From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #108 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 22 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 108 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- White Horses and all (NJC) ["Michael Paz" ] Public Flogging (NJC) ["Michael Paz" ] RE: I made a BSN conversion! ["Alan Lorimer" ] NJC ["gene mock" ] Re: Critics of all expression...(NJC) [Scott Price ] Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni ["Matt] Re: Public Flogging (NJC) [Scott Price ] Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc [ZZScotty@aol.com] Re: Don Rowe (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] OK, that Daily Mail review in full [Jason Maloney ] Re: Don Rowe (NJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: OK, that Daily Mail review in full [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Most Likely, a question that has been asked over and over again (SJC) [SCJoniGuy@aol.c] Re: Public Flogging ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: I made a BSN conversion! ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: I made a BSN conversion! [luvart@snet.net] Private e-mails NJC [dsk ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:53:19 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: White Horses and all (NJC) Don wrote: "I hope this is not what's happening around here ... some of my fondest memories of being on this list include saddling up my white horse and riding out to defend "Dog Eat Dog" and "Chalkmark In A Rainstorm" from what, at the time, seemed an army of critics. " Dear Don- Are you gonna prance that tired old mule out here again? BTW are ylou coming to New Orleans for Joni Fest? No one seems to be doing anything from those 2 albums and I figure who better to cover that era than the man hisself. Poke poke, nod nod! ;-) Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:04:23 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Public Flogging (NJC) Hello List- Seeing how most of us feel the same way about the list in general and this community, why don't we just expose these people who are sending ugly email out there. I am sure if someone is being offensive to the list, they can be removed (by popular demand) and it least warned about their behaviour or publically stoned or whatever. I have been very careful not to post things that people send to me privately cause I got in trouble for doing it once (before I had nettiquette). But if this kind of crap is going on HERE, I say it's ok to copy it and expose the bastards (or bitches). Let's stop all this negative banter PLEASE! There are far more important and positive things to talk about and do. Michael (running out the door to go test drive an Alero, whatever that is) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:47:17 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: RE: I made a BSN conversion! >Question is, what do you-my fellow experts think that someone >who's been out of the Joni-loop for over twenty years and who loved >the new album would respond best to? Jerome, How about "Turbulent Indigo"? I can't think of a "mature" Joni album which would be better for introducing old Joni fans to her new music. Powerful lyrics, stunning music combing the best of the old with the new. You still get some excellent acoustic work while being introduced to the newer VG-8 based songs. On the other hand, I must admit that tracks such as "Slouching Towards Bethlehem" on NRH would be absolutely mind blowing to older Joni fans who haven't heard some of her "newer" music before Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Tasmania ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:04:23 -0800 From: "gene mock" Subject: NJC As Catman pit it, "It's better to be hated for what your than to be loved for what your not." And as Gene says,"Screw em', screw em' all." Take care and hope to hear from you soon. gene ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:02:18 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Critics of all expression...(NJC) At 03:01 PM 2/21/00 EST, David Mascall wrote: >I had a particular kind of Lit-crit world-view so much off pat >to the extent that I was quite unsure what I liked and and >didn't like, and couldn't react spontaneously to a lot >of things - except in a negative way. Put-downs are always >much easier than constructive, honest or helpful comment Very cool that you figured this out. It's like the negativity continually breeds and overpowers all else...becomes a conditioned response. I agree that it can be easier to fire away than to actually sit down and *think* something all the way through and then express those original thoughts. >Thank god for a forum like the JMDL Believe it or not David I was called to task several months ago for calling the JMDL a "forum." The point I was trying to make yesterday was that I believe constructive criticism can be a wonderful thing, but am struggling trying to figure out why there is often an undercurrent of hostility along with the criticism. Thanks for your comments; I enjoyed reading them. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:23:48 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni Well Ken, I sort of agree with you - obviously, there's two sides to this discussion that are both valid. I think that anyone who is gay (or a joni mitchell fan) should have a very open mind and therefore not generalise, but at the same time you know what they say about stereotypes... there is often a lot of truth in them. Okay, that's another generalisation, but it's important not to get bogged down in this sort of political correctness because that way we'd spend half our lives trying to justify ourselves. I actually am a bit of a fan of the divas, but in a different sense: people like Joni and Tori Amos, Patti Smith, Bjork, Pj Harvey, Sinead O'Connor - the thinking man's divas you could say, lol. If someone assumed that I was a big fan of Judy Garland just because I'm gay then I would simply say that I'm not. At the same time, I am also beginning to realise that if I was a Judy Garland fan then there would be no need to hide it just to prove a point. If I want to fit a stereotype then I will. Matthew (rock n' roll faggot) NP: Patti Smith Group - 'Easter' - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 7:59 PM Subject: Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni > Ross, > I don't think homophobia is intended by anyone making the statements about > what "their" divas are. As a gay man, I have been told to "turn in my card", > whatever that means, because I lack the proper diva-worship. I happen to > agree with Carlton that the VAST MAJORITY of gay men I've met fall into that > same category musically (Madonna, Crystal Waters, Steisand, Garland etc.) > This is not meant to be a judgement of their character, just an observation > of the sign-of-the-times and musical tastes. Why is that homophobic to you? > We all have diva-worship, I hope, as there are many, many brilliant women in > art, music, literature, politics nd thought, we just may disagree about > which divas we worship. And that is a matter of taste. I live in San > Francisco, and have encountered a few gay men here. I have not encountered > that many who appreciate Ms. Mitchell, or know who she is or, worse yet, > confuse her with Judy Collins, Joan Baez, etc. You are lucky to have met two > partners who are Joni-heads. Please don't consider it Americanphobic, but > I've sensed that Europeans are more understanding and open minded to > cultural anomalies such as Joni who transcends the opinion of current taste. > I don't lump ALL Americans into the category of Joni-nonfans (as evidenced by > my participation in this discussion community), just most of them. In this > country, taste in many things is bought and sold, and as you are a fan of > Joni's, you must be aware that this is quite a grand theme for her life and > work these days almost having replaced her ruminatons on love. (This is by > no means a criticism of Joni's work in this regard, she could probably > ruminate on the phonebook in a valid and brilliant way). Music is so > important to me that it would not serve me to be involved with someone > romantically who has no appreciation for Joni. I think that is the point for > many gay men who struggle to seek a partner and encounter men with musical > tastes tht run more toward the Madonna/Streisand/Bette/ etc thing. That is > their frustration. Calling them homophobic for this observation about the > demographics of musical taste, which threatens no one's life, freedom or > happiness, is going a little overboard. Though I feel compassion and empathy > for us all as, with any group that is readily castigated, we should be on > guard when someone's will is being forced upon us. Let's save our > phobia-calling for those issues, and enjoy this discussion of taste and > opinion about the wonder of music and the genius of Joni. > Peace and Love and, if your ex who loves Joni is available and it's okay by > you, I'd love to meet him, > Ken in SF > NP: (appropriately, and not the madonna song) BORDERLINE > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:23:28 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Public Flogging (NJC) At 03:04 PM 2/21/00 -0600, Michael Paz wrote: >why don't we just expose these people who are sending ugly >email out there. I am sure if someone is being offensive to the list, they >can be removed (by popular demand) and it least warned about their behaviour >or publically stoned or whatever. Michael, This has been tried before. There was never agreement as to exactly what was deemed "offensive." Some of the stuff I saw just blew my mind it was so horrible, but in the opinion of others, it was simply esoteric. Also, I don't think that posting private e-mail to the list is ever the right thing to do, chiefly because it's easily misinterpreted when posted out of context..."netiquette" concerns aside. So while I would like to see more options for those who have been hurt, I don't know what they might be. The unfortunate end result is that the person who felt offended often goes into lurkdom or quits the list. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:05:20 EST From: ZZScotty@aol.com Subject: Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc Patrick said: "dear kakki, i am so grieved that you've been hurt by bob's parody." Bob said: "I've felt about 3 inches tall for the past 24 hours...;~)" Dear Bob and Kakki, I'm happy that Patrick responded as he did. Bob, I never thought your parody was meant to be harmful. I thought about responding, but being somewhat new, didn't want to make matters worse. I value both of you as really positive contributors to this list. Kakki, please don't stay away. Thank, Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:53:09 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Don Rowe (NJC) In a message dated 00-02-21 17:08:44 EST, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << Dear Don- Are you gonna prance that tired old mule out here again? BTW are ylou coming to New Orleans for Joni Fest? No one seems to be doing anything from those 2 albums and I figure who better to cover that era than the man hisself. Poke poke, nod nod! ;-) >> Donnie is a chicken, Donnie is a chicken, Donnie is a chicken.......marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:15:47 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: OK, that Daily Mail review in full Yes, a little late, but I finally did it..... Always good to see such positive reactions to Joni and her work, but I'm not too sure about some of the comments in this article. I'll let you all read it first, then add my thoughts afterwards...... "A REAL NORTH AMERICAN BEAUTY - from the beginning to the end of the affair, with passion...by ADRIAN THRILLS JONI MITCHELL - BOTH SIDES NOW (Reprise) **** Long before Shania Twain, Alanis Morissette and Celine Dion, the most widely appreciated Canadian female singer was Joni Mitchell. But, while her musical influence has been acknowledged by many modern vocalists, from madonna to Tori Amos, Mitchell has kept a low profile in recent years, concentrating more on painting than her music. Mitchell's last album of new songs, 1998's Taming The Tiger, reiterated the huge gulf between the folk and jazz veteran and the pop mainstream, with lyrics that voiced her contempt for most aspects of contemporary culture. But Both Sides Now, a suite of romantic songs, is a more positive statement. The album features new versions of standards and show tunes, the same format George Michael used on last year's Songs From The Last Century. But, unlike Michael's selection of personal favourites, Mitchell's record uses North American song to trace the nuances of a love affair, from flirtation and consummation to despair and, eventually, philosophical acceptance. This concept gives Both Sides Now, to be released on February 28, an emotional edge and sense of purpose missing from most covers albums. Recorded in George Martin's London studio, it features a 71-piece symphony orchestra and a big band. But it is Mitchell's subtle, poised vocals which add a freshness to You've Changed, Stormy Weatherand a further ten classic relationship songs. Even the two tracks here from Mitchell's own extensive repertoire, 1972's A Case Of You and the 1967 title track, are revived with great elegance and style. Exploiting the cool and sophisticated tone that has always been her vocal hallmark, the singer examines the passions of an affair without relying on the sentimentality that most singers would have brought to these songs. With lavish strings and piano providing a relaxed backing, the early stages of love are the euphoric inspiration for You're My Thrill (thanks, Joni) and At Last. The latter, a signature tune for blues legend Etta James, is superbly performed, contradicting reports that Mitchell found the song a difficult one. The first hint of turmoil arrives on the brassy, jazzy Comes Love, one of four songs that were once sung by Billie Holliday. But the album's pivotal track is You've Changed, on which Mitchell, accompanied by sweeping violinsand gentle perscussion, pinpoints the moment when romance turns sour. Then the sorrow of a broken heart is explored on Answer Me, My Love, with Wayne Shorter's saxophone adding poignancy, and a melancholy Stormy Weather. The album closes philosophically. I Wish I Were In Love Again, a Rodgers and Hart classic, wittily hints at the probabbility of the cycle repeating itself, while Both Sides Now adds a reflective finale. Jam-packed with outstanding interpretations, this album - the first part of an orchestral trilogy - might not rival fellow Canadian stars Twain, Morissette or Dion in terms of sales. It does, however, reiterate the enduring talent of one of Canada's greatest performers." OK, me again :-) Well, he obviously loves the album, which is clearly a good thing. However, his verdict upon TTT and his perception of her overall strikes me as somehwat wide of the mark, even guilty of the usual same old stereotyping. Notice how many times he mentions Canada and Canadian artists. Note too, how many big names are also dropped all over those first few paragraphs. Perhaps the intention is to draw unbelievers in through association, but I don't think so many other artists' names were necessary. Strangely, despite all this name-dropping, he didn't even mention Bryan Ferry, whose recent covers album is surely the closest in spirit, and also among her peers? It tends to smack of trying to ingratiate Joni and her relevance into the hearts of the younger generation, as if that's either the point of the album or Joni's raison-d'etre. Maybe that's not so bad, but this kind of praise-by-association with hipper, younger acts must only serve to fruther annoy someone like Joni herself. All the usual suspects are wheeled out, Tori, Alanis, Madonna......I almost expected Sheryl, Suzanne and Tracy to be thrown in for good measure. Yes, Joni *has* had an impact on those artsist and goodness knows how many others, but tell us something new...or at least tell us it in an original way! I can't really fault his view of the album...firstly, because I haven't heard it, but also because he makes it sound interesting. His emphasis on the thematic nature of the record is a neat touch, and one that really makes the album sound more enticing. Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:37:36 EST From: NathanLaFraneer@aol.com Subject: Most Likely, a question that has been asked over and over again (SJC) Hello, Does anybody know if Joni's Painting With Words and Music would ever be available as an audio CD? Also, does anybody have the roster of songs that she does perform in that "intimate concert." I know she starts with "Big Yellow Taxi," and sings "Dreamland" over the closing credits.. but that's about it. Also... um..when it came to people to introduce her...why Rosanna Arquette? Was Rosanna trying to jump-start her career now that she has been overshadowed by Patricia and David? Jeepers. Ed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:56:45 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Daily Mail review The Daily Mail said: > The first hint of turmoil arrives on the brassy, jazzy Comes Love, one > of four songs that were once sung by Billie Holliday. Wow, to think that Billie Holiday is so highly regarded despite having sung only four songs. ;) - --David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:10:10 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Don Rowe (NJC) Marcel taunts: << Donnie is a chicken, Donnie is a chicken, Donnie is a chicken.... >> Hey Don, come on to the fest - hell, I'll take a part in "Dancin' Clown" if you want to do it! ;~) Bob NP: "Woodstock", Syracuse, NY 11/02/98 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:18:00 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: OK, that Daily Mail review in full In a message dated 2/21/00 8:23:33 PM US Central Standard Time, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: << It does, however, reiterate the enduring talent of one of Canada's greatest performers." >> Jason, thanks for reprinting this, and also to all of you who have sent in the reviews. I agree with you, it's a great review and that's fine, but it's SO tiresome hearing Joni always qualified as one of the greatest "female", "Canadian", whatever performers, like she's automatically on a lower rung or something. Also let me take this opportunity to say that if you haven't checked out the BSN section of the website, you should do so. Jim is really doing a super job. I especially love the section that details the many other artists who recorded the songs that Joni covers on BSN. Keep up the great work, Jim! Bob, trying to accentuate the positive! ;~) NP: "Amelia", Syracuse 98 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:23:30 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Most Likely, a question that has been asked over and over again (SJC) In a message dated 2/21/00 8:48:43 PM US Central Standard Time, NathanLaFraneer@aol.com writes: << Does anybody know if Joni's Painting With Words and Music would ever be available as an audio CD?>> Yes, maybe you just need to ask nicely! ;~) I've got it converted to a 2-CD set and will be glad to share it with you, e-mail me back privately and we can work it out if you're interested. <> Big Yellow Taxi, Just Like This Train, Night Ride Home, The Crazy Cries of Love, Harry's House, Black Crow, Amelia, Hejira, Sex Kills, The Magdalene Laundries, Moon at the Window, Facelift, Why Do Fools Fall in Love?, Trouble Man, Comes Love, Song For Sharon, Woodstock, Dreamland Bob NP: Hejira ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:28:20 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Public Flogging > > So while I would like to see more options for those who have been hurt, I > don't know what they might be. The unfortunate end result is that the > person who felt offended often goes into lurkdom or quits the list. > > Scott > > This whole business of people getting mean-spirited private email from list members has come up before & it really pisses me off royally. Whoever it is that is doing this, JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE??? Ok, yelling's over. I do want to stress to anybody who is out there lurking and afraid to post or who has posted & been burned by these ASSHOLES that those morons perpetrating this nasty, mean, childish, inane behavior are *not* representative of this discussion list! They do not speak for us! They are not what this group is all about! I have said this before & I will say it again, I strongly urge any of you who have been HARRASSED in this manner to IGNORE IT! Don't give the bastards the satisfaction of silencing you or depriving the rest of us of what you have to say. We *want* to hear from you. I've been on this list from the very beginning and although we have had one or two people get on here who obviously wanted to stir up trouble, this group is a supportive and warm group of friendly, good people. Opinionated, naturally. We've all got brains & we use them and there aren't many people on the planet more opinionated than Joni! But! We respect one another and if you have something worthwhile to say, we will respect it. We may disagree with you but we will respect it. Occasionally feathers get ruffled and feelings get hurt. Doesn't that happen in every relationship in life worth having? We work it out, we get over it and we move on. Life is too short and too full of stress as it is. Why waste any energy on bothering to respond to people who only seem to want to inflict hurt? Especially when they aren't physically in your face and you have the choice to delete the rot they're trying to fling at you and move on. Don't give those people that kind of power over you. Ignore them. They probably only want attention anyway. Don't give it to them! Mark in Seattle (off the soap box for now) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:59:23 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: I made a BSN conversion! MY first thought is Night Ride Home. > Maybe Hits? > > Jerome > I think Night Ride Home is an excellent suggestion. It has a nice mix of up & down songs and some really pretty melodies. Turbulent Indigo, though brilliant, might be a bit too much on the dark side. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:58:33 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc In a message dated 2/21/2000 3:56:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickl@bway.net writes: << As for my shuttling visiting >JMDL'ers around the town to the haunts, that's normal L.A. hospitality, but >in retrospect has probably been a very naive and foolish approach >on my part >that will most definitely discontinue. > >> Hey Kakki, I need to tell you and everyone else here on the list but my favorite time of all on my vacation was hanging out with you and talking with you you. You only met me once and yet you were so kind to take me around and show me the sights of LA. I really enjoyed myself at Le Deux and never would have found it if it wasn't for you. When we went to Laurel Canyon and drove around and talked I realized how wonderful of a person you are and I am so greatful tat I gmet you and we became friends. YOU are a great asset to this list. So thank you for being such a great person. Catgirl ps Kakki had been up without much sleep and still took it upon herself to take me out and show me a wonderful evening....she is right up there with Joni!! :o) pps Kakki your present will be in Thursday mail!!...... :o) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:03:50 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: I made a BSN conversion! I nominate Jerome to receive his "They Liked Joni in the 70's, Fell Out of the Loop but I Bought Them Back" JMDL badge. Keep reeling 'em in, Jerome! Heather At 01:56 PM 2/21/00 -0700, Bounced Message wrote: >From: "Jerome Gonzales" >Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:44:33 -0800 > >OK, so my boss and I usually discuss music here at work. I got him into >Aimee Mann and he's gotten me into all different types of world >music-the latest was Hawaiian slack guitar and Maori music. Also some >Paolo Conte. But I knew he didn't like Joni. We've discussed Dylan on >several occasions and my concert experience came up. He admitted to >"never being much of a fan of hers." Some Bela Bartok comparison came >up that I never really understood. Anyhow his wife loves Joni but like >many fell out of the loop in the late '70s. So sneaky me decided to >play Both Sides Now in the office. A few times went by without a >comment, and then last week he finally noticed. "Ooh. Who's singing >this?" When I replied Joni, he said, "Joni MItchell. God her voice has >changed. I like it much better." I almost wet my pants. So I copied >it for him (don't worry, he promises to buy the regular edition March >21) and he took it home to his wife. She loved it but couldn't believe >it was Joni. So now she asked me for a list of what Joni's done >recently. Question is, what do you-my fellow experts think that someone >who's been out of the Joni-loop for over twenty years and who loved the >new album would repsond best to? MY first thought is Night Ride Home. >Maybe Hits? > >Jerome > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:41:34 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Private e-mails NJC luvart@snet.net wrote: > Even when I first joined the JMDL and expressed how Joni's music had moved > with me through my life experiences, I received nasty private e-mails... This, plus Beverly's story of an experience 3 years ago, makes me wonder if people are actually receiving nasty e-mails *now* or if it's just the memory of such past experiences that makes some people wary about posting. When I joined the list a couple of years ago there was a lot of talk about nasty private e-mails, which made posting rather scary, but other than during the heated political discussions last Spring, I never received any, and didn't hear about anyone else receiving any so I thought it wasn't happening anymore. The only disturbing private e-mails I've ever received were toward the end of the discussion that started last April with people's reactions to the shootings at Columbine and eventually became a sometimes heated argument about the First Amendment and gun control (all completely NJC). Shortly after that political discussion wound down, it came to light that some people were being abused, insulted, or made uncomfortable during that discussion by unsolicited private e-mails from people on the list. There was an intense discussion (in early July I think) about what to do about this. The result of it was Les writing up a list of the various steps a person can take if this is happening to her or him. It's part of the information you can read when you first subscribe to the list and, basically, the steps are: ask the person to stop, or use filters so you don't receive that person's e-mails, and send the e-mails to Les if it keeps happening (not that he's a policeman here, but it helps I think if it's not kept just between you and whoever is insulting you). It's *never* a good idea to post a private message to the list. My solution was to upgrade my browser so that I could filter out whoever I didn't want to hear from privately (didn't even know such filters existed until list members told me). Anyway I'm writing this whole history, which probably many of you know already, to ease the fear some people might have when they hear about the possibility of receiving nasty e-mails. Other than during that time, I've always received very positive, funny, appreciative or I-can-relate type private posts, which always impresses me since I know how easy it is to read something that I like and not take the time to write a note about it. And it makes it *feel* like these words are going to actual people instead of to some unknowable void. So the short story (maybe I should have put this at the top :-) is: don't let hearing about possible negative posts keep you from expressing yourself because I think such posts are rare and, if it does happen, there are ways to deal with it, and, if you don't go ahead and post what you're thinking, you won't ever get any of those "goody" posts either. Debra Shea ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #108 ***************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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