From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #107 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, February 21 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 107 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc ["patrick leader" ] Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Like a beacon [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: Cryptic Music Artist Quiz - NJC [catman ] Re: Cryptic Music Artist Quiz - NJC [catman ] An observation ... BSNLE vs. Promo??? [Don Rowe ] BSN-a good copy! [Kevin_E_Licht@email.whirlpool.com] Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc ["Mark T. Domyancich" <] Re: What's a good Carly Simon to buy? NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) ["Catherine McKay" ] john kelly [Bounced Message ] Re: Critics of all expression NJC [Don Rowe ] Harry Potter(NJC) [waytoblu@mindspring.com] Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni [KJHSF] Critics of all expression...(NJC).....I suppose [Dmascall@aol.com] Re: Harry Potter(NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Critics of all expression...(NJC).....I suppose ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Critics of all expression NJC and Perceptions ["Beverly" ] Re: Critics of all expression...(NJC).....I suppose [Jason Maloney Subject: RE: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc dear kakki, i am so grieved that you've been hurt by bob's parody. i think the stalker issue is sensitive for all of us. we've all wondered if we're too obsessed with joni. we wonder, if we had the chance to meet her 'would she be freaked?'. the odd and wonderful thing is that through this list we've come to know joni's interactions with her internet fans, and it has become clear that she is not freaked out or worried about us. she values us. and, for me, it was specifically your report on joni's reactions to the cookbook, at the LACE opening that made me comfortable with the whole idea of meeting joni. you handled yourself so beautifully, and joni was so warm without any artificial encouragement... what was so funny about bob's take on the interview (and it WAS funny) was that we could read it and giggle 'that's not the real kakki', and 'that's not the real joni'. and part of the reason we knew better is due to you, and your generosity and intelligence in sharing your experiences at the LACE opening, and so many other joni-related events you've shared with us. i suspect that this woman, joni mitchell, will make it quite clear to us when she's worried about internet stalkers. she's not, right now, because her meetings with you, bob, phyllis, mary p. etc. have been so positive. and that has been communicated, often through you, to us, her internet community. joni's huge-hearted embrace of wally, last november, was also incredibly moving. joni gave so much there... another reason why bob's dialog was so obviously loving fiction. i was a little upset when you wrote: >as someone who was victimized >by a stalker for four years, i don't know how in the hell bob or anyone else could've guessed this. i suffered through a 3 1/2 year phone harassment. my best friend had a miserable 4-year legal contretemps with an ex-boyfriend. i don't think we can expect our internet companions to be aware of these kinds of biographical details... then i was so sad when you wrote: As for my shuttling visiting >JMDL'ers around the town to the haunts, that's normal L.A. hospitality, but >in retrospect has probably been a very naive and foolish approach >on my part >that will most definitely discontinue. > my sister has recently been invited into a doctoral program in an la-area campus. my first thought was kakki. i think you would love my sister, and i trust you to introduce her to la. please don't pull back from 'normal' L.A. hospitality (and let me say here that kakki's hospitality is far greater and more wonderful than just 'normal'). kakki, you're one of my favorite people on the joniplanet. that i've ever met through the internet. that i've ever met. please don't pull away from us, and please don't feel hurt by something that shouldn't have hurt. please? ok? patrick np - me'shell - bitter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:01:56 +0800 (JST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: Nigel Kennedy (NJC) I like Nigel Kennedy. The first THE FOUR SEASONS album I was bought was his version of the Vivaldi classic. I understand he has been receiving flaks from critics in Britain as he used to be a punk rocker (?). As a violinist, I like his violin playing a lot though his foray in jazz makes one hanker for Grappelli, his insouciance wins one over in the end. Joseph (eagerly awaiting the release of his latest CD in Manila) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 06:46:14 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc In a message dated 2/21/00 2:55:03 AM US Central Standard Time, patrickl@bway.net writes: << kakki, you're one of my favorite people on the joniplanet. that i've ever met through the internet. that i've ever met. please don't pull away from us, and please don't feel hurt by something that shouldn't have hurt. please? ok? >> Patrick, this was so eloquent and exactly what I have wanted to say, but realized how patronizing and condescending it would sound coming from me...of course, it was a little hard for me to read since I've felt about 3 inches tall for the past 24 hours...;~) Bob NP: They Might Be giants, "Ana "Ng" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:47:05 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Like a beacon Like the best beacons, Susan's list enables you to move forward while at the same time acting as a caution. Thanks DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:10:58 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Cryptic Music Artist Quiz - NJC Helen M. Adcock wrote: > Sorry for using up bandwidth on this, but I really need some help! A friend > sent me a list of cryptic clues to bands or artists, and we're stuck on the > last three. I'm sure one of the music sluts will be able to decipher them! > > This is how it works: > "Nun toboggan" = Sister Sledge > "Elizabeth, Victoria, Mary" = Queen > "Young men selling mice" = Pet Shop Boys > > The ones we're stuck on are: > > "Preserve reflect on famous river" Credence Clearwater Revival? > "Sent for porridge" The Police?(porridge is a term for prison sentence) > "Keep the horses in footwear" > > Any help would be gratefully received, and if anyone wants to try their hand > at the full list (about 80) let me know (not the list) and I'll send you a > copy! All the music sluts out there will definitely want to try this! > > Thanks > > Hell > > P.S. The quiz appears to be of English/British origin, if that helps! > _______________________________ > "I don't believe in livin' in the middle with > available extremes" - Carole King > > hell@ihug.co.nz - -- To change the world-change your self "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:27:00 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Critics of all expression perhaps I have missed some posts or something. I have read what people are writing now and I get the imprssion that posts wondering whether or not Joni can pull off a standards album or posts about dislikeing TTT are considered mean and hpercritical. It also seems that Joni's truly sensitive fans do not write to the list. Is the new rule that we can only write about about those Joni works we love? That we cannot express an opinion about her painting that is negative? The only meaness i noticed was from people who disagreed with those who wrote anything negative about Joni or her work. I believe it is possible to disagree without people getting all humpy about it. In the 2 1/2 years I habve been here, I have noticed a change of late, not for the better. It has become not such a safe place to state an opinion.( iam not talking about people coming down on others for racist,sexist, homophobic, remarks-tho that needn't be done horribly). I know when i dared to suggest that maybe Joni wouldn't be able to pull off the singing of the standards, I was written to and among other things, was told 'how dare I, as poor wally had just died'. Personally, I found that highly offensive and sick. Still this list is by and large a wonderful list, peopled by good and caring and sensitive people who sometimes get away with themselves. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:29:21 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Cryptic Music Artist Quiz - NJC > > > The ones we're stuck on are: > > "Preserve reflect on famous river" > "Sent for porridge" > "Keep the horses in footwear" The smiths? > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:18:03 -0000 From: "Ross" Subject: Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni 'Their prominent divas'??? Please! I find this really homophobic. Like ALL gay men merge into one? They only have a collective opinion? 'They don't usually like jazz, rock or folk'?! Well I do! And I know many others too, heck, one of the most popular gay clubs in London plays back to back rock music. Who the hell are Deborah Cox and Crystal Waters?! Please please don't sterotype, it is a very dangerous thing to do. My current boyfriend is a huge Joni fan and my ex is aslo a huge Joni fan so hopefully this will tell you that your sexuality has absoultely nothing to do with your taste in music. God, what century are we in?! Ross GAY Joni Fan (*Last* time the word 'gay' will be inserted) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:14:53 EST From: NathanLaFraneer@aol.com Subject: Joni Criticism (SJC) On the subject of criticizing Joni ... why must we mince words? Unless she is God(dess) she has been bound to make a few missteps along the way. I mean, I am a huge fan of Alfred Hitchcock films, and really love him, but I know that even he made some real stinkers along the way (Marnie, Family Plot...bleccch) And I like reading Jane Austen, but really...she was over extending herself when she wrote Mansfield park (too many characters, too little humor). Is Joni to stand over and abover everybody else just because she's... well, Joni? Nah. Of course, I am not saying make it a field day on her (Lord knows, enough Joni detractors do that ... especially my friends who roll their eyes whenever I mention her name,...yet have they even TRIED to listen to her? NO! But I digress...) As for a lot of the criticism of her new album, I have yet to hear it. However, I have been steeling myself for it. I am also thinking how since 1982 all her albums have been really spaced apart, and that for this one to follow TTT so closely is a pretty cool thing. Therefore, I am going to consider this new album a "gift." I mean, we COULD have waited another three or four years for it ... but only 1.5 years after her last effort, at this late stage of her career? We are lucky. :) Anyhow, have a good day all Ed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:07:22 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Aging Pianists Jim writes: "I think the only thing to degrade Joni's keyboard playing would be those damned paintbrushes in her hands! :)" Well, I guess someone's just gonna have to rip them from her bleeding hands! (Anyway, she doesn't need any MORE paint on her piano!) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:13:09 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: An observation ... BSNLE vs. Promo??? While many of us have been gnashing our teeth and spitting "venom" at Reprise over defective BSNLE ... has it struck anyone that not a single review (many have been posted)has mentioned a CD that skips? Now this is *pure* speculation on my part -- but I imagine that Reprise sent out promo copies for review -- and they seem fine. So my question to Reprise, to use the ad lingo catch-phrase of the day is: WHAA-SUUUUUUP? Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:02:01 -0500 From: Kevin_E_Licht@email.whirlpool.com Subject: BSN-a good copy! Hi all, Haven't posted in a very long time but wanted to touch base that my version of Both Sides Now arrived from CD Now with the disc still firmly attached to the spindle and with no scratches. Not sure why or how I got lucky. My wife and I had to wait a full week to find a suitable time to listen to the new disc but it was worth the wait. Yesterday was beautifully sunny and warm, so were able to take the Passat out for a nice leisurely drive with the sunroof open. The CD played flawlessly, and we both loved it. Definitely different, but very nice. This turned out to be the perfect Valentine for Kimberly. I feel very bad for all the folks with funky discs that have to go through the hassle of returning. Not fun. Kevin Come back soon, Kakki. Thanks Wally ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:51:13 -0600 From: "Mark T. Domyancich" Subject: Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) njc Please only reply to the relevant portion you're replying to. It helps those who are on digest. At 9:09 PM -0800 2/20/00, Phyliss Ward wrote: >Gosh Mark! I was reading your post and trying to think what I could add >on this topic and I've decided you've said it all too perfectly already. >(this is another way of saying "me too") - -- Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:59:59 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: What's a good Carly Simon to buy? NJC "He Likes to Roll" is probably my favorite on that disc "Another Passenger" is the only Carly Simon album I have and "He likes to roll" is my all-time favourite - beautiful guitar work by Laurindo Almeida. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:02:24 EST From: NathanLaFraneer@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni (SJC) - --part1_15.15e8f3f.25e2c9a0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies if you already received this email ... it never seemed to show up to my mailbox, so I am wondering if anybody else received it the first time I sent it out... Again, sorry for the duplicates In a message dated 02/21/2000 10:04:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, NathanLaFraneer writes: << Subj: Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni (SJC) Date: 02/21/2000 10:04:47 AM Eastern Standard Time From: NathanLaFraneer To: joni@smoe.org, ross@rossty.co.uk In a message dated 02/21/2000 9:27:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, ross@rossty.co.uk writes: << Gay men don't usually like jazz, rock or folk and don't get Joni. >> Dammit! I *knew* I wasn't a real gay man, no wonder I can't get a date! Now I'll have to throw out all of my Nirvana CD's and start over. No, I think that was a bit of a generalization as well. Yes, there is also truth to it (I do happen to own every Madonna CD as well) but really... I have actually been conducting a very unscientific search as of late. I am on AOL and I get very very bored, so I often conduct member searches looking for guys to chat with who have listed Joni in their profile. Now, this may be of interest ... the only search terms I use are "Joni" "Mitchell" and "male" I do NOT include the terms "gay" or "homosexual." Over half the men who turn up (maybe even 3/4) are indeed gay. In fact, wasn't Wally Breese himself not of the heterosexual persuasion? (I am not speculating here, nor slamming him) So, yes, gay men do like their diva's (grumble grumble), but as for us not "getting" Joni ... well, no, I do think we get it... It is funny this was brought up as I was calling Joni the "unknown diva" this past week. (Her behavior and comments are certainly very diva-like at times) I think if gay guys who liked her all got together, we'd see how many of us there were... And truthfully, I'd rather worship Joni, who is arrogant, self assured and a real pisser than Judy Garland who has become known for her misery. :( Ed "Does this make me look fat?" Aycock >> - --part1_15.15e8f3f.25e2c9a0_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: NathanLaFraneer@aol.com From: NathanLaFraneer@aol.com Full-name: NathanLaFraneer Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:04:47 EST Subject: Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni (SJC) To: joni@smoe.org, ross@rossty.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 45 In a message dated 02/21/2000 9:27:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, ross@rossty.co.uk writes: << Gay men don't usually like jazz, rock or folk and don't get Joni. >> Dammit! I *knew* I wasn't a real gay man, no wonder I can't get a date! Now I'll have to throw out all of my Nirvana CD's and start over. No, I think that was a bit of a generalization as well. Yes, there is also truth to it (I do happen to own every Madonna CD as well) but really... I have actually been conducting a very unscientific search as of late. I am on AOL and I get very very bored, so I often conduct member searches looking for guys to chat with who have listed Joni in their profile. Now, this may be of interest ... the only search terms I use are "Joni" "Mitchell" and "male" I do NOT include the terms "gay" or "homosexual." Over half the men who turn up (maybe even 3/4) are indeed gay. In fact, wasn't Wally Breese himself gay? (I am not speculating here) So, yes, gay men do like their diva's (grumble grumble), but as for us not "getting" Joni ... well, no, I do think we get it... It is funny this was brought up as I was calling Joni the "unknown diva" this past week. (Her behavior and comments are certainly very diva-like at times) I think if gay guys who liked her all got together, we'd see how many of us there were... And truthfully, I'd rather worship Joni, who is arrogant, self assured and a real pisser than Judy Garland who has become known for her misery. :( Ed "Does this make me look fat?" Aycock - --part1_15.15e8f3f.25e2c9a0_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:04:28 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: What's a good Carly Simon to buy? Mark quotes Carly: "'Cause you're over thirty and underweight Though you call yourself petite" This song doesn't sound like Joni at all but the thing that really clinched it for me was that line - I can't imagine Joni "calling herself petite". Does anyone know how tall Joni is? She looks tall to me, but then, people think I'm tall and I'm only 5ft3in. I'd put Joni at at least 5'8", hardly what you'd call petite and although Joni isn't overweight, I'd hardly call her underweight either - she looks "normal" to me (whatever that means.) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:11:52 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: schwa NJC Patrick says: actually, my first choice for an email name was umlautschwa, but i had a limit of 8 letters... dämn!! patrick, fascinated by the concept of umlaut bands, especially an early nineties east village band called ümläüt övërlöäd. every vowel was umlauted! just pronouncing the name was fun enough; thank god i never had to hear them. Oh, brother, Patrick - you'd have fit in very well in my house when I was a kid! We would sit around the dinner table throwing scraps of what we all hated eating to our omniverous dachshund, Ziggy, arguing about whatever-you-want. We would actually argue about stuff like "umlauts" mostly just because, like you, we thought the name of the thing was just so darn funny. My mother would go nuts, because she never understood what the hell we were talking about. Every now and then, she'd throw her 2-cents in and call out "Does that have an umluff on it?" Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:19:06 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) Kakki wrote to Lisa (and the list): "Regarding my sometimes unabashed enthusiasm for Joni, I have to say that I am not the only one around here although it may look that way sometimes. I constantly receive private email from regular and irregular posters and lurkers who often feel the same positive reaction to various aspects of her music and painting that I do, but who are reticent to express the same on the list. The critics certainly have their place here and their posts are often educational and provide new angles and insights. I appreciate and learn from them. But there is something upside-down when a significant portion of the list feels reticent to express purely positive opinions about various aspects of Joni's work. I know we pride ourselves here as being collectively brilliant and a cut above the typical discussion group, but I can't buy an attitude that makes people feel foolish because they happen to like something that others more boldly vocal have dismissed. So I hope that some of those hiding their light under a bushel will come forward and feel comfortable to express their opinions more often." I second that emotion. It saddens me to think that people might be afraid to express their opinion - especially when it's a positive one. No one's opinion is any better than anyone else's - it's just an opinion. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:32:44 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Fwd: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni (SJC) I'm not really gay either. Can't stand Garland, Striesand, Doris Day, Ethel Merman, Petula Clark, Dusty or Cilla Black. the closest i got was rteally liking Donna back in the 70's. Apart from Joni and Carly and other female singers i also like Pink Floyd, Bowie, Oldfield, Tangerine Dream. bw colin ps don't tell John I'm not really gay....after almost 19 years, he couldn't take the shock. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:49:16 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: Critics of all expression NJC At 09:33 PM 2/20/00 -0800, Scott Price wrote: >Good question. I think the main reason more people don't post is that >they're afraid of making a "mistake," of unknowingly committing a faux pas >and offending others, or appearing less-well-informed than others. Also, no >one wants to be called a sycophant or a brown-noser. Glad you bought this up. This is a major reason why I don't post too much. Even when I first joined the JMDL and expressed how Joni's music had moved with me through my life experiences, I received nasty private e-mails saying that people don't want to hear this and it was boring and on and on and on. Well .... I'm glad I wasn't too sensitive ;-) because I've met some lovely people who share the same enthusiasm for Joni's music as I do. Heather (Who will always remember the kindest words from Mark D.) You see, Joni was >right when she said many of her "fans" are sensitive...these are exactly >the people who are "reticent" to post, for a variety of reasons, while by >their nature the critics are more vocal, more confrontational, more quick >to bring out barbs. A Catch-22 of sorts and I don't know if it'll ever change. > >Scott, originally put "NJC" in the subject line but decided "to hell with it!" > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:20:07 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: My Interview With Joni (a Bigger Fiction) Kakki recently lamented ... > I > can't buy an attitude that makes people feel foolish > because they happen to > like something that others more boldly vocal have > dismissed. I hope this is not what's happening around here ... some of my fondest memories of being on this list include saddling up my white horse and riding out to defend "Dog Eat Dog" and "Chalkmark In A Rainstorm" from what, at the time, seemed an army of critics. It's been my experience since that time, that an equal number of folks have joined the cause. And that, for me, is what this list is all about. Let's hope it stays that way. And while I'm on the subject, I'll paraphrase John Irving and pray: Dear Lord, please send Kakki back to us -- I shall not stop asking you. Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:23:34 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Critics of all expression NJC Heather said: "This is a major reason why I don't post too much. Even when I first joined the JMDL and expressed how Joni's music had moved with me through my life experiences, I received nasty private e-mails saying that people don't want to hear this and it was boring and on and on and on. Well .... I'm glad I wasn't too sensitive ;-) because I've met some lovely people who share the same enthusiasm for Joni's music as I do." Wow! call me naive, but I am *shocked*. Really. That people would send you *private* e-mails telling you what you had to say was boring? First of all, if anyone has anything like that to say, maybe they should be brave enough to stand up and say it in front of the whole class instead of sniping at one individual(?) Good grief, to me, the only reason I can see for posting privately to someone else is if that person said something struck me in a really personal (and positive?) way and I felt it was getting too NJC to submit to the group as a whole, not to make personal attacks on someone's point of view. If someone doesn't appreciate what you have to say, they can always delete the message, for heaven's sake. From time to time, I've seen things here that I don't particularly agree with, but that's just my opinion, no better or worse than anyone else's. I can take it or leave it, react to it, or not. I hope no one feels they can't say something for fear that someone else who is *louder* might shout them down. That's actually one of the reasons I DO like this kind of forum (apart from the fact that we're all admirers of Joni, which makes us pretty unique, I guess!) I'm one of those people who will generally totally shut up in a situation where a lot of people are gabbing because I can't take the noise and I don't like having to shout to be heard. I have been known to leave a place for that reason, not that I want to be rude, but I just have a hard time dealing with a lot of shouting and noisiness. In a situation like this, you can say what you have to say, when you want to say it - no fear of being shut out by someone who is louder. It is for that precise reason that I just don't *get* people who think it's OK for them to make nasty comments about what another person has said - I mean, if you don't like some of the language because it's too crude or whatever, or if you disagree with something they've said or want to clarify a point where you feel they've made a mistake (be it grammar, Joni-facts, translations from the Greek or what have you), that's one thing - but personal comments about how what a person has said is "boring"? That's not fair. Peace, brothers and sisters... (Heather, you are NOT boring.) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:36:21 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: john kelly Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:31:42 -0500 From: Barbara Lucey Hello, Joni subscribers. Last summer totally by chance I caught John Kelly's "Paved Paradise" Joni-tribute show at the Jungle in Provincetown. As any of you know who have seen him, he's extraodinary. Every spring, I get togethr with 3 high school girl frends for a weekend away from the usualy responsibilities -- we live in 4 different east coast cities. We are all forever Joni fans. This year I was hoping to track down where John might be performing so I can share the experience with them. So far, no luck in tracking down his schedule or his agent to ask. So I'm asking you! If anyone has a link, please email me at blucey@mediaone.net. Thank you! (Of course, if Joni is performing anywhere that you know of, even better.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:51:12 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Critics of all expression NJC Dear Heather, It honestly grieves me to have heard this. How callous and petty ... you have my personal assurance that while you are undoubtedly many things -- boring isn't one of them! :-) Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:05:07 -0500 From: waytoblu@mindspring.com Subject: Harry Potter(NJC) Has anyone else read the Harry Potter books by J.K. Rowling? I read them all this week(two of them this weekend) and thought they were the best thing I had read in a long time. I remember reading all the Piers Anthony Xanth books in highschool. I used to be hooked on Fantasy novels. I'd really gotten away from that genre but Rowling is an amazing storyteller. From what I understand, she was a single mother, struggling, writing her stories down in cafes... Victor http://www.mindspring.com/~waytoblu/Tangled.htm NP: HOSL(my favorite album as of late) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:59:31 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni Ross, I don't think homophobia is intended by anyone making the statements about what "their" divas are. As a gay man, I have been told to "turn in my card", whatever that means, because I lack the proper diva-worship. I happen to agree with Carlton that the VAST MAJORITY of gay men I've met fall into that same category musically (Madonna, Crystal Waters, Steisand, Garland etc.) This is not meant to be a judgement of their character, just an observation of the sign-of-the-times and musical tastes. Why is that homophobic to you? We all have diva-worship, I hope, as there are many, many brilliant women in art, music, literature, politics nd thought, we just may disagree about which divas we worship. And that is a matter of taste. I live in San Francisco, and have encountered a few gay men here. I have not encountered that many who appreciate Ms. Mitchell, or know who she is or, worse yet, confuse her with Judy Collins, Joan Baez, etc. You are lucky to have met two partners who are Joni-heads. Please don't consider it Americanphobic, but I've sensed that Europeans are more understanding and open minded to cultural anomalies such as Joni who transcends the opinion of current taste. I don't lump ALL Americans into the category of Joni-nonfans (as evidenced by my participation in this discussion community), just most of them. In this country, taste in many things is bought and sold, and as you are a fan of Joni's, you must be aware that this is quite a grand theme for her life and work these days almost having replaced her ruminatons on love. (This is by no means a criticism of Joni's work in this regard, she could probably ruminate on the phonebook in a valid and brilliant way). Music is so important to me that it would not serve me to be involved with someone romantically who has no appreciation for Joni. I think that is the point for many gay men who struggle to seek a partner and encounter men with musical tastes tht run more toward the Madonna/Streisand/Bette/ etc thing. That is their frustration. Calling them homophobic for this observation about the demographics of musical taste, which threatens no one's life, freedom or happiness, is going a little overboard. Though I feel compassion and empathy for us all as, with any group that is readily castigated, we should be on guard when someone's will is being forced upon us. Let's save our phobia-calling for those issues, and enjoy this discussion of taste and opinion about the wonder of music and the genius of Joni. Peace and Love and, if your ex who loves Joni is available and it's okay by you, I'd love to meet him, Ken in SF NP: (appropriately, and not the madonna song) BORDERLINE ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:01:30 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: Critics of all expression...(NJC).....I suppose I've just read some contributions from Mark in Seattle and Scott Price on the thorny topic of criticism. I've personally spent many years trying to get away from a point I reached in my late teens and early twenties. At this time I had a particular kind of Lit-crit world-view so much off pat to the extent that I was quite unsure what I liked and and didn't like, and couldn't react spontaneously to a lot of things - except in a negative way. Put-downs are always much easier than constructive, honest or helpful comment - or even an "I don't know". In a perverse way, I think the sixties yen for self-expression at all times has maybe got something to do with the prevalence of negative comment in relatively modern music criticism, particularly in the UK. As far as music criticism goes, I was brought up on the NME (New Musical Express) in the 1970's, which was for a while a platform for a very I'm ever-so-clever lit-crit attitude to music,though there were some notable exceptions (Ian Mcdonald who later wrote the glorious Beatles book "Revolution in the head" was one of the writers at that time). The writers had an absolute ball showing how clever and literate or expressive they were, often at the expense of the artists who were the butt of their prejudices. The eagerness of the writers to put their own idiosyncratic stamp on everything they wrote about got in the way of the music, and it's stayed there to some extent ever since. Thank god for a forum like the JMDL where it isn't (or shouldn't) be unhip to express delight and positive reactions, whether or not the world at large will agree. David Mascall (perhaps to be continued) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:10:31 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Harry Potter(NJC) Victor asks: "Has anyone else read the Harry Potter books by J.K. Rowling? I read them all this week(two of them this weekend) and thought they were the best thing I had read in a long time." I bought the first one for my kids and started reading it to them but... they have the attention spans of fleas and seem to have lost interest - I will try again once I get their attention. I always loved that kind of stuff as a kid and what's good enough for mum... I've been reading "Silverwing" and now "Sunwing" to my daughter. They're about bats, by Kenneth Oppel (sp?) and kids here are crazy about them - apparently they may be doing an animated film of the story. (My daughter is dyslexic so she absorbs things better if someone reads to her, rather than forcing her to read, but she loves these books.) They've been compared to "Watership Down" and that sort of thing - about animals who can talk (to one another, not to humans), but based very largely on how bats really behave (as if most of us would know!) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:19:18 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Critics of all expression...(NJC).....I suppose David wrote: "I've personally spent many years trying to get away from a point I reached in my late teens and early twenties. At this time I had a particular kind of Lit-crit world-view so much off pat to the extent that I was quite unsure what I liked and and didn't like, and couldn't react spontaneously to a lot of things - except in a negative way. Put-downs are always much easier than constructive, honest or helpful comment - or even an "I don't know"." Excellent point. Today it's considered hip to be cynical and it's so easy to fall into that routine of putting everything down. Too often at work, I hear people making sick jokes about the latest celebrity who has died, or been caught in some silly act involving either sex or shoplifting. It seems many of us wouldn't be caught dead actually admitting we *like* something. I know I've often been guilty of that myself and I've been considering that whole issue a great deal lately and I keep coming back to what me mum used to say, "If you can't say something good, don't say anything at all". Not that I mean to be that nicey-nice about it, but that's what it comes down to sometimes. Catherine (in Toronto, vowing to be *good* from now on...) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:28:18 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Get BSN for free!!!! I'll probably get clobbered by not labeling this NJC, but I thought everyone might be interested in this offer. Oh, no, Laura's freebie fever has rubbed off on me! Oldsmobile is offering a $50 CdNow Gift Certificate just for test driving an Alero by 4/29/00. Go to: www.alero.com and check it out! With apologies if I've upset any Joni-onlyers. Hugs, Ashara www.photon.net/lightnet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:50:07 -0700 From: Catherine Turley Subject: Re: Harry Potter(NJC) Victor! Yes!! I read all three Harry Potter books in a three day period last fall and can't rave on about them enough. I don't especially care for fantasy fiction, but these books are so entertaining, so clever, so vivid, so emotionally true, so deeply moral. I've been giving out paperback copies of the first book like crazy, and my hardback set has been on perpetual loan since the neighbor kids found out that I'd let them borrow them. Kids love Harry Potter, but every adult I've hooked up with them loves them as much. Over Christmas I was struggling with what sort of gift I could get for for a chronically depressed in-law, and my mom, in all seriousness, suggested that I buy them the Harry Potter books. I read somewhere recently that Jo Rowling in now the third richest women in Britain, behind the Queen and somebody else, and it appears that she's using her vast Harry Potter wealth to work with kids, promote literacy, etc. She rocks! Sorry to gush in such an NJC sort of way, but these books are worth gushing over, I think. . . Catherine T. in AZ waytoblu@mindspring.com wrote: > Has anyone else read the Harry Potter books by J.K. Rowling? I read them > all this week(two of them this weekend) and thought they were the best thing > I had read in a long time. I remember reading all the Piers Anthony Xanth > books in highschool. I used to be hooked on Fantasy novels. I'd really > gotten away from that genre but Rowling is an amazing storyteller. From > what I understand, she was a single mother, struggling, writing her stories > down in cafes.... > > Victor > http://www.mindspring.com/~waytoblu/Tangled.htm > > NP: HOSL(my favorite album as of late) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:54:47 -0500 From: "Beverly" Subject: Re: Critics of all expression NJC and Perceptions >Heather wrote: >"This is a major reason why I don't post too much. > Even when I first joined the JMDL and expressed how Joni's music had moved >with me through my life experiences, I received nasty private e-mails >saying that people don't want to hear this and it was boring and on and on >and on. Catherine responded: >Wow! call me naive, but I am *shocked*. Really. That people would send you >*private* e-mails telling you what you had to say was boring? First of all, >if anyone has anything like that to say, maybe they should be brave enough >to stand up and say it in front of the whole class... You would be amazed at some of the stuff that folks will send you privately. Things that they would NEVER have the nerve to “say in front of the class.” Three years ago when I first started posting to the list, my daughter was still living at home (she’s now off at college.) Many of my early posts to the list involved my relationship with my daughter and her growing love for Joni’s music (i.e. finding my “Hits” and “Misses” jewel boxes empty when I went to listen to them, and while, at first being angry that she took them without asking, I was secretly thrilled that DID take them.) ANYWAY, my very first post to the list related a story about how my daughter and her friends chose to sing and play Joni’s “Not to Blame”at a candlelight vigil which was held for victims of spouse abuse. I was so delighted - just brimming with pride as I recounted the evening in a post to the list. Incredulously, I received a private email from a list member in which I *perceived* him to be making fun of my post. It was very sarcastic in tone, and appeared to turn my post around, making it sound as if I had witnessed a candlelight vigil for the abusers, not the victims. There was more. I don’t recall it verbatim, but it really angered me. At the time, being new to Internet discussion lists, and very naive, my response was quite acrimonious and matching in sarcasm. I now know that I should have either ignored the private e- mail, or responded in a light-hearted “oh you must just be kidding with me” manner. It later occurred to me that *my* response, if shared with others without benefit of reading what I was responding to, could be *perceived* in an unfavorable light. This *is* what happened. It was not a very happy beginning. However, I did stay for a while and had a lot of fun. I’m glad I did. I met some wonderful people, and my life it better for having joined. Bev ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:56:41 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: I made a BSN conversion! From: "Jerome Gonzales" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:44:33 -0800 OK, so my boss and I usually discuss music here at work. I got him into Aimee Mann and he's gotten me into all different types of world music-the latest was Hawaiian slack guitar and Maori music. Also some Paolo Conte. But I knew he didn't like Joni. We've discussed Dylan on several occasions and my concert experience came up. He admitted to "never being much of a fan of hers." Some Bela Bartok comparison came up that I never really understood. Anyhow his wife loves Joni but like many fell out of the loop in the late '70s. So sneaky me decided to play Both Sides Now in the office. A few times went by without a comment, and then last week he finally noticed. "Ooh. Who's singing this?" When I replied Joni, he said, "Joni MItchell. God her voice has changed. I like it much better." I almost wet my pants. So I copied it for him (don't worry, he promises to buy the regular edition March 21) and he took it home to his wife. She loved it but couldn't believe it was Joni. So now she asked me for a list of what Joni's done recently. Question is, what do you-my fellow experts think that someone who's been out of the Joni-loop for over twenty years and who loved the new album would repsond best to? MY first thought is Night Ride Home. Maybe Hits? Jerome ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:16:14 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Critics of all expression...(NJC).....I suppose Hello David, I very much agree with what you say on the nature of the UK press. I think it's a general malaise that doesn't seem to be confined to music alone, although I know exactly what you mean about the NME. I used to read it myself as a teenager, but - - as you say - the endless stream of self-serving and wilfully idiosyncratic twaddle eventually became too tiresome. In the UK music press, it does seem that a caustic, negative and "I'm smarter than you" attitude seems a prerequisite for any budding writer. That continually worries me, not only from a readership point of view (the underlying and unrelenting cynicism becomes demoralising after a while) but also because I'd like to become involved in some form of music/film journalism/criticism. It seems the only thing I can really do with any competence, and which isn't too affected by my physical limitations and poor health. Anyone who's seen my site, or maybe even read my e-mails, will know that I do NOT subscribe to that negative mindset of reviewing and expressing my opinions. People comment on how *positive* my reviews and general writing is in regard to films and music. It's the way I am. I tend to see the good aspects of something, rather than the bad. Even if I do see some bad, I still highlight the good instead. That's all very well, but I don't know where that leaves me in terms of any genuine prospect of fullfilling my ambition of being a bona-fide critic/journalist. Of course, if something is truly awful or worthless, then I would say so...I'm not that short of perspective, but I do feel that overall the UK media leans towards negativity and "clever-dick" smugness. On a slightly tangental note, I am continually dismayed by the style of film reviews that are written these days. They seem to care little about revealing the entire plot details, blow-by-blow, a widespread habit that undermines the very point of watching a movie. I often wonder if these so-called critics actually see the films they review. The information they divulge could be copied from some PR spiel, while their opinions of certain cast members frequently bear little relation to the actual film. They simply use the fact that so-and-so has a new film, to air their own nasty little witticisms. I'd like to help change that around, give people an alternative. Anyone can give away the plot and say they think it's crap and so-snd-so is a lousy actor/actress. Same with music. It doesn't take any effort or knowledge to rubbish someone's album simply on the strength of their preconceptions and received stereotyping. Unfortunately, it happens far too often. I think the UK public gets short-changed, but will anyone be interested in someone who wants to go against the current flow? Jason. Dmascall@aol.com wrote: > In a perverse way, I think the sixties yen for self-expression at all times > has maybe got something to do with the prevalence of negative comment in > relatively modern music criticism, particularly in the UK. As far as music > criticism goes, I was brought up on the NME (New Musical Express) in the > 1970's, which was for a while a platform for a very I'm ever-so-clever > lit-crit attitude to music,though there were some notable exceptions (Ian > Mcdonald who later wrote the glorious Beatles book "Revolution in the head" > was one of the writers at that time). The writers had an absolute ball > showing how clever and literate or expressive they were, often at the expense > of the artists who were the butt of their prejudices. The eagerness of the > writers to put their own idiosyncratic stamp on everything they wrote about > got in the way of the music, and it's stayed there to some extent ever since. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #107 ***************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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