From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #93 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, February 14 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 093 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC ["Reuben Bell" ] Re: Both Sides Later [Martin Giles ] Re: Both Sides Later. [Martin Giles ] Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC ["Matthew Hall" ] Valentine's Both Sides Now Blessing! [KCooper984@aol.com] joni's paintings [Siresorrow@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #64 [Kate ] Deleted Joni [Martin Giles ] Re: Deleted Joni ["Catherine McKay" ] BSN*RE issue date [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC ["Catherine McKay" ] Re: BSN NY Times Review ["Eric Taylor" ] RE: A Case Of Joni and straight Joni fans [Louis Lynch ] BSN Reviews Overview [Bounced Message ] Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC [AzeemAK@aol.com] Croz and Joan ["Michael Paz" ] Larry Klein ["Jamie Zubairi" ] Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC ["Matthew Hall" ] RE: Deleted Joni ["Chris Marshall" ] Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC [Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC Bob says: >fwiw, the cover and feature story for this ish is Madonna. so, here's my rhetorical question of the day - does anyone apart from me, wonder why Madonna bothered to re-do "American Pie"? a) why bother to begin with b) if you're going to bother, could you put a little life into it? Yeesh. Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:36:51 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: BSN review: Chicago Sun-Times > Joni Mitchell plays favorites on new album > February 8, 2000 > RECORD REVIEW BY LLOYD SACHS > > Joni wouldn't be Joni if she weren't pitching a high concept. I love this sentence. It's very true and for some mysterious reason it makes me LOL. Thanks, Deb, for posting this review. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:42:03 PST From: "Reuben Bell" Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC It is featured in the movie that she and Rupert Everett are promoting on the cover of this month's VFair. I don't remember the title... >From: "Catherine McKay" >Reply-To: "Catherine McKay" >To: SCJoniGuy@aol.com, Joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:25:00 GMT > >Bob says: >>fwiw, the cover and feature story for this ish is Madonna. > >so, here's my rhetorical question of the day - does anyone apart from me, >wonder why Madonna bothered to re-do "American Pie"? a) why bother to >begin >with b) if you're going to bother, could you put a little life into it? > >Yeesh. > > >Catherine (in Toronto) >cateri@hotmail.com > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:45:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Jill (cactustree@excite.com)" Subject: BSN Review - LI Newsday Since I think I'm the only Long Islander here [concert buddy, Kenny G. - Queens doesn't count!], I decided to break my very long lurking streak to share this review from Newsday 2/13.... Jill - - - still trying to get an undamaged copy after 2 tries from CDNOW, but really enjoying the non-skipping songs so far!! ON THE RECORD JAZZ By GENE SEYMOUR. STAFF WRITER JONI MITCHELL 'Both Sides Now' (Reprise) One thing to make clear at the outset: Unlike other pop-rock divas who dip their toes into the jazz and classic standards pool, Joni Mitchell is no dilettante. Even the most casual survey of Mitchell's vast recorded output by the not-so-casual jazz fan would reveal an insurgent, exploratory spirit very much at home with such skittish romantics as Miles Davis, Lester Young or Gerry Mulligan. It wouldn't be much of a stretch, for instance, to place her 1976 album "Hejira" among the fusion jazz classics of the decade. And certainly no pop star of Mitchell's magnitude has since taken the kind of dare that her 1979 homage "Mingus" represented at the time. Skeptics need to hear her stunning guest turn two years ago on Herbie Hancock's "Gershwin's World" (Verve), on which she sang "The Man I Love" and "Summertime" with such depth and subtle inventiveness that many couldn't believe it was really Joni Mitchell. (Some guessed Shirley Horn. Still others said hesitantly, "Carmen McRae?") Clearly, her work here marked a considerable distance from her mischievous mid-1970s dabbling with such Lambert, Hendricks and Ross artifacts as "Twisted" and "Centerpiece." When during a recent tour with Bob Dylan, Mitchell sneaked in such standards as "Comes Love" along with her own tunes, the prospect of a full album of Mitchell and classic pop became tantalizingly visible. That album, "Both Sides Now," makes a limited-edition appearance this month before going nationwide in March. It's a mixed blessing at best. The good news is that Mitchell's voice - ripe, rich and burnished to a mahogany glow - - wraps itself around each of these familiar compositions (including two of her own, title track included) with worldly confidence and solicitous intelligence. The bad news is that the strings-brass-and-rhythm arrangements are so oppressive throughout that they all but smother her to death. Ask anyone who knows me and they'll tell you I'm as much a sucker for a luscious, pretty string arrangement as any melancholy baby. And it wouldn't have been a bad thing for "Both Sides Now" to carry a few orchestrated pieces here and there. But there seems something calculated in the omnipresence of these thick, glossy arrangements - almost as if those assembling the album (including Mitchell herself?) sought to avoid the kind of spare, small-group context that would provide genuine risk and, consequently, true revelation. The choice to make "Both Sides Now" as plush and comfortable as a luxury automobile shows its defects from the start with "You're My Thrill." Those who already own 1959's "Lady in Satin," Billie Holiday's poignant last testament, will recognize the keynote nod to Lady Day - especially in Mitchell's own brittle and angular approach to the lyrics. But while it's obvious Mitchell sounds much better than a diminished and dying Holiday, it's just as obvious that the effort to honor the latter's memory blunts dramatic impact; worse, it almost sounds as if Mitchell is straining at the outset to stand as one with Billie Legend. You can feel the whole album exhale with the next track, "At Last." Here is where Mitchell's rueful maturity and command of phrasing tap unsuspecting fans on both sides of the jazz-pop divide and make their eyes grow big. Her writerly sensibility, more highly evolved than most singers at any level of the pop pyramid, confronts the familiar lyrics with levelheaded tenderness. For those unabashed Mitchell fans, who wouldn't know Harold Arlen from Harry James, hearing her late-period voice (coarsened by time, but still capable of limpid sound) convey the songs on this album will be an education. That is, whenever the orchestra keeps out of her way. Sometimes it does, gratifyingly so on the aforementioned "Comes Love" - which melds so well with Mitchell's whisky-sour approach to conventional romance that you'd think she'd written it in 1978, instead of Lew Brown, Sammy Shear and Charles Tobias in 1939. But for all the attempts to make these arrangements sound like those which so comfortably framed the most resonant work by Reprise's founder Frank Sinatra, they, too, often sound like one of Max Steiner's 1940s film scores on steroids. The orchestra doesn't just want to accentuate these songs. It wants to conquer and plunder them like a colonial armada. And Mitchell isn't the only one who almost gets swamped. Some of her old buddies, notably Hancock on piano, Mark Isham on trumpet and Wayne Shorter on reeds, contribute graceful solos that manage to elbow their way to your pummeled senses through thickets of strings and brass. Their presence only makes you wish that this grandiose project had been pared down to them, a bass, a trap set and Mitchell herself. OK, so maybe "A Case of You," the other Mitchell original on the disc, wouldn't have sounded markedly different from its original 1971 incarnation on "Blue." It still would have been more interesting than the gaudy wrapping applied here. For all my complaints, I truly hope "Both Sides Now" succeeds, for no other reason than it'll embolden her to try it again with more esoteric material from the pop songbook - and with a more minimalist setting. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:48:39 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Both Sides, Later Frugal Mary said.. > > So I'll be making a stop to The Exclusive Company, Madison's best everyday- > discount CD store, on my way home from work on Tuesday, March 21. I'm > guessing, and hoping, that the waiting may even make that first listen a > little sweeter. > > Mary P., > the essence of frugality these days in > Madison, WI, USA. And I'll be getting the regular version of BSN as soon as it gets released over here in the UK. By the way - does anyone know when that is? atb, Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:37:20 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Both Sides Later I upset Fred (and probably others) on Friday with my use of the word 'superfluous'. I used it in the body of my post, referring to how I tend to prefer Joni when the arrangement is 'stripped down' to the minimum. This doesn't mean that I necessarily dislike any of her more complex arrangements, just that I get more of that goose bump thing from the more direct stuff. When I enquired in my PS about the producers, arrangers etc, I was taking the mickey out of myself a little by using the word again. (Hence the inserted emoticon). I hope that the fact that I asked the question shows that I am interested in them. Fred informed.. > The producers? You might have heard of them ... Joni Mitchell and Larry > Klein. Far from superfluous (insert emoticon here) > > Also far from superfluous, the arranger is Vince Mendoza, who is a brilliant > composer in his own right, and equally brilliant arranger who has worked with > many great jazz artists, including Peter Erskine, John Scofield, Ralph > Towner, and The YellowJackets. Mendoza's own albums are fantastic, > particularly Start Here and his most recent, Epiphany, an album of his > compositions arranged for orchestra (London Symphony) and small jazz group > (including Peter Erskine), which was nominated for a Grammy this year. > > And the jazz artists on BSN are nothing short of some of the greatest the > music has ever known: Wayne Shorter (sax), Herbie Hancock (piano), Peter > Erskine (drums), and Mark Isham (trumpet). > > As you can probably tell, I really disagree with the notion that the > orchestral arrangements are mere window dressing ... they are integral, part > and parcel of the musical statement, they are what this record is > about.... > Sure, she could do it alone with a guitar, but that would be a different > statement ... equally valid but not ipso facto superior. Fred, you are right. As I said, I haven't heard the album yet. I'm sure that there isn't one note in there that isn't there for a very good reason, but again - I was simply expressing 'a preference for' simplicity in my appreciation of Joni's music. I will be buying the album, and you'll be the first to know if I decide to eat my hat. atb, Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:18:33 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Re: Both Sides Later. Hi Julius. Hey, one thing's for certain, if you want to be sure of being responded to on the list, just hint that you don't like some part of Joni's music!! Seriously though, I might have given the impression that I won't like BSN when I hear it. This isn't true. I probably will. With Joni, my appreciation goes from extreme, undying bottomless love, to liking quite a lot. With only one or two exceptions, I don't dislike anything of hers. Which for me, marks her out from every other artist I've ever heard. Nor am I generally someone who doesn't like complex or 'difficult' music. Other than with her SIQUOMBness, I very much like big, and/or complex arrangements. My musical taste takes in artists from Bach to Bjork, and Shostakovich to Frank Zappa. I'm trying to fathom this contradiction in myself, and I think it might be something to do with the fact that Joni's lyrics have so much more to give than almost any other artist I know. (Actually, ANY other artist that I know). It's as if her words supply all the complexity and depth that I need. When all's said and done - I'm quite prepared to find a knew way of loving Joni when I get BSN. As I said to Fred, the sound of me crunching through my hat may well be echoing across the internet in a month or so's time. atb Martin. JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > > First things first: thanks for the catchy subject line, Martin. That > tickles. Very clever indeed. Really. > > And you had me going for a spell with sound logic on the 'limited edition' > thing. Form should follow function if you ask me. On this we concur. > > But we part ways on your narrow interpretation of what is lovable in her > music. I've been immersing myself in her lyrical, musical and emotional > complexity. Plus, evolution is real...let's get used to it. "Repetition > without examination is death" someone said across these wires. Word. > > -Julius > > Martin writes: > > << I think the reason for this is that I've come to love Joni most when the > orchestration in her music is simple. Preferably just her and her > guitar, but a small band is fine. For instance her rendition of Just > Like This Train on the PWWAM video is for me a thousand times better > than the original studio/band version. Now she has surrounded herself > with big band and orchestra and it's going in the wrong direction for > me. >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:55:27 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC > so, here's my rhetorical question of the day - does anyone apart from me, > wonder why Madonna bothered to re-do "American Pie"? a) why bother to begin > with b) if you're going to bother, could you put a little life into it? > > Yeesh. >Catherine (in Toronto) Well, the movie is called 'The Next Best Thing and actually Rupert Everrett convinced her to cover 'American Pie' to provide some music to accompany the scene of his close friend's funeral. I think that her version is appropriately melancholy considering the subject of both the film and the lyrics, and she should be commended for not taking the easiest and most commercial option of speeding up the tempo and whacking a fat dance beat behind it. oops i know you didn't want an answer but... Matthew NP: Hejira - Amelia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:00:19 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: siquomb thank you regarding the siquomb thing ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:14:33 EST From: KCooper984@aol.com Subject: Valentine's Both Sides Now Blessing! Hi Everyone! I just got a Happy Valentine's Day gift!!!!!!!!!!!! My Both Sides Now came today....and guess what????? It's FINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel so blessed! I'm so thankful!! I've just listened once through.....and am now starting up the second time.........I guess I felt all full of emotions listening......It's so hard to explain. So many feelings.. My eyes did fill. I think that especially A Case of You got to me because that has always been one of my favorite Joni songs. It's almost like Joni and I have grown up together........and now we are both looking at life from "both sides now." This reminds me of the Stormy Weather recording from AT&T. I recently just got Stormy Weather and have to say that I love this as well. I do hope that in the future that Joni continues recording her old songs with an orchestra... LOVE IT!!! LOVE IT!!! LOVE IT!!!!!!!! And as far as her art work goes.........Joni rules!!!! I don't care what any of you say!! ;-) Tsk! Tsk! Bob!!!! Paint by number!!!! No way! Happy Valentine's Day all!!! I Love you Joni!!! I LOVE BOTH SIDES NOW!!!!!!! Happy Listening, Sue Cooper NP: You're My Thrill ( Both Sides Now is my new thrill!!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:22:17 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: joni's paintings i like her paintings, as much as they reflect where she is in her music as they are attractive to look at. what i mean is that her ti paintings gogh with the music (pun intended). and her ttt paintings again, go with the music. they look like the songs sound. and, i even like the frames around the edges. but i'll tell you this: i don't like chain italian restraunts and i don't like food from gas stations and i don't like beer in the can. i just may be an art red neck. pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:38:20 -0700 From: Kate Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2000 #64 > I think it's time > that we were secure enough in our straightness that we > just let it play, come out to the world, put on DED at > full blast in the car with the windows down and drive > into the city. You do not know how liberating that can > be especially if you own one of them four-wheelers > with big honking tires. > > Robert Ha! Thanks for the image, Robert. And you're right. Many men have the attitude that Joni's music is "girl music", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. It's an attitude worth growing out of. Sorry, I don't know who wrote this: > I showed the pictures to a painter-friend of mine and the first thing she > said was, "well, the frames alone explain it all". Oh yeah, that explains everything. I'd call it Joni's personal taste in picture frames, and that's about it. Kate of the North ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:12:41 +0000 From: Martin Giles Subject: Deleted Joni Hi everyone. Had an odd experience at the weekend. I went into MVC in Harrow to get a copy of Blue on CD for a freind who needs an introduction to Joni. As usual, it wasn't in the racks. The only ever seem to have FTR, Hits and MOA. Nothing daunted, I went to the counter to order a copy, but the assistant looked it up and said, "I can get it for you on cassette, but it's been deleted on CD." Deleted? Blue? Surely not? Has anyone else found this? atb, Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:05:13 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Deleted Joni Martin queries: >Had an odd experience at the weekend. I went into MVC in Harrow to get a >copy of Blue on CD for a freind who needs an introduction to Joni. As >usual, it wasn't in the racks. The only ever seem to have FTR, Hits and >MOA. Nothing daunted, I went to the counter to order a copy, but the >assistant looked it up and said, "I can get it for you on cassette, but >it's been deleted on CD." > >Deleted? Blue? Surely not? Has anyone else found this? Not at all. Perhaps "deleted" as they understand it, but certainly available - you may have to order through an online service (such as CDNow) (Ignorant swine that work in these places, mumble, mumble.) And yet, I'm convinced that some of the better stores (the ones that carry things going beyond top 40 stuff) would likely have it... Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:04:24 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: BSN*RE issue date Martin Giles wrote: > And I'll be getting the regular version of BSN as soon as it gets > released over here in the UK. By the way - does anyone know when that > is? According to the billboard article, Mar 21 in the US, and Feb 28 elsewhere. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:07:25 GMT From: "Catherine McKay" Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC > > so, here's my rhetorical question of the day - does anyone apart from >me, > > wonder why Madonna bothered to re-do "American Pie"? a) why bother to >begin > > with b) if you're going to bother, could you put a little life into it? > > > > Yeesh. > >Well, the movie is called 'The Next Best Thing and actually Rupert Everrett >convinced her to cover 'American Pie' to provide some music to accompany >the >scene of his close friend's funeral. I think that her version is >appropriately melancholy considering the subject of both the film and the >lyrics, and she should be commended for not taking the easiest and most >commercial option of speeding up the tempo and whacking a fat dance beat >behind it. > >oops i know you didn't want an answer but... But you couldn't help yourself, could you, Matty dearest? Actually that is a BIG help - if it's a funeral in a film, that splains a whole lot of things - - here I thought Madonna was truly aiming at the Muzak market! Catherine (in Toronto) cateri@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:16:10 -0600 (CST) From: michael w yarbrough Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC Sorry to include all the text--my editor sucks and I'm in a hurry. I pretty much like the cover, of course. She does get credit for goingin neither an explicitly dancy or completely reverential direction. BUT I wish they had stuck with the original choice for the nostalgic funeral song: Patti Smith's "Easter." That would have been a cover worth dying for!!! - --Michael, never too fond of "American Pie" anyway - ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Desire no more what you already possess. You are already free." - --Me'Shell NdegeOcello, "God Shiva" On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Catherine McKay wrote: > > > so, here's my rhetorical question of the day - does anyone apart from > >me, > > > wonder why Madonna bothered to re-do "American Pie"? a) why bother to > >begin > > > with b) if you're going to bother, could you put a little life into it? > > > > > > Yeesh. > > > > >Well, the movie is called 'The Next Best Thing and actually Rupert Everrett > >convinced her to cover 'American Pie' to provide some music to accompany > >the > >scene of his close friend's funeral. I think that her version is > >appropriately melancholy considering the subject of both the film and the > >lyrics, and she should be commended for not taking the easiest and most > >commercial option of speeding up the tempo and whacking a fat dance beat > >behind it. > > > >oops i know you didn't want an answer but... > > But you couldn't help yourself, could you, Matty dearest? Actually that is > a BIG help - if it's a funeral in a film, that splains a whole lot of things > - here I thought Madonna was truly aiming at the Muzak market! > > Catherine (in Toronto) > cateri@hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:23:21 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Paintings...& Critics Hello All- I have to say that I think Joni's artwork has always been brilliant. I don't know jack about art, but I DO know what I like and I think she is way up there with all the greats. I have a weak spot for Monet, Gaugain, Van Gogh, and many others in the French Impressionist era, but then I have seen a couple of paintings that I liked in a Motel 6 (but then maybe I was just high at the time. A far as the critics go, I think alot of them tend to write in a bitter tone for whatever reason and if they have nothing but bad to say I always wonder why they invested the time or bothered in the first place. Then I also wonder why the critics rave for something like Ray of Light or the Lauren Hill thing and I just DON'T hear it (even tho I tried). Oh well "viva la diferencia". I have been listening to BSN almost non stop and I really like the arrangements, her voice is magnificent, and the song selection is superb and also unique. I think if the record company gets behind this and gets some promotional $$$ behind it, and a little hard work, she can pick up some new fans and get some decent sales out of it. I spoke with her management on the phone and gave a report on all the damaged CD's (which they had not heard about yet) and he was going to get ahold of Reprise and get back to me. I will also have another announcement at the beginning of next week regarding Joni info (and NO it's not that she is gonna be in New Orleans on Memorial Day weekend I WISH). Peace Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:29:59 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review Debra wrote: << Eric, I don't understand what you're so upset about and why you so hatefully dismiss this entire review and characterize the reviewer in such an ugly way. Throughout it, Holden makes many comments about the new-found emotional depth and power of Joni's voice. Joni's voice HAS deteriorated (so hate me for saying that if you choose to). She's really straining in some parts of BSN to get the sound out, which was very obvious even in my cursory listening. Now she's sometimes almost talking instead of singing. Compare that to her fluid vocal gymnastics when she was younger. The trade-off is a much richer, more emotional sound, and in various ways Holden emphasizes that and praises Joni throughout the review. I guess you think you're being enthusiastic, but your absolutist, all-or-nothing attitude is really ugly and brainless. (so hate me again) And why not complain about the NY Daily News review? That was much more negative than this one. >> It's funny, three people emailed me offlist expressing their complete agreement with my reaction to the NY Times Review. I am not a hateful, ugly, brainless person, Debra. What pissed me off so much was Holden's opening statement: "FEW contemporary voices have aged more shockingly than Joni Mitchell's.The craggy alto on "Both Sides Now"... is so changed from the sweetly yodeling folk soprano of her earliest albums that it hardly seems possible the two sounds could have come from the same body." This is the type of ageism typical of the American media. Joni is pushing 60 & for people to complain that she no longer sounds 20 is maddening! Having had more than a "cursory listening" of BSN I hear no "straining... to get the sound out. I don't "Compare that to her fluid vocal gymnastics when she was younger." & most importantly I don't consider Joni's older voice "shockingly craggy" or a "trade off." Our superficial pop culture equates aging with deterioration, especially when it comes to women. Joni's younger voice would sound ridiculous attempting the classics on BSN. IMO the new versions of A Case Of You & Both Sides Now are FAR superior to the originals in every way. This is the second time that the NYT has portrayed Joni as being over the hill (remember that extremely unflattering blow up they used in their review of TTT?). NYC is the bastion of youth-worship plaguing our world with anorexic chic. I pictured Joni crying reading that harsh review by a supposed fan. The NYT is one of the most influential newspapers on earth & Holden's ageist review will no doubt discourage many people from buying BSN. It is not hatred of insensitive reviewers, but rather my love of Joni's music, that motivates my occasional outbursts. One more thing: Why is it that listers rarely respond to my nice posts but jump down my throat every time I express a strong opinion? It really makes me want to unsubscribe sometimes. Lovingly, E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:12:20 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: A Case Of Joni and straight Joni fans Thanks to everyone for posting the complete text of various reviews of Both Sides Now. It's one of the best benefits of being on the list. Please keep sharing them. However, I am shocked at how vehemently some of you are responding to the critics. They are only critics! Their jobs require them to give their opinion about musical products. They have every right to toss around Joni's "latest golden egg," according to the rules of popular culture. Actually, I think the BSN reviews are surprisingly positive. Having followed Joni since the early days, I must say that this album has met with more favorable reviews than any since "Blue." My God, remember what they did to Mingus! Still anxious to receive my copy of BSN, I haven't found any review to be overly mean or harsh or even unjustifiable. Some of the responses from this list are much more vitriolic than anything the critics have said. At the same time, I find the list's emotional pitch about BSN a little reassuring. Recently, I had decided to stop entering discussions because I was weary of the attack-driven nature of the posts. And I was tired of being called names just for bringing up a counter opinion -- even my jests were attacked. As I explained to someone privately, I bowed out because I did not like the name-calling and inflammatory accusations on this "discussion" list. (And I hear other lists are even worse!) Seeing the treatment of reviewers (who are actually doing Joni a favor by publicizing her work instead of totally ignoring her), I feel a little better about some of the past responses I received for my posts. I now realize that it's just the nature of some of the people on the list. Like Joni, I guess we're a politically oriented, intelligent and way outspoken group. STRAIGHT GUYS DO LIKE JONI MITCHELL Also, I keep reading posts that imply that straight men don't like Joni. VERY WRONG!!! I don't believe it for a minute! As an ardent fan for decades, I have met a lot of straight men who love Joni Mitchell. All my (straight) musician friends love her to death. And I've played Joni Mitchell songs, at the request of the grooms, at three weddings. In fact, none of my gay friends care for her. Until I joined this list, I can honestly say that I had never met a gay man that liked Joni Mitchell. Wait a minute, am I in trouble again here? If my non-gay friends like Joni and my gay friends don't, does that make me a homophobe? Regards, Harper Lou By the way, for anyone who is interested in my nonsmoking adventure... After finding too many cars in the office parking lot with external pieces ripped off and strewn about, my coworkers recommended that I see a doctor. I'm now on medication, and everything is wonderful, I think Barney the dinosaur is really really cute, Oprah is really really wise, Britney Spears can sing really really pretty, and I'm starting to really really understand the poetry of e. e. cummings. So God bless you all.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:00:17 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Feeling Very Fortunate! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:29:00 -0800 (PST) From: mystery touch Got my copy of BSN from my fave local CD store... loved it, of course... decided that my lady could not live her life without her own copy... went back and bought the only other one the store had... gave it to her... much gratitude heaped upon me... and both copies are in superb condition without skips or blemishes... saw my words on Joni's site... Feeling pretty good about things these days! Hope everyone is well. Regards! Craig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:59:23 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: BSN Reviews Overview Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:16:17 -0800 (PST) From: Don Rowe Subject: BSN Reviews Overview I'm actually quite amazed at the favorable majority of reviews out for BSN. From the moment I first heard of the project, I fully expected Joni to be hoisted on a pittard for trying her hand at standards. Historically, critics look at efforts like this as tantamount to walking through sacred ground with muddy shoes -- but not so in Joni's case. It's good to see her getting consistently good press for this release.Even the NYTimes review, source of much tearing of hair and gnashing of teeth recently, seemed to me very even-handed and primarily favorable. Let's face it folks, Joni's voice now has more in common with Piaf's and Holliday's later recordings than it does Judy Collins or Lena Horne's. That the reviewer pointed it out seemed to me in no way mean-spirited. It also seems perfectly reasonable to me that an orchestrally arranged version of "A Case of You" could ring a bit funny in some ears. As for Joni carping during an interview ... like that's some kind of a fir! st??? If you want a rarity, find me an interview where Joni DOESN'T whine to one degree or another, and I'll be suitably impressed! Her interview style is far more paint-by-numbers than her actual paintings, really.Last but not least, since having a "presence" or "identity" in pop music these days seems to require weighing 700+ lbs. and dying from a heart attack in order to get noticed -- I'd prefer that Joni remain safely annonymous. Don Rowe "I would not bet against the development of a time machine. My opponent may have already built one ... and know the future." -- Stephen Hawking ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:57:16 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC In a message dated 14/02/00 18:28:02 GMT Standard Time, cateri@hotmail.com writes: << so, here's my rhetorical question of the day - does anyone apart from me, wonder why Madonna bothered to re-do "American Pie"? a) why bother to begin with b) if you're going to bother, could you put a little life into it? >> I don't expect much from this odd pairing. The reason I'm replying is that by some strange synchronicity I'm listening as I read this to Madonna's "Erotica", and wonder if I'm the only one who thinks it's great - even La Ciccone has virtually disowned it, but I think it's magnificent, with some fabulous grooves, pretty decent singing and - yes - some bloody good songs. And a wonderfully funny rap number called Did You Do It. Azeem in London NP: Madonna - Secret Garden ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:02:00 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Croz and Joan Hello Lists- Here is something I found in the latest Acoustic Guitar mag, that I thought you might enjoy. In a conversation about writing songs-- AG- And you wake up and write it all down? DC- Yeah. One of the big effects on my writing was {Joni} Mitchell telling me to write stuff down. She said. "David you throw away more good phrases in an afternoon than most people can come up with in a week. What's wrong with you, you brainless twit? Write your shit down!" And I learned from her that if you get even two words in a row that mean something, that make you feel something, you should write them down. So I do. Further down they talk about David and Joni writing Yvette in English together. DC-I live it dearly. But she truly, truly ran with it. I only gave her the bare bones of what that song is. I still have what I wrote, and you can see that she started where I started, but she's a way better writer than I am, and she went for it. That song is at least three quarters hers. She wrote all the music. She wrote at least as many of the words as I did. And she took it to a level that I could never have gotten it to. I think she is the most brilliant singer-songwriter of all. I mean, I love Dylan. He's a good poet. But musically, she's light years ahead of him, and that's what kicks it over the top for me. and tunings AG- Getting back to Joni Mitchell for a second, were you both coming up with alternate tunings at the same time? DC-I was working in tunings when I met her, and she was working in tunings, so we influenced each other. She was writing songs like "Michael From Mountains," and I was writing "Guinnevere," and we couldn't help but listen to each other. I think she's probably more advanced at it than anybody except Michael Hedges. Michael Hedges was pretty much unquestionably the finest acoustic guitar player of this century. He took tunings to a level that nobody except Joni has ever gotten close to. Hope everybody enjoys this. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:11:17 GMT From: "Jamie Zubairi" Subject: Larry Klein I really like Larry Klein even thought I think he is a little serious. If he should be criticised it should be for the preface to the BSN album. to quote: 'The album would be a programmatic suite documenting a relationship from initial flirtation through optimistic consumation, metamorphosing into disillisionment, ironic despair, and finally resolving in the philosophical overview of acceptance and the probability of the cycle repeating itself.' I mean, how NOT to set a mood! Otherwise I like him, and his little acting debut in Grace Of My Heart. He's a good guy who really knows the modern sound and I think he was responsible for the clarity and sound in WTRF. (well I have got a gold version). Okay so DED is a little *too* modern.... but it's an amazing sound. Jamie Zoob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:21:23 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC > > I pretty much like the cover, of course. She does get credit for goingin > neither an explicitly dancy or completely reverential direction. > > BUT I wish they had stuck with the original choice for the nostalgic > funeral song: Patti Smith's "Easter." That would have been a cover worth > dying for!!! > > --Michael, never too fond of "American Pie" anyway > you must be joking! I love that song. Patti Smith is a goddess. Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:25:11 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC > > > so, here's my rhetorical question of the day - does anyone apart from > >me, > > > wonder why Madonna bothered to re-do "American Pie"? a) why bother to > >begin > > > with b) if you're going to bother, could you put a little life into it? > > > > > > Yeesh. > > > > >Well, the movie is called 'The Next Best Thing and actually Rupert Everrett > >convinced her to cover 'American Pie' to provide some music to accompany > >the > >scene of his close friend's funeral. I think that her version is > >appropriately melancholy considering the subject of both the film and the > >lyrics, and she should be commended for not taking the easiest and most > >commercial option of speeding up the tempo and whacking a fat dance beat > >behind it. > > > >oops i know you didn't want an answer but... > > But you couldn't help yourself, could you, Matty dearest? Actually that is > a BIG help - if it's a funeral in a film, that splains a whole lot of things > - here I thought Madonna was truly aiming at the Muzak market! > > Catherine (in Toronto) Well always happy to help Cath, that's the problem with those rhetorical questions, they'll never get us anywhere. I am very glad though that she did not betray the true sentiment of the song as it is essentially about death. Not that there isn't an element of optimism in there. And Erotica is a brilliant album Azeem - she hasn't exactly disowned it; she never says sorry for artistic decisions she's made, which is a very commendable attitude I think. Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:30:13 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Heart on her sleeve At 10:00 AM 2/14/00 EST, TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: >The final, breaking point for me was seeing that close up >of the heart on her sleeve on the CD. Is it possible that Joni is giving the more casual viewer of art a clue? I will admit that had I not previously read JMDL posts about this "heart on her sleeve" image I honestly don't know if I would have noticed it. By putting that close-up on the CD itself, those who are not astute observers of the art will see it and make the connection. As in "hmmm...heart on her sleeve...what's she trying to tell us?" Leading to further examination of the litho(s) and more contemplation of the art and its meanings. For some of us not well schooled in the visual arts we need all the help we can get. And who sez her work ain't accessible? :-) Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:43:58 -0000 From: "Chris Marshall" Subject: RE: Deleted Joni > Had an odd experience at the weekend. I went into MVC in Harrow to get a > copy of Blue on CD for a freind who needs an introduction to Joni. As > usual, it wasn't in the racks. The only ever seem to have FTR, Hits and > MOA. Nothing daunted, I went to the counter to order a copy, but the > assistant looked it up and said, "I can get it for you on cassette, but > it's been deleted on CD." > > Deleted? Blue? Surely not? Has anyone else found this? Er. I bought a copy about two weeks ago - there were more than one in the store (HMV Cambridge, UK). Not that it proves a thing... It would be very strange if it had been deleted though. Stupid even. - --Chris Chris Marshall Secure Systems Integration Ltd Web: http://www.secure-si.co.uk/ Tel: +44 (0) 7970 459 553 Fax: +44 (0) 1954 201 741 E-mail: chris@secure-si.co.uk PGP key: http://www.secure-si.co.uk/chris/pubkey.txt Fingerprint: 86F2 8809 FAC2 37ED 491A FD7D 7CAF 3206 E706 D3B3 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:31:21 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Joni in new VF - now Madonna, absolutamente NJC Hello Azeem, > The reason I'm replying is that > by some strange synchronicity I'm listening as I read this to Madonna's > "Erotica", and wonder if I'm the only one who thinks it's great - even La > Ciccone has virtually disowned it, but I think it's magnificent, with some > fabulous grooves, pretty decent singing and - yes - some bloody good songs. Well, unless it's just you and me both, Erotica *is* a very underrated and unfairly maligned album. I think it essentially had the misfortune to be released at the same time as her notorious "Sex" book, which caused an almighty backlash here in the UK. Also, its first single - the title cut - wasn't perhaps the best choice with which to advertise the record as a whole. Until Ray Of Light came along, it was probably my favourite Madonna album (yes, really!). Even now, I still rate it highly....Rain, Words, Thief Of Hearts, In This Life and even Fever (sorry!)....love them all, and among her best work. Where Life Begins also has the dubious honour of bringing the subject of oral sex to my attention (I was such an innocent and sheltered 21-yr old!), but that's just one of the unfortunate side-effects of being exposed to the album.... ;-) Erotica very nearly made it into my recently-compiled Top 100 Albums of all-time. Has she spoken of it in less than positive tones?? At the time of Ray Of Light, I'm sure I recall her *defending* the album in a lengthy interview with Q magazine. > And a wonderfully funny rap number called Did You Do It. Hahahaha...well, I always skip that track now since it regurgitates the backing track used on the earlier "Waiting" (which I much prefer), but it does have an entertaining appeal for a while, I admit.... Jason, hoping that by tomorrow this damn 'flu will have gone.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:03:56 EST From: ZZScotty@aol.com Subject: defective BSN's to be replaced by Reprise (NJC) On February 11, I e-mailed Reprise with the following question: "I am a member of the Joni Mitchell Discussion List. I am sure you are aware of the many scratched CD's delivered. I have purchased 2 copies - one through a Barnes & Noble retail outlet, and the other through a website (which I haven't received yet). I am returning the retail-purchased copy today, because of the scratches. My question is this: if my web-site ordered CD is also defective, and I want to keep it for the lithograph & packaging, will you be offering a new CD to purchasers at no cost or low cost? I will relay your answer to the discussion list. Thank you, Sean" Today, Reprise responded: "hi sean, we will be replacing all the defective cds from the limited edition at no additional cost to you. i don't have any information at this time as to when the newly printed cds will be done. best, betty" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:26:30 EST From: RIKandBRAD@aol.com Subject: News From Reprise Here's what I got today from Reprise: Dear Customer, Thank you for ordering Joni Mitchell's Limited Edition of "Both Sides Now" from Time Warner Order Center. Unfortunately, due to manufacturing problems, this product is currently on backorder. Please accept our sincere apologies for the delay in shipment. We expect to have additional inventory this week and will be contacting you gain regarding the status of your order in the next several days. Thank you for your understanding. I you would like to cancel your order, please contact us as soon as possible at (800) 274-9700 or email us at TWOC@WEAC.com. Regards, Time Warner Order Center Customer Service I'm gonna hang in there, cause I know it will be a good one! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:01:32 EST From: RIKandBRAD@aol.com Subject: My Turn-On to Joni Radio By A Straight Man Richard Rice wrote: > Admit it Bob, you are a rare bird for a straight male. I don't think she > was attacking her straight male fans, just commenting on her own > perception of the demographics of her fan base. Randy Remote Wrote: >I am one of those straight males, and when I think about >it, I don't think I've ever met another SM who is a Joni >fan. This after 30 solid years of fandom. Plenty of Allman >Bros or G Dead fans, etc. I have been reading with interest the allegations that Joni can only be heard by gay men, and some enlightened straight men. I thought only dogs had the ability to hear sounds we humans cannot hear (okay, folks, I know she was talking about demos, but I couldn't resist). Actually, although amusing, this whole discussion makes me uneasy - I mean, isn't it really about our collective appreciation of a musician and (a spotty group -myself included) our collective appreciation of a painter. We should resist being divisive, there aren't too many of us out there! In 1976, my red, white and blue coming out year, I was turned-on to Joni Mitchell by my good pal, fellow student, coworker, and object of my misplaced affections, Mike Z, straight man. On the way to surf one day, flying down MacArthur Blvd in Newport Beach, The Wild Man plugged MOA into the 8-track dash of his 60s-someting VW bug (not SuperBeetle), let out a yelp, and said - you gotta hear this far out chick singer. Having just abandoned/divorced/got done with Carly Simon after Hotcakes and that annoying AM-ish Mockingbird song, I was more ready to continue my exploration of Peter Frampton, Led Zepplin, Armatrating and the like. But, out of my infatuation for The Wild Man, I listened, knowing he would want to yak up the chick later. But, Joni caught me by the shorts with the r-n-r sounding Big Yellow Taxi. I was hooked. It was that easy. Too bad Mike wasn't. While my exploration of JM music continued fervently, my unrequited relationship with The Wild Man went into a death spiral. When I exposed the Pride of my coming out day to him, it died. My still-broken heart holds him true regardless. Through a mutual friend, I was told he attended the JM/Dylan-fest at UCLA with older JM t-shirts on himself, his wife and two kids. Haven't seen him since '76, but would have loved to see that. Happy Valentine's Day from Hollywood. With fondness and absolute admiration for the JMDL family, Richard in Hollywood Last Seen in Detroit in '68 ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #93 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?