From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #91 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, February 14 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 091 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: A Strange boy. Or at least a rare bird. [Jason Maloney ] Re: BSN Gave it a spin [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Joni Interview on Newsweek (TV show) [luvart@snet.net] NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: it sounds stupid... [Vince Lavieri ] Re: it sounds stupid... [David Wright ] RE: BSN NY Times Review ["patrick leader" ] Re: Joni's complete lack of grace. She's no Britney Spears [Bounced Messa] Joni's complete lack of grace [Bounced Message ] my graceless post [Bounced Message ] Re: BSN NY Times Review NJC ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Joni's complete lack of grace. The kid gloves are off! NJC ["Eric Tay] Revenge of the Old Farts ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Catching up with Joni and Stuff [dsk ] Re: BSN NY Times Review [dsk ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:52:41 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: A Strange boy. Or at least a rare bird. Richard Rice wrote: > When you finally give up the strings, where am I going to > turn to for music of your ilk? I doubt Warner Brothers is scouring the > clubs looking for insightful, poetic artistry on the sorrows and joys > of the human experience. ...but they already have Jewel :-) Jason, struck down with heavy 'flu these last 4 days, and drowning in a sea of JMDL posts ;o) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:51:23 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: C-S-N-Y (NJC) In a message dated 2/13/00 3:41:09 PM US Central Standard Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << Someday Soon You mean the Judy Collins song? Penned by Ian Tyson, I think, and Stills played on JC's version. Who sang it? >> I'm sure the one they played is the Graham Nash tune on "Looking Forward"...and for you trivia buffs, Firefall also had a song by the same title on their "Luna Sea" album. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:41:57 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re:it sounds stupid... On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Matthew Hall wrote: > It sounds stupid, but what is Siquomb exactly? SIQUOMB: She Is Queen Undisputed Of Mind Beauty other Joni acronyms include: SISOTOWBELL: Somehow In Spite Of Trouble Ours Will Be EverLasting Love POSALL: Perhaps Our Souls Are Little Ladies MOSALM: Maybe Our Souls Are Little Men - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:59:49 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: BSN Gave it a spin Debra, You are so right, "Comes Love" is unforgettable. IMHO, the best track (that is, of the ones that I can listen to...) I played the c.d. six times through yesterday (again, the tracks that I can listen to...) and by the sixth time, I liked it a whole lot more than I did at first, agreeing with Randy about why these song choices for the most part, however (I would love to hear Joni cover "Seems Like Old Times" and not all) and never, ever will I get used to those over-ripe orchestrations. Unlike others, I heard nothing Wagnerian about them... just too much. The only Wagerian thing about BSN-LE is that when I first discovered all the scratches, I had a passing thought about Das Gotterdammerung and only my profound piety kept me from saying something like that sounded like that... (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:02:17 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: Joni Interview on Newsweek (TV show) Anne - Did you (or anyone) get this on tape for any upcomimg Video tree footage? Heather At 07:43 PM 2/12/00 -0500, Anne Madden wrote: >Did anyone catch the interview last night (Fri. 11th) on Canadian TV? > >Joni looked good even though she wore no makeup. She smoked throughout the >interview and was in an extremely fiesty mood. She bristled when the >interviewer compared her to Leonard Cohen and Sylvia Tyson. Actually she >didn't seem to mind the Cohen comparison but clearly didn't care to be >compared to Sylvia. She got even more onery when she was compared to >Gordon Lightfoot....she said her music was nothing like Gordon Lightfoot's. > She also did not like the reference to her as a "folk singer" and said her >music was as far away from folk singing as you could get....she only sang >folk from 1964-1966. She mentioned that she had quite a few black people >who liked her music and they had no difficulty at all in interpreting it. >Joni also said that most of her fan base was made up of gay males, >females....the smallest group was white straight males! > >She lamented and talked about the sorry state of the music industry in >general. She of course talked about her new album. Her mother loved the >album and her Dad although he wasn't sure initially because the songs were >kind of sad, eventually did give it his seal of approval. She said the >orchestra didn't just show up to play....they put their hearts and souls >into it completely! She was very impresssed with them. > >At the beginning of the interview Joni said, "as usual, in my opinionated >opinion......" and trust me she was opinionated and certainly didn't back >down.....way to go Joni! I almost felt sorry for the interviewer but he >did a good job and didn't get too flustered, all things considered! > >Anne > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:30:39 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Now, if you want a "JoniMitchell" record, that is, > thought-provoking and challenging music, pick up Ani DiFranco's "To The > Teeth" now, and then get your Joni in a couple weeks! ;~) > I cannot agree with this. I listened to To the Teeth and found it very tiresome, even though I agree with all it says, it was musically tiresome. And I wouldn't call it a Joni Mitchell record either. I give Ani that much, that she is an original, just not to my personal, idiosyncratic taste. And to the comment from others, not Bob, about Joni as a hitmaker... she was, right up through C&S, and I think she chose a different path, as Marcel said. I would never disparage that by comparison to the Beatles (oh, how I love them). They chose different roads. I think that the idea of two roads to choose, and the Beatles went one road, Joni went another, in terms of trying to be a hitsmaker, is to disparage neither. There is more than one road, or what is a Road Not Taken poem for? (the Rev) Vince, wishing he had a Robert Frost recording of him reading his poem so I could be cool and say, NP: Robert Frost, The Road Not Taken. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:34:17 -0500 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: it sounds stupid... David Wright wrote: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Matthew Hall wrote: > > It sounds stupid, but what is Siquomb exactly? > > SIQUOMB: She Is Queen Undisputed Of Mind Beauty I always thought it was "Undoubtedly." Oh well, live and learn. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:59:34 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: it sounds stupid... > > SIQUOMB: She Is Queen Undisputed Of Mind Beauty > > I always thought it was "Undoubtedly." OK, I wrote the earlier post from memory thinking I'd get it close enough....it turns out we're each about half-right, Vince. I had the right word, you had the right part of speech; it's "undisputedly" (according to the Feb. 17, 1995 issue of Goldmine). - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:31:21 -0500 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: BSN NY Times Review ewt wrote: > This overpaid snob sits on his pompous ass <> (no doubt masturbating to ads glorifying anorexic >youth). jesus eric, this is just too much. are you suggesting that anyone holding an opinion outside of the e.w.t.-acceptable is a pervie? that is what you're communicating... yuck, and fuck you! this article was by steve holden, for god's sake. he got joni into the rock-n-roll hall of fame. he understood the bias that had not let her in, before, and he exposed it. this man knows her career. he is certainly qualified to express his opinion, in print, about this particular joni project. and even if he weren't qualified, it would still be wrong for you to suggest anything about his personal life just because he doesn't worship joni's current album. i may not agree with what he's said about this album, but i can differ with him without suggesting that he masturbates over childrens' pictures. > "Vocal deterioration?!" > I've never understood why people with no talent besides thinking up >snide critiques get paid SO much more than, say, yard boys. > Lawnmowers of the world UNITE! > E.T. > >__________________________________________ >NetZero - Defenders of the Free World >Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at >http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:22:11 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Joni's complete lack of grace. She's no Britney Spears From: "lpeakes" Subject: Re: Joni's complete lack of grace. She's no Britney Spears Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:18:40 -0500 <> Wow! This National interview sounds intense - can't imagine Joni as graceless - I can see how she'd let her inner brat out, though - sounds like the interviewer, however knowledgeable a jazz critic he may be, didn't do his homework on Joni. Was her attitude "if you didn't bother to find out much about me, I'm not going to bother to play the role of sycophant and nod and smile at your every comment"? As for spoiled, well - yes, she's wealthy, but she strikes me as a disciplined worker who's earned her bread. <> Seems like she has much more of a public persona now than ever - hard to picture the pigtailed Laurel Canyon Joni ever revealing details about her family life - I think I understand what you mean, though - alas, she's no Britney Spears. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:21:25 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Joni's complete lack of grace Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:39:02 -0800 From: "rick novosel" Mark rejoices: >I'm glad I didn't see her on the National! There has been a lot of discussion about this interview but I'm wondering how many people actually did see it and how many are reacting to partial qoutes. As far as I know the text hasn't been posted anywhere. Is that correct? Yes, these are familiar and often irksome refrains which make Joni sound like a bitter, self-centred victim but if you had seen her face during the interview you would have seen someone who looked betrayed and incredulous. The way she stumbled over her answers and couldn't seem to find the right words to describe her feelings showed imho that she was seriously tired of re-hashing this once again and could not believe that she had to explain her life and work one more time to someone who should have known better. She seemed to be bringing out all the old sad history because Ross Porter really seemed to have no clue she was anything but Joni Mitchell, Canadian Folk Singer. Which is surprising because he has been playing her on his jazz radio show for a couple of years now. The one reason I can see him asking the questions he asked is that CBC interviewers tend to ask questions that will get a rise out of the person being interviewed. A bland "So this is your new album, tell us about it and how are you by the way?" interview would probably not made it onto the tube. There was the opportunity for a wonderful comeback when Porter asked her if Joni was jumping on the jazz bandwagon given the success of Diana Krall. Isn't Diana Krall jumping on the Joni Mitchell bandwagon given her taking up with Larry Klein? Rick, still hoping that CBC will make a streaming video available. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:30:19 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: my graceless post From: "Mark S" Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:27:37 -0500 I am aware of the irony of my graceless post on Joni's "National" interview. And As Mathew Hall pointed out I certainly should not have told her to shut up. For these trangressions I apologize. Also, I certainly don't feel I have Joni all figured out. Pat, these are just my opinions, not set in stone, and open to discussion. That is why I su.bscribe to this list. I must admit my frustration with Joni certainly didn't help me portray my admiration for her work. Mathew Hall wrote. "when it is obvious that it is her whole body of work and her courage to explore new territory that has inspired and will continue to inspire many. Her legacy is what we make of it." You certainly can make an argument for that being her legacy. And she certainly does provoke discussion. respectfully Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:03:54 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review NJC Patrick replied: << ewt wrote: >This overpaid snob sits on his pompous ass (no doubt masturbating to ads glorifying anorexic youth). jesus eric, this is just too much. are you suggesting that anyone holding an opinion outside of the e.w.t.-acceptable is a pervie? that is what you're communicating... yuck, and fuck you! this article was by steve holden, for god's sake. he got joni into the rock-n-roll hall of fame... >> I don't care who Steve Holden thinks he is - that review was extremely mean-spirited & I'm sure very hurtful to Joni. It was indeed *yuck* & I hopefully conveyed something much more descriptive than a simple *fuck you.* No apologies, E __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:32:15 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Joni's complete lack of grace. The kid gloves are off! NJC Mark S" spewed: << I'm glad I didn't see her on the National! If I want to see graceless spoiled brats I'll watch baseball, football, basketball...Poor Joni, forced to live a lie, defenseless to the onslaught of Maserati's; misunderstood, neglected, screwed over by her industry! (I'm now understanding The Sire of Sorrow as autobiographical!) Joni is really nowhere on the modern music scene. She has no public persona these days and she is about as vital as a CSNY reunion tour encore.... Her legacy is Blue, C&S, maybe Hejira but probably not.... She paints pretty pictures, but she's not stretching any boundaries there! So shut up and paint. Mark straight,still a fan, and about to be screwed by Jean Chretien, again. (the taxman cometh) >> So you didn't even watch the interview but somehow psychically conclude that Joni was a "graceless spoiled brat." So you only like the young Joni at her poppest. So you don't appreciate mature music. So you straight. So what? SO sick of insults like this! E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 01:18:39 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Revenge of the Old Farts Since last Tuesday I've played BSN for four senior citizens & they all flipped. The most interesting reaction came from my client/friends Gail & Dave. Gail blasted it while I was fixing her PC & Dave pulled her aside to ask where he could get a copy. So I burned them a copy for Valentine's Day. When she played it tonight Gail said Dave loves Lena Horne & Billie Holiday but that she prefers Joni's voice. Coming from someone who had never even heard of Joni Mitchell until this week reafirms my conviction that BSN is among the best records Joni has put out to date. My girlfriend June (who turned me onto Judy & Lena 20-some years ago) made me play BSN twice for her the day it was released. June has never been a Joni fan (she calls most of it country music but loves Last Chance Lost). She also wants a copy & I will give her the Limited Edition for Valentine's Day. My Mom adored BSN & has liked Joni ever since I first played Blue for her in High School. I'll never forget her asking me to play Slouching Towards Bethlehem louder a second time when we were driving to California a few years ago. This has been the best Valentine I've ever received. Thank you from the top & bottom of my heart, Joni! E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 01:40:31 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: Catching up with Joni and Stuff TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: > I have always piped in re: her art mainly as a reaction to what others have > written about it, rather than blatantly saying her art work is weak. Debra is > wise in saying she'll refrain from further opinions until she sees the pieces > in person, and I had agreed with that too, in earlier discussions. My conscious self has been trying to avoid thinking about Joni's art until I can see some in person, but apparently my dreaming self just won't let it rest since I woke up this morning with the word time and pictures of Joni's art on my mind, like it's a puzzle I have to figure out. So I'm going to give it a try. > I do think that "great" art work does break new ground. but it's more than > that. There's plenty of crappy art that is new to the eye or that appears > avant-garde. I'm not sure who wrote, saying that great art had to be > avant-garde, but I surely don't believe that. I don't believe that either and now, when information is so quickly passed around, I don't know if an avant-garde is even possible. I think to be effective a person's art has to be honest and true to that person's particular experience, which to me includes taking into consideration the times she or he is living in. That's why different movements evolve, not because someone consciously sets about doing something new, but because the former ways of representing life truthfully don't fit anymore. And the change in style doesn't have to be dramatic or completely without earlier influences (which is impossible anyway) for the work to speak honestly to a new time. Just after graduating from college and moving to NYC about 20 years ago I was at a temp job and the office manager found out my degree was a BFA. One day she said in a very friendly way, "oh, you're an artist. Me too. I'm into Cubism. What are you into?" We were on an elevator and I remember kind of shrinking back, feeling very confused while I thought about Cubism being invented in 1910 and why is she so happy about being into it now?, and probably made some kind of gagging noises while I figured out how to respond. It was a short elevator ride, thank God, because I don't think I ever came out with anything. I didn't know "what" I was into, I was just doing paintings, using bright colors and trying to get a grip on life in the big city, how to pay the rent, buy materials and being an artist in a city of thousands of artists instead of being a favorite student. My plan of action if she ever asked me about art again was to talk about our common ground which was the technical stuff, paints, qualities of different pigments, brushes to use, or exhibits we'd seen, artists we liked, that kind of thing. But I didn't know how I could possibly appreciate or get enthused about someone copying Cubism. (She never brought up the subject again. Guess that struck-dumb look and gagging sound scared her off. :-D) Looking at Joni's art from TI on I get that same kind of "what's the point?" feeling. Yes her paintings are pretty, yes she uses color well, yes she has more to learn, which she readily admits, but really, why am I looking at copies of 19th century painting, and, as an aside, why, unless she's carved the frames herself, are they included in the reproductions of her work? She presents her work as Painting with a capital P, big deal stuff, and although I can greatly appreciate the technical aspects and respect the enjoyment and challenge of learning that Joni's going through, the works themselves don't seem honest and true to me. The "salad bowl" approach of assimilating all her influences, which is what Joni has said she's doing, is artificial. To me her Paintings are very contrived (sorry, Kakki, I've got to disagree with you on that one -- for now anyway). Does she think the way to creating something meaningful is just to take bits and pieces from here and there and call them one's own? That doesn't sit right with me and I can't believe that's how she came up with her early music. > Kakki said: > why is she held to that standard? > And Terry responded: > And that really is what it all boils down to. It's the posts depicting her as > the greatest artist of our time, that gets me going. The "greatest artist of our time" posts set me off too. So in that case it's not Joni that I'm responding to. She can paint exactly what she wants to paint and, as Kakki says, Joni's not claimed to be an influential painter, just one that's learning and trying to work through influences. But, if Joni considers these paintings as merely learning exercises or decorations for her home, why are they in such a permanent public display on her CDs? We'll be looking at her "educating herself" paintings for decades. And since she's made them so public as Paintings, not as mere illustrations for her CDs, talking about them in the context of Art with a capital A is unavoidable, at least for me. So, after all of that, I think I'll try again to not think about Joni's artwork until I've seen some in person (and dream about something else tonight I hope). Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 02:25:14 -0500 From: dsk Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review Eric, I don't understand what you're so upset about and why you so hatefully dismiss this entire review and characterize the reviewer in such an ugly way. Throughout it, Holden makes many comments about the new-found emotional depth and power of Joni's voice. Joni's voice HAS deteriorated (so hate me for saying that if you choose to). She's really straining in some parts of BSN to get the sound out, which was very obvious even in my cursory listening. Now she's sometimes almost talking instead of singing. Compare that to her fluid vocal gymnastics when she was younger. The trade-off is a much richer, more emotional sound, and in various ways Holden emphasizes that and praises Joni throughout the review. I guess you think you're being enthusiastic, but your absolutist, all-or-nothing attitude is really ugly and brainless. (so hate me again) And why not complain about the NY Daily News review? That was much more negative than this one. Debra Shea Eric Taylor wrote: > Stephen Holden www.nytimes.com epitomises why I detest snotty critics: > > << FEW contemporary voices have aged more shockingly than Joni Mitchell's. > The craggy alto on "Both Sides Now," her intermittently magnificent new > album of standards (including two of her best-loved original songs), is so > changed from the sweetly yodeling folk soprano of her earliest albums that > it hardly seems possible the two sounds could have come from the same body. > In refusing to fight or try to camouflage the ravages of time, Ms. Mitchell > belongs to an interpretive school that includes Billie Holiday and Frank > Sinatra, whose vocal deterioration brought them greater emotional depth and > realism. >> > > This overpaid snob sits on his pompous ass putting down the greatest > musicians of our time (no doubt masturbating to ads glorifying anorexic > youth). > "Vocal deterioration?!" > I've never understood why people with no talent besides thinking up > snide critiques get paid SO much more than, say, yard boys. > Lawnmowers of the world UNITE! > E.T. > > __________________________________________ > NetZero - Defenders of the Free World > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #91 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?