From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #109 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 22 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 109 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Subject: Re: Cryptic Music Artist Quiz - NJC [CarltonCT@aol.com] Cryptic Music Artist Quiz(NJC) [M.D.Quinn@shu.ac.uk (Mike QUINN\(CMS\))] Homophobic? Standing by my statements - NJC [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: Most Likely, a question that has been asked over and over again (SJC) [KJHSF@aol.c] FW: Carly albums (njc) ["Ross, Les" ] Worship Divas [Joseph Palis ] Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles [Joseph Palis ] Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #108 [w evans ] Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles [Joseph Palis ] Re: Public Flogging ["Catherine McKay" ] Is this for real??? [Louis Lynch ] This is for real [Louis Lynch ] Re: Private e-mails NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Homophobic? Standing by my statements - NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Kakki [Steve Dulson ] Re: Kakki [Janet Hess ] Re: Critics of all expression.... [philipf@tinet.ie] Steely Dan (njc) [Les Irvin ] A few words about Wally [leslie@torchsongs.com] Joni's BSN Review in Rolling Stones Magazine [mann@chicagonet.net] Email eze [Julie Webb ] Re: Joni's BSN Review in Rolling Stones Magazine [Don Rowe ] "Fan Addict" or "Connoisseur" [Julie Webb ] Re: Steely Dan (njc) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Netiquette link (NJC) [Scott Price ] The Role of Critics! NJC [john low ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:48:12 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Subject: Re: Cryptic Music Artist Quiz - NJC > > The ones we're stuck on are: "Sent for porridge" Hall and Oates (hauling oats). ? Clark > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:15:51 +0000 From: M.D.Quinn@shu.ac.uk (Mike QUINN\(CMS\)) Subject: Cryptic Music Artist Quiz(NJC) Helen M. Adcock wrote: >> Sorry for using up bandwidth on this, but I really need some help! A friend >> sent me a list of cryptic clues to bands or artists, and we're stuck on the >> last three. I'm sure one of the music sluts will be able to decipher them! >> >> This is how it works: >> "Nun toboggan" = Sister Sledge >> "Elizabeth, Victoria, Mary" = Queen >> "Young men selling mice" = Pet Shop Boys >> >> The ones we're stuck on are: >> >> "Preserve reflect on famous river" Helen I've got that one: Jamiroquai (Jam-mirror-Kwai ...as in Bridge over the river Kwai) Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:27:00 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Homophobic? Standing by my statements - NJC Ken's right -- I don't know why my stating the obvious about who the most popular gay divas are could in any way be construed as homophobic. Let's just look at record sales or something. I'll tell you this -- I went to see Donna Summer on New Year's Eve a few years back, and singing along with every lyric was her audience of 90 per cent gay men. Barbra acknowledges that her biggest audience is gay men, but she doesn't understand her appeal to them. Bette completely acknowledges her predominantly gay audience and never forgot them from her beginning at the Continental Baths and all through the AIDS crisis. Judy knew her core audience was gay men, but she also blamed them for killing her career. Liza knows she inherited her fans from her mother. Madonna knows her audience is gay men and said she wants to be the world's biggest fag hag (we already had the fag hag discussion a year ago). One great thing about having a gay male audience is that gay men keep buying music after college. I know hundreds, perhaps thousands of gay men, (not all in the Biblical sense) and have found only a few Joni fans among them but no devotees until I joined this list. Most of us love pop and musicals and a lot of us love opera. I don't know of a single other gay man who likes jazz as much as I do, or even guitar music. As a group, we tend to be more oriented towards the piano. I've met even fewer gay men who share my taste for classic rock music. Other than Freddy Mercury, Michael Stipe, Elton John, Little Richard, all the males of the B-52s and a few others, we are under-represented as performers in rock music. We are over-represented in musical theater. Of course, there are exceptions, me being one of them. - Please, my gay brothers. I didn't say ALL, I said most. And I didn't say anything was better or lesser. One rock n' roll diva left out of this discussion is Stevie Nicks who has a considerable gay following of rock n' roll homos. I'm looking forward to the Night of a Thousand Stevies where men from all over Los Angeles will be taking their shawls and capes out of the mothballs to converge for a whirl-a-thon to their favorite diva. - - Clark (the original rock n' roll homo). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:42:15 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Most Likely, a question that has been asked over and over again (SJC) I have information about Rosanna Arquette. She is a big Joni fan and devotee. She was involved in getting some California politician elected to some office (possibly Jerry Brown, though I can't remember for sure, politics BORE me), and asked Joni to perform at a fund-raiser. Apparently, Joni came and played "The Last Time I Saw Richard", and Rosanna was blown-away. She has been quite vocal about her love for Joni. Perhaps she asked to introduce Joni in PWWAM out of this reverence, though she's a little too effusive IMHO. Oh--maybe it wasn't Jerry Brown, rather the campaign to elect McGovern for president way back in the seventies, and a young Arquette witnessed the perormance. I just can't remember. God, I feel old. "First you're green, then you're grey" Ken in SF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:46:54 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: FW: Carly albums (njc) So, Spoiled Girl is Carly's Dog Eat Dog (new thought, see what you mean). I hadn't bought a Carly album before Spoiled Girl although I knew her singles. When I heard 'My New Boyfriend' on the radio at the time of release, I was impressed by what I perceived as a brave new move for her. I think that Black Honeymoon is an excellent song although Tired of being Blonde is a cracker (that's good in Blighty speak) and one to which I jump around and yell in an extravagantly tuneless way. Les (London) I completely agree, Evian! A while back somebody on the list said they thought 'No Secrets' was Carly's best album. I don't think so! As a matter of fact, although that was the first one I bought & I love 'You're So Vain,' I would rank 'No Secrets' down below a lot of her later output. 'Hello, Big Man', 'Spoiled Girl' (Carly's Dog Eat Dog) or 'Boys in the Trees' are all much better than NS imo. And CAA, LNS & Another Passenger would all be toward the top of the list for me. Mark in Seattle (wrapping this up before somebody accuses me of making this 'the Carly Simon list) BTW: You can certainly tell it's a full moon tonight! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:51:05 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Worship Divas I have been reading with keen interest the ongoing discussion about worship divas, homophobia, critics, and I find the discussion rife with insightful observations borne out of long experiences by the writers themselves with these issues. Thanks for the enlightenment. One thing I would like to say is the identification (almost like McCarthyism witch-hunting) of gays by the artists/divas they like or music they prefer. I am straight but I never hide the fact to people (especially in homophobic Manila) that I find Judy Garland's voice beautiful and that I prefer it to so-called urban divas of late. And yes, when I as much as discuss Judy Garland in public, people always assume I am gay because they perceive Garland fans as gays. Sometimes I get irritated by the narrowness of their definitions, but most of the time I let it pass because they are entitled to what they feel is right, as much as I am entitled to my opinions. Not too many people here (in the circle I move) knows Joni Mitchell, sad to say. They know more about Carole King and Carly Simon. If they do know Joni, it is through her BSN song. That's at least a good sign, in terms of the sales of Joni's latest album. Joseph PS. I requested my girlfriend to inquire about this singer Yma Sumac (as I read great things about her singing style in the Net) and when she finally found someone who knows Yma, that person asked my girlfriend if I am gay. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:30:14 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles I have often thought what it would be like to have a Joni tribute by artists who are in various musical genre (I know, I know. Music genre were manufactured by people in the music industry to make it easier for other people to trawl through a whole catalogue of various styles). In my wish list, here's my line-up Renee Fleming Janis Siegel Amy Holland Glenn Close Trisha Yearwood Blossom Dearie Dawn Upshaw Melissa Etheridge Oleta Adams Carly Simon Mary Black Lorrie Morgan Sade Carly Simon Cleo Laine And how I would have loved tohear Ella Fitzgerald sing one Joni song. Joseph (listening to the heartbeats of homes, courtesy of two felines, in the wee hours of the morning) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:01:16 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles Mary Black did cover "Urge for Going." I love Mary and I love that song, but I was unmoved by her cover version. Sounded sterile to me. At 07:30 PM 2/22/00 +0800, you wrote: >Mary Black Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:54:43 -0500 From: Maggie McNally Subject: Re: Get BSN for free!!!! Excuse me, but since when is BSN NOT Joni content??? May be indirect, but as long as it had SOME connection, it's cool with me. Maggie A Joni-content onlyer At 03:28 PM 2/21/00 EST, you wrote: >I'll probably get clobbered by not labeling this NJC, but I thought everyone >might be interested in this offer. Oh, no, Laura's freebie fever has rubbed >off on me! Oldsmobile is offering a $50 CdNow Gift Certificate just for test >driving an Alero by 4/29/00. Go to: www.alero.com and check it out! >With apologies if I've upset any Joni-onlyers. > >Hugs, >Ashara >www.photon.net/lightnet > > Maggie McNally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:46:15 -0500 (EST) From: w evans Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2000 #108 > > Ross, > > I don't think homophobia is intended by anyone making the statements about > > what "their" divas are. As a gay man, I have been told to "turn in my > card", > > whatever that means, because I lack the proper diva-worship. I happen to > > agree with Carlton that the VAST MAJORITY of gay men I've met fall into > that > > same category musically (Madonna, Crystal Waters, Steisand, Garland etc.) > > This is not meant to be a judgement of their character, just an > observation > > of the sign-of-the-times and musical tastes. Why is that homophobic to > you? > > ruminate on the phonebook in a valid and brilliant way). Music is so > > important to me that it would not serve me to be involved with someone > > romantically who has no appreciation for Joni. I think that is the point > for > > many gay men who struggle to seek a partner and encounter men with musical > > tastes tht run more toward the Madonna/Streisand/Bette/ etc thing. That > is > > their frustration. Calling them homophobic for this observation about the > > demographics of musical taste, which threatens no one's life, freedom or > > happiness, is going a little overboard. Though I feel compassion and > > Peace and Love and, if your ex who loves Joni is available and it's okay > by > > you, I'd love to meet him, > > Ken in SF > > NP: (appropriately, and not the madonna song) BORDERLINE > > I feel much the same way, but even worse because I really do think it speaks to a guy's character whether or not he's been manipulated by the media and the gay subculture into liking what everyone else likes, and I've met so many guys who don't have anything in common with me musically and have turned out to be major flakes once i tried to overlook that and go out with a few of them anyways. Recipe for disaster right there. I don't smoke or drink or enjoy loud techno at all, and I'm only 30 and don't want a "daddy" so it's really difficult for me. I really ought to move to England but I have no choice because of family but to be in Atlanta. I really feel oppressed by the gay world sometimes because I so don't fit in to it. When I say that it speaks to one's character, what I mean is that I think people's souls have certain shapes to them, and these shapes have contours that fit well with certain musics and styles--- different all-over musical map goes with a different soul shape. Am I judging people too harshly? I have a gut reaction when I meet people for the first time and learn a bit about them and think to myself "typical technofag...." when they tell me how much they love to dance to that shit, it just makes me feel so alienated and alone. - --ken in atlanta ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:53:17 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles But I liked another Celtic singer Maire Brennan's cover of Joni's Big Yellow Taxi in her MISTY EYED ADVENTURE album On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Deb Messling wrote: > Mary Black did cover "Urge for Going." I love Mary and I love that song, > but I was unmoved by her cover version. Sounded sterile to me. > > > At 07:30 PM 2/22/00 +0800, you wrote: > >Mary Black > > > Deb Messling > messling@enter.net > http://www.enter.net/~messling/ > > I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. > - Joni Mitchell > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:12:26 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Tribute in Various Musical Styles Joseph wished: <> I put her version of "BSN" on my Covers collection, Volume 1. I thought it would be crummy, but I was pleasantly surprised. Her voice is pretty cheesy imo, but the arrangement of the song is really unique & pretty. Meanwhile, seeds are blowing in for the next volume... Bob NP: The Cure, "Maybe Someday" (from their new record) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:28:02 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: Private e-mails NJC At 02:41 AM 2/22/00 -0500, dsk wrote: >This, plus Beverly's story of an experience 3 years ago, makes me wonder if >people are actually receiving nasty e-mails *now* or if it's just the memory of >such past experiences that makes some people wary about posting. When I joined >the list a couple of years ago there was a lot of talk about nasty private >e-mails, which made posting rather scary, but other than during the heated >political discussions last Spring, I never received any, and didn't hear about >anyone else receiving any so I thought it wasn't happening anymore. > You are right, Deb. This did happen a while ago and I should have specified that. That experience has always made me a little gun shy in posting, though, and this is something that my inner self has to deal with. I just hope that the people who recently joined the JMDL don't get disturbing private e-mails because of what they post to the JMDL. You make a good point about missing out on posts if one doesn't post themselves. The JMDL is truly an interesting place to be. In fact, if my husband and I are in a quandry over something I tell him "Gee, someone on the JMDL will know!" ;-) Heather >The only disturbing private e-mails I've ever received were toward the end of >the discussion that started last April with people's reactions to the shootings >at Columbine and eventually became a sometimes heated argument about the First >Amendment and gun control (all completely NJC). Shortly after that political >discussion wound down, it came to light that some people were being abused, >insulted, or made uncomfortable during that discussion by unsolicited private >e-mails from people on the list. There was an intense discussion (in early July >I think) about what to do about this. The result of it was Les writing up a >list of the various steps a person can take if this is happening to her or him. >It's part of the information you can read when you first subscribe to the list >and, basically, the steps are: ask the person to stop, or use filters so you >don't receive that person's e-mails, and send the e-mails to Les if it keeps >happening (not that he's a policeman here, but it helps I think if it's not >kept just between you and whoever is insulting you). It's *never* a good idea >to post a private message to the list. My solution was to upgrade my browser so >that I could filter out whoever I didn't want to hear from privately (didn't >even know such filters existed until list members told me). > >Anyway I'm writing this whole history, which probably many of you know already, >to ease the fear some people might have when they hear about the possibility of >receiving nasty e-mails. Other than during that time, I've always received very >positive, funny, appreciative or I-can-relate type private posts, which always >impresses me since I know how easy it is to read something that I like and not >take the time to write a note about it. And it makes it *feel* like these words >are going to actual people instead of to some unknowable void. > >So the short story (maybe I should have put this at the top :-) is: don't let >hearing about possible negative posts keep you from expressing yourself because >I think such posts are rare and, if it does happen, there are ways to deal with >it, and, if you don't go ahead and post what you're thinking, you won't ever >get any of those "goody" posts either. > >Debra Shea > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:32:37 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Critics of all expression...(NJC).....I suppose Jason writes: "In the UK music press, it does seem that a caustic, negative and "I'm smarter than you" attitude seems a prerequisite for any budding writer. That continually worries me, not only from a readership point of view (the underlying and unrelenting cynicism becomes demoralising after a while) but also because I'd like to become involved in some form of music/film journalism/criticism." This kind of negative criticism isn't confined just to the UK. It seems to me that the best critics, the ones I would trust the most, are those that have a true enthusiasm for their subject areas. Not to say that they should gush over everything they see/read/hear, but if they know their stuff and genuinely enjoy it, to me, that's a better indicator than some wiseass who thinks s/he knows it all. I don't know how many reviews I've read of Joni's work, for example, where it's evident that the critic knows her only by "Big Yellow Taxi" or the "Blue" album, which is truly infuriating. The sad part is, I can't think of one critic who stands out for me in a positive know-thy-stuff kind of way - although I would say that Ebert and Shallit (sp?), the US film critics, (the thumbs-up guys), one of whom has now died, were pretty close. They seemed to genuinely like their subject and the neat thing about it was often they would disagree with one another, but they never put anything (or one another) down and they seemd to really enjoy each other's company as well. I don't think you should be put off by the fact that you're NOT negative. There's a big difference between the overblown PR stuff put out by the marketing people in various media who always use the most superlative adjectives their thesauri will supply, and the commentaries/criticisms of someone who genuinely loves their stuff. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:31:59 EST From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: More on Wally---listening to the Blue Notes Hi, Wally's death has really been very sad for all of us here and I don't blame any of us for wanting to move on, but I thought we could perhaps linger on these sad notes just a little longer. When I saw the photos of Joni and Wally together, I thought, how brave Wally looked fighting back the pain but also so serene. He clearly had made peace with his passing. Wally passes on and Joni's "classiest" album comes out at the same time with her best paintings. How wonderful it was that Wally was with his friends. We live in a world that fears pain and death. It runs away from it like an Armani spring collection. We are often uncomfortable with the dying and the sick. As our dear Kay of this list recently told me, "it's because it reminds them of their own mortality. What we will all will go through." Look, we even locked up Kervorkian. The baby boomers have taught us much, that life doesn't end after thirty and smoking pot is ok as long as you don't inhale and the like but, you still don't see many of them selling you anything on the tube. It's even worse if you're a woman. A woman in her mid thirties is often told she's too old to play opposite a thirty something man. So many people let the passing of years settle on their hearts like stones, they have cried rivers around their eyes and they expect fifty years to be cut away with a scalpel. A friend of mine who has full-blown aids said, "People live as if they have the years coming. As if they're entitled to them." He lives more in a week than most of us do in a year. He dances, he is a scientist, he paints scenes of his childhood in Haiti, he calls his girlfriend Queen Latifah in Paris just for fun and everyone believes him. We are, if we live long enough, going to die. Sometimes this is accompanied by pain so great it is an ocean that cannot be measured. Sometimes the pain itself will kill you. If you think about it, all the stuff you will acquire will end up in some yard sale someday. All your lovemaking and all your passion and you will still become as a bleached shell on the beach, and then you too, to the beach again. But it's the clutching that causes the pain, not the yielding. The empty hand is the richest. It took me a long time to really understand that. I would lie beside Mrs. Chili, her face still smooth and round, a belly like a runway model, and I would think I want to keep you this way always. After 20 years, she has become my lover,my mother, and my child. I want to hold her and keep her safe forever, but I can't. I would even give up my own life for her but that still will not stop the snows of winter. I know some of you are going through the same thing Wally went through, or know someone who is. Don't go through it alone. Call a hospice. Be with your friends. Find a pain doctor with a heart. Let yourself cry and laugh and don't be afraid. Find people who have looked death right in the face and said I am not afraid. Let them hold your hands. Let them hug you. Let yourself cry and laugh and don't be afraid. Warmly, - -Chili NP (Now painting) Mrs. Chili just finished her first painting of 2000. Oil on canvas. "Sweet peas on a jute trellis". She got right to the next one " Green grapes on the vine." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:42:23 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Public Flogging (NJC) Michael wrote: 'why don't we just expose these people who are sending ugly email out there. I am sure if someone is being offensive to the list, they can be removed (by popular demand) and it least warned about their behaviour or publically stoned or whatever." I agree (well, maybe not about the stoning bit, but the warning about behaviour, yup. If someone doesn't like what an individual has to say, that's fine - people don't always agree and, if we all did, life would be pretty boring. But the FOAD kind of e-mails some people seem to have received from other listers are fair game as far as I'm concerned. You also wrote: "I have been very careful not to post things that people send to me privately cause I got in trouble for doing it once (before I had nettiquette)." I presume you're talking about the kind of stuff people send to you privately, where they just want clarification of a point you've made, but they don't want to make an issue out of it. I can see how people might be upset if you "exposed" them in that case - after all, many people are shy and have the right to be. On the other hand, copying the list can happen by accident, so I hope no one gets *too* upset if that does happen from time to time. But if you're talking about the negative stuff, where people are just insulting you, calling you names, swearing at you and so on, to me, that's fair. These people need to be reminded to play nice. (Once a mum, always a mum!) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:20:10 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Public Flogging Mark writes beautifully and expressively: "This whole business of people getting mean-spirited private email from list members has come up before & it really pisses me off royally. Whoever it is that is doing this, JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE???" And so on... Well said, Mark. I wonder if they're the same doofuses (doofi?) who send out all that pointless spam inviting one to visit porn sites, invest in some stupid venture, take out health insurance, win a trip to Florida and so on. Man, am I getting sick of that! Maybe it's just because I'm using "Hotmail", the "free" e-mail service. However, I took my name off their directory and given that I'm only on this list and no other, I'm leaning towards thinking that people sign onto these lists just so they can create mailing lists for whatever weird thing they're into. The thing I have to wonder is, why??? First of all, whoever does this obviously hasn't done their homework, or they'd realize that an investment or health insurance plan that may work in the US doesn't necessarily work outside of the US. They would likewise probably figure it out that, if I were interested in seeing sex acts on the internet, I'd figure out a way to get there myself, wouldn't I, without having it shoved in my face by someone who gets [what???] out of it?? It concerns me in particular because anyone can get a Hotmail (or Yahoo, or whatever) account and if so, this kind of stuff could be going to children. I was going to bring this up before, but I didn't want to get into this with the jmdl simply because I wasn't sure if it was an issue for other listers - however, a while back, a fellow lister mentioned something about the e-mails he gets inviting him to see live nude dwarves (or whatever.) Despite the obvious humour his e-mail intended, it actually comforted me to know that I wasn't the only one getting this kind of stuff (in the beginning, i was actually getting quite paranoid about it.) So, OK, I fight back by blocking the sender and, when I'm really in a rotten mood (who me? naaah!), I forward the offending e-mail to abuse@[name-the-ISP].com but, more often than not, the offender has somehow forged the name and they're not in fact a member of that particular ISP's list anyway. Something I just recently learned is that, if you're going to do that, you have to include the "long" version of the sender's message headers which presumably picks up more info than the "short" version would be. Yeah, I know I should just ignore this crap, but I really have to wonder why would anyone bother with this? If it's a marketing ploy, it can't be a very good one and probably ranks up there with dropping flyers off on people's cars in the parking lot so if there's anyone out there who's guilty of spamming a) kindly knock it off b) read up on marketing research and target your audience according to who is most likely to be interested in your product. (Wheeeewwww) I'm OK now. Cheerio. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:26:05 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: Is this for real??? Hi all, Returning to the list after a long but trying weekend, I find this post from Lisa... ************************************************************************* I have recently joined and now must remove myself from this "discussion" list. Where are the discussions. It's been more like "diss' cussions...superficial banter, mean spirited jabbering and generally too many people with too little to say (in my opinion). What a waste of talent and time. Try spending it doing something meaningful for your community, your families or yourselves. Joni (and wally, whom we own a debt to) would appreciate it. L. nebenzahl *************************************************************************** Is this some kind of joke? If so, what a spit in the face! Lisa, you should not accuse other people of being "mean spirited" -- you seem to have the market cornered on mean spiritedness single-handedly. How dare you deign to tell us what our late friend Wally would appreciate! What a horrible and hurtfully disrespectful thing to say to people who are still actively mourning the loss of a vital centerpiece of our Internet community. Your words are worse than stupid -- they are heartless. This list is not a waste of talent and time for the ones who use it appropriately. We have created a network for information and discussion and humor and commiseration. It's not all highbrow -- we are human, after all, and sometimes we just like to talk about the weather. True, we don't all agree on every issue. Sometimes we criticize each other, sometimes we say things that are offensive, and sometimes we even makes fools of ourselves. But, even through the negative comments, we enjoy the interaction. Our objectives for this discussion list are interaction and communication. We don't pretend that this list is anything more. As far as meaningfulness to our communities, you might be surprised to find that this list comprises people who ARE leading successful lives, raising families, creating worthwhile works of art and music, serving our communities and reaching pretty lofty heights. We are mature adults who don't have unrealistic expectations of what other mature adults should say, do or be -- something you'll understand some day. I generally tend not to chastise other people in writing, but in your case, I'm going to make an exception: Young lady, the comments above indicate that you are full of your own self-righteous shit. Your message reeks of cruelty, bitterness and dysfunction, and you should be careful to assess what you are doing with your own talent and time before criticizing others. The intelligent and inspired people on the Joni Mitchell Discussion List do not deserve your abuse, so take it elsewhere and keep it there. Lou ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:36:02 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: This is for real Hello Joni Discussion List, I couldn't help but respond to the person who criticized our list so inappropriately. I want to affirm that I enjoy reading the posts from all of you on the list, and I'm glad to be numbered among you. Sure, the disagreements and stupid little jokes and ridiculous stuff aren't the cream of literary history, but I gratefully accept them along with the brilliant and sublime. Even though I get busy and have to skim, I still look forward to the posts - -- especially yours Kakki! And Ashara, and Don Rowe/Whoever, and Catherine, and Michael Paz, and David Lahm, and Catgirl, and Jerry, and ... well, you get the picture. (Even you, catman!) So keep up the good work, and write what you want! And, the curse of perpetual nicotine withdrawal symptoms on anyone who criticizes this list again! Love and regards, Harper Lou . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:07:52 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Private e-mails NJC Debra writes: "The result of it was Les writing up a list of the various steps a person can take if this is happening to her or him." Thanks for pointing that out. It actually never occurred to me to check back on that stuff and I guess I didn't sign up until after all the stuff was happening, so I had never seen much that was really nasty. Every now and then there's an argument that gets (possibly) a bit out of control. Recently I actually saw one lister tell another one to FO, but I assumed the writer was in a really bad mood that day and ignored it. Part of the problem with e-mail of course, is there's no "tone" involved, no body language or facial expressions so, if a person who has a particularly dark sense of humour posts something they perceive as funny, it could easily be interpeted by someone else as serious and awful. Even with the use of emoticons, what one person thinks if funny may be downright nasty to another. We don't know anything about one another's backgrounds, so if someone has been abused physically, emotionally, sexually or whatever, or has suffered any form of discrimination, or is very sensitive, what may seem innocuous to one may be truly horrible to another. Anyway, that's enough from me... Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:24:13 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Homophobic? Standing by my statements - NJC Clark says: "I'm looking forward to the Night of a Thousand Stevies where men from all over Los Angeles will be taking their shawls and capes out of the mothballs to converge for a whirl-a-thon to their favorite diva." ROTFL! It sounds like an event not to be missed - and I'm not even a Stevie fan! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:40:28 +0000 From: M.D.Quinn@shu.ac.uk (Mike QUINN\(CMS\)) Subject: Genius of Joni and Clouds I have been looking at all the album covers on the Genius of Joni Mitchell page from Jason Maloney's web site (http://freespace.virgin.net/jason.maloney/Slipstream_menu.html). Its a treat to see all those brilliant covers together on the screen, it brought back to me memories of the delights when I first bought them. (Well done Jason- but have you forgotten MOA?) Some of the covers are opened out showing front and back. Seeing both sides now (sorry I couldn't resist it) of the Clouds album cover, reminded me that this was the only Joni album I had on vinyl which was not a gatefold cover. More annoyingly it did not include any printed lyrics. I think I acquired this copy around 1980, so it could have been different from the first release version. Does anyone know if the original cover opened out with the lyrics printed inside? Tucked inside the cover I found my own handwritten version of the lyrics last night. I recall playing and re-playing that album to scribble them all down. Apart from noticing how my handwriting has changed (deteriorated to be truthful!) I spotted a few mistakes e.g. On Tin Angel I wrote "there's a soul in his eyes" for "there's sorrow in his eyes" On Roses Blue "she'll probably sign your death" for " prophesy your death" On "Songs to Aging Children Come" I could never make out the word "rhapsodies" so there's a blank. Has anyone else been singing the wrong words for years too? It made sense to me anyway! Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:04:33 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: This is for real Well, Louis, I hate to say this, but I am just so tempted to tell you just to start *smoking* again. But you've come so far, you just can't give in now... My initial reaction to *that* post was just like yours. But then, I realized, she's entitled to her opinion, just like everyone else (even if it is, IMO, a *bit* misguided - just a tad, a wee skite.) I have to wonder why someone would post, as far as I can see, the first time, only to be SO negative. From what I've read from those who are/have been on other lists, there's a lot of cussin' and swearin' and name-calling and brawling (see- JC!) so I do wonder where she's coming from and am so tempted to suggest psychiatric help, but that seems to be my answer to anything these days (my mother would have suggested that she pray). If I see someone being that angry with a bunch of, let's face it, complete strangers, I assume either she's joking (Jerry-Lewis style?) or she's really angry with something and just taking it out on us (instead of kicking the dog). Keep NOT smoking. The worst is behind you (I think). Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:25:13 -0800 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Kakki patrick wrote: >kakki, you're one of my favorite people on the joniplanet. that i've ever >met through the internet. that i've ever met. I can't imagine anyone who has met Kakki who would disagree with that. ######################################################### Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" http://www.thelivingtradition.org/ (Website under construction!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:55:17 -0500 From: Janet Hess Subject: Re: Kakki Even many of us who haven't met Kakki in the flesh (as it were) are inclined to agree. You'll do too, Steve, my bro. ;) In fact, this whole Joniworld ain't all that bad. Hugz, Janet & Deanna Ivy the Wonderkitty, still enjoying those cybertreats from yesterday At 09:25 AM 2/22/2000 -0800, Steve Dulson wrote: >patrick wrote: > >>kakki, you're one of my favorite people on the joniplanet. that i've ever >>met through the internet. that i've ever met. > >I can't imagine anyone who has met Kakki who would disagree with that. > - ----------------- So when you see a man who's broken / Pick him up and carry him. And when you see a woman who's broken / Put her all into your arms 'Cause we don't know where we come from / We don't know what we are. Laurie Anderson, "Ramon" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:54:36 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Critics of all expression.... - ----- Original Message ----- From: > Thank god for a forum like the JMDL where it isn't (or shouldn't) be unhip > to express delight and positive reactions, whether or not the world at large > will agree. There's nothing unhip with expressing positive opinions. Joni Mitchell is a fairly robust artist who is well capable a dishing out criticism herself so I don't think she needs well intentioned fans telling other fans or music writers not to express doubt about any aspect of her work. About the NME. I regularly hate it, love it, get infuriated, etc etc. In other words it's still the best music paper in the world. Here's the first sentence from a review of Yo La Tengo's new album in this week's paper: " It's a truth rarely acknowledged by rock bands that relationships are defined by the tiny details, not the grand gestures. First glances, awkward dancing, flavours of Chapstick, sleepless silences after arguments in the middle of the night ..................." John Mulvey I don't have time to type any more but I don't ever see writing that good in older persons mags like Q, Mojo etc. Makes me feel young. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:29:43 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Steely Dan (njc) Joniphiles - Via a post on the Pat Metheny list... Becker and Fagan (Steely Dan) will be on NPR's "All Things Considered" today. Les - Steely Dan fan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:02:24 -0800 (PST) From: leslie@torchsongs.com Subject: A few words about Wally Hello: A few people have emailed me to inquire about the memorial on Saturday. The weather cooperated fully as we set sail on the Monterey Bay. Jim had the solemn privilege of pouring Wally's ashes into the San Francisco Bay. I deposited several pieces of the urn (which had broken, but that's another story) and felt the pain of a lost and cherished friend. Some people come into our lives.......leave footprints on our hearts and we are never the same. Joni's manager as well as Reprise sent floral arrangements to Jim's house. Thank you to those who have sent comforting words and thoughts. Thank you to Wally for sharing your heart with us. Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:54:13 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Joni's BSN Review in Rolling Stones Magazine The March 16th issue of Rolling Stones (with Santana on the cover), pg. 74 has a nice, recent b&w picture of Joni. They give Both Sides Now 3 stars Joni Mitchell Both Sides Now Reprise Mitchell shows off her jazz skills on an album of covers Deep down, Joni Mitchell has always been a jazz singer. Though her compositions center on life lessons and other writerly observations, what animates them are the intricate melodies - jackknifing, sharp-cornered lines that demand to-the- syllable specificity. On Both Sides Now, Mitchell applies that precision to tunes that have been famously blubbered over for decades (plus 2 of her own songs). Where Linda Ronstadt and other pop singers who have covered jazz standards tend to lean on oversize crooning (most recently and abhorrently, George Micahel), Mitchell knows that the romance vanishes when the lines are exaggerated. So she concentrates on the melodic essence of torchy warhorses like "You've Changed" and "Stormy Weather," boiling away the frills until all that's left are haunting, painfully stark declarations. Singing atop a velvety orchestra, sounding buoyant one minute and betrayed the next, Mitchell interprets "At Last" with slurry, smeared-paint gestures and gives "Don't Go To Strangers" a weary, Billie Holiday-worthy soul ache. It is Mitchell's emotional generosity, not the fabulous surroundings, that winds up mattering most: After years of spinning yarns heavily dependent on words, she's telling these stories with a repertoire of gingerly placed inflections and anguished sighs, tools she's always had but never flaunted - - Tom Moon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:01:35 -0500 From: Julie Webb Subject: Email eze The following site by Virginia Shea--- has everything you ever wanted to know about the workings of email culture but were afraid to ask: http://www.thirdage.com/features/tech/netiquette/ix0963702513.htmlby Virginia Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:07:04 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Joni's BSN Review in Rolling Stones Magazine Well at least they didn't dub it "Worst Album Title of the Year" ... keep the good presses rolling folks, there's a movie in need of a themesong that will lead to an Oscar nomination for Joni -- remember you heard it here first! How's *that* for unbridled enthusiasm ... :-) Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:23:08 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Genius of Joni and Clouds Hello Mike, I'm delighted you enjoyed the Joni Mitchell page. Part of my hope and intention when doing the section was to finally have all the Joni artwork presented together. In fact, I wanted to include more "opened-out" sleeves (DED, HOSL, TI), but it would have disrupted the format I had in the text of *grouping* certain albums together. I did try HOSL actually, but the spine was a bit mangled and the resulting scan didn't look too good. Thank you for the feedback. As I was saying to another JMDL-er the other day, it's a really good feeling when your work and effort gives others pleasure. MOA? Yes,"Guilty, m'lud"..... I've been called up on this omission already, and I will try and rectify that. I don't have the CD, so won't be able to scan the artwork, but thanks to Cassy I should be able to write a few words on the album and its significance in the overall career arc of Joni. Best Wishes, Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:33:22 -0500 From: Julie Webb Subject: "Fan Addict" or "Connoisseur" Jmdlers, "Saturday Night Live" was especially funny this past week. Ben Affleck, who surprisingly impressed me the most....was host and the talented, Fiona Apple, was the guest musician. My favorite skit was a spoof on MTV's(?) "Fan Addict" show. This sketch gave us a derelict Ben in braces playing a hilarious stereotypical zealot fan who gets to meet Anna Nicole Smith. To me, this sketch brings it all home to this discussion. I'm not referring to the jmdlers at the heart of this thread----but what I see as the fundamental underlying issue here. (Please don't see me as pontificating, because I have written some incredibly insensitive posts....) But I've gotta say what's on my mind. I think it has something to do with being **dissed** when you embrace anything in our culture.. A fan addict connotes a loser with no life. John Hinckley was a big-time fan addict. Wine aficionados are not always alcoholics. As educated contributors on this list, I don't think anyone appreciates the slightest insinuation of fanaticism----because----plain and simple----there are a lot of weirdoes into star-worship.. I have found many of the folks on the jmdl to be, for the most part, cultivated and extraordinary in their own individual ways...Perhaps many of them are more like Joni Mitchell "connoisseurs," if you will. Doesn't the word connoisseur conjure up images of someone you respect? I would feel a tad sheepish in teasing (dissing) Woody Allen for his love of Benny Goodman.... We live in a time when it's cool to "dis" and not respect. And the truth is that few people possess the charm of Letterman to get away with it. (Wasn't he brilliant last night? btw----Although I often find Letterman to be sophomoric----the way he affectionately introduced his entire surgical staff ---- was touching. They saved his life...he was grateful. The heart and humor...and humility displayed was gracious and a testament to his talent.) ---Juliezwebb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:37:34 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Steely Dan (njc) In a message dated 2/22/00 1:31:55 PM US Central Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << Via a post on the Pat Metheny list... Becker and Fagan (Steely Dan) will be on NPR's "All Things Considered" today. Les - Steely Dan fan >> Thanks for the heads up on that one, Les. And THE NEW ONE is out in a week. Whoopee, I feel like I'm in college again! Bob NP: Tracy Chapman, "Wedding Song" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:09:17 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Netiquette link (NJC) At 04:01 PM 2/22/00 -0500, Julie Z. wrote: >The following site by Virginia Shea--- has everything you ever wanted to >know about the workings of email culture but were afraid to ask: >http://www.thirdage.com/features/tech/netiquette/ix0963702513.htmlby Hi Julie, Thanks for posting this but the link has two extra letters at the end, the "b" and the "y." I got it to work by using this one instead: Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:20:35 +1000 From: john low Subject: The Role of Critics! NJC For the last few weeks I have been a quiet little wombat (mainland species, Alan) safe in my lurkdom burrow, where I’ve been reading all the posts about critics, ‘diss-cussion’ lists, BSN (which I won’t have for a month or so) and the scary possibility that this latest album may be Joni’s last. On the subject of critics and their role I would like to share some comments by a highly regarded Australian jazz critic, Jim McLeod, who presents a much loved weekly program on our national radio network. The following extracts come from the introduction to a collection of his interviews with jazz musicians that was published a few years ago. He writes: “I have been accused of being too soft in reviewing, which really means, I think, being too fair. Now that is a curious thing. I have always been wary of my role as a critic. It seems egotistical to me, to really attack and destroy another’s creative work. This is not to say that I do not have personal and strong feelings about the music, its presentation and the musicians. Nor does it mean that I do not appreciate the worth of critics. I get a lot to think about from some of them. Perhaps I tend to look for every possible angle.” “What I try to do in writing about records is to ‘review’ them rather than ‘criticise’ them. I try to give the reader some idea of what is on that record, so that they can make up their own mind whether they will want it, and how it compares to previous works by the same artist.” Jim McLeod is the type of ‘critic’ I appreciate. John (in Sydney). NP. 'Broadlahn' - a wonderful Austrian band that Marian turned me on to. __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #109 ***************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?