a physiological need that really inhabits some people, and those whose body chemistry are such that nicotine is not an addiction for their own self, consider yourself lucky. > That said, I think the psychological struggles that > attend the physical addiction of nicotine are solely for the smoker to > deal with and overcome, not the well-meaning "idiot" or "loved one" or > fill-in-your-own-blank! Whether or not they "understand" what the > smoker is going through is neither here nor there -- the struggle is not > theirs to begin with. > > Speaking of psychological struggles... if you wish to to make a wise financial investment, buy stock in whoever makes Trident sugarless bubble gum, for once I quit the cigs, quit the patch, quit the gum, quit the Wellbutran, there was left: Trident sugarless bubblegum. That has been my replacement item, and so glad to now be able to get something akin to the pelasure of a good chew after a meal that I used to get from a good smoke. (the Rev) Vince, who actually liked the song, empty, try another: been there, done that, more times than I could remember. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:54:17 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Smoking (NJC) Hi Lou- I have to say this is all a POS cause I smoke occasionally. Mostly with cocktails or in the evening on the front stoop. I don't smoke in the day and never have (like at work or anywhere else). I have been able to control it as opposed to it controlling me. I enjoy having a smoke at certain times. Besides I just look so god damn good doing it. Michael Harper Lou wrote: "Harper Lou steps out on the platform again folks. This time I'm ready to really talk about it, seriously. Pardon me, this a lot more than two-cents worth.... Like other singers addicted to nicotine, I know EXACTLY why Joni smokes cigarettes despite the fact that she sings. Nonsmokers, pay attention ... this essay explains why you sound so stupid to people who smoke. First, I agree 100% with Catman's "bollocks!" People smoke regularly because of nicotine addiction. That's the only reason -- otherwise, people would smoke in the same manner that they do other things, such as have a chocolate or drink a champagne or enjoy a cola or go out for Chinese food. Even though the ingredients in chocolate, champagne, and cola can be classified as addictive and some people do have problems with alcohol or caffeine, the addiction to nicotine is much greater and much more steady. Nicotine is one of the strongest, most addictive drugs known to science -- it affects every system in the body and dependence operates at every level. Nicotine is a powerful drug -- it changes your endorphin level and makes you feel good. Unfortunately, if you don't maintain a certain level of it, the feel-good stops and the urge-for-killing starts. Most people who smoke don't really want to smoke a pack a day or two packs a day, or whatever. Most smokers despise the continual expense and smell and inconvenience. They would love if they could enjoy a cigarette now and again -- such as after a meal or after sex, or whatever, but most simply cannot choose to do that. Withdrawal from nicotine is incredibly painful and stressful. It starts even after a few hours and if the nicotine concentration is not replenished, withdrawal continues for weeks. Smokers understand that perfectly -- they know how hard it is to stop. And, I'm totally convinced that most smokers continue to smoke not because it's cool, but it makes sense intellectually, so we feel obligated to defy the "information" fed to us from the anti-smoking world. Frankly it feels good to smoke, and it feels bad not to smoke. All the literature and "evidence" in the world are not going to change that personal, physical observation -- smokers are going to be defiant when faced with any other "information" -- it's simply not true to them. Long-term, smokers also know that not everyone succumbs to smoking-related illnesses, so the anti-smoking information seems even more flawed -- there is a perfectly good chance that a smoker can enjoy cigarettes all his or her life and not die from cancer. Intellectually, and subsconsciously, continuing to smoke is a lower risk (smarter) for a nonsmoker than attempting the painful process of quitting (not smarter). To a smoker, defying the misinformation makes sense. Joni's BSN painting of her smoking at the bar, right in front of the "No Smoking" sign says it all. Nonsmokers don't seem to understand that at all -- they come up with weak little slogans to tell us that it's not "cool" to smoke. They use photos of cute puppies with cigarettes in their mouths, thinking it's clever when it's just plain stupid in light of the facts. Nonsmokers put up "Thank you for not smoking" signs thinking that it's a matter of social manners, when most smokers would prefer to put out their cigarettes right on the stupid signs. Nonsmokers complain about their precious second-hand air, stupidly adding guilt to everything else a smoker deals with, increasing the defiance. Nonsmokers say things like "I never started, so I don't understand how hard it is to quit." That's right, nonsmokers just don't understand. The several times I tried to quit, I found that my biggest barrier to quitting was the American Cancer Society, the Department of Health and all the other organizations that spout off smarmy no-smoking literature. The toughest thing I have had to battle is the stupid anti-smoking billboards plastered all over Pennsylvania highways -- the 20-foot-tall photos of cigarettes make me crave cigarettes. I can walk through a smoky bar and not crave a cigarette -- physically I'm not addicted any more. But subconsciously, I'm still addicted, and it's that urge to feel good that makes me want to smoke. Everyone trying to tell me "smoking is bad" is exactly the reason I want to have a cigarette -- smoking felt "good" for me. Therefore, they are wrong and stupid for saying that -- and I want to prove how wrong and stupid they are by having another cigarette. Smoking is legal, yet so many people condemn it. The first natural reaction for a smoker faced with non-smoking propaganda is to light a cigarette. Because, frankly, the people who are condemning smoking really don't make any sense to a person whose thought process is linked to a nicotine level. For some reason, nonsmokers fail to recognize that smokers are dealing with a severe physical addiction and psychological dependence. And, even though they might "say" they understand -- they do things that indicate they don't. If you're trying to help someone beat a cocaine addiction, would you plaster a large photo of a pile of pure, white, beautiful, silky cocaine on the highway? Do you think you could solve the problem just by saying "Thank you for not snorting"? Duh!!! I, like most smokers, smoked for a long time, continually saying how much I really wanted to quit. Consciously, I did. Physically, I did not. Subconsciously, I defied the thought of quitting with every fiber of my being. What worked for me? The only thing so far? Fortunately, I found some sane information on Dr. Koop's web page -- the only true source of non-emotional information I ever found. It didn't cause me to stop -- it caused me to think about what I needed to do to stop and find a tool that worked for me. Vivid pictures of lungs affected by emphysema and cancer and such -- intellectually and subconsciously, they were the only "information" that was able to overrule my desire to smoke the next cigarette. I had to work at "reprogramming" myself continually with those images for weeks and weeks. I felt sick for weeks, too, so after I did quit, I relied on a few herbs and drugs and support from friends. And I still want to smoke, believe it or not. But my main point is that in order to quit, I had to do it by myself and for myself. No one else was involved in the process (except for the people I snarled at, bitched at, yelled at, and ran over with my car). I support anybody who quits smoking -- and if there is a system or device or organization out there that works consistently for other people, great! The only thing I found that worked for me was a little bit of intellectual information that finally made sense. And, so I'm going to offer a piece of advice to anyone who is worried about Joni's smoking, or anybody else's smoking. Shut up. Just shut up. It's none of your business. Words like "worry" are toxic to an addict. The only possible thing you can say to a smoker is: "Have you ever thought of quitting?" After you ask that question, there's nothing more you can say. The smoker has to answer the question. And if you don't understand that and keep on talking, you're only making the smoker want to smoke more and more and more." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:34:17 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Tape Trading NJC Catgirl wrote: << It really upsets me when people RIP OFF Joni. AND to find out that he was on the list makes it worse. Joni is very creative and has worked hard all these years making music which is her passion. NO one but her should make money off of HER music but HER! Not some jerk who on good faith recieved CD from the list for FREE and is now trying to make a buck. How rude! >> I am truly amazed that someone on this list would do such a thing, and to call Catgirl what he did is unthinkable. Anyone who would stoop so low obviously doesn't know what this list is about, and definitely doesn't know Catgirl. I have to think that this person *has* to be someone who recently signed up for the JMDL, and *never* reads any of the posts. Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 01:46:42 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: worried about Joni's smoking (NJC) RIKandBRAD@aol.com wrote: > RikyRacer Responds: > > Speak on it, brother. Last year, since smoking since I was 18, I stopped smoking on 5 April 1999 using Nicorette Gum - LOTS OF IT! By 20 April 1999 I was in an LA hospital mental department with a complete physical and emotional breakdown with a chemical imbalance from abusing nicotine gum and alchohol, to boot. Before I stopped smoking, I was at best a social drinker. I damn near lost my mind, my relationship damn near fell apart, and I came close to jeopardizing my seveteen year career with the same Company. > > I stayed off nicotine even through all that. Miserable the whole time. Was off work off and on for 12 weeks. Needed Ativan daily for anxiety attacks and racked up $9,000 in shrink bills that my insurance wouldn't cover. The shrink was certain my confusion and deperession were from bad potty-training or something of the sort involving my parents. He said my obsession with smoking was silly. He never smoked, just gave me more pills. > > Finally, in September 1999, I said screw it and bought a pack. Guess what? I was cured. Immediately, Dropped the Ativan, the pricey shrink, and felt like RikyRacer again for the first time in months. Even with 27 extra pounds on my bones. Oh, I know this story well. When I tried to quit the very first time, I started fainting, fell down the stairs, got CAT scans, MRIs, fell down the stairs getting so weak and smashed my one foot to hell, and was in a screaming rage at the agency I worked at then where thankfully there were psychologists on staff to talk me through... nicotine withdrawal can be the worst, and all that the Racy One describes, I can attest to from my own experience. I decided after a few wild health/emotional destructive episodes of quitting that I would never quit again. Then I became an extraordinarily young grandfather (extra super extraordinary young grandfather..., what was I, two when my first kid was born? :-) same age as he was when my first grandson was born? :-) and to one day see him play in the ash tray and try and smoke a cigarette butt in imitation of me and his mother and father... no, that didn't do it... it was the second grandson when he was born I went to see him the first time and I just finished aerobics (yes, I was the aerobics king on 2-3 packs a day) and I was clean and showered and thought, no, I won't have one on the way, so the baby won't smell smoke... and then I spent so long holding him, when I left, it was late, and I said, well, let's see how long I can go... not saying as a guilt or motivational thing, just that each person has to find their own reason that works for them uniquely in their own life. Since I quit, I have had any number of respiratory problems and pneumonia and I keep telling my doctor, "hey, the rewards of quitting" and he is embarrassed; coincidence, or paying the price of the years of smoking, or physical adjustment, who knows. But the price you pay to quit is hell. But I am better off. I am glad that I quit. Among other things, that 2-3 carton a week money goes to cdnow... and I accomplished a hard thing. For every smoker out there: smoke if you got them; if/when the time is there to quit you will when/if it is right for you, and if you do, it will be the damnedest thing you've ever done, agony. And I understand quite well that eight months, before I decided to quit, every time I saw this subject show up in my email, I'd light another. And if I were Joni reading these posts, I'd smoke a pack down. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 00:41:51 -0600 From: evian Subject: grammies (njc) Ok, now I am caught up to Thursday's digests and emails (sad... I remember when Friday night used to mean getting all suited up in my finery and making an ass of my inebriated self and then topping the night off cruising with my friends Claire and Susan through town as the sun came up, eating those lovely 7-11 hamburgers and just HAVING to listen to Neneh Cherry's "Buffalo Stance" and Bobby Brown's "Don't Be Cruel" 'Jus one more time, k, before you drop me off' and then having Claire call me at 5:30 in the morning to say "Rob -- you lef' your beer from the bar in my purse, and it spilled, so I'm gonna throw it out, ok?" and me replying "thanks for calling, I REALLY love you guys, and I am not just saying that because I'm drunk" -- then again, maybe reading hours of email ain't such a bad way to spend a Friday night... but I digress) Anyway, did anyone read in, I think it was last week's EW, the "interview" with the record biz insiders about the grammies? I knew it was all commercial, but I didn't realize that it was all based on industry politics -- basically, he said Santana would win because the biz is trying kiss Clive's ass, and so and so would win because so and so and so and so would cancel each other out because of industry politics, etc. I didn't even bother watching this year, it's such a sham. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:44:22 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: A Hypothetical Joni Question Penny asked: >My question is: Would she be embraced or would she shunned because she >would cause too much of a distraction from what the JMDL means to you? >(Or for shunned for some other reason(s)???) Personally, I would absolutely love it if Joni was to join the list. Think of all the questions that we could finally get answers to! But I think the number of NJC posts would diminish considerably! Hell _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:55:51 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: Re: NJC: Tales of ex-smoker ASC (all smoking content) The Ex-smoking Reverend Vinnie flirts: "Kate Tarasenko sagely (as always) wrote:..." Oh, Vince -- you're such a sweetie! Speaking of "sage," one of the first times I quit smoking was under duress -- I was living in the middle of no where in Montana, ran out, and one day I walked down to the river and, out of desperation, actually tried to smoke a piece of DRIFTWOOD! Gakkers -- I was cured... until we made it into town the following month, and I bought Prince Albert in the can for my first foray into roll-yer-owns. Mem-ries...! Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:28:08 -0800 From: "Ray & Cathy" Subject: re: Crosby (VLJC) As to whether it was Joni or Laura Allen playing dulcimer on "Music is Love", Randy Remote writes: Randy - thanks for finally setting us straight on this. I have no idea what an 'airy EQ' is......but it completely fooled me! It sounds EXACTLY like a dulcimer! Cathy in Oregon ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #117 ***************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?