From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #111 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, February 23 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 111 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The Role of Critics! NJC [David Wright ] Re: One down, ?? to go [FredNow@aol.com] Thank you (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: NJC various [FredNow@aol.com] Judges in black and white ["Raffaele Malanga" ] gay stereotypes (NJC) [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles (now NJC?) [Jason Maloney ] Re: Steely Dan (njc) [Howard Wright ] Re: One down, ?? to go [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Harry Potter (NJC) and Kakki [Gertus@aol.com] "Busted!" -- My Conversation with Peter Erskine [Don Rowe ] Re: Harry Potter (NJC) and Kakki ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: One down, ?? to go ["Catherine McKay" ] Reincarnation (or, a X by any other name) - NJC [Catherine McKay ] Cardinals, signs of spring - NJC [Catherine McKay ] Re: The Role of Critics! NJC [Jason Maloney ] More Steely Dan info... njc [Les Irvin ] Re: why so blue? (njc) ["lpeakes" ] Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles (now NJC?) [philipf@tinet.ie] Haven;t we Waited Long Enough? [NathanLaFraneer@aol.com] Re: I made a BSN conversion! [Joseph Davis ] Re: Audiophile's Corner; NJC [Joseph Davis ] RE: Critics of all expression...(NJC)...I suppose [john low Subject: Re: The Role of Critics! NJC John Low quoted critic Jim McLeod: > > "“What I try to do in writing about records is to ‘review’ them rat > than ‘criticise’ them. I try to give the reader some idea of what is > on that record, so that they can make up their own mind..." [snip] I feel something of a need to "reclaim" the word "criticism" and give it a more positive meaning -- the more literary sense of the word -- where the critic *analyzes* (not just describes) a work, traces themes/symbols through the work (and other works by the same artist), examines what the work does and how it does it. This can be done in any art form -- painting, film, classical and popular music, literature, etc. And as Pauline Kael points out, it can be an art form in itself. And it does usually involve judging the success or failure of a work, but I think a really well-done analysis of this type can hardly even be considered positive or negative (in the way that some people complain about reviews of Joni's or other albums) -- the important thing is how the analysis *illuminates* the film/album/etc. as a work of art. In this kind of treatment of a novel or a film, giving away the plot/ending might actually be *necessary* (in analyzing its overall structure, or how it works), but that doesn't bother me. It's a very personal form of writing, and in that sense I'm not very interested in critics who try to keep themselves out of their reviews -- perhaps because I personally don't buy music based on the kind of reviews they write, perhaps because I think that their "impartiality" is an illusion (or delusion) anyway. Part of the thing with the kind of criticism I like is that it requires a lot of space to be good, the kind of space that most corporate-owned newspapers and magazines don't give their writers anymore (so they can bring in more advertising revenue). One of my favorite Joni reviews is Perry Meisel's article on _Hejira_ (from the Village Voice, on jmdl.com). I don't agree with or even like everything in the article -- it's called "How Joni Mitchell Fails" -- but I'd rather read it than many more "positive" reviews of the album. Some people probably find the article pretentious, but the fact that Meisel thought enough of Joni's work to treat it on the level that he did is itself a very high form of praise, in my opinion. - --David "You don't have to lay an egg to know if it tastes rotten." --Pauline Kael on criticism ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 04:07:39 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: One down, ?? to go SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >And it's not too late to contribute - if you have some Joni covers in the >closet somewhere, just let me know! So far I've got about 3 CD's worth! You mentioned The Byrds, so I assume you have their version of For Free from their reunion album. On the same album is another version of Crosby's Laughing, although I much prefer the one on his "solo" album If I Could Only Remember My Name, which is one of my all time faves. Here's a few more great covers: 1) All I Want - Keith Jarrett, The Mourning Of A Star 2) All I Want - Ross Traut/Steve Rodby (Pat Metheny bass player), The Great Lawn 3) My Old Man - Fred Hersch, Let Yourself Go And, although admittedly falling headlong into the category of Shameless-Self-Promotion (yes, but if not me then who?), there are three Joni covers on a solo piano album I am in the process of completing titled Songs Of My Youth, Vol. 1: Both Sides Now, For Free, and Michael From Mountains. Also some Dylan, Beatles, Beethoven, and my own homage to Ravel. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:51:07 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Thank you (NJC) Wow, I am a bit stunned and bowled over by all these sweet messages. It's kinda embarrassing but also amazing to see all this love popping up in my email. You blow me away. Thank you more than I can ever say. Love, Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 04:54:25 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC various Vince Lavieri wrote: >I voted - and this will shock people who know me - but no one here does! >- - in our Michigan Republican primary today, for McCain. I am a >dedicated Dem, and a caucus leader in our county caucus in March, and >will happily vote for Gore and prefer Bradley, but yet, I had to stop >and help a person running on campaign finance reform and endijg the >influence of the lobbyists. I can't stand the bigoted Religious Right >and its hip-pocket candidate Bush. The Bush ads and telephone calls >that Pat Robertson ran in this state were disgusting, truly revolting. > >And speaking of the Religious Right, they came into the most >conservative town in our state and ran a test-run new campaign to >polarise the community, on internet filters in the library. They hoped >to take this nationwide. It was the usual anti single parent family, >anti gay and anti lesbian, anti working women, anti everything >campaign. Among the websites that their filters would block are the >National Organisation of Women (to which I belong...), Planned >Parenthood (to which I belong), any pro choice orgainization (and I >belong to those too) and a lot of music sites (hip hop being devils >music, as is rock and roll). They spent a fortune in the most >conservative town in the state... and lost 45% to 55%. Civil liberties >prevail, at least for a night. I usually always refrain from political discourse, and I honestly don't want to debate these social issues right now, but do want to point out that in McCain's victory, civil liberties did *not* prevail, and The Religious Right still has a viable candidate. Taken from a CBS News web site, here are some of McCain's views, and, unfortunately, Vince, this is what you voted for, regardless of your beliefs: Rape/Incest Abortions Only -- Strongly Favor Gay Rights -- Strongly Oppose Affirmative Action -- Strongly Oppose Permitting Organized Prayer in Public Schools -- Strongly Favor Death Penalty -- Strongly Favor Constitutional Amendment Outlawing Flag Burning -- Strongly Favor Gun Control: Require Safety Course and Photo License -- Strongly Oppose I'm not coming down on you personally, Vince, I'm just saying that we have to be a lot more careful about this guy. In voting for McCain you are helping to ensure that he is the Republican nominee, and many feel that he could beat The Democrat whereas Bush can't. I think McCain is far more dangerous than Bush, who is simply the right-wing idiot we know, as opposed to the right-wing demagogue we don't know. Not for nothing does McCain compare himself to Reagan. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 03:04:16 PST From: "Raffaele Malanga" Subject: Judges in black and white The JMDL is a community, right? And, as any community, there are clear patterns of behaviour among its members as consequences of pride, accomplicity, indignation, offence, defence, compassion, etc. Although it’s not long that I am on this list, I was not surprised by the few episodes that have happened so far: people signing off, squabbles, disagreements and so on. It’s human and, as humans, we are so firm in our beliefs and opinions that sometimes forget that almost nothing is black and white; in fact, I think we live most of our lives in shades of grey, where only few things are certain (taxes, death and trouble, I guess...). One thing we JMDLers have in common: our love for Joni Mitchell’s work. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that we should be living in a totalitarian society, where one should be afraid of a Big Brother watching over what is said or not said. I have to admit of being an *obsessive* person, in that I tend to be obsessed with things or people I really like. All my friends keep wondering how I can listen over and over to the same albums (mostly Joni’s) and not being bored after a while. When I discover a writer I would read anything he or she has written. If I happen to like a place (a park, a café, a shop) I would return there anytime I have the chance to. But saying that, I should also say that I try being as open to critics as possible, accepting them if I find them fair. Speaking about Joni (IMHO is implied): I love the Mingus album in spite of bad critics and the general feeling among fans; I think (as mostly do) that the HOSL / DJRD period is the peak of Joni’s career, both musically and lyrically; although I like the first two albums, they tend to depress me; I still believe that she should have thought twice before recording DED and CMIAR (at least of the type of sound she gave to them, which is not as timeless as other works); I think the VG-8 (or whatever the name) makes TTT less interesting than what it must have been if she used acoustic guitar; I like the abstract and expressionist style of her paintings of the first period, but I’m not impressed at all by her latest efforts (the Idle painting in the TTT booklet looks Disney illustration to me); I enjoy BSN, but to say it’s her best in recent years sounds like a paradox to me as they are almost all covers. Can I still consider myself a JM fan in spite of my small critics? I could go on forever but they are just *my opinions*. You can agree or disagree, and then it’s up to me whether to accept your point of view or stick to mine. I shouldn’t unsubscribe to the list just because I didn’t get enough positive responses. Each one of us *is* different, thanks God. I don’t know whether a JM fan’s stereotype exists, but I tend to believe it doesn’t. As I believe there isn’t such a thing as a gay male stereotype. When I first moved to London and started going out in clubs and bars, I thought “Well, I must get more into standard gay icon divas, George Michael and Abba (to name a few)”. I though it was a way to be part of a community and be recognised as such. But, Abba’s tunes make me sick, I can’t stand George Michael face, and when it comes to bands like Step (sorry non-UK folks, you may not know them, lucky you) I’m really with Joni when she speaks about ‘junkfood music’. I haven’t met a gay male who is also a JM fan yet, but I know for sure I’m not the only one. I’m glad when I think about differences and complexity, as opposed to simplistic models applied to people. However, I mustn’t say I’m right and the others are wrong. I just don’t share their tastes or lifestyle, and this cannot make me a better person. I only tend to get hostile when I don’t see respect or am forced into things I don’t like. A little bit of sense of humour is also a good approach, I find. I always try not to take myself too seriously and really enjoy good sarcasm (I’m still laughing thinking of Bob’s post about looking for Waldo in the cover painting of BSN: I haven’t found the ‘heart on the sleeve’ thing myself yet!). Sorry for the long post. The latest discussions and events have been very stimulating. OK, I’m ready for the flood now ;-) PS. I din't label this NJC because 1) I'm not sure it's NJC and 2) I get the onlyJoniDigest and I love seeing my name in the posts I receive Raffaele in London (wondering whether he should take a less tolerating approach towards those who don’t like JM or have never heard of her, tying them on a chair and make them listen to the complete oeuvre in loop mode for a whole month, occasionally injecting them with high doses of stimulants not to fall asleep – OK, I’ve taken this from Clockwork Orange… I’ll snap out of it) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:15:07 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: gay stereotypes (NJC) Don't want to keep beating this almost dead horse, but so you know, I am a gay male who does not own any Barbra, Bette, Liza , Judy or Bernadette Peters albums or a single cast recording or musical sound track. I do have Shirley Bassey's and Petula Clark's greatest hits, and I loved Donna Summer's albums in her post-disco phase, particularly the ones produced by Quincy Jones. I have never liked opera, most musical theater leaves me cold, and I don't like watching sports, but I love to play them. On the other hand, I can make a tarte tatin that would may you lay on the floor and scream. Well, does anyone really need to tell us that it's always a problem when you cite generalities? That there are always as many exceptions as there are examples? I wouldn't have thought so on this list which is generally populated by a very bright group, but I can tell you what I know about my own people and their taste in music which *generally* is different from that of straight people. I'm sure there are some straight men who love Barbra, Judy, Liza, Bette et al, but their biggest fans are gay males. Most of the gay men I know prefer female singers, of some kind, over male singers. As someone with a lot of friends in theater, it's always a little unusual to meet those straight guys who love musicals. Oh yes, they exist, and some of them even write them, but in GENERAL, gay men are more inclined to this particular genre. Why is stating what's so obvious in any way homophobic? Please -- I've been out and proud for twenty years. "Homophobic" is not a word to be tossed around lightly. If you are a gay male of a certain age and live in an urban area, you know at least five men who love Barbra Streisand. They had a museum for her in San Francisco. The trend toward assimilation tries to tell straight people that we are just like them. We aren't -- and I embrace all my gay brothers and sisters who, due to their individual natures, happen to fulfill stereotypes of what gay people are thought to be like: sissified, cros s dressing, obsessed with Bette Davis, collectors of Barbie dolls, worshippers of Barbra Streisand. I count men in my life who are all of the above and do it proudly. The men I resent are the ones who hide their true natures, who are still in some way, in the closet if they dress in drag in private but look down on those who openly parade in female attire. One of my best friends, a troubled guy who met a very sad demise, was someone who was obsessed with Barbra Streisand. One day I caught him imitating her around his bedroom using his hairbrush as if it were a microphone. It was the ultimate hypocrisy, because he had told me it was always a bad sign when he went home with someone after a date and discovered that they were a fellow Barbra Queen. "Why have you been hiding this from me?" I asked him. He shrugged and said, "Because I didn't want you to think I was a total faggot." This kind of thinking has got to go, along with jokes about hair dressers and interior designers, as if being a lawyer or businessman was somehow more respectable because it's straighter. We are who we are and there is no shame in it, nor is there shame in recognizing and owning some of the (important word here) GENERALITIES which make us different as a group. One of those generalities is that MOST of us have a favorite female singer who says it for us. I was in a bar not too long ago when someone bought me a drink, was going on about Petula Clark and then asked "So who's your diva?" Of course I proudly told him it was Miss Joni Mitchell. He took a pause and said, "She the one who wrote that song about paving paradise?". lovingly, Clark NP: TLC - Fanmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:29:31 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles Someone mentioned Maire Brennan's version of BYT, I heard a version of BSN by her band Clannad which sounded decent enough. I've been looking for it for Bob's project. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:18:20 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles (now NJC?) philip wrote: > Someone mentioned Maire Brennan's version of BYT, I heard a > version of BSN by her band Clannad which sounded decent enough. > I've been looking for it for Bob's project. The track you're thinking of / looking for was featured on Paul Young's 1991 Singles Collection, "From Time To Time". Maire Brennan duetted with him on the song (with Clannad providing the music, I assume), and it's a beautiful version. It deserved to be a hit. Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:26:11 -0500 (EST) From: w evans Subject: Re: Gays and straights and Joni - NJC > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:12:08 +1300 > From: "Helen M. Adcock" > Subject: Re: Gays and straights and Joni - NJC > > Mindy wrote: > > >Music whether it be Joni Mitchell > >or Van Halen reaches everyone.Gay or straight. > > Absolutely! I've been getting a tiny bit annoyed with this thread. Saying > all gay men like Bette and Judy is like saying all gay women listen to kd Since you are so annoyed by it, let me remind you that the thread was started by and mainly contributed to by gay guys, at least two of others before I posted on Tuesday, who seemed at least bemused by (if not outright frustrated like me) the tastes that they encounter over and over again while meeting other gay guys. The thread has not been borne of ignorance or of stereotyping the "other;" rather, we've been taking note of our observations based on our own vast experience in the so-called gay community, and while I don't often whine about much this is a really good thing to whine about, especially in a forum where all of us examine every deep layer of being a Joniphile. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:21:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: Steely Dan (njc) Clips of all the tracks on the new steely album are available from www.steelydan.com. They are mp3s, so the quality is good! Very interesting sound - some are Kamakiriad-like, others have hints of what you could call "classic dan". Overall, a tight, dry sound, with some very nice quirky horn and synth lines ... Also (UK fans only) there is a 2 part Steely feature coming up on BBC radio 2. Part 1 is 26th Feb (this saturday!) 7pm-8pm. Part 2 is the following saturday. I think non-uk residents may be able to listen on-line. Try hunting around www.bbc.co.uk for a link ... Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:23:15 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: One down, ?? to go Fred sed: <> For Free IS in fact the Byrds selection, and Laughing is the version from Crosby's record. And man, is it nice! I'll plead ignorance and say that I don't have this Crosby record...is it all as good as this track? <> Fred, I'd love to include these in the "box set"! Can you toss them on tape or CD and send to me for inclusion? Bob Muller 309 West Prentiss Ave. Greenville, SC 29605 <> Please keep us posted on this one! I for one will GLADLY add it to my collection (with an autograph of course!) :~) Bob NP: Tori, "A Case of You" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:45:08 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry Potter (NJC) and Kakki Victor wrote:- >>Has anyone else read the Harry Potter books by J.K. Rowling? I read them all this week(two of them this weekend) and thought they were the best thing I had read in a long time. I remember reading all the Piers Anthony Xanth books in highschool. I used to be hooked on Fantasy novels. I'd really gotten away from that genre but Rowling is an amazing storyteller. From what I understand, she was a single mother, struggling, writing her stories down in cafes...<<< I've just started the latest Harry Potter book and am enjoying it immensely, although I rather wish I had read the earlier two first. They are phenomenally successful books in the UK but I wasn't sure that Rowling's style would travel well as it seems to be very "English prep school" from what I've read so far. Most adults I know who have read them have commented that the books are far too good for children! I would also like to take the chance to say that Kakki's posts are always the most enjoyable on this list - insightful, tolerant, informed and so enthusiastic. They are some of the ones I never "skip". I'm missing them. Come back soon, Kakki. Regards Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:22:05 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: "Busted!" -- My Conversation with Peter Erskine As many of you may know, I play the part of Larry Klein in defense of Joni from time to time ... which recently led to an interesting and humbling exchange of e-mails. After replying to a recent message from Jamie Zoob, and signing Larry's name, I returned to my computer the next day to find a message in my In-Box indicating it was from Peter Erskine, the legendary jazz drummer for Weather Report, who also plays on "Stormy Weather" and of course, BSN ... "Larry is that really you?" it asked. Now I like to pull chains as much as the next list member, so my immediate thought was that someone out there was playing Peter's part, much as I play Larry. But I decided to respond as if it were real ... I came clean, confessing that I was not in fact Larry Klein. Imagine my surprise when Peter wrote back the very next day. He said he'd subscribed to the jmdl to check reactions to BSN, thanked me for my honesty and related a wonderful story from the BSN sessions. Apparently Sir George Martin dropped by the studios, and was listening to the playback of some of the recently recorded tracks, and remarked to Joni "You know, this is the way we used to make records in the old days." He was also kind and gracious enough to mention that at several points during the recording, the orchestra members were literally crying over Joni's performances. So mind your P's and Q's out there list -- Joni may not be lurking, but be assured -- her drummer is! :-) Don Rowe (and ONLY Don Rowe for the forseeable future) ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:26:15 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: "Fan Addict" or "Connoisseur" - now NJC and fortified with vitamins Julie says: >"Saturday Night Live" was especially funny this past week. Ben >Affleck, who surprisingly impressed me the most....was host and the >talented, Fiona Apple, was the guest musician. >My favorite skit was a spoof on MTV's(?) "Fan Addict" show. This >sketch gave us a derelict Ben in braces playing a hilarious >stereotypical zealot fan who gets to meet Anna Nicole Smith I've seen the name Anna Nicole Smith a few times recently - but I have no idea who she is. Who is she anyway? Is she on some TV show? Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:32:03 -0600 From: "Mark T. Domyancich" Subject: Re: One down, ?? to go Sarah McLachlan also covered "Big Yellow Taxi" on the Lilith Fair disc. It's a horrible rendition of it. The backup singers sing "ooooh, bop, bop, bop, bop!" duh... NP-Morning Becomes Eclectic 9/12/94 - I forgot how good this is---I've played it nonstop lately! At 12:01 AM -0500 2/23/00, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: >Blue - Sarah McLachlan - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:37:04 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry Potter (NJC) and Kakki Jacky/Gertus writes: "I've just started the latest Harry Potter book and am enjoying it immensely, although I rather wish I had read the earlier two first. They are phenomenally successful books in the UK but I wasn't sure that Rowling's style would travel well as it seems to be very "English prep school" from what I've read so far. Most adults I know who have read them have commented that the books are far too good for children!" I read recently that they're going to produce an "Americanized" version of these for the US market because they don't think Americans would understand some of the British expressions and presumably these would be "translated" into "American". I hope that's not true. It really annoys me when that sort of thing happens because they're assuming either that Americans are too stupid to figure out what the "boot" of a car is, for example, or that Americans don't care about anything unless it's American. I've always loved "English" books, but I was kind of raised on them. My grandmother was English and I often think my father's side of the family was more English than Canadian. One of my aunts was always sending us English books, so I was used to that style. Every now and then, I come across an expression that I don't understand, but there's always context to help you out when that happens, or an English person to ask about it and after all, if you read Elmore Leonard, there's a lot of expressions he uses that I don't get either, and no one translates these into "standard English". These books are very popular in North America, certainly here in Canada anyway, one proof being there's a huge "hold" list on them at the library! A good story is a good story and I think sometimes, as a culture (or as a bunch of cultures!) we're so worried that someone won't undertand something that we tend to dumb things down too much and something gets lost. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:39:37 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: One down, ?? to go Mark writes: "Sarah McLachlan also covered "Big Yellow Taxi" on the Lilith Fair disc. It's a horrible rendition of it. The backup singers sing "ooooh, bop, bop, bop, bop!" duh..." I sweartagod - if I hear one more cover of BYT, I am going to throw up. Enough, already! (Joni did write another song or two, didn't she?) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:50:11 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Reincarnation (or, a X by any other name) - NJC I just want to let you know that, on the advice of a fellow jmdler, who says they get less spam with Yahoo than they do with Hotmail, I've decided to open another account with Yahoo.ca to see if this works out better, so I'm now in 2 places at once. Shortly, I will remove my hotmail name from the jmdl list. TTFN Catherine (aka Cateri@hotmail.com, now catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca), tired of being invited to visit porn websites, Florida, get-outta-debt and so on - is it me or what? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:55:00 -0600 (CST) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: gay stereotypes (NJC) A big thank you to Clark for a clear and articulate post on the importance of divas for many, but not all gay men. There certainly is a lot of variation within any sub/culture, and the boundaries are often quite fuzzy. BUT that doesn't mean that such a culture doesn't exist; that there isn't some common ground among the variation. I especially love that he ended with this, which brings up the only minor point I want to add: > NP: TLC - Fanmail In my experience, a particular fag's diva of choice (if he has one) is a reflection of not only his faggotry, but other important "social groupings" that have shaped his experiences; things like age, race, region of origin, and musical taste. In my social group, TLC is far more important and loved than Babs. That doesn't mean that we don't recognize the importance of Barbra fandom in shaping American gay culture up to this point, just that we turn to different women for our sass, and that our tastes reflect our own history and present. I love some of the classic gay divas, too--particularly Judy--but as a music slut I often get into them for the quality of the work more than the projection of shared or desired experience that usually goes into "fandom." When I say that Mary J. Blige is "my girl," I mean not only that I think she's an incredibly gifted singer (which I do), but that she embodies certain ineffable qualities that resonate for me as an individual, as an urban twentysomething, and as a gay man. That's why she's a gay diva for me. My love for Joni is not like that, but I can very easily understand how it is for some. My ultimate point is that while different gay/queer men may choose different artists for their fandom, each reflective of many other characteristics, there seems to be a common thread of gender-fuck among the choices. That is, the divas either show up gender conventions by their tragic oppression by them, or they transcend and reshape them. The relevance and need for such icons in our lives should be obvious, and I'm glad I have some who speak to me. - --Michael NP: Mary J. Blige, _My Life_ - ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Desire no more what you already possess. You are already free." - --Me'Shell NdegeOcello, "God Shiva" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:00:32 EST From: RIKandBRAD@aol.com Subject: Re: What's a good Carly Simon to buy? Mark in Seattle Wrote: 'Another Passenger' is one of Carly's best imo. I never thought that 'Dishonest Modesty' had anything to do with Joni. Great song, though. Wickedly witty lyrics. Mark in Seattle Anybody think this is about Joni? I can't see Carly being that mean-spirited but who knows? RikyRacer Responds: Amen, Mark. This is the best CS album since Anticipation imo and is the last of her best. One very, very cool song is Libby and no, I have never heard that Dishonest Modesty is about JM. Even though she disclaims Fairweather Father is about JT, Do we really believe her? Do we dare to start the rumors about You're So Vain, AGAIN? RikyRacer in Hollywood ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:05:17 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Bob's "Covers and Contributions" project This is great Bob! You'll be finished with this project way before the JM Tribute album is released. I'm looking forward to your box set more than the Tribute album. Any chance of a Limited Edition ? :-{) Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:45:54 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry Potter (NJC) In a message dated 23/02/00 16:37:13 GMT Standard Time, cateri@hotmail.com writes: > A > good story is a good story and I think sometimes, as a culture (or as a > bunch of cultures!) we're so worried that someone won't undertand something > that we tend to dumb things down too much and something gets lost. > > Good point, Catherine. I've read some Canadian and American novels recently ( Margaret Attwood, Jack Kerouac) and didn't really have a problem although I suppose I may have missed some finer points but it didn't spoil my enjoyment. It's interesting to find what good reading childrens books can be though. I heard JK Rowling interviewed recently and she was saying she often doesn't have any control over the direction the books take. They kind of write themselves. Sounds great. Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:41:56 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: why so blue? (njc) From: Anne Sandstrom Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:11:26 -0500 Hi fellow listers. I just got a short but wonderful email note from a friend on the list. It reminded me of what a great community this list is. It seems that of late we've been walking in the shadow of Wally's passing and the disappointment of the defects in the manufacturing of Joni's new release. Not to mention it's winter. But I heard a cardinal this morning singing away like it was spring... and the amaryllis are blooming profusely in my music room... and I've come to realize that sorrow can be like a nutrient that feeds love if you let it... I hope you can feel a bit of the warm winds of spring today. Fondly Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:56:58 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Cardinals, signs of spring - NJC Hey Anne! I heard a cardinal today too! Man, those guys get up early, so it's a good thing they have such a pretty song. But it is a sure sign that spring is coming, eventually. (Death and birth and death and birth). Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca (formerly cateri@hotmail.com) ===== Catherine (in Toronto) catrin_of_aragon@yahoo.ca (the former cateri@hotmail.com) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:19:55 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: gay stereotypes (NJC) > There certainly is > a lot of variation within any sub/culture, and the boundaries are often > quite fuzzy. BUT that doesn't mean that such a culture doesn't exist; > that there isn't some common ground among the variation. I have never really understood what 'gay culture' is. To many it is such as portrayed on the Ch4 series 'Queer As Folk'-drugs, one night stands and discos. For the still young, that seems to be what it is. When I was in that age bracket, it was too, tho I could never understand it. Mind you it is no different for the young and str8. Gay people,both men and women, live in all sorts of different ways, so diversely I cannot see how it is a 'culture'.I donn't like being pigeonholed be it by str8's or gays. My aspirations back then was to meet a man, fall in love, have a home and life together. That is what happened. For almost 19 years I have been lucky enough to have what i wanted. > > > > > > In my experience, a particular fag's diva of choice (if he has one) is > a reflection of not only his faggotry, Whilst I am sure I will be accused of being unhip I find these expressions offensive, regardless of the writers sexuality, and I am sure Michael dooesn't have that intentiion. (I am not saying you shouldn't use the terms yopu feel comfortable with-just that they make me wince. I know the reasons behind such terms -the reclamation-taking the sting out etc but it doesn't work for me). As for 'divas' and 'gay culture' shaping me, I don't think so. I have never met any gay men or women who have been into Joni or Carly.In fact until this list, never met anyone into them at all. I would suggest that myself, and other gay people, are more likely shaped as a result of living within a society that demeans us, that considers us degenerate, that doesn't believe our feelings and expressions of love are real and that leaves us out in the cold as regards our need/want for a spiritual aspect to life. I think this shapes us in a way that cannot be appreciated by those who don't live in such a climate. I think it has shaped me in a positve way, not a negative way. We can choose to react either way. From it I gained strength and compassion. When I was younger and 'doing the clubs' none of this seemed to make any difference. the real life consequences of such a society hadn't yet hit home. Living with another man for any length of time brings that home. Like the first time I was admitted into hospital and John was refused vistitaion as he wasn't next of kin. Like being charged well over th odds for life assurance just because john is gay. Well we didn't stand for that. We don't have any. we decided that buying into our insecurity and paying for their bigotry was not on. Like meeeting John at heathrow after a six week lecture tour and not feeling I could throw my arms around him and kiss him.(such displays are illegal here). yes, one could argue that men hug all the time but that is not the same. Just walking around shopping or whatever, one has to resist too obvious displays of affection. John doesn't get compaassionate leave for me. The times I have been ill he has either had to lie or take holiday time. Time off is only for wives, husbands or girlfriends and boyfriends-ie for st8's. Penison rights-I have none. The wya things are at the moment, I would only get the lump sum not the penison if John dies. he pays a fortune for it, like anyone else. his works BUPA(health cover) does not include me but would if I were his wife. However, despite all this, i am still blessed to have such a life, to have had God smile upon me and given me such a wonderful man to share my life with. we LIVE our life and have made the best of it. We live surrounded by houses full of str8's and their children. We are PART of this neighbourhood. To me, that has always been my stance-to be me no matter what. So many play a role instead of living a life. so many play at being a radical instead of living as a radical. Each day i live the way I do, each day I am showing you this is who i am and I will LIVE my life. I don't have to dress a particular way, act a particular way, have a particular ideolgy or whatever. I just have to be who i am. the personal is political and that is how I live. The way we live is a political act. Turning up for church every sunday as we do is a political act and those that accept us show their God to us. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:51:02 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: The Role of Critics! NJC David Wright wrote: > I think a really well-done analysis of this type can hardly even be > considered > positive or negative (in the way that some people complain about reviews > of Joni's or other albums) -- the important thing is how the analysis > *illuminates* the film/album/etc. as a work of art. In this kind of > treatment of a novel or a film, giving away the plot/ending might actually > be *necessary* (in analyzing its overall structure, or how it works), but > that doesn't bother me. A good example of this is the book on The Terminator which is part of the BFI (British Film Instutute)'s Modern Classics series. In this context of *posthumous* analysis with the intention of "illuminating the film as a work of art" (a great way of saying it, David!), I agree that a very detailed approach is often necessary and effective. The Terminator edition is a very impressive, enlightening and perceptive view of the seminal sci-fi action film (which, as a result of the book, has become one of my all-time favourites). > Part of the thing with the kind of criticism I like is that it > requires a lot of space to be good, the kind of space that most > corporate-owned newspapers and magazines don't give their writers anymore > (so they can bring in more advertising revenue). This is a pertinent point IMHO, I agree. Such forms of intelligent, analytical and incisive overview do indeed require more than the usual two or three columns allocated in most magazines and newspapers. I still believe that even with such restrictions, it is possible to retain the essence of good criticism. > One of my favorite Joni reviews is Perry Meisel's article on > _Hejira_ (from the Village Voice, on jmdl.com). I don't agree with or even > like everything in the article -- it's called "How Joni Mitchell Fails" -- > but I'd rather read it than many more "positive" reviews of the album. > Some people probably find the article pretentious, but the fact that > Meisel thought enough of Joni's work to treat it on the level that he did > is itself a very high form of praise, in my opinion. Another excellent point. A *good* review doesn't necessarily have to praise its subject, unconditionally or otherwise. By the same token, a *bad* one can quite conceivably be positive. I'd place the recent Daily Mail article in this latter category. Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:18:45 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: More Steely Dan info... njc Also via the Metheny list comes this: Steely Dan are scheduled to be on PBS television stations nationally on Wednesday, March 1st at 10:00 P.M., including studio work for their new album. Check your local listings! :-> Can anyone verify? Thanks, Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:23:56 -0500 From: "lpeakes" Subject: Re: why so blue? (njc) < But I heard a cardinal this morning singing away like it was spring... and > the amaryllis are blooming profusely in my music room... and I've come to > realize that sorrow can be like a nutrient that feeds love if you let it... > > I hope you can feel a bit of the warm winds of spring today. > > Fondly > Anne>> Thanks, Anne - you must be a New Englander ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:15:40 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles (now NJC?) Jason replied about Clannad and BSN: > The track you're thinking of / looking for was featured on Paul Young's > 1991 Singles Collection, "From Time To Time". Maire Brennan duetted with > him on the song (with Clannad providing the music, I assume), and it's a > beautiful version. It deserved to be a hit. Paul Young you say. I will widen my search, to the bargain racks. Thanks Jason. Actually Paul Young's ok, he took a bit of a bashing from the critics. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:31:35 EST From: NathanLaFraneer@aol.com Subject: Haven;t we Waited Long Enough? I have been hearing about this Joni tribute project for like 3 and a half years now. I am starting to have doubts that it will ever materialize at all. For gosh sake, it's a TRIBUTE album, not the Ring of the Nibelung. Why the delay? That interview on the Joni site that Wally had with the woman behind the tribute project was almost a year ago now. (That was a badly structured sentence, but please ignore it.) I mean, let's see ... in those three and a half years, we've had Hits, Misses, TTT, and now BSN. I had originally heard it would not be released in 1998 so as not to steal thunder from TTT. But really ... were any of us to take this long with a project we had to do at work, we'd have some explaining to do. No, I am too tired to storm Reprise with emails or what have you, I just want to know...will it happen, or should we just forget about it? I guess you could say, "I've been sitting up waiting for my album to show, I've been listening to the sirens and..." Oh forget it. So..what's going on? Ed ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:41:49 -0600 From: Joseph Davis Subject: Re: I made a BSN conversion! Excellent choice for the old Joni head lost in the wilderness! Still get misty at the the sheer POWER of "The Magdeleana Landries" and if and when I ever get my teaching certification, I'm gonnna teach "The Sire of Sorrow" in my poetry classes - just excellence. Alan Lorimer wrote: > >Question is, what do you-my fellow experts think that someone > >who's been out of the Joni-loop for over twenty years and who loved > >the new album would respond best to? > > Jerome, > How about "Turbulent Indigo"? I can't think of a "mature" Joni album > which would be better for introducing old Joni fans to her new music. > Powerful lyrics, stunning music combing the best of the old with the new. > You still get some excellent acoustic work while being introduced to the > newer VG-8 based songs. > > On the other hand, I must admit that tracks such as "Slouching Towards > Bethlehem" on NRH would be absolutely mind blowing to older Joni fans who > haven't heard some of her "newer" music before > > Alan Lorimer > Hawley Beach > Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:47:33 -0600 From: Joseph Davis Subject: Re: Audiophile's Corner; NJC good to see another audiophile on the JMDL......though, actually, i prefer to call myself a musci lover - even if a hit the damn powerball (what is it? 70 mill now?!?!?!) i wouldn't buy krell, levinson, or any of those people - prefer what's known as midfi stack: Rega Planar 3, RB300tonearm, Elys cartridge, Camelot Merlin DAC w/ Cambridge CD4 transport, NAD 1300 preamp, Arcam D290P power amp (75 into 8 90 into 4 - PERFECT), Tascam DA302 dual DAT (a must for the home recorder/Deadhead), and System Audio 650 loudspeakers with Tara Labs cable. Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > Hi folks, > I received the March 2000 issue of Stereophile Magazine. In Michael > Fremer's article is a list of four LP stores that sell (what else?) LPs.:) > Joni's superlative "Court and Spark" is currently in-print as an LP > ("vinyl") from a company called DCC. I'll bet you can hear the tape edits > with this one. Yeah, baby! (Hey, I know that "Yeah, baby" is outdated as a > catch phrase, but what do you _want_ from me? I'm old. Where are my teeth! > It's time for my prunes!) And no, I'm not gonna post the URLs (Internet > addresses) of the LP stores; you can't make me! Support Stereopile. Or ask > me nicely off-list.:) > > As an example of a used record gold mine he recent haunted, Fremer enthuses, > "The spines of gatefold LPs like Joni Mitchell's "Blue" hadn't even been > cracked." A fellow Joniphile/vinylphile! > > BTW (by the way), you can now subscribe to Stereophile for $11.97 (American > dollars & mailed to the US, or $13.00 for shipment to Canada, or $15.00 to > anywhere else on the planet. All prices are in US dollars. Honest.) Why > subscribe? To find out about premium quality stereo brands that you've > never, ever heard of before. Some of them even sound better than Pioneer > receivers mated to Bose speakers. Honest. ;-) (wink with a big nose) > > BTW, Rolling Stone likes the new Steely Dan, due in stores on Leap Year Day. > > np: David Gilmour's "About Face" from the Floyd-less mid 80s. > > All the best, > Jim L'Hommedieu near Cincinnati ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:39:12 +1000 From: john low Subject: RE: Critics of all expression...(NJC)...I suppose Catherine, You wrote: “The sad part is, I can’t think of one critic who stands out for me in a positive know-thy-stuff kind of way …” Have you come across Greg Quill who, I believe, is now one of Toronto’s (and Canada’s) leading rock music journalists? He’s actually an Australian and was a well-known and influential musician here in the 1970s when he fronted one of our best country rock bands, “Country Radio”. I think he traveled to Canada on a travel grant from the Australia (Arts) Council and eventually settled there and pursued a career in music journalism. An excellent obituary he wrote for Rick Danko, originally published in the Toronto Sun, was recently re-printed in Australia’s best music magazine Rhythms. While I’m not broadly familiar with his work and I don’t know if he has ever written about Joni I think, as a critic, he might be one of the “good guys”. John (in Sydney). __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #111 ***************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?