From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #95 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 15 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 095 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Deleted Joni NJC ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Joni's picture frames ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Deleted Joni [Martin Giles ] Re: Joni's picture frames [dsk ] RE: BSN NY Times Review (NJC) ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: Joni's picture frames ["Kakki" ] Re: BSN NY Times Review [Deb Messling ] Re: anybody have any CDNow coupons? (NJC) [Brian Gross ] FW: BSN NY Times Review ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Madonna? ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: FW: BSN NY Times Review ["Catherine McKay" ] Joni's "God" notes [Emily Kirk Gray ] RE: BSN NY Times Review [Louis Lynch ] Critics...(njc) [Steve Polifka ] Re: Larry Klein [Don Rowe ] Re: Joni's "God" notes ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Joni's picture frames [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Larry Klein ["Catherine McKay" ] RE: Joni's "God" notes [Louis Lynch ] Re: NJC Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC [michael w yarbro] Re: BSN NY Times Review [Bounced Message ] Re: Madonna? (still NJC) [Don Rowe ] RE: Madonna? (still NJC) [Louis Lynch ] Charles Schulz / "The grandfather clock song" (NJC) ["Pitassi, Mary" ] Tax Free ["cassy" ] Re: Charles Schulz / "The grandfather clock song" (NJC) ["Loren Carter" <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:49:58 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Deleted Joni NJC Victor offered the best explanation: << Blue was recently remastered. If they looked it up under the old bar code it would show up deleted since the old version was discontinued. The remastered version is considered a new release and will have its own barcode. NP: Nillson Schmillson >> Ahh, Nillson Schmillson, among the very finest rock albums ever recorded! I simply adore The Moonbeam Song!!! E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 04:15:12 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Joni's picture frames Marian observed: << I recently read the novel "Lust For Life", by Irving Stone, about the life of Vincent Van Gogh. I don't know if this is actually true, but at one point in a conversation with other artists when Van Gogh was living in Paris, Georges Seurat says: "We get through with a canvas. Then what do we do? We turn it over to some fool who puts it into a hideous gold frame and kills our every last effect. Now I propose that we should never let a picture out of our hands until we've put it into a frame and painted the frame so that it becomes an integral part of the picture." Can anybody elaborate on this? Is it true? Were there a lot of painters during Van Gogh's time that did this? Do you think Joni does this, too - out of agreement/sympathy with those painters? >> I've also wondered if Joni refinishes the frames to compliment her paintings. The textures & hues of the frames seem to bring her paintings even more alive. Knowing Joni always has a hand in every aspect of her works it wouldn't surprise me if she bought those frames at garage sales & guilded them herself! E.T. NV: In The Bar (if she painted it by numbers there must have been billions!) __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:34:46 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Deleted Joni LOL Helen! There would certainly be something wrong with the world if Joni CDs were EVER seen in the bargain bin. Let alone a yet to be released limited edition BSN. I've had a couple of bad experiences with online shopping in the last few months, so I'll go back to the high street in search of this shy, elusive rarity that they call Blue! Thanks to all who rushed to steady my world after the earthquake. Thanks also for the release date info for BSN in the UK. atb, Martin. Martin wrote: >Had an odd experience at the weekend. I went into MVC in Harrow to get a >copy of Blue on CD for a freind who needs an introduction to Joni. As >usual, it wasn't in the racks. The only ever seem to have FTR, Hits and >MOA. Nothing daunted, I went to the counter to order a copy, but the >assistant looked it up and said, "I can get it for you on cassette, but >it's been deleted on CD." Helen in New Zealand said... > Maybe this guy was the brother/cousin/nephew/uncle/father of the cretin in > the Borders store here who told me that the Both Sides Now - Limited Edition > CD package had been deleted - this was before the official US release date - > and that he couldn't order it because it was a "bargain-bin special". > > Honestly, I wouldn't put too much stock in anything some store clerks tell > you. I'm sure they're just making stuff up! And in the words of Edina > (Absolutely Fabulous) to an extremely stuck-up assistant in an art gallery > "You only work in a shop, you know, so lose the attitude!" > > Hell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 05:32:50 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Joni's picture frames Marian wrote: > On Tue , 15 Feb 2000 03:38:20 -0700, Kate > wrote: > > >Sorry, I don't know who wrote this: > > >> I showed the pictures to a painter-friend of mine and the first > thing she > >> said was, "well, the frames alone explain it all". > > I think it might have been Debra Shea? > > >I'd call it Joni's personal taste in picture frames, and that's > about it. Hi Marian, Nope, this wasn't me, but I *have* wondered on the list why Joni includes the frames in the reproductions of her paintings. It's very jarring, to my eyes anyway. Kind of pompous, kind of silly. Look in any art book and you're not going to see frames pictured, probably because it would be taking up valuable page space on something that's not very important. In the past, frames were used to enhance the artwork, mostly by separating it from the wall space surrounding it (and symbolically the breathing real life around it). They're rarely used nowadays (unless it's to hold glass that protects something done on paper), or they're just thin strips of wood protecting the sides of a canvas. Mostly that's because the modern idea of art is that it's no longer something separate from life. Expressing that idea is what drove the Impressionists. (They were the first artists that could work outside in the midst of activity capturing those fleeting impressions of light because for the first time manufactured paint sold in tubes was available, so they were no longer tied to the studio grinding pigments and making their own paints. Sorry for the art history lesson here but thinking about how that bit of new technology affected the way artists could look at the world and portray it always gives me a little thrill.) Artists usually don't bother framing their paintings; it's usually the sellers and buyers that do that (and that's probably always been the case). I don't know exactly what the sayer of that statement above had in mind, but for Joni to reproduce the frames that surround her paintings says a lot more than just what kind of frames she likes. > I recently read the novel "Lust For Life", by Irving Stone, about > the life of Vincent Van Gogh. I don't know if this is actually > true, but at one point in a conversation with other artists when > Van Gogh was living in Paris, Georges Seurat says: > > "We get through with a canvas. Then what do we do? We turn it > over to some fool who puts it into a hideous gold frame and kills > our every last effect. Now I propose that we should never let a > picture out of our hands until we've put it into a frame and > painted the frame so that it becomes an integral part of the > picture." > > Can anybody elaborate on this? Is it true? Were there a lot of > painters during Van Gogh's time that did this? Do you think Joni > does this, too - out of agreement/sympathy with those painters? I don't know if Seurat actually said that, but this speech about frames would fit with his very precise, controlled approach to his art. All those tiny shimmering dots of paint painstakingly applied would get squashed by a heavy frame, and I think he did experiment and covered at least one frame with his dots. But I doubt that he had much say about the style of frames used then since they were based on the type of art that had been produced up until that time. The separateness that the impressionists started to do away with wasn't at all understood then; it was too new. Other than fussy Seurat, I doubt that any of the other artists spent much time thinking about frames. They had enough trouble getting the materials to make the paintings themselves. So Joni's use of heavy frames is even opposite what the impressionists were about. Kind of odd since she's so influenced by them. Including the frames in the reproductions of her paintings must just feel right to her, although being the brainy person she is, she may have a conscious reason for doing that, but I have no clue as to what it would be. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:31:38 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: BSN NY Times Review (NJC) Patrick wrote:- > ewt wrote: > > This overpaid snob sits on his pompous ass <> (no doubt > > masturbating to ads glorifying anorexic youth). > > jesus eric, this is just too much. are you suggesting that anyone holding > an opinion outside of the e.w.t.-acceptable is a pervie? that is what > you're communicating... yuck, and fuck you! Er, excuse me, was that someone just saying "fuck you" to someone else on the list? That'e enough to make _me_ want to unsubscribe, let alone Eric! Two words:- LIGHTEN UP! > i may not agree with what he's said about this album, but i can > differ with him without suggesting that he masturbates over > childrens' pictures. Patrick, I think what's needed is a sense of perspective here. Eric was making a point about the ageism aparrent in the industry... but you've siezed upon a the masturbation point as being a direct suggestion that the reviewer is a paedophile. I mean, c'mon. Eric made a cynical comment, and used the masturbation imagery in the way we young folk often use it in the UK: the humourous response to some*thing* exciting. (Case in point, take a bunch of IT techies, show them a particularly cool new gadget. One, in humour, might remark; "You'll have to excuse me, I need to go for a quick ****) You know, some people resort to humour, cynicism and sarcasm when they're riled, rather then direct attacks. Compare your response to Eric's original posting and I think you'll see what I mean. (Heard of road rage? Y'know, people getting cut up on the roads, jumping out then shooting the idiot that did it? Try road sarcasm. It's much more fun.) Hrrmpf. - --Chris (wishing he hadn't been reading back through JMDL posts) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 02:51:22 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's picture frames Marian wrote: > Can anybody elaborate on this? Is it true? Were there a lot of > painters during Van Gogh's time that did this? Do you think Joni > does this, too - out of agreement/sympathy with those painters? I don't know about the frames in Van Gogh's time, but Joni has stated in a few interviews that the frames she picks are often met with great resistance from her framemaker. He has fought her on the Idyll/Idol/Ideal frame and also the new BSN cover painting frame saying it was "too Mafioso" but she laughs it off. > I am looking at the painting of Larry Klein sleeping with a cat on > the poster for the London art exhibition in 1990. Surrounding the > painting is a dark-blue painted wooden frame with gold lettering: > "Once In A While On [sic] A Big Blue Moon There Comes A Night Like > This 1987 Kauai". That's the first I've heard of this - how interesting. Everytime someone brings up that London art exhibit, I turn so green with envy ;-) > The TTT portrait is another example of a > painted frame, but in this case it seems like the frame is > actually part of the canvas, rather than a separate frame (can > anyone confirm this?). Another example is the Idol/Idyll/Ideal > painting which looks to me to be a picture of Kilauren. The TTT litho does have a painted frame surrounding it. Most people have presumed that it is Kilauren in the "Ideal" painting, but Joni has recently said it is Donald sitting there overlooking the ocean. Kakki, up way too late after running around to all the haunts with Catgirl tonight ;-) NP: Lani Hall - Banquet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 05:59:16 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review Gee, I don't think "craggy" is necessarily an insult. I mean, how often have we heard about someone's "craggy good looks?" Anyway, remember that Joni herself referred to the "degeneration" of her voice in the A&E video. I really, really don't think Holden's review was negative, although I disagree with the few negative parts of it (how is it that everyone doesn't love ACOY? I don't get it). Holden has been a big Joni booster over the years. The only absolutely negative thing he ever wrote, to my knowledge, was when he called TTT "hugely disappointing." I don't think he ever wrote a full review of that record, though. At 12:30 AM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: > It was Holden's unfortunate choice of the word "craggy" to describe >Joni's voice that set me off. Craggy means "rough, hard or rugged in form." >This & his further assessment of Joni's "vocal deterioration" > Deb Messling messling@enter.net http://www.enter.net/~messling/ I love cats. They give the home a heartbeat. - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 04:42:53 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: anybody have any CDNow coupons? (NJC) - --- Jerome wrote: > I wouldn't ask normally, but I have to reorder BSN as my copy is on hold > because Reprise doesn't seem to have a clue how to manaage ordering and > because the one I bought retail for the boyfriend is scratched as well. I > just don't have the money to pay full price right now... Thanks! Check out http://flamingoworld.com/coupon.htm There's enough coupons there to make Laura swoon :-) Later, Brian ===== "No paper thin walls, no folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:13:33 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: anybody have any CDNow coupons? (NJC) Brian, Thank you for posting the address to Flamingoworld. I was looking for this place just yesterday!! Terry had originally emailed this site's url to me and I was looking thru all the old posts and couldn't find it. I knew it was Flamingo somthing. I thought it was pinkflamingo. OOPS. When I did a search on that I got some freebies I wasn't looking for allright!! (XX) haha. I've now bookmarked the correct site! Laura Brian Gross wrote: > --- Jerome wrote: > > I wouldn't ask normally, but I have to reorder BSN as my copy is on hold > > because Reprise doesn't seem to have a clue how to manaage ordering and > > because the one I bought retail for the boyfriend is scratched as well. I > > just don't have the money to pay full price right now... Thanks! > > Check out http://flamingoworld.com/coupon.htm > There's enough coupons there to make Laura swoon :-) > > Later, > > Brian > > ===== > "No paper thin walls, no folks above > No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" > > yeah, right > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:18:12 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Deleted Joni P.S. Celebrity sighting (about 3 weeks ago)! Lucy Lawless (Xena, Warrior Princess) and her new baby, enjoying a coffee in the sun at Starbucks in Mission Bay here in Auckland (at least Lucy was drinking coffee - not sure about the baby)! Cool! Perhaps she was redeeming the same FREE STARBUCKS COFFEE COUPON that I found in the paper last week!! ha! Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:18:30 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Deleted Joni (NJC) P.S. Celebrity sighting (about 3 weeks ago)! Lucy Lawless (Xena, Warrior Princess) and her new baby, enjoying a coffee in the sun at Starbucks in Mission Bay here in Auckland (at least Lucy was drinking coffee - not sure about the baby)! Cool! Perhaps she was redeeming the same FREE STARBUCKS COFFEE COUPON that I found in the paper last week!! ha! Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:31:17 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: BSN featured on barnesandnoble.com Welcome Page FYI: BSN is featured on the Welcome Page of barnesandnoble.com today. Click on: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/index.asp?sourceid=00069370210494076428&bfdate=02-14-2000+13:44:44 and scroll down the page a bit to a pic. of a smoking Joni Under IN MUSIC Portrait of an Artist. On a fun note (pun intended): I was running thru the Carson Pirie Scott store on Saturday when Joni's voice came over the speakers singing Yellow Taxi. That's two weeks in a row I've heard Joni in a store! Laura **FREE STUFF** below: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Know a year 2000 baby? Harlem Globetrotters Welcome Millenium Babies with a Lifetime Pass to their games!! You will need to fill out an online form and mail them a copy of the baby's birth announcement. http://www.harlemglobetrotters.com/noflash/hot_baby2000.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Never pay too much for medication again! Many major drug companies provide free or low-cost medication, but rarely if ever publicize the programs. Here's an A-Z listing of drugs that are available to qualified (and you don't have to be poor to qualify!!) patients for free or at a very low cost directly from the manufacturer. Go to: http://www.institute-dc.org and check out "Free & Low Cost Prescription Drugs" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Register at: http://www.hoopstv.com/index.cfm for a free T-Shirt (good for cleaning scratched CD's!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:56:38 EST From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's picture frames- sorry long winded... I've always been curious about joni's framing. I don't recall that her earlier works- around WTRF time period- ever showed the frame. These 19th C. gilt conceits that she's been using on her paintings as of late, as well as the gorgeous patinated wood frames, do seem a deliberate choice on her part to emulate what we see in galleries and collections of impressionist/post impressionist works. I think though, she means well by it! framing is expensive. gilt framing is VERY expensive. I DOUBT joni does it herself. usually you paint a picture first- the image dictates the canvas size which in turn dictates the frame size. RARELY is it the other way around- finding a frame in a thriftshop than filling it with a painting. I think it would be rare to find those kind of frames in a thrift shop anyway.. an antique yes. I thinking back to my art history lessons. Artist-made frames are a more recent phenomena... Bonnard's frames are many times integral to his pieces. many of the pre-raphaelites as well. The 'arts and crafts' movements throughout europe and america emphasized the craft of the painting and frame- often with glorious results! the impressionist/post impressionist probably didn't frame their work as a matter of course. But the images of the salons of those periods do show works framed- often in gilded convections! As well- there's a famous photo of Mrs. Potter Palmer's bedroom here in chicago. way back when- when Mrs. P and her friends decided that chicago NEEDED A MUSEUM- they, with Mary Cassats help- went to paris and bought tons of work from the impressionist painters. In this photo- the canvases are stacked up under the bed and against every wall and piece and furniture- waiting for a museum to be built, and waiting to be framed. The fact that joni often reproduces the images with the frame is an important statement on her part. Perhaps it's to give them a weight in the viewers eye that they are not just simply illustrations for the liners notes, but independent works in their own right? I find them charming as well- a visual pun in the same way that she draw's from painted sources- v.g. self portrait, matisse's dancing figures.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:06:10 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC In a message dated 2/14/00 7:21:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: << I think it essentially had the misfortune to be released at the same time as her notorious "Sex" book, which caused an almighty backlash here in the UK. >> i watched madonna's interview on vh1 and they had on the show a bunch of her friends and producers and none of them felt the sex book was a good thing. it was unanimous among her close allies interviewed that they all wished she had skipped that stop on the road. pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:06:24 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review >The craggy alto on "Both Sides Now"... is so >changed from the sweetly yodeling folk soprano of her earliest >albums that >it hardly seems possible the two sounds could have come from the >same >body." You must admit, that is TRULY bitchy writing - which is worse, a "craggy" alto, or a "sweetly yodeling folk soprano"? The guy has insulted Joni at both ends of the age spectrum. I have to admit, though, when I read stuff like this, even though it makes me kind of angry, I just have to laugh because the language is just so weird and silly! Don't you think critics are often just bitter wannabes? Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:31:24 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: FW: BSN NY Times Review I was saying to Eric (off-list) that I seldom read the work of critics and for the most part don't invest anything they say with any worth at all. Hypocritically, when they something nice about Joan (yes, I always read the reviews of Joan's work - it's not exactly a full time occupation :-) ) I'm pleased, especially if it is to the point and reads like it's informed. What made me cross about the referenced review is that it began with this stupid 'oh-my-gawd-what-happened-to-her-voice' crap and the pointless comparison with the voice from earlier work. I suppose some critics are bitter wannabes, it's not something I think about, but reviewers of this person's supposed calibre and 'influence' should at the very least adopt a less superficial and futile position when approaching their subjects. Someone else said in another post that 'lightening up' is recommended on this matter. I have to agree...:-)...I'll try. From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review >The craggy alto on "Both Sides Now"... is so >changed from the sweetly yodeling folk soprano of her earliest >albums that >it hardly seems possible the two sounds could have come from the >same >body." You must admit, that is TRULY bitchy writing - which is worse, a "craggy" alto, or a "sweetly yodeling folk soprano"? The guy has insulted Joni at both ends of the age spectrum. I have to admit, though, when I read stuff like this, even though it makes me kind of angry, I just have to laugh because the language is just so weird and silly! Don't you think critics are often just bitter wannabes? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:34:21 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Madonna? Any of the posts I sent, and any that responded to mine, DID include NJC. >From: Johnwe2@aol.com >Reply-To: Johnwe2@aol.com >To: Joni@smoe.org >Subject: Madonna? >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:43:31 EST > > When did this become the Madonna discussion list? Please don't forget >NJC ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:40:06 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: FW: BSN NY Times Review Les writes: I was further stunned that this critic was supposed to be a 'fan' of JM sponsoring her induction to the RNR Hall of Fame (....like Big F'g Deal, her stature has never been contingent upon 'peer' approval - perhaps it's just as well.). I'd have assumed if the man was such a fan of the work of JM he'd have somehow, I don't know, assimilated the fact that JM has aged and matured with all that that brings to a person and thereby gloried in thefact. With friends like these, who needs enemies? Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:54:00 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Kirk Gray Subject: Joni's "God" notes hi everyone i've been thinking a lot about what joni says in one of the interviews about BSN (can't remember which) -- that she used to be awed and humbled hearing ella fitzgerald "have god come in" (paraphrasing here) to a few of her notes in "at last." it made me think about that phrase -- about which notes joni might have heard that happen in -- and then about how she would go about interpreting those notes in her own version. it struck me that this album is not only a "tribute" to her love for these songs (as i'd been thinking about it so far) but also a very challenging project -- and probably a daunting one, for joni. to try to sing these songs -- reinterpret them (well, that's what they are made for, i realize) -- but also, to call our attention to the very genius of the versions she loved. it makes me really really respect her work in BSN. also, i just love the idea (perhaps in a more secular way) of god bursting through a few notes -- made me start thinking of which of joni's "notes" i love especially. any thoughts? as i listen to "Taming the Tiger" now (in honor of all this talk about the paintings -- and the recent interview where she trashes girly guile etc etc music) i was stilled and made happy by the sheer sound of the three notes sung (in vocal harmony,i guess) in the phrase "farm boys' eyes" -- gives that phrase a wonderful, burnished kind of quality -- just perfect, really. there must be dozens of these little treasures in her music -- like secret jokes almost -- parts i look forward to that i wonder if i'm the only one to hear them (not likely with this crowd, i know!). - -- emily NP: "Taming the Tiger," TTT PS: two other random thoughts -- i've found that TTT is a nice "antidote" or "chaser" to the lush BSN. found i crave "lead balloon" and the anger in "taming the tiger" after hearing joni espouse so much love, love, love. PPS: re: the "national" interview -- i think it's perfectly right that joni gets to be crabby and grouchy and prickly in interviews regarding BSN. i love the juxtaposition of that lush, otherworldly gorgeous music and her very real, very human, very down-to-earth bitching. don't ever change, joni! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 06:53:54 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: BSN NY Times Review Hi all, Catherine wrote: > You must admit, that is TRULY bitchy writing - which is worse, > a "craggy" alto, or a "sweetly yodeling folk soprano"? > The guy has insulted Joni at both ends of the age spectrum....... OK, List, here's the situation: 1. We have a record company that lied to us on the Internet advertising. 2. That same record company screwed up big-time on shipping. 3. That same record company now says they are back-ordered. 4. Hundreds of Joni Mitchell fans cannot get her new album. 5. Record reviewers are insulting Joni at "both ends of the age spectrum." 6. Record store weenies delete her other works from the computer catalog. Something is wrong here people! We must unite! What can we do? Surely we can join forces and pool our resources and muster our contacts and come up with a creative solution to end this crisis situation. Hey, someone took down e-trade.com last week. C'mon, people, we can do better than that! Atlas is shrugging here!!!! Should we take out reprise.com? Is there some way we can cancel every single subscription to the New York Times? Surely we can cripple some major government unit to make a statement? Or stage a sit-down strike until it's resolved (someplace warm for Catgirl, of course)? And, while we're at it, let's lobby to make it illegal to own or transport any recorded product by Gloria Estefan. We must synchronize our watches and reconnoiter or something like that. Whatever John Wayne would do! We must seek revenge! I hereby volunteer for active duty. I can't let these perfectly good nicotine withdrawal symptoms go to waste! Regards, Harper (child of the 70s) Lou Thanks for all your posts regarding my tribulations on quitting smoking. My psychologist tells me it's normal to have bad withdrawal symptoms after smoking for 30 years, but he had a problem with the backwards "Ghengis Lives" tattoo across my forehead. He said it wasn't right to do that. I explained that it had to be backwards so people can read it in their rear view mirrors as I'm hunting them down. So he upped my medication again. Boy that Tony Orlando and Dawn are something, aren't they? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:57:38 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Critics...(njc) Hey... Sometimes I think critics are folks who couldn't act, paint, sing, write a song or make a movie to save their soul- and it just pisses them off... (or would it be worse if they could???) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:21:36 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Larry Klein Zoob takes me to task ... > 'The album would be a programmatic suite documenting > a relationship from > initial flirtation through optimistic consumation, > metamorphosing into > disillisionment, ironic despair, and finally > resolving in the philosophical > overview of acceptance and the probability of the > cycle repeating itself.' > If I had it to do over again ... I'd try not to sound like such a pompous dumb-ass. I'm well rebuked. > Okay so DED is a little *too* modern.... but it's an > amazing sound. I should, in all fairness, remind you that Mr. Dolby programmed the synths and Ms. Mitchell played them. Now color me crazy, but I think that might have just a little more to do with the sound of DED than I did. But hey, I'll take even left-handed compliments anywhere I can get 'em around here! Larry Klein ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:27:47 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni's "God" notes Emily muses: >also, i just love the idea (perhaps in a more secular way) of >god bursting through a few notes -- made me start thinking of >which of joni's "notes" i love especially. any thoughts? > Here's a few that do it for me: the way her voice goes on "I thought of you, I thought of you, dreamer" (Impossible dreamer); "What a pocket of heavenly grace" (Love puts on a new face); many too numerous to mention in "Mingus" (this is a recent acquisition for me so it's still new, and Jaysus, do I love it!); , "vast and bleak and godforsaken" (Paprika plains) That's just a few - you know, there may be more... Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:28:16 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's picture frames In a message dated 2/15/2000 3:03:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << >Sorry, I don't know who wrote this: >> I showed the pictures to a painter-friend of mine and the first thing she >> said was, "well, the frames alone explain it all". I think it might have been Debra Shea? >I'd call it Joni's personal taste in picture frames, and that's about it. >> Marian, No, I wrote that. But I think Debra (?) elaborated on how the frame is way too ornate for the paintings and draws ones eyes away from the work. It emphasizes the "decoration" aspect of the work, IMO, and suggests her borrowing the style of the Impressionists. And there was a comment about why the frames were included in the repros. Your point about the painters using the frame as part of the paintings themselves is interesting and had been done again later, with some modernists. But I just don't feel that this was Joni's intention. To me, it's just overkill. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:36:57 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Larry Klein >Zoob takes me to task ... > > > 'The album would be a programmatic suite documenting > > a relationship from > > initial flirtation through optimistic consumation, > > metamorphosing into > > disillisionment, ironic despair, and finally > > resolving in the philosophical > > overview of acceptance and the probability of the > > cycle repeating itself.' > > >If I had it to do over again ... I'd try not to sound >like such a pompous dumb-ass. I'm well rebuked. Very funny, Lar. You don't fool *me* for one itsy-bitsy minute. You and Joni were pissed when you wrote that blurb and you were killing yourselves laughing, weren't you? Some PR-type told you you had to write some kind of an intro because they figured the unwashed masses wouldn't figure it out from the music, so you got hold of one of those bullshit bingo cards, or one of those thingies where you've got a string of pompous-sounding adjectives in 3 columns and you just threw darts at 'em so, no matter which ones you pick, they *sound* like they mean something but it's all just bafflegab intended to baffle the brains of us slack-jawed yokels who think *something must be said* to explain this all to us, or we just wouldn't get it... It's true, isn't it? Yeah... I thought so. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:47:50 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Joni's "God" notes Good thread, here... Joni Mitchell has a lot of moments when God bursts through in her notes. "Although I speak of tongues and men and angels..." From "Love," that first line is glorious. "Wanna write you a love letter..." From "All I Want," another chill-bump line. And more!! Probably the best set of notes I ever encountered is on Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. However, I don't know if it's a "God note" because the feeling came from farther down. I think I shared this before... The first time I heard Joni purr the second "Cotton Avenue," I had a very noticeable male response. Prominently so. First and only time any song or performance ever did that to me. Along with that one-of-a-kind experience, I must say that Joni has more "God notes" than any other performer. My, it's getting warm in here.... Harper Lou - -----Original Message----- From: Catherine McKay [mailto:cateri@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 10:28 AM To: ekg200@is5.nyu.edu; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Joni's "God" notes Emily muses: >also, i just love the idea (perhaps in a more secular way) of >god bursting through a few notes -- made me start thinking of >which of joni's "notes" i love especially. any thoughts? > Here's a few that do it for me: the way her voice goes on "I thought of you, I thought of you, dreamer" (Impossible dreamer); "What a pocket of heavenly grace" (Love puts on a new face); many too numerous to mention in "Mingus" (this is a recent acquisition for me so it's still new, and Jaysus, do I love it!); , "vast and bleak and godforsaken" (Paprika plains) That's just a few - you know, there may be more... Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:29:20 -0600 (CST) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: NJC Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC _Erotica_ is easily Maddy's most brilliant hour. I think I have a post around here somewhere extolling its virtues. If I find it I will forward it. Best Madonna albums, in order: _Erotica_, _Like a Prayer_, _Madonna_, _Ray of Light_ etc etc etc - --Michael - ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Desire no more what you already possess. You are already free." - --Me'Shell NdegeOcello, "God Shiva" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 02:26:27 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:13:09 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review > I am not a hateful, ugly, brainless person, Debra. I didn't think Debra was calling you ugly and brainless but what you wrote-there is a difference. > This is the type of ageism I don't see how this is agism. I don't think Debra's opinion(or mine as I agree) stems from agism. Ageing is another word for deterioration. It happens to us all, if we live long enough to age. Some people are very lucky and they keep their voice as they age. I don't think anyone is expecting Joni to sound like she did on Blue. Actually she hasn't sounded like that since HOSL! Just because I notice her voice is deteriorating does not make me a bad person nor does it mean i don't like the voice she has now. As I hear it on TI and TTT and NRH, I love it. but jump down my throat every time I express a strong opinion? There is a big difference in expressing a strong opinion and being downright rude and offensive. To describe a critic that you disagreed with as a pederast was disgusting.Someone can have a differing opinon from yours without making either one of you a bad person. When I was younger I used to feel quit hurt if someone rubbished Joni or Carly. Now it doesn't bother me at all. One because I no longer tie up my taste with my self esteem so someone knocking someone I love I no longer interpret as them knocking me. Even if they are knocking me (or my taste) so what? I know me better! Also taste cannot be qualified. What you like/love and what others like/love will always throw up differences, if not we wouldn't have so much variety. As for critics, well i have never understood the need for them, tho it must be great to earn one's living shooting your mouth off! ;-) If you love BSN, great. Why give a shit what anyone else thinks? I don't know what i think about BSN as I haven't heard it. Maybe I will love it. Maybe not. But it will be me who decides. So carry on loving Joni, don't get so hurt as those who criticise her that you have to lash out. Enjoy Joni. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:31:28 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Madonna? (still NJC) > >From: Johnwe2@aol.com > >Reply-To: Johnwe2@aol.com > >To: Joni@smoe.org > >Subject: Madonna? > >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:43:31 EST > > > > When did this become the Madonna discussion > list? Please don't forget > >NJC I think that was right around the time that this became the Politically Correct Express Sexual Preference Framers Guild Critic Haters Jefferson Airplane Nillson Ani DiFranco Dar Williams Lauyn Hill Bruce Cockburn Plug Of The Week Straight Outing Lucinda Williams CSNY Melissa's Baby Father Guitar Shapes Alternate Tuning Jonatha Brooke discussion list. ;-) Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:54:35 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: Madonna? (still NJC) Touché, Mr. Klein! > > > > When did this become the Madonna discussion > list? Please don't forget > >NJC I think that was right around the time that this became the Politically Correct Express Sexual Preference Framers Guild Critic Haters Jefferson Airplane Nillson Ani DiFranco Dar Williams Lauyn Hill Bruce Cockburn Plug Of The Week Straight Outing Lucinda Williams CSNY Melissa's Baby Father Guitar Shapes Alternate Tuning Jonatha Brooke discussion list. ;-) Don Rowe ===== "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:06:39 -0600 From: "Pitassi, Mary" Subject: Charles Schulz / "The grandfather clock song" (NJC) Thanks, Lance A. Michel, for the post about the passing of Charles M. Schulz, who created the "Peanuts" comic strip and drew it for 50 years. When I first heard that Schulz had died only hours before his last "Peanuts" strip appeared in newspapers world-wide, though, I couldn't help but think of a beautiful but haunting song my mother used to sing to me and my siblings when we were young children. In the song, a man built (or acquired) a beautiful clock when he was still quite a young man. And, as the years went by, the clock proved to be a constant companion through all the events, large and small, of his long and very full life, faithfully keeping time for many, many years without missing a beat. However, "the clock stopped, never to start again when the old man died." One could not survive without the other. Schulz, too, seemed inextricably linked to his creation. I think I will always remember him now when I recall this song. May he rest in peace. Mary P. P.S. If any JMDLers know which song I'm referring to and could send me the words, I'd greatly appreciate it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:34:24 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: RE: BSN NY Times Review NJC <> Maybe all we need to do is properly lower our expectations! If we expect items to be backordered, beat to hell, poorly reviwed, sold by idiotic sales clerks, then things will go pretty much as expected, and if they go better, then it's a pleasant surprise! Bob NP: Oasis, "Stand By Me" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:44:09 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: RE: Joni's "God" notes <> In "Same Situation",..."Love is gone"... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:50:13 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: Deleted "Blue" on CD Databases and their compilers (whether digital or flesh and blood) routinely lie (though not necessarily maliciously). People interrogating databases don't always use their heads (or sometimes even their eyes). Record companies etc. reissue in peculiar ways (though thankfully not like the publishing industry, who can't keep an author's books in print in one edition for long enough for most people to get a uniform set, and change covers incessantly to fit in with the latest releases). But worse of all, some retail staff can't admit that the customer may know more than they do, or feel that it's irrelevant. Despite the effects on the wallet, I always feel it's worthwhile boycotting rudeness or ignorance in favour of dealing with people who know and love what they're selling (but then I'm biased). End of (minor) rant. David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:55:32 -0800 From: "rick novosel" Subject: Re: Charles Schulz / "The grandfather clock song" (NJC) Mary requests > If any JMDLers know which song I'm referring to and could send me the > words, I'd greatly appreciate it. > The song is called "My Grandfather"s Clock" and is often played to kind of a tick-tocky rhythm so I've never thought of it as exactly beautiful but I agree the feeling of it fits the life of Charles Schultz very well. I was saddened by Schultz's death but he apparently said about retirement something along the lines of "If I retired I wouldn't have anything to live for." Schultz was totally responsible for every Peanuts strip from the ideas to the final inking and yet he was very insecure about the value of his work, never quite believing people really enjoyed it. The images of Charlie Brown lying in bed wondering if anyone hears him when he asks his worried questions into the dark night are very much a reflection of Schultz's own feelings about life. He also wrote something like "No one should ever get the idea that what I do is Great Art. I just draw funny pictures." I'll miss him and the Peanuts gang greatly. Here's as much as I can recall: My Grandfather"s Clock was too large for the shelf So it stood ninety years on the floor. It was taller by half than the old man himself Though it weighed not a penny-weight more. La la la la la la on the day that he was born And la la la la la la la laaa But it stopped short never to run again When the old man died. Hope that triggers enough memories for you to come up with the rest of the words. All good things Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:00:04 -0800 From: "rick novosel" Subject: Re: Joni's "God" notes > <> From All I Want: "And I wanna shine like the sun" Rick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:02:14 -0500 From: "cassy" Subject: Tax Free Speaking of "God" notes, "Tax Free" one of my personal favorites deals with an entirely different perspective on religion and "God's hired hands." Rod Steiger does an excellent job as the "preacher" cassy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:56:34 -0500 From: "Loren Carter" Subject: Re: Charles Schulz / "The grandfather clock song" (NJC) Mary, I also remember that story from my youth, but old age has wiped the specifics from my mind. Friday evening we all watched a Charles Shultz tribute special on TV. Sunday morning I remembered that today would be the last Peanuts strip. As I started to flip open the paper, I read that he had passed away the night before. I started to read the strip to my wife and had to stop, and could not continue. The Peanuts gang has been with me my whole life and I'm gonna miss them. Sadly, my son will not get the benefit of their teachings, wisdom, and witticisms. Loren..... NP....Good Grief....nothing (but Ican "hear" Linus and his variations of Jingle Bells on the piano in my mind) "Pitassi, Mary" on 02/15/2000 12:06:39 PM Please respond to "Pitassi, Mary" To: "'joni@smoe.org'" cc: "'nabalom@sirius.com'" (bcc: Loren Carter/Maryland/United_States/Sylvan Learning Systems/US) Subject: Charles Schulz / "The grandfather clock song" (NJC) Thanks, Lance A. Michel, for the post about the passing of Charles M. Schulz, who created the "Peanuts" comic strip and drew it for 50 years. When I first heard that Schulz had died only hours before his last "Peanuts" strip appeared in newspapers world-wide, though, I couldn't help but think of a beautiful but haunting song my mother used to sing to me and my siblings when we were young children. In the song, a man built (or acquired) a beautiful clock when he was still quite a young man. And, as the years went by, the clock proved to be a constant companion through all the events, large and small, of his long and very full life, faithfully keeping time for many, many years without missing a beat. However, "the clock stopped, never to start again when the old man died." One could not survive without the other. Schulz, too, seemed inextricably linked to his creation. I think I will always remember him now when I recall this song. May he rest in peace. Mary P. P.S. If any JMDLers know which song I'm referring to and could send me the words, I'd greatly appreciate it. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #95 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?