From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #97 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, February 16 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 097 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: straight white male Joni fans .... (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] Re: Reprise Response [Martin Giles ] RE: BSN NY Times Review NJC [Martin Giles ] Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni [CarltonCT] Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and JoniNJC [ca] Re: "My Grandfather's Clock" (SJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Gene Shay and the "Enchanted Lady". [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] TENNESSEE AL (NJC) [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Gene Shay and the "Enchanted Lady". [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Much Aloha! [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: Picture Frames [Siresorrow@aol.com] RE: Deleted Joni - Xena, Starbucks - NJC for the luvvagod ["Catherine McK] Re: Madonna? (still NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: straight white male Joni fans [jan gyn ] Re: Much Aloha! ["Mark T. Domyancich" ] re: Tax Free ["David" ] Re: Gene Shay and the "Enchanted Lady". ["Mark T. Domyancich" ] The Andersons [w evans ] Re: Tax Free [Randy Remote ] Re: Tax Free (this is now NJC) ["Catherine McKay" ] re: Tax Free [Don Rowe ] Joni's Magic Dust [RIKandBRAD@aol.com] Re: Tax FreeNJC [catman ] Re: miss american pie (njc) ["Matthew Hall" ] Re: Joni's "God" Notes [Scott and Jody ] BSN in the UK [Martin Giles ] RE: BSN NY Times Review NJC [Martin Giles ] re: Tax Free - NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: miss american pie (njc) [Don Rowe ] Re: Tax Free [Jerry Notaro ] Re: miss american pie (njc) [Jerry Notaro ] Another BSN Commentary [Mike Friedman ] Re: BSN Gave it a spin [Mike Friedman ] Re: miss american pie (njc) [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: BSN NY Times Review [Mike Friedman ] Re: miss american pie (njc) [Don Rowe ] Re: BSN NY Times Review [Mike Friedman ] NJC Grandfather's Clock [Linda Worster ] Re: [NJC] Synchronicity and the Grandfather's Clock. [MDESTE1@aol.com] The Genius Of Joni Mitchell [Jason Maloney ] new york times review etc ["geronimo" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:37:20 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: straight white male Joni fans .... (NJC) Doug says (about David): << I was seduced at a tender age by HOSL......and recall previous Joni encounters under the bedclothes with a transistor radio >> I wonder what JMDL members think about the use of battery powered appliances under the sheets? Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Van Diemens Land ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:32:23 -0500 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Gene Shay and the "Enchanted Lady". Joni's recent "I am not a folksinger" comments on the CBC interview have sparked a wave of posts among the radio DJs on the FOLKDJ-L. For me, none more interesting and cheering than this one from Gene Shay (who was discussed here recently when he played a track from Steve Dulson's new CD). He has given me permission to copy his Folkdj-l post on the JMDL. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: GeneS5@AOL.COM Subject: Re: FOLKDJ-L Digest - 15 Feb 2000 - Special issue (#2000-127) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:37:51 EST Joni Mitchell has been an important part of my broadcasting career. For one thing she used to come on my folk show and do lengthy interviews--- singing songs like "Just Like Me", Morning Comes To Morgantown" and "Dr, Junk The Dentist Man". One Sunday Joni sang "Both Sides Now" talked about the book "Henderson The Rain King" that inspired it and told me she had written the song in Philly just 3 days before my show. That was the first time it was ever heard on radio---anywhere. Those legendary radio interviews with Joni became classics and were eventually bootlegged and issued on a couple of poorly pressed LPs. You can hear my voice on those bootlegs and even though the bootlegs gave credit to the "Guys at WMMR" the interviews were done in 1967 at WHAT-FM (my first station---and where I called my show "Folklore").The tapes of the 'HAT' interviews were aired again when I moved to 'MMR'---that's why the bootleggers were confused. One night when I interviewed Joni I had Gordon Lightfoot as a guest and Leonda---a Boston based folkie. On another interview along with Joni I had The Young Tradition and Dave Van Ronk (we had The Main Point and the Second Fret operating on Sundays in those days). In the middle of the interview Chris Smither popped into the studio---next, Jamie Brockett. They had been travelling through the area and heard the interview, and stopped by to hang out. My main conduit to Joni in those days was my good buddy Tom Rush---the first artist to recognize her brilliant writing. I was with Tom the day the test pressing of his version of "Circle Game" was delivered, issued on a 45rpm, Prestige record. He couldn't wait to get to my studio to hear it on a professional sound system. Somewhere in my archives I have a tape of Joni and her husband Chuck Mitchell singing "Circle Game" on my show the very first time I met them. On that same interview Joni told the story of how her friend was not allowed to belong to this Toronto folk music club because it was for teens only and he had turned 20. He was so pissed that he wrote "Sugar Mountain" and she then answered back by writing "Circle Game". That childhood friend of hers was of course, Neil Young and that was the first time "Sugar Mountain" was ever heard on radio---I believe. Once in New York City I bumped into Joni and Graham Nash walking into a Walgreens Drug Store. Me, the folkie didn't know who Graham Nash was when Joni introduced us, though I had heard of the Hollies. He told me that he and David Crosby and Neil Young had just gotten together and were working out harmonies to record some tunes. Joni and Graham were on their way to Tom Rush's apartment to listen to some demos. They had Tom's key while he was on tour out west. One of the nicest and folkiest things Joni ever did for me was agree to play a benefit concert for the Main Point that I produced and hosted some years later when she was well known. She flew in to Philly with bassist Jaco Pastorious and percussionist Bobbie Hall Porter and played two shows at the Tower Theater and she picked up the entire tab for her groups expenses... flights . food---the works. The benefit raised 30 thousand dollars and kept the Main Point alive for a few more years. Also on that benefit show--Tom Waits, Dave Van Ronk, Melanie, Tom Rush and Springteeen pianist David Sancious. Even though she played the folk circuit and often hung out with folkie types from Sasketoon to South Philly I never really thought of her as a "folksinger" and it really doesn't matter. For a short while they used to bill her as the "Enchanted Lady". That she was, and still is. She is a brilliant, gifted artist who has sprinkled her magic dust on me---and I have been lucky enough to enjoy the glow. Gene Shay,WXPN, Phila. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In his e-mail giving me permission to copy this post to the JMDL, Gene says "I have so many pleasant memories of her that I hope someday to include them all in a book of memoirs about my life in the music biz. That's a project I'll save for my retirement." Very best wishes PaulC Across the Pond @ http://www.folkmusic.about.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:46:13 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Reprise Response LOL Lindsay! I thought I was the only person who did this. atb, Martin. Who doesn't own TTT, but who has had the melody to 'Love Puts On A New Face' going around his head for about a week now. Maybe I should buy it so I can learn the words! Lindsay Moon said on Tuesday.. > haven't been doing my part in the local marketing which consists > of going into stores and asking clerks with plenty of customers around if > they have it. Loudly. Also, checking other Joni stock and rearranging all > Joni CDs to make sure they are prominent enough (often put Hejira at front > since it is so striking and strikingly beautiful.) > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:12:30 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: RE: BSN NY Times Review NJC Loius, you are a man after my own heart. I'm just in the process of setting up a little outfit which I think will be called www.doyouwantmetohoithimboss?.com Perhaps we can send the boys round to crush some knuckles? atb, Martin 'fingers' Giles. Louis offered.. > OK, List, here's the situation: > > 1. We have a record company that lied to us on the Internet advertising. > > 2. That same record company screwed up big-time on shipping. > > 3. That same record company now says they are back-ordered. > > 4. Hundreds of Joni Mitchell fans cannot get her new album. > > 5. Record reviewers are insulting Joni at "both ends of the age spectrum." > > 6. Record store weenies delete her other works from the computer catalog. > > Something is wrong here people! We must unite! What can we do? Surely we > can join forces and pool our resources and muster our contacts and come up > with a creative solution to end this crisis situation. Hey, someone took > down e-trade.com last week. C'mon, people, we can do better than that! > Atlas is shrugging here!!!! > > Should we take out reprise.com? Is there some way we can cancel every > single subscription to the New York Times? Surely we can cripple some major > government unit to make a statement? Or stage a sit-down strike until it's > resolved (someplace warm for Catgirl, of course)? And, while we're at it, > let's lobby to make it illegal to own or transport any recorded product by > Gloria Estefan. > > We must synchronize our watches and reconnoiter or something like that. > Whatever John Wayne would do! We must seek revenge! > > I hereby volunteer for active duty. I can't let these perfectly good > nicotine withdrawal symptoms go to waste! > > Regards, > Harper (child of the 70s) Lou ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 05:41:17 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and Joni As usual, I've been going through a backlog of Digests and am finally getting it all together to comment on a few threads and share some interesting news. Six months back I reported that a chance meeting with one of Barry Manilow's producers resulted in my learning that Mr. Mandy is a big fan of our Joan. Who'd have guessed? Well, I was at a dinner party the other night and met a very bright and interesting producer who is a Joni fan. Then again, ever met anyone stupid who liked Joni? Anyway, this guy had been with Liz Taylor that afternoon on Hollywood Boulevard where she had unveiled the latest star on the Walk of Fame for her friend Carol Bayer Sager (sp?). The producer then told me that Carol (once married to Burt Bacarach) had informed him that her favorite artist was Miss Joni Mitchell and that several of her songs were inspired by Joni. I had to put down my fork and take a long sip of my margarita. "What songs would those be?" I asked him. It turns out that Ms. Sager's two greatest, Joni inspired hits are "When I Need You" which was chirped by the once renowned English falsettoist Leo Sayer, and the other one was "Don't Cry Out Loud" by the glitter hippie and perm queen, Melissa Manchester. Quite frankly, I don't hear it. But it all goes to show that those who make their living writing songs of any kind know that Roberta Joan Anderson is the greatest songwriter on the planet - or at least in the Western World. I've posted about this on the gays and straights thing before, but the vast majority of men I know who love Joni are almost all straight who fell in love with her and are haunted by both her physical beauty as well as her artistry. Most of those men are musicians, or at least musicologists, who know just what an innovator and original she is. All the jazz musicians I know respect Joni and know her music. But almost all musicians are romantics of some kind, have some poetry in their soul, and those are the kinds of people whether they are male, female, straight or gay, who will see themselves in the genius of Joni Mitchell. It wasn't until I joined this list that I met so many gay brothers who understand the Siquomb thing. I am very frustrated to tell you that I know hundreds of gay men and many of them have no idea who Joni is or still think of her as a folk singer. They get her confused with Joan Baez and Judy Collins. A few of the older ones may have owned Court and Spark back in 1974. Yes, Joni certainly has her gay male fans, but she is not one of their prominent divas. Gay men don't usually like jazz, rock or folk and don't get Joni. The usual gay divas are Judy, Barbra, Liza, Bette, Shirley, Madonna and a few others. The younger generation still likes Madonna but are listening to dance stuff from the new divas like Deborah Cox and Crystal Waters. David Lahm makes some interesting points about Joni's tunes which he feels are less interesting after Hejira. I think he accurately cites Hejira as the best of Joni once she entered into "Rececititive". After listening again to NRH as well as TI and TTT, there is a change of guitar style that begins with Hejira. The songs are not as elaborately picked, and many of them have lots of drones in the chords, particularly in the upper strings. The rhythms of the strums are more complex, more African, but the tunes are not as striking or broad in their range, perhaps something that coincided with the gradual loss of Joni's upper register. STAS is still an amazing album I never grow tired of, but it's very different from Hejira and the later work. The guitar stylings on the songs of STAS are so elaborate, as if they could be separate compositions for guitar instead of accompaniment to a song. I think Hejira was the first album where words were given prominence over music and the musical style was compelling because of its more hypnotic qualities, something that was foreshadowed on the droney dulcimer work of BLUE. And speaking of things that are blue, this is a warning to the male musicians on the list. I had a friend who dropped into town for a surprise Valentine's Day visit. In our last couple of hours together, he wanted to engage once more in something which had made that weekend especially fulfilling, again and again. I told him I was already quite fulfilled, and didn't know if we could charm the snake once more, so he gave me a viagra. While we waited for it to take effect, he asked my to play my latest tunes for him. I picked up my guitar and could not set my tunings as my ear had turned completely into tin. They should put on the bottle "Side effects may include headaches, blurred vision and an inability to find open tunings." Otherwise, this drug works spectacularly well. love and joy, - - Clark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:46:51 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Viagra, drones, Carol Bayer Sager, gays and straights and JoniNJC Many is a good example of why critics are next to useless. He sells millions upon millions of records, does sell out concerts and has a huge fan base. The critics think he is crap. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:40:50 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: "My Grandfather's Clock" (SJC) The Joni song closest to Grandfathers Clock is Morning Morgantown. Theres one place in that song that mirrors a part of the old chestnut. md ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:57:42 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Gene Shay and the "Enchanted Lady". Paul, What a great post from Gene Shay - thanks so much for going to the length to get it to us. Also very cool to know that we have access to most of the recordings he was talking about! Bob NP: Jethro Tull, "Locomotive Breath" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:22:11 -0500 (EST) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: TENNESSEE AL (NJC) Apologies to Bob Hunter and all the presidential hopefuls. Sung to the tune Tennessee Jed by the Grateful Dead TENNESSEE AL Old George W.'s slick campaign Listen to the jugernaut of John McCain You know Bill Bradley's on your tail "Better head back to Tennessee Al" Tennessee, Tennessee Man, this campaign's killing me If I die please bury me Back in Tennessee Rich man donates lots of cash When I get elected gonna smoke me some hash Well it's alright if you don't inhale Come and get baked with President Al President, President In the White House, don't pay rent Millions borrowed, millions spent To be President Bush all day and McCain all night Keyes can't upset you 'cause he don't talk white Got a letter this morning from Bradley in the mail "Better head back to Tennessee Al" Tennessee, Tennessee Beats the Penitentiary If people won't elect me it's Back to Tennessee You know Bill's job, it should be mine Didn't get fired and he wouldn't resign They should have tossed his lying ass into jail Then you'd be calling me President Al President, President Just like Ford in his ascent Tipper would be so content If I were President I run into Danny Quale Having lunch with Walt Mondale Old Walter said to me, "If you fail, you'd better pack up for Tennessee Al" Tennessee, Tennessee Danny Quale, Mondale and me Just another ex-V.P. Back in Tennessee I toked up some real mean green Inched my way through some Dead dream The spinners twirled round and the band did wail "Better head back to Tennessee Al" Tennessee, Tennessee Looks like no White House for me Just another ex-V.P. Back in Tennessee gdaveŠ2000 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:57:53 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Gene Shay and the "Enchanted Lady". In a message dated 2/16/00 4:43:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, pdcmusic@freeuk.com writes: << For me, none more interesting and cheering than this one from Gene Shay (who was discussed here recently when he played a track from Steve Dulson's new CD). He has given me permission to copy his Folkdj-l post on the JMDL. >> this was so excellent to read. thanks very much. pat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:07:09 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Much Aloha! 10 bucks says he's back on the list in three months. takers? pat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:31:12 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Picture Frames In a message dated 2/15/00 2:24:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, ssimpson@bcm.tmc.edu writes: << I find it very odd that JM would want to work on her painting as opposed to her music in terms of achievement. >> i'm not so sure she is painting for achievement. here's why: i think about her line from 1971...oh, i'm a lonely painter, i live in a box of paints... then, i think about how before that she had gone to art college and got pregnant. the father left town. she married another guy...that fell apart. finally, she gives the child up. then she started singing to get by on the local coffee house scene. and people liked her singing and beckoned her to sing more and more and so she did. then she hit the big time and i think she always felt compromised in that even from the very beginning (1969). ....and i play if you have the money, or if you're a friend to me, but the one man band by the quick lunch stand, he was playing real good for free.... so now, with her years behind her, and her child returned, and having done all the big shows, money no longer an issue, she goes back to her first love and does it for....her self. i really think she is doing it for herself, not for anyone else. and if it gets some attention, fine. if not, fine. so some people have told her that her frames look like mafia..no problem. she still uses them. she's just wearing her heart on her sleeve. pat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:35:40 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: RE: Deleted Joni - Xena, Starbucks - NJC for the luvvagod Chris says: >Make mine a vente latte... You've pointed out the very thing that most irritates me about Starbucks. Why can't they just call them small, medium and large like everyone else? I usually just go in and point and grunt something like, "gimme the strongest brew you got in one o' them there kinda cups". Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:40:17 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Madonna? (still NJC) A long, long time ago, I can still remember, someone asked: > > > > When did this become the Madonna discussion list? Please don't >forget > > > > NJC To which wiseass Don responded: > > > > I think that was right around the time that this > > became the Politically Correct Express Sexual > > Preference Framers Guild Critic Haters Jefferson > > Airplane Nillson Ani DiFranco Dar Williams Lauyn Hill > > Bruce Cockburn Plug Of The Week Straight Outing > > Lucinda Williams CSNY Melissa's Baby Father Guitar > > Shapes Alternate Tuning Jonatha Brooke discussion > > list. ;-) > To which wiser-assed Jason cracked: >...isn't that the new title of Fiona Apple's latest CD?? ;-D To which s***-disturber me, never one to let the opportunity for silliness pass her by, feels compelled to ask: SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, when did this become the Fiona Apple discussion list????? (and, have a nice day!) Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:58:32 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: straight white male Joni fans .><< I was seduced at a tender age by HOSL......and recall previous Joni >encounters under the bedclothes with a transistor radio >> "You Turn Me On,..." - -jan :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:29:31 -0600 From: "Mark T. Domyancich" Subject: Re: Much Aloha! I agree! Maybe he's still silently lurking.... let's talk behind his back! :-D At 9:07 AM -0500 2/16/00, Siresorrow@aol.com wrote: >10 bucks says he's back on the list in three months. takers? pat NP-Just Like This Train Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:32:19 PST From: "David" Subject: re: Tax Free Cassy wrote : Speaking of "God" notes, "Tax Free" one of my personal favorites deals with an entirely different perspective on religion and "God's hired hands." Rod Steiger does an excellent job as the "preacher" cassy Yes, I especially like the preachers last line. After all these hateful statement, the preacher says, in a barely audible voice, I am a preacher of love. I am. I think that just strengthens incredibly; Joni's point of what a hateful man the preacher is. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:34:43 -0600 From: "Mark T. Domyancich" Subject: Re: Gene Shay and the "Enchanted Lady". At 9:32 AM -0500 2/16/00, Paul Castle wrote: >One of the nicest and folkiest things Joni ever did for me was agree to >play a benefit concert for the Main Point that I produced and hosted some >years later when she was well known. She flew in to Philly with bassist Jaco >Pastorious and percussionist Bobbie Hall Porter and played two shows at >the Tower Theater and she picked up the entire tab for her groups >expenses... flights . food---the works. The benefit raised 30 thousand >dollars and kept the Main Point alive for a few more years. Also on that >benefit show--Tom Waits, Dave Van Ronk, Melanie, Tom Rush and >Springteeen pianist David Sancious. I hope these were recorded! (Anybody who's heard the Save The Whales benefit would agree!) :-D Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:05:05 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: re: Tax Free Speaking of "Tax Free" and Rod Steiger, does anyone know this: Did Rod Steiger record this especially for Joni's album, or were these lines taken from a movie he had done previously? (I keep hearing/seeing him singing "Poor Judd is daid, poor Judd [wutzisname?] is daid". >Cassy wrote : > >Speaking of "God" notes, "Tax Free" one of my personal favorites deals >with >an entirely different perspective on religion and "God's hired hands." Rod >Steiger does an excellent job as the "preacher" > David responded: >Yes, I especially like the preachers last line. After all these hateful >statement, the preacher says, in a barely audible voice, I am a preacher of >love. I am. I think that just strengthens incredibly; Joni's point of what >a >hateful man the preacher is. > Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:07:32 -0500 (EST) From: w evans Subject: The Andersons Has anyone here ever actually met Myrtle and Bill Anderson? How was it? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:06:59 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Tax Free Isn't that from the musical, "Oklahoma"? Catherine McKay wrote: > > Speaking of "Tax Free" and Rod Steiger, does anyone know this: > Did Rod Steiger record this especially for Joni's album, or were these lines > taken from a movie he had done previously? (I keep hearing/seeing him > singing "Poor Judd is daid, poor Judd [wutzisname?] is daid". > > >Cassy wrote : > > > >Speaking of "God" notes, "Tax Free" one of my personal favorites deals > >with > >an entirely different perspective on religion and "God's hired hands." Rod > >Steiger does an excellent job as the "preacher" > > > > David responded: > >Yes, I especially like the preachers last line. After all these hateful > >statement, the preacher says, in a barely audible voice, I am a preacher of > >love. I am. I think that just strengthens incredibly; Joni's point of what > >a > >hateful man the preacher is. > > > > Catherine (in Toronto) > cateri@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:27:41 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Tax Free (this is now NJC) >Isn't that from the musical, "Oklahoma"? I couldn't remember whether it was Oklahoma or Carousel, but now that you've said Oklahoma, that's what I'm going with! I get the two of them mixed up. > >Catherine McKay wrote: > > > > Speaking of "Tax Free" and Rod Steiger, does anyone know this: > > Did Rod Steiger record this especially for Joni's album, or were these >lines > > taken from a movie he had done previously? (I keep hearing/seeing him > > singing "Poor Judd is daid, poor Judd [wutzisname?] is daid". > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:34:29 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: re: Tax Free - --- Catherine McKay wrote: > Speaking of "Tax Free" and Rod Steiger, does anyone > know this: > Did Rod Steiger record this especially for Joni's > album, or were these lines > taken from a movie he had done previously? (I keep > hearing/seeing him > singing "Poor Judd is daid, poor Judd [wutzisname?] > is daid". > I believe the monologue was written especially for the song. And that's Judd "Frye" (my wife's from Tulsa Oklahoma -- so it's been mandatory that I learn the entire musical by heart ...) Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:55:11 EST From: RIKandBRAD@aol.com Subject: Joni's Magic Dust >>>For a short while they used to bill her as the >>>"Enchanted Lady". That she was, and still is. She is >>>a brilliant, gifted artist who has sprinkled her >>>magic dust on me---and I have been lucky enough to >>>enjoy the glow. No one could say it better - thanks to Paul C. for sharing this lovely tribute. Also to Gene for creating it. Richard in Hollywood Last Seen in Detroit in '68 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:03:54 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Tax FreeNJC Oklahoma and Carousel? Must have been before my time..... Actually, is the first the one with Doris Day playing a lesbian with a gun and blonde pigtails? And the second was a film with Vanessa Redgrave and Richard Harris? Or was it the other Irish drunken actor whose name escapes me right now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:17:01 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: miss american pie (njc) I just got this from the rolling stone mailing list, and thought it was worth a mention DON McLEAN PRAISES MADONNA'S "AMERICAN PIE" MADONNA's take on DON McLEAN's "American Pie" has already won the favor of radio listeners, and now the song's scribe has given it his own seal of approval. McLean has offered up his praise of the Material Girl's take on his signature tune, saying: "It is a gift for her to have recorded 'American Pie.' I have heard her version and I think it is sensual and mystical. I have received many gifts from God, but this is the first time I have ever received a gift from a goddess. Now who can argue with the man himself? You lot I suppose... Matthew NP: Fiona Apple 'Fast As You Can' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:30:28 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: miss american pie (njc) Matthew: Oh, that is just so way sick! I love both Don McLean's songs and Madonna's singing, but did he have to coat it with so much goo! Oooooooooooooooooooooooo! Too much goo! Yuck! Yuck! Yuck! How can a man who wrote something as sublime as "Vincent" say something so hideously benign? Blows my whole image of him. Couldn't he just fart into the microphone or something? Ooooh! I'll never get that out of my mind, now. And I finally figured out "Castles in the Air" on the harp, too! Yuck! It's like, if you drink too much at the reception then vomit on the wedding cake, can you survive the rest of the marriage? Do I smell saccharin burning, here? (No, that was just Marie Osmond putting on lip liner.) If they make an American Pie Beanie Baby to commemorate this, I'm outta here! Starting to become sensitive to offensive odors since quitting smoking, Harper Lou (And, besides, Mr. McLean, Joni's the goddess, stupid!) - -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Hall [mailto:jim50@hall7068.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 2:17 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: miss american pie (njc) I just got this from the rolling stone mailing list, and thought it was worth a mention DON McLEAN PRAISES MADONNA'S "AMERICAN PIE" MADONNA's take on DON McLEAN's "American Pie" has already won the favor of radio listeners, and now the song's scribe has given it his own seal of approval. McLean has offered up his praise of the Material Girl's take on his signature tune, saying: "It is a gift for her to have recorded 'American Pie.' I have heard her version and I think it is sensual and mystical. I have received many gifts from God, but this is the first time I have ever received a gift from a goddess. Now who can argue with the man himself? You lot I suppose... Matthew NP: Fiona Apple 'Fast As You Can' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:32:14 -0600 From: Scott and Jody Subject: Re: Joni's "God" Notes Phyliss wrote: > I have to add - the one that give me chills every time > > ..only a dark cocoon before I get my gooooooolden wings and flyyyyyy away > Another one for me is from 'Sunny Sunday' - But the day she hits, That's the day she'll leave That one little victory, that's all she needs! Although, didn't Joni mention in an interview that these were perceived as the Devil's chords :-) jody ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:40:34 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: BSN in the UK I've just had a look at this weeks' copy of Music Week which lists March 6th as the release date for BSN in the UK. atb, Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:47:00 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: RE: BSN NY Times Review NJC Aphorism of the week... Always be an optimist. Pessimists are more often right. But optimists have more fun. atb, Martin. (Unfortunately a pessimist at heart. Moan.) BobSCi said.. > Maybe all we need to do is properly lower our expectations! If we expect items to be backordered, > beat to hell, poorly reviwed, sold by idiotic sales clerks, then things will go pretty much as > expected, and if they go better, then it's a pleasant surprise! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:49:35 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: re: Tax Free - NJC >"Poor Judd is daid, poor Judd [wutzisname?] > > is daid". >And that's Judd "Frye" (my wife's from Tulsa >Oklahoma -- so it's been mandatory that I learn the >entire musical by heart ...) Thanks, Don - all I could think of was Judd Strunk! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:36:48 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: miss american pie (njc) - --- Matthew Hall wrote: > I just got this from the rolling stone mailing list, > DON McLEAN PRAISES MADONNA'S "AMERICAN PIE" > > Now who can argue with the man himself? > You lot I suppose... > I'm actually going to take a slight bit of offense at this ... afterall, this is a *discussion* list -- without a difference of opinion it would merely be a *mutual admiration society* -- and a far less interesting place than it is currently. And though I may take Madonna to task for her sometimes tawdry and tiresome obsession with her body, that in no way diminishes my appreciation of her music ... Fact is, if I liked Madonna's cover of 'American Pie' and Don McLean trashed it ... so what? I say "if" because I live under a rock and haven't heard her version yet, but when I do ... I'll come to my own conclusions independent of the endorsement of the composer. Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:23:56 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Tax Free Catherine McKay wrote: > Speaking of "Tax Free" and Rod Steiger, does anyone know this: > Did Rod Steiger record this especially for Joni's album, or were these lines > taken from a movie he had done previously? (I keep hearing/seeing him > singing "Poor Judd is daid, poor Judd [wutzisname?] is daid". It was recorded specifically for the record, unlike Jim Backus which was taken from Rebel Without a Cause. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:26:54 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: miss american pie (njc) Don Rowe wrote: > because I live under a rock and haven't heard her > version yet, but when I do ... I'll come to my own > conclusions independent of the endorsement of the > composer. Could the fact that he likes it have anything to do with all the royalties he is going to make??? Hmmmmmmmm. As much as I like Madonna, I like her version of American Pie as much as I liked her Evita. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:33:59 -0800 From: Mike Friedman Subject: Another BSN Commentary I think BSN is GREAT. I got it last week, and have been listening to it on and off ever since. The interpretations are really interesting, especially of some songs that are faves of mine ("You've Changed," "I Wish I Were In Love Again"). A friend of mine, who I'm seducing into Joni-ism was also quite impressed. We listened to it on the drive up to Tahoe (8.5 hours last Friday!!!!) and it was great for that, because it was so engaging. Cheers, Mike ============================================================= "I see the blue pools in the squinting sun and the hissing of summer lawns."--Joni Mitchell, 1975 Mike Friedman, San Francisco, CA, USA http://63.192.218.181 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:54:33 -0800 From: Mike Friedman Subject: Re: BSN Gave it a spin Nothing can be done. :-) Couldn't resist. Mike ================================================================ "Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?" "I think so, Brain, but how are we gonna find chaps our size?" Mike Friedman San Francisco, CA, USA http://63.192.218.181 > From: dsk > Reply-To: dsk > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:01:32 -0500 > To: joni@smoe.org > Cc: cjenkins@austin.rr.com > Subject: BSN Gave it a spin > > > But I can't get Comes Love out of my head. What's up with that? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:57:56 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: miss american pie (njc) In a message dated 2/16/00 3:34:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: << Could the fact that he likes it have anything to do with all the royalties he is going to make??? Hmmmmmmmm. >> i have a copy of an old version of Stormy Monday by Muddy Waters. in his preamble, he said this is his most played song and he just loves it when other people play his song. and then he chuckles and says ..i really really love it when they record my song, cause a what i get in the royalties, if you know what i mean.. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:04:37 -0800 From: Mike Friedman Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review Honey, that's his JOB. Chill out. It's just a review. Mostly a good one, too! I don't agree with everything he has to say, but Joni's voice has changed SIGNIFICANTLY over the past 30 years. That's normal and great. It's lower, she has less range, and can't hold a breath as long as she used to be able to do (after 40 years of smoking, that's not surprising). Every singer's voice changes, some need to stop before they do (Sinatra) and some can keep singing till they die (Sarah Vaughn, who was better when she was older, IMHO). Cheers, Mike ============================================================= "I see the blue pools in the squinting sun and the hissing of summer lawns."--Joni Mitchell, 1975 Mike Friedman, San Francisco, CA, USA http://63.192.218.181 > From: Eric Taylor > Reply-To: Eric Taylor > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 05:55:58 -0800 > To: JMDL > Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review > > Stephen Holden www.nytimes.com epitomises why I detest snotty critics: > > << FEW contemporary voices have aged more shockingly than Joni Mitchell's. > The craggy alto on "Both Sides Now," her intermittently magnificent new > album of standards (including two of her best-loved original songs), is so > changed from the sweetly yodeling folk soprano of her earliest albums that > it hardly seems possible the two sounds could have come from the same body. > In refusing to fight or try to camouflage the ravages of time, Ms. Mitchell > belongs to an interpretive school that includes Billie Holiday and Frank > Sinatra, whose vocal deterioration brought them greater emotional depth and > realism. >> > > This overpaid snob sits on his pompous ass putting down the greatest > musicians of our time (no doubt masturbating to ads glorifying anorexic > youth). > "Vocal deterioration?!" > I've never understood why people with no talent besides thinking up > snide critiques get paid SO much more than, say, yard boys. > Lawnmowers of the world UNITE! > E.T. > > __________________________________________ > NetZero - Defenders of the Free World > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:32:57 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: miss american pie (njc) > Could the fact that he likes it have anything to do > with all the royalties he is going to make??? > Hmmmmmmmm. > Jerry > Jerry, seeing the glass half empty, I see. Much as I hate to say this, will his endorsement have any real effect one way or another? I mean, are people who know who he is aren't going to run out and buy a Madonna CD on his say so? And those who are going to buy it anyway are just going to say, "oh that's THAT guy?" Seems kind of a wash to me ... Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:14:41 -0800 From: Mike Friedman Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review David Lahm noted: > > <<...I don't really think Stephen Holden was COMPLAINING about the quality > of JM's 56-year-old voice. "Shockingly" expresses surprise at least as much > as it suggests disapproval or distress. >> > > It was Holden's unfortunate choice of the word "craggy" to describe > Joni's voice that set me off. Craggy means "rough, hard or rugged in form." > This & his further assessment of Joni's "vocal deterioration" makes me > certain that he was expressing sheer disapproval. > I am shocked that any Joni fans are trying to defend Stephen Holden's > highly insulting review! > E.T. Let's examine this then. I think describing Nina Simon's voice as craggy is kind. She's never had amazing tone in the traditional sense. But is she a great singer? An amazing talent? Absolutely. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:26:04 -0500 From: Linda Worster Subject: NJC Grandfather's Clock Synchronicity rules again... my mind is absolutely blown! I'm amazed that this song came up in discussion now. Today is the 2nd anniversary of my beloved father's death. This was one of his favorite songs and when in a particularly good mood, he would march around the house singing the chorus. I don't remember ever hearing any of the other words. Until two Father's Days ago, my first without Dad, I attended the Clearwater Festival to sit in with a friend at his performance. And there, for the first time, I heard the song in it's entirety- performed not as a march, but a beautiful ballad... I went home, found the words on the internet and learned it, and have sung it at many a concert since. I know Dad would have loved hearing it this way, and I always feel that he was in some way sending it to me.... so this thread- as I'm reading it today is a real thrill for me. To hear the song first on father's day and now to have a whole discussion to read about it on the day of Dad's passing... Like the man in the story, my father was 90 (well, 2 months short of his 90th birthday) when he died. And I was by his side- having "heard an alarm in the still of the night"... Dad loved synchronicity. Before he died, he said he would contact me after he passed if that were possible. Call it wishful thinking, call me nuts... or whatever... but there sure are a LOT of "coincidences" that happen- especially around music. I feel his presence in this song so strongly- and I feel he is saying hello (AGAIN) in this discussion. Thanks to you all. Linda, feeling thankful for my dear Dad NATP (now about to play): Grandfather's Clock- one more time for you, Dad ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:26:11 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: [NJC] Synchronicity and the Grandfather's Clock. Thank you Linda for sharing this wonderful story. You relating it to your own fathers passing brought back to me two such events in my life. perhaps others have some so this would make for a really interesting thread. The first involved a man that I worked with who was very close to a saintly guy doing all sorts of charity functions and things for his church. When he was just 51 he contracted the big C and went through a year or so before he passed away. The night of his wake was one of the few times I was really sad because he was such a good person and had done so much for his church I was asking God, literally,why he would take such a good person off this earth. This man had numerous religious artifacts and medals and pictures in his office and his house. He and I had talked many times and at the end I visited him in the hospital. That night of his wake I heard a loud noise in the front of our house ain the middle of the night nd I walked out to find that a vase holding an orchid had fallen from the very middle of our dining room table (where my wife always had a flower)to about five feet away from the table onto the floor. There was no wind or open window. It had simply flown off the table. The next morning someone called and told me that Bob has passed away just about the time the orchid fell off our table. Bob loved orchids as a hobby. Such a thing has never happened to us before or since, only the hour that Bob passed away. The second time occurred when there was another associate who was an excentric man who had the greatest voice I had ever heard. In fact he was from New York originally and his voice was refined and very baritone and eloquent as could possibly be. Sort of a real life John Facenda. Never cursed and always addressed everyone in the most polite classy manner imaginable. His one love was the horse races which he went to every week without fail. Every year he went to Kentucky and The Belmont stakes. I could listen to his colorful renditions of Horse racing stories as well as stories about night life among the stars in New York in the fourties, forever. he was a bachelor and lived alone. He also contracted the big C and literally went home for the last month of his life. The C took his voice at the end so I couldnt call him to cheer him up even. Our dinner table in our flat had a window literally next to the table which looked out over the spectacular view of North Beach and Coit Tower atop telegraph hill in San Francisco. This particular daylight savings time evening we were chatting with a glass of wine at the table and the subject turned to our favorite Elliot stories since we were aware that he wasnt going to live much longer. Then all of a sudden I looked out side and I see the most incredible cloud formation I have EVER seen. IM not kidding. Da Vinci could not have created a sculpture that looked more like a Jockey in a trenchcoat on a horse. Elliott ALWAYS wore this old Columbo like trenchcoat. I asked my wife "look out the window and tell me what you see", she said without hesitating "oh my God its a jockey on a horse". This was so close a resemblance that it could not be thought to be anything else. Legs churning , tail flying, jockey crouched with a whip hand. The next day my associate told me that Elliot had passed away the prior evening around 7pm. I was at the table at around 7:15. He had wanted his ashes spread at the finish line at Bay Meadows and they were a few days later. Of course such things can always be coincidences but I will never believe that. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:32:39 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: The Genius Of Joni Mitchell For anyone interested, I've just added a new section to my website..."The Genius Of Joni Mitchell" (yeah, dumb title, but the sound of the *G* and *J* kinda flows... doesn't it??). Anyway, it's a fairly condensed chronological overview of Joni's recording career from 1968 to BSN. I've lovingly scanned in each and every CD sleeve, and arranged them in a way that complements the breakdown of her work in the text. I'm sure it's far from a worthy judgement of her ouevre, so if anyone feels alterations are necessary, by all means let me know :-) I don't mean to step on anyone's toes.......it's just my own little tribute to the wonder of Joni.... When I get BSN, I'll add the artwork for that CD as well.... Jason. PS. Oh, you may also notice that the overall look of the site has changed.....I hope it's an improvement! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:04:04 +1100 From: "geronimo" Subject: new york times review etc One of the problems with getting the digest and only getting to my computer once a day is that by the time I read something stimulating and come up with a response, some smarter person than me on the list has already come with the same/similar response in half the time! So I'm a bit late chiming into the debate around Stephen Holden's review of BSN which I read the other day on the net. I thought it was a great review - in fact I have always enjoyed Holden's Joni critiques (and interviews) - seems to me he really is a critic ie someone whose opinion is considered, insightful and intelligent. I don't have to agree with everything he says - but then after all he's just one person, as any critic is. I still remember his reviews of HOSL and S&L when they first appeared in Rolling Stone (it was him wasn't it ?- can't find the previous post which mentioned this). The HOSL review was certainly mixed but it still made it sound interesting and didn't deter this then 17 year old, and not the rabid JM fan that he is today, from buying it. Time has not necessarily proved all his criticisms incorrect, but simply proved that HOSL was a more profound work than probably any of us could have guessed at the time. Now, his review of BSN simply makes me want to go and buy it! I think Eric Taylor has really missed the boat, but hey, that's just my opinion and I'm only one voice. I think that if someone who didn't know JM played STAS back to back with, say TTT, they would be 'shocked' by the changes in her voice - but as David Lahm said, shocked doesn't necessarily mean bad. But the way I read it , Holden is suggesting that for something lost there is also something gained. IMO I think JM's voice is sounding craggy at times, luckily I happen to like craggy (otherwise I'd have room full of Judy Collin's records). Listen to Lady in Satin which is understandably being used as a reference in relation to tracks from BSN - Holiday's voice is undeniably craggy - but its what's inside this shell which somehow becomes more powerful because of the very tenuousness of the container. I get far more cross about the reviews of BSN by people who only have a superficial knowledge of JM's music than I possibly could by Holden's informed and enjoyably provactive reading. Nicholas ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #97 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?