From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #116 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, February 26 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 116 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni's Memoirs [M.D.Quinn@shu.ac.uk (Mike QUINN\(CMS\))] Re: XTC (NJC) ["Bill Dollinger" ] Re: What's a good Carly Simon to buy? ["Bill Dollinger" ] RE: worried about Joni's smoking [Louis Lynch ] RE: worried about Joni's smoking ["Carver, Dax" ] Shelby Lynne (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: tape trading, in general (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] a few more acronyms (njc) [Anne Sandstrom ] Acronyms & Quoting [Steve Dulson ] Re: Joni on WWTBAM? again [Don Rowe ] Joni and HER music [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Tape Trading NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Joni's Memoirs [CaTGirl627@aol.com] re: Unsung Melodies ["David" ] Both Sides Now ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: worried about Joni's smoking [Randy Remote ] Re: Thinking outside the NJC box. [waytoblu@mindspring.com] smoking; another perspective NJC [KJHSF@aol.com] Critics of all expression NJC [evian ] Re: Crosby [FredNow@aol.com] Re: worried about JM smoking ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: Hypothetical Joni Question [RIKandBRAD@aol.com] Re: CBC Interview/Grammy Night [FredNow@aol.com] Re: worried about Joni's smoking [catman ] NJC: Tales of an ex-smoker [Kate Tarasenko ] Re: worried about Joni's smoking [catman ] RE: worried about Joni's smoking (NJC) [RIKandBRAD@aol.com] Re: Crosby [Randy Remote ] Re: NJC Best Grammy night ever [Vince Lavieri ] The Role of Critics! & a plug for 'Titus' NJC [evian ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:18:17 +0000 From: M.D.Quinn@shu.ac.uk (Mike QUINN\(CMS\)) Subject: Joni's Memoirs I have just found the following two book descriptions on Amazon.co.uk 1) Autobiography Joni Mitchell Special Order Hardcover - (December 2000) 252 pages Synopsis This autobiography of Joni Mitchell covers both her personal and professional life. It details her poor upbringing, the joy of her first hit record, how she gave up her daughter for adoption when she was 21, her love affairs with people such as Neil Young, and the stories behind her song lyrics. 2) Memoir Joni Mitchell Not Yet Published Paperback - (31 December, 2000) Anyone know any more about this? I know Joni has mentioned writing her memoirs before but I didn't realise they were at this stage. Just imagine we have 252 pages of delight to look forward to! Mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:25:38 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: XTC (NJC) Under the heading of strangest muzak - last night i heard a muzak version of the mayor of simpleton in the grocery store.... bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: Emily Kirk Gray To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 9:08 AM Subject: XTC (NJC) > > calling bob m.! (and other XTC fans) -- i went to florida > last weekend and treated myself to some new music. so i > wanted to buy XTC, bob -- but i guess i should have checked > in with my JMDL music sources before i went to the store. > i couldn't really tell what would be the best CD for a > new listener...or if it mattered...i ended up getting "upsy > daisy assortment" which looks to be some kind of greatest > hits -- wasn't "peter pumkinhead" released as a single a > while back? i seem to recognize it. anyway -- i normally > avoid the GH route, wanting to appreciate the selection > and organization of an album, but...i was lost! i seem to > remember people on the list raving about this "apple > venus" -- but is that an album or a song? i saw something that > looked like demos for "apple venus" but wasn't sure what > that was all about. > > any advice or info appreciated! > > my verdict so far (after 1 1/2 listens) -- good, fun, bracing > pop -- i hear a lot of elvis c. here -- and i love "love > on a farmboy's wages" and "earn enough for us" (gee, is there > a theme here?) and "mayor of simpleton." one weird thing > i noticed is the songs listed on the CD are not the order in > which they play -- is this a mistake or on purpose? > > -- emily, working hard on my music slut wanna-be status > > ALSO, i'm very into the Magnetic Fields' 69 Love Songs -- > part leonard cohen, part elvis costello, plus country, > jazz, punk, indie rock -- it's all here and i'm loving it > this month (it's so great that a 3 CD album can come out > in this form -- eases the pain of the TRAVESTY of christina > aguilera beating out macy gray for "best new artist" at the > grammys last night. and i say this as a confessed brittney > fan! but christina over macy? what a joke.) > > NP: "A Case of You," BSN > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:26:30 -0500 From: "Bill Dollinger" Subject: Re: What's a good Carly Simon to buy? My favorite Carly albums are Boys in the Trees Hotcakes Another Passenger Spy Bill - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: What's a good Carly Simon to buy? > Mark in Seattle Wrote: > > 'Another Passenger' is one of Carly's best imo. I never thought that > 'Dishonest Modesty' had anything to do with Joni. Great song, though. > Wickedly witty lyrics. > > Mark in Seattle > > Anybody think this is about Joni? I can't see Carly being that > mean-spirited but who knows? > > RikyRacer Responds: > > Amen, Mark. This is the best CS album since Anticipation imo and is the last of her best. One very, very cool song is Libby and no, I have never heard that Dishonest Modesty is about JM. Even though she disclaims Fairweather Father is about JT, Do we really believe her? Do we dare to start the rumors about You're So Vain, AGAIN? > > RikyRacer in Hollywood ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:24:43 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: worried about Joni's smoking Actually, Dax, I found the entire tone of your original e-mail to be rude and self-righteous. This last one is even more insulting. You're trying to make me feel guilty about a 3-year-old child I don't know. Sorry, buddy, you can keep your guilt. I NEVER said that nonsmokers were "stupid." I said their arguments sounded "stupid" to a smoker's addicted brain. It's an indisputable fact that nonsmokers are smart for never starting. Duh! I'm sorry about your mother's loss. My mother died of smoke-induced cancer, too. Believe me, I wrote to try to explain to nonsmokers why your attitudes don't work with smokers. But, by all means, you are free to hold onto whatever attitude you like. I'm still standing firm on this one -- the discussion is about Joni's smoking. As a professional singer who smoked all my adult like, I affirm that I can relate. If you learn something from my comments, fine. If not, fine again. Harper Lou - -----Original Message----- From: Carver, Dax [mailto:DC200009@Exchange.AtlantaGA.NCR.com] Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 11:14 AM To: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: worried about Joni's smoking addiction does not justify rudeness, crassness or attacking someone because they don't want smoke down their throat (the in my face thing isn't what bothers me). Also, it doesn't justify the use of the word "stupid" when referring to non-smokers. I definitely never called smokers stupid or their feelings. I very much understand. I have kicked a mulititude of habits that I fealt were distructive to me. It was very very hard to do. You can't say I don't understand, you don't know me or my circumstances. I didn't see any point to your comments. Step away emotionally and read my comments. Step away and read the comments of someone who doesn't want their 3 year old nephew to have to breathe in the smoke that his step-father blows in his face uncaringly. Step away and read the comments of a person whose mother has just lost her closest friend to smoke-induced lung cancer. Sentimental, yes, but also true. You say nonsmokers refuse to see your point, it works both ways. I never made a single comment in my statements that was rude, self-righteous accusational. I never called those who smoke stupid. I never attacked. > -----Original Message----- > From: Louis Lynch [SMTP:Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com] > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 11:03 AM > To: 'Carver, Dax'; Louis Lynch; 'catman'; JoniList > Subject: RE: worried about Joni's smoking > > Dax, > > You missed my point completely. You totally discounted what I said about > the mental process of addiction -- the reason I wrote in the first place. > > As I said, to an addicted smoker, statements like the one you wrote simply > do not make sense. > > True, not all smokers have the same level of addiction and some can quit > more easily. But they all have one thing in common -- subconsciously > something has to change the addiction. Whining about second hand smoke > does > just the opposite -- it reinforces the desire to smoker. > > Sorry, but your argument is based merely on an emotion "I don't LIKE smoke > in my face." A smoker might be more courteous because of your statement > -- > but your second-hand dislike does not change the fact that the smoker > wants > to smoke. I was a very courteous smoker and respectful of nonsmokers. > But > that courtesy was linked to my personality, not to my subconscious > addiction. > > My point was: to a mind addicted to nicotine, the emotional/social > arguments > of nonsmokers sound really stupid. Everything you wrote confirms what I > said. You just don't understand. Try to dismiss the emotions you're > feeling and re-read what I wrote. > > I'm standing firm on this one. > > Harper Lou > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carver, Dax [mailto:DC200009@Exchange.AtlantaGA.NCR.com] > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 10:47 AM > To: Louis Lynch; 'catman'; JoniList > Subject: RE: worried about Joni's smoking > > > As a non-smoker, I don't feel that my desire not to breathe second hand > smoke has ever been self-righteous or anything other than I don't smoke > and, > therefore, I believe I have the right not to have to breathe it in. > Despite > what smokers say about physical addiction (and believe me, I truly feel > for > those that are physically addicted to anything) it doesn't make it right > to > force others to breathe in their smoke-induced air. Thank You For Not > Smoking signs are polite. Owners of businesses that use this sign could > ver > easily use less than polite signs. > > I find the comments below as stereotyping all smokers into one category. > Not all smokers feel like the world is against them. Not all of them > would > want to smash out their cigarrette buds on a non-smoking sing. This has > nothing to do with physical addiction, it has to do with manners and > politeness. If you were addicted to a needle induced drug, hopefully you > wouldn't walk around sticking it in others just because you are physically > addicted. The same goes for smoking around those who don't want to > breathe > it. By doing this, you are forcing those who don't smoke to have to smoke > "second-handedly" which is just as bad for them. This isn't said to make > anyone feel bad, it's the truth. > > Not everyone has all of these horrendous problems quitting either. > Smokers, > like all people, are not so easily defined as the posts below would > indicate. > > I totally agree that smoking is not the cool thing to do (unless you are > still in high-school). The unfortunate thing is the addiction. A lot of > people start smoking from peer pressure (hence, the cool thing to do) but > do > not continue for this reason. They continue because of addiction. That's > sad. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Louis Lynch [SMTP:Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 10:19 AM > > To: 'catman'; JoniList > > Subject: RE: worried about Joni's smoking > > > > Relayer and Catman discussed... > > > > > Funny, because smoking is really about conformity to some > > > image of "cool". > > > > Bollocks!(excuse me) what twaddle. smoking is about nicotine addiction. > It > > is > > hardly cool or ever was. I smoke. I smoke because I am hooked and am not > > willing to > > go thru the withdrawals having already experienced such from other > > substances.If > > you think HL is irritable now, you ain't seen me when i have gone a day > > without my > > fags! > > > > > > Harper Lou steps out on the platform again folks. This time I'm ready > to > > really talk about it, seriously. Pardon me, this a lot more than > > two-cents > > worth.... > > > > Like other singers addicted to nicotine, I know EXACTLY why Joni smokes > > cigarettes despite the fact that she sings. Nonsmokers, pay attention > ... > > this essay explains why you sound so stupid to people who smoke. > > > > First, I agree 100% with Catman's "bollocks!" People smoke regularly > > because of nicotine addiction. That's the only reason -- otherwise, > > people > > would smoke in the same manner that they do other things, such as have a > > chocolate or drink a champagne or enjoy a cola or go out for Chinese > food. > > > > Even though the ingredients in chocolate, champagne, and cola can be > > classified as addictive and some people do have problems with alcohol or > > caffeine, the addiction to nicotine is much greater and much more > steady. > > Nicotine is one of the strongest, most addictive drugs known to science > -- > > it affects every system in the body and dependence operates at every > > level. > > > > Nicotine is a powerful drug -- it changes your endorphin level and makes > > you > > feel good. Unfortunately, if you don't maintain a certain level of it, > > the > > feel-good stops and the urge-for-killing starts. > > > > Most people who smoke don't really want to smoke a pack a day or two > packs > > a > > day, or whatever. Most smokers despise the continual expense and smell > > and > > inconvenience. They would love if they could enjoy a cigarette now and > > again -- such as after a meal or after sex, or whatever, but most simply > > cannot choose to do that. > > > > Withdrawal from nicotine is incredibly painful and stressful. It starts > > even after a few hours and if the nicotine concentration is not > > replenished, > > withdrawal continues for weeks. > > > > Smokers understand that perfectly -- they know how hard it is to stop. > > And, > > I'm totally convinced that most smokers continue to smoke not because > it's > > cool, but it makes sense intellectually, so we feel obligated to defy > the > > "information" fed to us from the anti-smoking world. > > > > Frankly it feels good to smoke, and it feels bad not to smoke. All the > > literature and "evidence" in the world are not going to change that > > personal, physical observation -- smokers are going to be defiant when > > faced > > with any other "information" -- it's simply not true to them. > Long-term, > > smokers also know that not everyone succumbs to smoking-related > illnesses, > > so the anti-smoking information seems even more flawed -- there is a > > perfectly good chance that a smoker can enjoy cigarettes all his or her > > life > > and not die from cancer. Intellectually, and subsconsciously, > continuing > > to > > smoke is a lower risk (smarter) for a nonsmoker than attempting the > > painful > > process of quitting (not smarter). > > > > To a smoker, defying the misinformation makes sense. Joni's BSN > painting > > of > > her smoking at the bar, right in front of the "No Smoking" sign says it > > all. > > > > > > Nonsmokers don't seem to understand that at all -- they come up with > weak > > little slogans to tell us that it's not "cool" to smoke. They use > photos > > of > > cute puppies with cigarettes in their mouths, thinking it's clever when > > it's > > just plain stupid in light of the facts. Nonsmokers put up "Thank you > for > > not smoking" signs thinking that it's a matter of social manners, when > > most > > smokers would prefer to put out their cigarettes right on the stupid > > signs. > > Nonsmokers complain about their precious second-hand air, stupidly > adding > > guilt to everything else a smoker deals with, increasing the defiance. > > Nonsmokers say things like "I never started, so I don't understand how > > hard > > it is to quit." That's right, nonsmokers just don't understand. > > > > The several times I tried to quit, I found that my biggest barrier to > > quitting was the American Cancer Society, the Department of Health and > all > > the other organizations that spout off smarmy no-smoking literature. > The > > toughest thing I have had to battle is the stupid anti-smoking > billboards > > plastered all over Pennsylvania highways -- the 20-foot-tall photos of > > cigarettes make me crave cigarettes. I can walk through a smoky bar and > > not > > crave a cigarette -- physically I'm not addicted any more. But > > subconsciously, I'm still addicted, and it's that urge to feel good that > > makes me want to smoke. Everyone trying to tell me "smoking is bad" is > > exactly the reason I want to have a cigarette -- smoking felt "good" for > > me. > > Therefore, they are wrong and stupid for saying that -- and I want to > > prove > > how wrong and stupid they are by having another cigarette. > > > > Smoking is legal, yet so many people condemn it. The first natural > > reaction > > for a smoker faced with non-smoking propaganda is to light a cigarette. > > Because, frankly, the people who are condemning smoking really don't > make > > any sense to a person whose thought process is linked to a nicotine > level. > > > > For some reason, nonsmokers fail to recognize that smokers are dealing > > with > > a severe physical addiction and psychological dependence. And, even > > though > > they might "say" they understand -- they do things that indicate they > > don't. > > If you're trying to help someone beat a cocaine addiction, would you > > plaster > > a large photo of a pile of pure, white, beautiful, silky cocaine on the > > highway? Do you think you could solve the problem just by saying "Thank > > you > > for not snorting"? Duh!!! > > > > I, like most smokers, smoked for a long time, continually saying how > much > > I > > really wanted to quit. Consciously, I did. Physically, I did not. > > Subconsciously, I defied the thought of quitting with every fiber of my > > being. > > > > What worked for me? The only thing so far? Fortunately, I found some > > sane > > information on Dr. Koop's web page -- the only true source of > > non-emotional > > information I ever found. It didn't cause me to stop -- it caused me to > > think about what I needed to do to stop and find a tool that worked for > > me. > > Vivid pictures of lungs affected by emphysema and cancer and such -- > > intellectually and subconsciously, they were the only "information" that > > was > > able to overrule my desire to smoke the next cigarette. I had to work > at > > "reprogramming" myself continually with those images for weeks and > weeks. > > I > > felt sick for weeks, too, so after I did quit, I relied on a few herbs > and > > drugs and support from friends. And I still want to smoke, believe it > or > > not. > > > > But my main point is that in order to quit, I had to do it by myself and > > for > > myself. No one else was involved in the process (except for the people > I > > snarled at, bitched at, yelled at, and ran over with my car). > > > > I support anybody who quits smoking -- and if there is a system or > device > > or > > organization out there that works consistently for other people, great! > > The > > only thing I found that worked for me was a little bit of intellectual > > information that finally made sense. > > > > And, so I'm going to offer a piece of advice to anyone who is worried > > about > > Joni's smoking, or anybody else's smoking. Shut up. Just shut up. > It's > > none of your business. Words like "worry" are toxic to an addict. > > > > The only possible thing you can say to a smoker is: "Have you ever > thought > > of quitting?" After you ask that question, there's nothing more you can > > say. The smoker has to answer the question. > > > > And if you don't understand that and keep on talking, you're only making > > the > > smoker want to smoke more and more and more. > > > > Off his soapbox, > > > > Harper Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:31:32 -0500 From: Erin Stoy Subject: Graceland--NJC "When I went and got myself arrested protesting apartheid outside the Wash DC South African embassy back in 1985, that was when I first heard of Ladysmith Black Mambazo, and thus I was so thnakful for Paul Simon bringing them to a wider audience, I think shortly after." As a junior in college, I took a class called Traditional and Popular African Musics." I wrote a paper for the class about the controversy surrounding Paul Simon's Graceland album (which, by the way, would DEFINITELY make my "top ten deserted island picks"). For one thing, there was stong opposition to the album from some anti-apartheid activists, who were upset with Paul for going to South Africa despite the cultural boycott. Others said he was exploiting the talent of African artists for his own financial gain. But I argued against these and other arguments opposing the Graceland album. It brought Ladysmith Black Mambazo to the world's attention, and members of the group said that working with Paul was the best thing that ever happened to their career. Paul gave all his share of the profits from the tour to anti-apartheid groups. I could go on and on refuting the "anti-Graceland" arguments and supporting the album as a masterpiece (In fact, I could type out my whole paper here! Ha!), but you get my point. Erin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:40:21 -0500 From: "Carver, Dax" Subject: RE: worried about Joni's smoking Phyliss, it seems that you understood the intent of my original message. Like I said, I know it's hard and it's sad. > -----Original Message----- > From: Phyliss Ward [SMTP:pward@lightspeed.net] > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 11:11 AM > To: Carver, Dax > Cc: Louis Lynch; 'catman'; JoniList > Subject: Re: worried about Joni's smoking > > My husband has quit every drug from alcohol to heroin. He has been clean > and > sober for 15 years. He takes vitamins and believes in preventative > health. He > has tried to quit smoking numerous times (believe me, it is no fun for me > when > he does, I've endured loots of 'bad days') He has even been successful > for as > long as 6 months. He still smokes - coughs every morning - has given up, > like > Joni > > "Carver, Dax" wrote: > > > A lot of people start smoking from peer pressure (hence, the cool thing > to > > do) but do > > not continue for this reason. They continue because of addiction. > That's > > sad. > > -- > Phyliss > Golden Fig Ceramics > http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:45:39 -0500 From: Erin Stoy Subject: tape trading, in general (NJC) I have a general question about tape trading: There are so many wonderful obscure recordings everyone has, but I have none to offer in return! Is this lack of reciprocity a problem? Thanks, Erin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:50:22 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Shelby Lynne (NJC) I Am Shelby Lynne is just spectacular. I feel like we found our Dusty that we lost. Very fresh, some blue-eyed Memphis soul. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:54:42 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: tape trading, in general (NJC) Erin Stoy wrote: > I have a general question about tape trading: There are so many > wonderful obscure recordings everyone has, but I have none to offer in > return! Is this lack of reciprocity a problem? > Thanks, > Erin Good question, Erin. The answer is no. If you have nothing to trade (as all of is did not at the beginning) then you send the blanks, a return package, and postage, and a great big thank you. And be prepared to do the same for others. Watch the list carefully for generous offer, like there was today. You'll be off to a great start. Jerry np: Shelby Lynne - Leavin' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:05:24 -0600 From: "Mark T. Domyancich" Subject: Joni on WWTBAM? again Hey everyone, Last night on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?, one of the questions was "Who was on the first cover of Rolling Stone (and then some date.)?" The choices were John Lennon, Janis Joplin, Joni and another J. The answer was John Lennon. Just thought I'd like to share! - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:04:11 -0500 From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: a few more acronyms (njc) NSC - no smoking content SSC - some smoking content ASC - all smoking content Ok, I'll stop now. (I was going to say I'll 'quit' now, but I think only Bob could get away with that one!) Cheers - it's FRIDAY!!! Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:15:54 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Acronyms & Quoting Anne Sandstrom wrote: >SMR - Sending message repeatedly Hey, look, John Low and I apologised, OK? Geez... :) Let's add: RLQ - Ridiculously Long Quoting. Was it really necessary to post Harper Lou's very long essay on smoking, back to the list, TWICE ?!? ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ (Website under construction!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:16:48 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Joni on WWTBAM? again I can't help but think there's a secret Joni fan on staff at "Millionaire" ... once could have been a coincidence, but twice in a month or so??? Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:25:09 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Joni and HER music Do you have any Joni on CD? Would you like to get them for FREE or pay out the wazoo for it?? And if you are paying for it is she making any money off of HER music or is some rip off artist getting all the dough. Unless you really don't care about Joni and her receiving money for her music that she wrote and that she performed stop wasting my time with your bandwidth... next subject please!!! Catgirl Tim wrote::::: Wow, a lurker here, all this arguing and name calling, good heavens. E-bay, copyright infringements, Lord...haven't we anything else better to do. My God we're sounding almost as bitter as Joni on Turbulent Indigo...geez. Lets leave the accusations for the experts and concentrate on our own lives. I think we can use a little introspection. I'm very turned off by having to read this petty crap and arguing. I'm glad some are still talking about the music and Joni. Whats happening to this page? Yuck. - - Tim V. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:29:25 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Tape Trading NJC In a message dated 2/24/2000 10:51:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, sp@olympus.net writes: << It may have been distasteful, but some of us are very passionate when it comes to the ethics of *trading* tapes. The post(s) that you refer to served a very useful purpose, IMO. By letting us know about this unscrupulous "trader," Catgirl has reinforced what most of us believe is the *right* way to conduct ourselves. If the allegations are true, this "trader" was *given* the recordings and is now trying to make a profit by selling them. Whenever one participates in a JMDL "tree" it's understood that the product WILL NOT be sold...that's not at all in the spirit of "sharing the music" which has always been the goal here. It was the alleged perpetrator who turned on the flames. A person whom I don't think ever contributed to this list. I believe Catgirl did the *right* thing by trying to get him shut down and letting him know he was *wrong.* Scott >> Thanks Scott. It really upsets me when people RIP OFF Joni. AND to find out that he was on the list makes it worse. Joni is very creative and has worked hard all these years making music which is her passion. NO one but her should make money off of HER music but HER! Not some jerk who on good faith recieved CD from the list for FREE and is now trying to make a buck. How rude! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:41:11 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Memoirs In a message dated 2/25/2000 11:24:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, M.D.Quinn@shu.ac.uk writes: << I have just found the following two book descriptions on Amazon.co.uk 1) Autobiography Joni Mitchell Special Order Hardcover - (December 2000) 252 pages Synopsis This autobiography of Joni Mitchell covers both her personal and professional life. It details her poor upbringing, the joy of her first hit record, how she gave up her daughter for adoption when she was 21, her love affairs with people such as Neil Young, and the stories behind her song lyrics. 2) Memoir Joni Mitchell Not Yet Published Paperback - (31 December, 2000) >> YES I know abuot this book. I ordered it and they wrote me back saying it is not yet published and they had no idea when it would ever be done. so no book... :o( Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:05:53 PST From: "David" Subject: re: Unsung Melodies There was also an enviromental song I heard her her sing once.. It was Called Goodbye Blue Skies. I don't remember quite how it went, but I remember thinking it was quiteg good. But I agree a 4 cd compilation of these songs would be fantastic!!! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 11:02:38 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Both Sides Now Dear JMDL I finally received my copy of Both Sides Now (Ltd. Ed.) yesterday, and I've got one word to say. Wow! Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow!!! This is absolutely beautiful. The "hat-box" is wonderful, and the lithographs are going to be framed, probably together. And the CD? It was loose in the box, and there were a few small scratches. I played it through, and it skipped on about 3 words in "A Case Of You", so I carefully polished the back a little, and now it's perfect. Pretty good considering it's come half-way round the world from California to NZ! I'm VERY glad I spent the extra money on this package. It was worth every cent. Hell _______________________________ "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with available extremes" - Carole King hell@ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:19:25 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: worried about Joni's smoking People who taught us it is cool to smoke: Bogie and Bacall John Wayne Marlena Dietrich The Beatles Joni Mitchell Rickie Lee Jones "and you know there may be more" > Nonsmokers complain about their precious second-hand air, stupidly adding guilt to everything else a smoker deals with I want to breathe clean air, which has nothing to do with making anyone else feel guilty. Your statement simply astounds me, Lou. RR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:20:55 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Thinking outside the NJC box. >> >Scoring: 1-6 questions = average > 6-12 = somewhat intelligent > 12-18 = intelligent > 18+ = Genius! > > I printed this list out today and worked on it for a few hours while driving around and have solved all but three of these so I guess that makes me a genius according to the above scale though I feel more like someone who loves puzzles. However, the remaining three are driving me crazy. I know I'll be trying to figure them out for the rest of the day...how have other people been faring? Victor http://www.mindspring.com/~waytoblu/Tangled.htm here are a few more.... 35. 27=O in a PG 36. 4=B in a M 37. 73=MS from the SB 38. 8=N in a S 39. 15=B on a PT ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:03:59 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: smoking; another perspective NJC Writer, philosopher Ayn Rand believed that smoking, particularly the aesthetic of a lit cigarette, is the appropriate symbol of the spark of a thinking man's mind--fire tamed at his fingertips. All of her archetypical heroes and heroines smoked cigarettes. When told she had lung cancer at her doctor's office. She leaned forward and crushed her lit cigarette into the ashtray and said '"Will that help?" This message is neither pro nor con--I don't smoke, myself, but despite what we know about the health risks, I've always been intrigued with Rand's perspective and wanted to share it since this is the hot thread these days. I always think about it whenever a smoking debate ensues, and it's all I ever have to say on the matter. Ken in SF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:47:24 -0600 From: evian Subject: Critics of all expression NJC Heather wrote: > Glad you bought this up. This is a major reason why I don't post too much. > Even when I first joined the JMDL and expressed how Joni's music had moved > with me through my life experiences, I received nasty private e-mails > saying that people don't want to hear this and it was boring and on and on > and on. > Heather, Granny Dear.... I just want to say that I LOVE your posts, and I will never forget that you were one of the first JMDLers to really make me feel at home on the list, back when I felt intimidated and, I think, after I got some snarky email from someone or something... I can't remember the context, but I do remember how you really made me feel welcome... so keep on posting, and just for the record, I love to read about everyone's lives and experiences... but then again I *am* nosy... and a medicine cabinet snooper to boot ;) Sorry if this has all been said before, I just got back and am still on Monday's digests -- and I ain't going to bed until I get through all of them, being the anal person I am! Evian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:14:03 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Crosby Steve Dulson wrote: >"Ray & Cathy" write: >>My favorite >>cut is the first song "Music is Love"...not only was Joni's dulcimer >>playing enchanting, but the song was such a collaborrative thing, >Was that Joni or Laura Allen dulciming on that track? I'm not positive, but I think it was Laura Allen's dulcet tones. I'm pretty sure Joni just sings on the album. - -Fred - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:20:42 PST From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: worried about JM smoking But...on that note I could say that since I do not drive, I have the right not to breath the carbon monoxide that surrounds us that comes from car exhaust. There is a certain hostility that surrounds "no smoking" issues, even when the intentions are good. I smoke periodicallly, and would never smoke in a place of business, anyone else's home, or anywhere else that I thought might bother someone. I do not clip my toenails in the living room for the same reason. Smoking is a nasty habit, with negative effects on a body's health. So is overeating, binge drinking, and on and on and on. I think that most smokers are content (more or less) to smoke in designated areas. A lot of non-smokers, however, don't always seem to see this as reasonable. Empty...empty, try another... Reuben >From: "Carver, Dax" >As a non-smoker, I don't feel that my desire not to breathe second hand >smoke has ever been self-righteous or anything other than I don't smoke >and, >therefore, I believe I have the right not to have to breathe it in. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:13:29 EST From: RIKandBRAD@aol.com Subject: Re: Hypothetical Joni Question Penny Wrote: If Joni herself came on and said something to the effect of "Hi everyone! I wanted to thank you for your appreciation all these years. Really, it's meant so much to me. I'm open for questions if you would like and would it be OK for me to give my impressions on some of your threads also? Ya know, do you mind if I hang out here on occasion?" RickyRacer Responds: I have had the same thought, Penny. I think it would be totally cool and maybe a little freaky if that happened. It might demystify her in my eyes. If I were her, my curiosity would be killing me to know what others were saying about my creations, or the twists and turns my life has taken, or the reactions my interviews received. But, of one thing I am certain, JM and I live in two different realities (she's celebrated by millions, me by maybe a dozen) and to her such information may not be all that interesting or useful. I have heard tell that some famous people rerad nothing written about them. Maybe she even resents people like us talking about her? I wonder if she even has a computer. I am conjuring an image of her scrolling through our prolific messages with a full ashtray on the side of the keyboard and a cat atop the monitor. The sun is shining in through the tall windows Wally spoke of and she has Julia Fordham's Porcelin on the stereo. RickyRacer in Hollywood ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:20:57 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: CBC Interview/Grammy Night luvart@snet.net wrote: >I love Brahms 3rd Symphony (in F major) ..... especially the poco >allegretto movement! If anyone ever gets the chance, put this piece of >music on your DiscMan and go for a walk on the beach. Truly moving. >I have not heard this 'rip off'. I'm going to check it out :-) >Here's a question: If every inspiration were noted on every piece of art >(music, painting or otherwise) wouldn't that be a little over doing it? >And another: >Where is the line when it comes to directly plagiarizing music? I should have been more clear ... it's not based on Brahms' melody, it's not inspired by Brahms' melody, it *is* Brahms' melody exactly, note for note. The only difference is that the original Brahms is in 3/4 (waltz) meter, and Carlos' version is in 4/4 meter, with a bossa nova-type groove. It's really nice, but he didn't write it. That's where I draw the line. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:42:16 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: worried about Joni's smoking If it wasn't for people who smoke and 'pollute the air', people might actually bitch about the pollution from cars and planes and trains and..... funny how this is kept quiet. A far greater danger I would have thought. Thre meanest thing: my grandfather aged 86 was forced to quit smoking for 'his heart'. He died withing 8 weeks. Thanks for your post HL. Good points. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:49:33 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: NJC: Tales of an ex-smoker Harper Lou: You had me nodding my head with all the familiar travails of smokers up until this point: "...Nonsmokers put up 'Thank you for not smoking' signs thinking that it's a matter of social manners, when most smokers would prefer to put out their cigarettes right on the stupid signs. Nonsmokers complain about their precious second-hand air, stupidly adding guilt to everything else a smoker deals with, increasing the defiance..." I'm afraid this is your nicotine-withdrawal talking! Being asked not to smoke is NOT a question of "social manners," IMO. My "precious" air is INDEED precious to me -- when a smoker fouls my breathing air with his cigarette smoke, he needs to take his addiction elsewhere. Whether or not he feels guilty or "increasingly defiant" as a result of being asked to absent himself from my immediate breathing area is immaterial to me. His right to smoke ends where my right to breathe begins. As an ex-smoker who struggled several times over 25 years to quit, I DO understand how difficult it is, and although the craving actually still crops up now and again (sometimes I even dream that I'm smoking, and I wake up feeling guilty!), quitting is one of the best things I've ever done for myself. However, I agree that people who pester others about their personal habits or addictions -- whether it has to do with quitting smoking or dieting or what have you -- these folks are generally making a self-righteous nuisance of themselves. But just like any unsolicited advice, it is USUALLY borne of concern and caring, despite its being generally unwelcome and sometimes counter-productive, so I don't understand why one would get so worked up over it on top of everything else. That said, I think the psychological struggles that attend the physical addiction of nicotine are solely for the smoker to deal with and overcome, not the well-meaning "idiot" or "loved one" or fill-in-your-own-blank! Whether or not they "understand" what the smoker is going through is neither here nor there -- the struggle is not theirs to begin with. Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:46:58 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: worried about Joni's smoking Carver, Dax wrote: > As a non-smoker, I don't feel that my desire not to breathe second hand > smoke has ever been self-righteous or anything other than I don't smoke and, > therefore, I believe I have the right not to have to breathe it in. Despite > what smokers say about physical addiction (and believe me, I truly feel for > those that are physically addicted to anything) it doesn't make it right to > force others to breathe in their smoke-induced air. Thank You For Not > Smoking signs are polite. Owners of businesses that use this sign could ver > easily use less than polite signs. Personally I do not smoke around people who prefer me not to. i never smoke in others homes unless with their permission.Having said that, waht about your car or other forms of transport? Don't you worry about what you breathe in from them? Have you stopped using them? > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:56:54 EST From: RIKandBRAD@aol.com Subject: RE: worried about Joni's smoking (NJC) Harper Lou Wrote: Withdrawal from nicotine is incredibly painful and stressful. It starts even after a few hours and if the nicotine concentration is not replenished, withdrawal continues for weeks. RikyRacer Responds: Speak on it, brother. Last year, since smoking since I was 18, I stopped smoking on 5 April 1999 using Nicorette Gum - LOTS OF IT! By 20 April 1999 I was in an LA hospital mental department with a complete physical and emotional breakdown with a chemical imbalance from abusing nicotine gum and alchohol, to boot. Before I stopped smoking, I was at best a social drinker. I damn near lost my mind, my relationship damn near fell apart, and I came close to jeopardizing my seveteen year career with the same Company. I stayed off nicotine even through all that. Miserable the whole time. Was off work off and on for 12 weeks. Needed Ativan daily for anxiety attacks and racked up $9,000 in shrink bills that my insurance wouldn't cover. The shrink was certain my confusion and deperession were from bad potty-training or something of the sort involving my parents. He said my obsession with smoking was silly. He never smoked, just gave me more pills. Finally, in September 1999, I said screw it and bought a pack. Guess what? I was cured. Immediately, Dropped the Ativan, the pricey shrink, and felt like RikyRacer again for the first time in months. Even with 27 extra pounds on my bones. I know the risks, I know the rewards, and yes my friends, there is little anyone (smoker or non-smoker) can say that can make me stop smoking again. I almost died trying. Maybe I will be provided a message like that so beautifully described by Harper Lou that will relieve me of this horrid, yet basically socially acceptable addiction and obsession. Try another....Try another....Try another... Thanks, Harper Lou, very much for your sensitive story. RikyRacer in Hollywood ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:09:05 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Crosby Steve Dulson wrote: > > "Ray & Cathy" write: > > >My favorite > >cut is the first song "Music is Love"...not only was Joni's dulcimer > >playing enchanting, but the song was such a collaborrative thing, > > Was that Joni or Laura Allen dulciming on that track? > Neither of them appear on this track. The only musicians are Crosby, G.Nash and Neil Young. The sound you hear is an acoustic with airy EQ. From the CSN boxset: Vocals David Crosby, Graham Nash, Neil Young Guitars: David Crosby, Neil Young Bass,vibes: Neil Young Congas:Graham Nash "Music Is Love" is Nash's and Neils' fault. I improvised the tune, we were foolong around, it was a jam, and when it was over I thought 'That's nice', but I didn't see it as too impressive. Then Nash and Neil stole the tape. They added congas, vibes, and harmonies, brought the tape back to me and said, "This is going on your album, don't give us any shit" They were very firm about it. I learned a long time ago it doesn't work to say no to Nash or Neil. -David Crosby ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:00:19 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: NJC Best Grammy night ever SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/24/00 8:43:11 PM US Central Standard Time, > revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: > > << Paul Simon and (damn I forget the exact name) group > from South Africa, doing Diamonds on the Souls of their Shoes... >> > > Ladysmith Black Mambazo, they're great. "Souls" of their shoes? Was that a > Freudian slip, Vinnie? > > Bob A Freudian slip big time, big time! At the service where the church shall never be the same again, where the make me a bishop (still not used to that...), I am thinking of slipping into the litany of saints worthy of honor and remembrance the names of John, Paul, George, Ringo, Janis Joplin, Joni, and Neil Young. :-) That about covers it for me... Anyone in CT on 2 April, or who can get to Hartford on 2 April, let me know... I'd love to have you come, it would mean so much to me ... any of our singers who can come and do an acoustic number or two at the service or reception? It would also mean the world to me. And you won;t be ased to sing "Diamonds on the Souls of their shoes"... :-) Let me know off-list... (the Rev) Vinnie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 00:00:49 -0600 From: evian Subject: The Role of Critics! & a plug for 'Titus' NJC Hey Listers, Still plowing through the digests, I am on Wed. now, but I just had to comment on this from Mark (who, I suddenly realized that I probably accidently call Travis all the time): > Has anyone ever had the experience of seeing a movie that you know is > well-written, well-acted, well-directed, has a beautiful production > and visual style....but you just don't like it? I felt that way about > 'The Piano.' Very well done & Holly Hunter deserved that Oscar and > Jane Campion is obviously a first-rate director but I just hated that > movie. > Oh God Mark, we'd be best friends if I lived in Seattle because I hated this movie too... and to make it worse, being the critic whore that I was, I tried soooooo hard to like it... but I kept thinking "Oh, this is so frigging stupid" and I sarcastically bellowed "Mother, not the Piano" or whatever that creepy little girl said, for months on end. And as for Steely Dan, I only have the greatest hits, so I can't judge their body of work, but while I love the hits, I ain't compelled to buy an album.... and as for Costello -- I don't really get it either, except I do like a few songs. Hanging his head in shame and slinking back into his double-wide next to the Walmart, and putting on his Starland Vocal Band album, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:05:56 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: a few more acronyms (njc) Loren and I have one, not used yet, AMC, which is All My Children content, news and updates... today I am trying to figure out why Hailey is so mad at Adam! And is Liza backing off the divorce? (the Rev) Vince Anne Sandstrom wrote: > NSC - no smoking content > SSC - some smoking content > ASC - all smoking content > ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #116 ***************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?