From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #90 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, February 13 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 090 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- BSN Lithos (now fortified with NJC) [evian ] Lawnmowers (NJC) ["Alan Lorimer" ] Re: Joni Interviews ["Alan Lorimer" ] re: BSN/Stephen Holden/HOSL/S&L [Robert Holliston ] Re: BSN lithos (md) ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Add Me To The List!!! ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: A Case Of Joni ["Eric Taylor" ] Joni's rants [Robert Holliston ] FW: NY Daily News Review ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Joni's rants [MGVal@aol.com] Re: BSN NY Times Review ["Eric Taylor" ] C-S-N-Y (NJC) ["Kakki" ] FW: BSN NY Times Review ["Ross, Les" ] Joni's complete lack of grace. The kid gloves are off! ["Mark S" ] Re: BSN DOA [Catherine Turley ] Re: Joni's complete lack of grace. The kid gloves are off! [Siresorrow@ao] A Strange boy. Or at least a rare bird. [Richard Rice ] Re:Why Joni has no hits. [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Add Me To The List!!! [Randy Remote ] Re: A Strange boy. Or at least a rare bird. [Randy Remote ] Re: Catching up with Joni and Stuff [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Catching up with Joni and Stuff [SMEBD@aol.com] Re: (now fortified with NJC) [catman ] Re: Why Joni has no hits. [catman ] Re: A Strange boy. Or at least a rare bird. [catman Subject: BSN Lithos (now fortified with NJC) Ken writes: > Well for someone who actually cuts grass for a sideline and uses the money to buy his computer > equipment, I'll keep my comments to my self except to say NO FUBU SHIRTS. I'm more of a steel > toe'd shoes and oily shorts kinda guy and my hands still, even though we have 3 feet of snow > on the lawn, smell of gasoline. > The only thing I have to say is "But even on the scuffle, the cleaner's press was in my jeans....." ;) Evian, who, in the course of sitting here for about TWELVE hours trying to get a thesis chapter done for Monday since I now have to work most of the week, has had the t.v. tuned into Home and Garden (coincidence? I think not!) and, since they repeat their shows CONTINUALLY, I can probably give you all verbatim reports on the progress ole Bruno Reich made on his house this week on "Dream House".... I'm going to sleep now for a long, long time, and will be dreaming about Bruno's damn window problems.... Oy...Calgon, take me away!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:32:09 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Lawnmowers (NJC) I prefer "The Hissing of Summer Lawns" to the sound of a Lawn Mower. Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Van Diemens Land ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:32:59 +1100 From: "Alan Lorimer" Subject: Re: Joni Interviews Go Joni!!! Why do people think she should be nice in interviews? You'll be expecting her to go on chat shows next ;-) Alan Lorimer Hawley Beach Van Diemens Land ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:45:33 -0800 From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: BSN/Stephen Holden/HOSL/S&L Greetings! As my CDNow order has yet to arrive in any condition, I still haven't heard a note of BSN. But reading the reviews from the list as well as the media made me impatient enough to visit the local record store which, alas, had no copies in stock. I've always enjoyed Stephen Holden's writing, so his article was a treat: well thought-out and clearly expressed (if you disagree with him, you know at least where you part ways). In fact, after reading it, I immediately went back to Les's site to re-read Holden's pieces on HOSL and S&L. It's safe to say, after 25 years of HOSL's growth in stature, that Holden missed the boat about that album musically. Joni was pushing the envelope in terms of what a "popular" audience could accept and relate to as melody, and Stephen didn't quite get it (wonder if he does now....) But he wrote effusively and perceptively about the lyrics. True, he described the synthesizer sound (*not* the music itself) on the title track as a "low, solemn fart," but he also dispensed some sage advice: that she work with musicians of her own stature. He suggested Keith Jarrett, and wouldn't that be a project! IMHO, Jarrett is an even greater musician than Herbie Hancock, and he can certainly match Joni in terms of eccentricity and idiosyncracy. It seems out of proportion that this review has always been misunderstood, and that it set in motion a chain of events culminating in the "Worst Album of 1975" myth. As for the S&L review, I wonder if Holden wasn't the only major music journalist to fully recognize and acknowledge what a serious and major masterpiece this is! (I can't really be objective: having the Japanese video reminds me that the Vancouver S&L concert remains one of the greatest experiences of my life.) And as for Rex Reed, I'm reminded of Doris Lessing, who said that the only importance a review has to her is if it helps sell her novels. I've always considered Reed an idiot, but if he helps sell a few more copies of BSN, then I'm all for his muck being printed. Thus concludes my I-want-to-say-something-about-BSN-but-haven't-heard-it-yet post. very best to all, Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:35:47 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: BSN lithos (md) Marcel wrote: << In a message dated 00-02-12 02:59:30 EST, ewwt@netzero.net writes: << << I had almost the opposite first take on the paintings; they look to me like some of old paint by numbers kits people used to do. She uses some nice colors, but if she wasn't "Joni Mitchell", these paintings would never be seen by the public aside from showing up in a yard sale. >> >> >> For the record, I DIDN'T WRITE THAT!!! I was quoting SCBob. Please pay attention to the << .... >>'s. :~&>* E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 04:40:25 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Add Me To The List!!! RIKandBRAD@aol.com added: << Just got my 2 BSNs from CDNOW, both are ruined - all scratched up - can't hear Case of You at all. I propose a class-action lawsuit!... What barely plays sounds good tho! >> Could this be some kind of a strange new marketing strategy by Reprise? While I seem to be one of the few lucky listeners, having played BSN/LE on four CD players without any problem, when I listened to it today on my SOTA Rotel system, ACOY didn't play one channel for about 30 seconds. I rushed it to my CD writer & made a copy which plays perfectly. I increasingly suspect that the problem isn't in the packaging but the CD itself. If this is the case I am SO glad we caught the glitch before it's released to the general public next month. BSN will definitely win at least one Grammy! E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:59:20 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: A Case Of Joni Jerry Notaro contributes from The Advocate: << ....Mitchell holds her own and then some, sounding like a beautifully aged wind instrument. The bell-like tones of her early records are long gone, replaced by a smoky, resonant voice that has become an interpretive tool. Mitchell no longer just sings her songs, she inhabits them. The record as a whole is a knockout, particularly Comes Love and You've Changed, which in now way resemble the songs you've heard while cruising your local piano bars. The orchestral layers are complex and lush, the vocal phrasing sophisticated. The two self-penned pieces she does include are breathtaking. Even in this classic collection, they stand out like jewels. A Case of You, arguably on of Mitchell's best songs ever, is stunning not only in the emotional impact of the musical arrangement but in her understated vocal. >> WOW! My feelings exactly. The line that knocks me out in the new Case Of You is: "If you want me I'll be in the bar." That's what I'd name the cover litho. BTW, I just noticed the heart on her sleeve tonight. E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:59:44 -0800 From: Robert Holliston Subject: Joni's rants Ach! I share Evian's and Mark's impatience with Joni's rants. She does sometimes come across as a one-note symphony (a symphony, of course, with all the implied grandeur, but one-note nonetheless). But that CBC interviewer would surely have tried the patience of Gandhi! What inane questions! That anyone in 2000 (or even1968) could consider Joni Mitchell a folksinger! She seems to be carrying two albatrosses: she's female, and she's Canadian. Elvis Costello (himself no slouch) has already observed that she has very few peers among singer/songwriters of either gender. But the Canadian thing is even more insidious - why would that interviewer dredge up Gordon Lightfoot, whose lyrics and music do not in any way resemble Joni's (except that they can be reproduced in print), unless he was Canadian? No wonder she appeared a bit cranky! Ian and Sylvia?? No wonder she got royally pissed off!! The straight/gay male thing is disturbing. I've never met a jazz musician who didn't at least respect her work (many of them have been not only enthusiastic but specific in their praise) and I've never met a male jazz musician who wasn't straight (maybe I lead a sheltered life ;-) Why she would pigeonhole her admirers when that is the one thing she most resists and resents herself is beyond comprehension. Oh well, she's only human ;-) As for the painting, consider: back in 1983, Rolling Stone (which by that time had become expensive toilet paper) published a Gallery of the Overrated (without crediting Woody Allen for the idea). It included Joni, Jackson, both Simons (Carly and Paul) and even Lauren Bacall (but not Katharine Hepburn; that would have required balls). The Joni entry said: "Sensitive Soul: Should go back to painting." Not that Joni would plan her life around Rolling Stone, but she does seem morbidly sensitive to criticism. One can't help wondering what would have happened if Joni had made her professional mark in painting first. (Interviewer: "Very few people are buying or even noticing your paintings, even though your work has influenced many female/Canadian artists." Joni: "Well, I was a musician first, ever since I bought my first ukelele........) IMHO, neither painting nor music was her first true love. It was the power and beauty of words. But even when she talks about her albums, she talks about herself mostly as a musical maverick. It's as if her first and most potent gift is not to be dealt with in conversation..... Just my $0.02 worth... Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:09:54 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: FW: NY Daily News Review This is a bunch of crap. I have both these records and the opposite might be closer to the truth. GM's record sounds at best sacharin at worst over-egged. JM's record is a masterpiece. To hell with humble opinions A Case of You on BSN is one of the finest peices of music I have ever heard. Let me repeat what I have written earlier, I had no hopes for this project at all, being unmoved by recent covers she has committed to other people's projects. But this entire collection is perfection. Once again my perennial doubts about my feelings about the canon of Mitchell works are wiped away. They wrote ........ The exact opposite turns out to be true. Michael puts in a sweet and moving performance, while Mitchell (my idol!) brings little of her brilliance to bear. The most striking aspect of Michael's interpretations, in fact, is the naive quality in his voice, communicating an almost antique innocence. Some of this derives from less than ideal circumstances: namely, Michael's shallowness. He isn't a guy who exudes significant experience or great intelligence. Joni Mitchell can't help but communicate much more sophistication on her album. But her take on standards like "Stormy Weather" and "Don't Talk to Strangers" (timed to come out for Valentine's Day) winds up depressingly turgid. As even her most ardent fans must acknowledge, Joni has lost significant elements of her voice over the years. But usually she makes up for it with phrasing and arrangements that fill in nuance and color. Here, Mitchell's phrasing is puzzlingly repetitive, her melodic choices narrow, emphasizing the most brittle and hoarse aspects of her instrument. She minimizes the tunes with the orchestral arrangements, which tend to be dreary, dark and slow. There's little vigor anywhere, in fact, and no compelling mood. Only her version of "Comes Love" (made famous by Billie Holiday) nails the sad wit of the lyric. Longtime followers will be intrigued by the fact that Mitchell included two of her own classics, "A Case Of You" and "Both Sides Now." But to what end? The latter is motionless. The former, once one of the most movingly tense pieces in recorded history, here meanders. Like most everything else on the record, it ends up heartbreaking for all the wrong reasons. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 06:13:41 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's rants In a message dated 2/13/00 3:00:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, rhollis@home.com writes: << One can't help wondering what would have happened if Joni had made her professional mark in painting first. (Interviewer: "Very few people are buying or even noticing your paintings, even though your work has influenced many female/Canadian artists." Joni: "Well, I was a musician first, ever since I bought my first ukelele........) IMHO, neither painting nor music was her first true love. It was the power and beauty of words. But even when she talks about her albums, she talks about herself mostly as a musical maverick. It's as if her first and most potent gift is not to be dealt with in conversation..... >> Great post! The more I read about her rants and raves, which are sadly not confined to this interview, it really does sound of defensiveness. She pours her heart and soul into her music from the very start, right up to the entire package. And yet, she's not a fast mover, (BTW, as of Friday 2/11, Valley's stock-on-hand of BSN went from 2,500 to just over 300 pcs!), nor a sure seller. Now matter how many times you believe in "You do your best and that's the best you can do," it still hurts to not be wholly embraced. Even in my small way, I know that I get zinged harder by the handful of people who don't even crack a smile at my jokes or observations during my monthly accounting presentation than the overall warm reception. It is interesting, though, that for someone who consistently spouts a philosophy of finding balance in life, (re: her contributions to that Rolling Stone "words for the new millennium" issue), she has a tough time being gracious and forgiving. Granted, it seems that the CBC interviewer was a moron, but the "I'm really a painter" assertions are regular utterances from her. MG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 05:55:58 -0800 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: BSN NY Times Review Stephen Holden www.nytimes.com epitomises why I detest snotty critics: << FEW contemporary voices have aged more shockingly than Joni Mitchell's. The craggy alto on "Both Sides Now," her intermittently magnificent new album of standards (including two of her best-loved original songs), is so changed from the sweetly yodeling folk soprano of her earliest albums that it hardly seems possible the two sounds could have come from the same body. In refusing to fight or try to camouflage the ravages of time, Ms. Mitchell belongs to an interpretive school that includes Billie Holiday and Frank Sinatra, whose vocal deterioration brought them greater emotional depth and realism. >> This overpaid snob sits on his pompous ass putting down the greatest musicians of our time (no doubt masturbating to ads glorifying anorexic youth). "Vocal deterioration?!" I've never understood why people with no talent besides thinking up snide critiques get paid SO much more than, say, yard boys. Lawnmowers of the world UNITE! E.T. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:13:49 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: C-S-N-Y (NJC) I was pinching myself for at least the first hour of the almost four hour CSNY concert Saturday night at Staples Center because I could not quite believe what I was experiencing - it was so magical. I went to the show with low expectations - several twists of fate have always happened to keep me from seeing all four together on one stage, and I wanted just to finally see them at least once in this lifetime. It not only exceeded my expectations, it has to be one of the most incredible shows I have ever seen. For those who even like them a little, run, don't walk, and do whatever you can to see this show. It has to be the tour of the year and one of the tops of the decade. I cannot even begin to describe it all - words will not do it justice. The previous shows have been getting raves so this was not just a one-night fluke. At one early point in the show Neil Young called out to the audience to "get up off your asses" and start, I suppose, showing more handslapping, cheering enthusiasm. What Neil didn't get, I think, is that the audience wasn't being typical L.A. laidback, but rather, was so bowled over and mesmerized they were almost paralyzed and riveted to their seats. Myself and everyone around me all had mouths agape in a perpetual goofy, amazed grin. I met up with an old childhood friend at the first break and she approached me with mouth still agape in the same goofy smile. I think Neil did get it shortly thereafter from the standing ovations following each song and a ten-minute standing ovation at the end. Forget everything you've ever heard about their personal ups and downs, forget all the less than stellar recordings or concerts of past years, forget it, forget it, forget it. Go see this show. Go. Partial Setlist, partially out of order (lost track in the euphoria and jet lag) Carry On, Southern Man, Stand and Be Counted, Pre-Road Dawns, Heartland, 49 Bye Byes, Slowpoke, Marrakesh Express, Faith in Me, No Tears Left, Dream For Him, Almost Cut my Hair, Cinnamon Girl, Helplessly Hoping, Our House, Old Man, Guineviere, Teach Your Children, Woodstock, Someday Soon, Seen Enough, Looking Forward, Long Time Gone, Out of Control, For What Its Worth, Down by the River, Ohio, Long May You Run By the way, the new Staples Center is an absolute marvel and the most magnificent large concert venue ever to grace L.A. I had friends in the highest nosebleed seats who said the sound/acoustics was phenomenal even way up there. Kakki, still processing it all - WOW NP: CSNY - Sanibel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:18:22 -0000 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: FW: BSN NY Times Review Again, bollocks. Sorry people I can't accept this as a correct review of A Case of You. All I can say in defense of my angered feelings about ACOY is that having listended to it about a 100 times, I cannot argue with the 'hairs going up on my arms' and that shuddering feeling that is just a little exstatic. The album's boldest and most problematic moments are its symphonically weighted versions of two Mitchell originals, "A Case of You" (originally a fragile folk-pop lament sung against a quivering dulcimer) and her most famous song, "Both Sides Now." Here, both are intoned as dramatic monologues amid churning, hovering strings. But since neither song goes anywhere harmonically, the music just sits heavily as the singer muses out loud. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:21:02 -0500 From: "Mark S" Subject: Joni's complete lack of grace. The kid gloves are off! I'm glad I didn't see her on the National! If I want to see graceless spoiled brats I'll watch baseball, football, basketball...Poor Joni, forced to live a lie, defenseless to the onslaught of Maserati's; misunderstood, neglected, screwed over by her industry! (I'm now understanding The Sire of Sorrow as autobiographical!) Joni is really nowhere on the modern music scene. She has no public persona these days and she is about as vital as a CSNY reunion tour encore. She puts out records (adorned with her artwork) to a loyal following and is lucky to be able to do so. She has decided the path of her career and conseqently nobody wants to hear about anything past C&S. (Except the chosen 600) Her continued indignance to the emphasis on her early career is tiresome. She followed her vision, some followed, most didn't. All those millenium lists never listed DJRD or Mingus. Her legacy is Blue, C&S, maybe Hejira but probably not. Whatever happens from here, in all likelihood she won't eclipse her early work. Furthermore, who would she have to be in the art world to be as important as she is in the music world. She paints pretty pictures, but she's not stretching any boundaries there! So shut up and paint. Mark straight,still a fan, and about to be screwed by Jean Chretien, again. (the taxman cometh) *Excellent point made by Robert Holliston on her fanbase analysis. *Evian's right, it is a slap in the face. *Bob's right too! I'm not rushing out to buy BSN! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:31:53 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: BSN-my review In a message dated 2/12/00 8:20:03 PM US Central Standard Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << My favorite cuts are her two originals, also, there is one cut, "Sometimes I'm Happy" that swings. This is the only one where Joni actually seems to be enjoying herself, she sounds looser and freer, and it makes me wish the whole album was done more in this jazz vein, instead of with the seriousness that the symphonic stuff has. "Comes Love" has some of this swing to it, too. >> Thanks for your thorough and honest review Randy. I too wish she had picked up the beat a little bit; considering she cites Lambert Hendricks and Ross as a huge influence, I would liked to hear her get into a "Trouble Man"-type groove and stay in love a little longer than the 4th track. "I Wish I Was In Love Again" would also be improved with a kick in the pants too, it could've swung! But don't anybody think that I dislike the record, hopefully I've made it clear that I enjoy it very much...even with its minor flaws. Bob NP: Foo Fighters, "Next Year" (no lack of swinging on THIS one!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:10:23 -0600 From: Michael Paz Subject: Straight to the Heart Anne quoted: "the smallest group was white straight males!" I guess us brown straight males are practically tokens. Paz P.S. Welcome home Kakki! Long may you run (squito bites and all) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:05:42 -0700 From: Catherine Turley Subject: Re: BSN DOA Hi Randy, Ouch--sorry to hear of yet another ruined BSN disc. Glad that the dry scrubbing worked to an extent. Now you have to follow up with some kind of polish. I told a friend about my steel wool and Endust approach, and he said that he uses Pledge on his scratched cds all the time--apparently when the laser hits the disc to play it, the spray wax fills in the scratches enough to reduce the refraction that causes skipping. Or so he says. Gotta try the Pledge. Though I do agree, scratched discs need to be returned--I just haven't worked up the energy to deal with the hassle of getting my money back rather than accepting an exchange or store credit. Good luck . . . Catherine T. in AZ Randy Remote wrote: > What I did was to put the CD play side up on a piece of > newspaper on the table, and with a clean pair of fairly > worn-in jeans, I dry-scrubbed the surface very forcefully > for about five minutes, stopping to check on my progress, > and concentrating on the worst scratches. I got most of > them out, but the process left lots of smaller scuffs.. > I took a clean tee shirt and went over the surface > again. The fine scratches are still there, and a > couple of the deepest ones are, too, but it plays > almost all the way through. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:23:07 EST From: Siresorrow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's complete lack of grace. The kid gloves are off! In a message dated 2/13/00 1:30:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, markschw@attcanada.net writes: << I'm glad I didn't see her on the National! If I want to see graceless spoiled brats I'll watch baseball, football, basketball ...Whatever happens from here, in all likelihood she won't eclipse her early work...... Joni is really nowhere on the modern music scene. ....Her legacy is Blue, C&S, maybe Hejira but probably not. So shut up and paint.... >> mark dude, not sure if i have read any of your posts before. having read this one, i'm not sure i want to read any more of them either. glad to see you have joni mitchell all figured out for us. just think of the time you have saved us from trying to make or own decisions about her music and painting and state of grace. pat ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:21:02 -0500 From: Richard Rice Subject: A Strange boy. Or at least a rare bird. So Bob, Here we are in Saskatoon, milling our way about the gallery, smoozing a bit with Kakki and Paz, BSN drifting along in the background, when you look up over the top of your shrimp canapé and there she is, Ms. Siquomb herself staring directly into your eye. She comes over, in a spirited festive mood, and thanks you for being one of her many beloved loyal fans. With great interest I watch for your reaction as she whispers in your ear, "So, Bob. May I call you Bob? What do YOU think of my paintings?........ Hummmmmmmm?" (Just kidding ya, Bobbo.) --Just read the last two days posts and really enjoyed your comments on several fronts... and I couldn't resist chiming in. Admit it Bob, you are a rare bird for a straight male. I don't think she was attacking her straight male fans, just commenting on her own perception of the demographics of her fan base. I assume what she meant is, her music has not exactly been flying off the shelves in record stores across America in spite of the high volume of sales. So who, in that wide demographic is probably most absent in purchasing her music? In all probability male buyers. Most straight men have a blind spot for Chick Flicks and Joni Mitchell. It's a guy thing. We could do a demographics test: head down to a typical bar in your area and poll the men regarding Ms. Mitchell and her music. If you find a fellow compatriot, buy the guy a drink! Now, grab a paper or something and hunt down the local gay bar in your area (?!) and ask the same question. (I leave the buying of drinks to your disgression.) I too get tired of Joni's railing against the Music Scene. True, her work is of such a high quality that it deserves air play and plenty of it. True, her companies have NOT gone out of their way to promote her music. But these failings are not the be all and end all of why she does not sell. Most of american commerce is geared to serving the three great stimulates of our culture. (No need to list them here, we know the song.) More so, the driving thematic scope of Pop music is boy meets girl, let's work the Mojo thing, limiting as it is. People, in general, break out in a rash when presented with art forms that have the qualities of Joni's music. The day the average guy starts listening to TTT is the day Masterpiece Theater shoots to the top of the ratings heap. We live in a "K-Mart" culture. Get over it Joan! Be HAPPY that you are a breath of fresh air in a mire of mediocrity. I certainly am happy and grateful. When you finally give up the strings, where am I going to turn to for music of your ilk? I doubt Warner Brothers is scouring the clubs looking for insightful, poetic artistry on the sorrows and joys of the human experience. As for Joni's art, it will be hard to assess until I see it in person. She is self taught, and in some ways that puts her work in a category with other 'naive' painters. Some of whom have transcended their lack of formal training, their quirks in style, subject matter, and presented fresh beautiful work of great charm and sophistication. I doubt Joan's work will ever be seen in any light higher than this. There are rules, the rules of nature, that have to be followed in order to render form well. And we all know how well she does with rules, so her 'realist' work, Bob, will always have that quirky, not just right feel to it, that you are sensitive to. At the same time, the pieces can still have a great deal of visual life and charm. But don't go by me, I happen to love Milton Avery's stuff, so there you have it. (The cows especially.) Also keep in mind that the BSN images were meant as illustrations to a package rather than 'high' art. Art is made in the looking. I believe the cover was whipped of in 18 hours? Picasso aside, good painting is neither quick nor easy. Although magical when an effortless gesture sums up all of one's artistic desire for the mark. I look at her painting as a kind of visual diary of an interesting person's life. It is a statement of her 'being in the world,' which for me, makes every everyone of them beautiful and priceless. BSN is awesome. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:15:16 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re: Joni's complete lack of grace. The kid gloves are off! I thought that was very unfair to Joni - and I would think that any Joni fan would share her indignance towards the emphasis of her career merits being continually, and entirely focused on her early work, when it is obvious that it is her whole body of work and her courage to explore new territory that has inspired and will continue to inspire many. Her legacy is what we make of it. I also think that it shows a complete lack of respect to tell anybody to shut up just because their opinion doesn't match your own. But I don't, by any means, believe that Joni is perfect (that's what makes her so good), she may have appeared ungracious and perhaps that was unwise when promoting a new cd, but as I understand there were some nice moments in the interview. At least she provokes discussion! She is only human, but it was a bit silly to pigeonhole her fans in such a way, I always thought we were such a diverse bunch, certainly not categorisable but gender or sexuality or whatever. I think it was probably a pretty throwaway comment though - not to be taken entirely seriously. I'm certainly not that offended by it. Matthew NP: Tori Amos, Hey Jupiter - 'Boys For Pele' - ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark S To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 6:21 PM Subject: Joni's complete lack of grace. The kid gloves are off! > I'm glad I didn't see her on the National! If I want to see graceless > spoiled brats I'll watch baseball, football, basketball...Poor Joni, forced > to live a lie, defenseless to the onslaught of Maserati's; misunderstood, > neglected, screwed over by her industry! (I'm now understanding The Sire of > Sorrow as autobiographical!) > Joni is really nowhere on the modern music scene. She has no public > persona these days and she is about as vital as a CSNY reunion tour encore. > She puts out records (adorned with her artwork) to a loyal following and is > lucky to be able to do so. She has decided the path of her career and > conseqently nobody wants to hear about anything past C&S. (Except the > chosen 600) > Her continued indignance to the emphasis on her early career is > tiresome. She followed her vision, some followed, most didn't. All those > millenium lists never listed DJRD or Mingus. Her legacy is Blue, C&S, maybe > Hejira but probably not. Whatever happens from here, in all likelihood she > won't eclipse her early work. > Furthermore, who would she have to be in the art world to be as > important as she is in the music world. She paints pretty pictures, but > she's not stretching any boundaries there! So shut up and paint. > > Mark > straight,still a fan, and about to be screwed by Jean Chretien, again. (the > taxman cometh) > > *Excellent point made by Robert Holliston on her fanbase analysis. > *Evian's right, it is a slap in the face. > *Bob's right too! I'm not rushing out to buy BSN! > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:23:24 -0000 From: "Matthew Hall" Subject: Re:it sounds stupid... It sounds stupid, but what is Siquomb exactly? I know it was the publishing, but what does it stand for? Matthew, so young and naive NP: Tori - Putting the Damage On : 'Boys For Pele' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:30:06 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re:Why Joni has no hits. As a songwriter, rock music afficianado, folk music lover, all kinds of music appreciator, it seems pretty obvious to me why Jonis music has never had universal sales potential. Its the simple fact that her music is absolutely counter to the formula in terms of hit potential. Both Sides Now is about the only song she has written hat has the hook and repetive melodic content. (I know many will argue) In addition to this Joni writes intelligent lyrics. Lyrics that take thought and reflection to understand. Of course a line here or there will hit home in two seconds but by and large her songs take listening beyond the mere cursory attention. Alternate meanings are revealed upon subsequent listenings as many have pointed out time and again. Popular songs or hits and super popular artists have songs loaded with powerful hooks that crawl inside your brain whether you want them to or not. Many of those lyrics which grab the attention of even the non-listener are usually banal, crude, or rude sayings or sound bites which no intelligent person could like. A hit forces you to pay attention even in busy traffic in your car. It appeals to the loins more than the brain. It appeals to the pure emotional response mechanisms of the lower brain as opposed to the frontal lobes. The reason the music companies have never jumped on Jonis product and promoted the crap out of it is because they know that a smallish intelligent core of fans of her art will get into it but that no matter how much more they were to promote the product it wouldnt generate that much more sales. Joni could probably compromise the crap out of her art and write hits BUT she would hate herself for doing so. This is the curse of the artist. The Dichotomy in the life of the artist is that the more you go for money (survival) the farther away you have to go from what is really your expression of your best pure art. I think of Jonis song For The Roses in which shes trashing the music industry, its superficiality, its slavery relationship between the srtict and the company, but then states that she has her "teeth sunk deep into the hand that gives me things I cant give up just yet". I love this song. It is filled with so many poignant things to say and understand But there isnt a hook in sight. She rambles on spouting one great line after another but the general public wont find one melodic note sequence or simple line of words to carry with them after one listen. That is what a hit for all its lousy ART does. Thats the difference. Actually Im glad Joni never has compromised. Leave the Pap Ooh Mau Mau's for the bozos. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:31:20 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Add Me To The List!!! > BSN will definitely win at least one Grammy! > E.T. It will not be eligible until next year. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:31:06 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: A Strange boy. Or at least a rare bird. Lots of good points, Richard. Richard Rice wrote: > Admit it Bob, you are a rare bird for a straight male. I don't think she > was attacking her straight male fans, just commenting on her own > perception of the demographics of her fan base. I am one of those straight males, and when I think about it, I don't think I've ever met another SM who is a Joni fan. This after 30 solid years of fandom. Plenty of Allman Bros or G Dead fans, etc. > > I too get tired of Joni's railing against the Music Scene. True, her > work is of such a high quality that it deserves air play and plenty of > it. When she says, as in the Billboard article, that she has been excommunicated from the music biz, and her works have been relegated to obscurity, I have to think that obscurity is a relative term. Yes, Ricky Martin and Britney Spears are selling 15 million copies, while TTT barely scratched the Billboard charts, if it made it at all. On the other hand, millions of people know her work, she lives in a mansion, and has the freedom to do whatever she wants, and has for 3 decades. There are plenty of musicians toiling in real obscurity, who, while they may not be of her caliber, certainly have more to say than the Martins and Spears of the music world. And when it comes to painters, there are lots of them that are truly gifted and pretty much unknown outside of their own circle of friends (I know a few). While the guy that did the Wheaties box sells 50 million copies a year. Van Gogh never sold a painting in his lifetime, and DaVinci painted people's living rooms for pocket money. Obscurity? Almost every songwriter, virtually all the female ones would cite Joni as an influence and pay homage to her genius. The music biz, to paraphase Fred Allen's comments about television, could fit all their integrity in a flea's navel and have room left over for the hearts of 20 agents. If they could sell 50 millions units of a fart through a wah-wah pedal, they would, and praise it as an important cutting edge work. No, it ain't fair, but if you choose to follow your muse rather than commercial considerations, and you are still making a comfortable living, you are way ahead of the game. It would be nice if you got the recognition you deserved, too, but that's the way it is. Who knows, maybe all the extra fame would screw with her head too much anyway. > well. And we all know how well she does with rules, so her 'realist' > work, Bob, will always have that quirky, not just right feel to it, that > you are sensitive to. At the same time, the pieces can still have a > great deal of visual life and charm. It's just that doing realism requires gobs of technique to pull off well. I think her style on Mingus works more to her advantage. I like some of her paintings. The guy with the lightbulb, the "Idyll/Idle" one. But the cats were atrotious. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:31:46 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: C-S-N-Y (NJC) Thanks for the great review. I passed on their SF appearance, the tickets were quite high, and I'm not fond of arena concerts. I probably made the wrong decision. Kakki wrote: > Partial Setlist, partially out of order Someday Soon You mean the Judy Collins song? Penned by Ian Tyson, I think, and Stills played on JC's version. Who sang it? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:34:21 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Catching up with Joni and Stuff In a message dated 2/12/2000 8:54:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << I hear the criticism of her art and really do understand where much of it comes from, but I never hear what it is that people think is specifically flawed or missing from it, or what their opinions of what it would take to be considered "great" other than that it generally fails because it is not sufficiently avant garde or does not break new ground like her music does. >> I have always piped in re: her art mainly as a reaction to what others have written about it, rather than blatantly saying her art work is weak. Debra is wise in saying she'll refrain from further opinions until she sees the pieces in person, and I had agreed with that too, in earlier discussions. But I'd like to respond to some of the things you brought up so eloquently in your post, Kakki. I do think that "great" art work does break new ground. but it's more than that. There's plenty of crappy art that is new to the eye or that appears avant-garde. I'm not sure who wrote, saying that great art had to be avant-garde, but I surely don't believe that. The debate on what is good art has been going on for centuries and lord knows, I am no expert. I'm just opinionated on the subject. But let me share an example of someone whose art I find great. No one on this list has ever seen his paintings- he's never been successful in either NYC or LA. But he's an icon here in Detroit. His work is classical in that he has studied realism-still lives and portraits for most of his 40 plus years as a painter. What is absolutely fascinating to me is how he uses every day objects, sets them up in a fairly ordinary way, but yet utilizes color, composition and perspective in such a way that supersedes what the actual objects are. They become only vehicles for what he wants to express as a painter. IOW, his painting transcends beyond what is actually presented on the canvas. You have to THINK, you have to be engaged, you have to WONDER. You have to put in your time to navigate his moves, much like a good chess game, to understand what he does that is so different from the many still lives that came before his. He forces the viewer's eyes to dance around the canvas and squeal with delight- even though the most ordinary of objects- drums, vases, flowers- are depicted. The man's name is Robert Wilbert and he was one of my painting instructors while in college many years ago. One of the most meaningful art classes I ever took was on composition, which he taught. That class alone, helped me to see, period. Not just paintings and other art. But just to see. Though I am generally more moved by more abstract works, this man's paintings, as plain as they seem at first, speak volumes. When I see the heart on the sleeve on Joni's piece in BSN, I really do cringe. Worse, there is a close up of it on the CD itself, and I cringe even more. I am not even going to get into the why of it, because I"m not wanting to start an argument. If Joni's motive in painting is decorative- something that matches her furniture- then she surely has been successful. But was that statement said tongue in cheek? Does anyone know? However- And that really is what it all boils down to. It's the posts depicting her as the greatest artist of our time, that gets me going. Now be nice. I'm as sensitive as Joni when it comes to criticisms. Oh gawd, I hope she doesn't read this post. Terry, who oddly enough, loves Milton Avery too ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:34:49 EST From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: Re: Catching up with Joni and Stuff In a message dated 02/12/2000 2:13:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, KakkiB@worldnet.att.net writes: << Guess I'm the one (no doubt along with Eric ;-) in the tiny lifeboat of those who think she is an exceptinal painter. >> I'll gladly row the lifeboat Kakki--I think that Joni is an extraordinary painter and I, for one, would love to see more of her paintings. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:13:18 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: (now fortified with NJC) Of course we all know that the only difference between a str8 man and a gay man is about 4 pints. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:23:55 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Why Joni has no hits. > Both Sides Now is about the > only song she has written hat has the hook and repetive melodic content. (I > know many will argue) Am not disagreeing but wondered if The Circle Game falls into this category. i don't even need to hear it to be able to sing it. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:26:16 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: A Strange boy. Or at least a rare bird. the majority of 'chart' music is there because young children buy the records-like pre pubescent girls. i can't imagine them going ga ga over TTT or TI! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:03:46 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Straight to the Heart In a message dated 2/13/00 2:11:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << Anne quoted: "the smallest group was white straight males!" I guess us brown straight males are practically tokens. Paz >> The key word there, Michael, is "group." ;>) Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:12:08 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Why Joni has no hits. In a message dated 2/13/00 4:34:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << Actually Im glad Joni never has compromised. Leave the Pap Ooh Mau Mau's for the bozos. >> The Beatles didn't compromise, either, but they were able to have hits too numerous to mention, compose intelligent lyrics AND sing "yeah, yeah, yeah." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:31:58 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's complete lack of grace. The kid gloves are off! In a message dated 2/13/00 12:30:23 PM US Central Standard Time, markschw@attcanada.net writes: << *Bob's right too! I'm not rushing out to buy BSN! >> Firstly Mark, I thought your post was overly vicious and full of things I don't agree with, but you certainly have a right to say them. I've loved Joni's growth, matter of fact just spent the afternoon listening to TI and NRH and they are AMAZINGLY fine records. Two Grey Rooms may be the prettiest song she's *ever* written. When I think back to what I was listening to 25 years ago, almost without exception those artists aren't active any longer, or are staging comebacks, like Santana & Steely Dan. Joni, however, has remained vital to me and has continued to crank out thought-provoking, challenging music. I would never agree that her best work is behind her as she's certainly proven to be always full of surprises! And as a fan I encourage everyone to pick up BSN, maybe you want to wait for the March release with a secured disc, but it's a welcome addition to my collection. Now, if you want a "JoniMitchell" record, that is, thought-provoking and challenging music, pick up Ani DiFranco's "To The Teeth" now, and then get your Joni in a couple weeks! ;~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:48:39 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: A Strange boy. Or at least a rare bird. John said that Joni said: << With great interest I watch for your reaction as she whispers in your ear, "So, Bob. May I call you Bob? What do YOU think of my paintings?........ Hummmmmmmm?">> Well, if she had that death grip on my hand like she did in Atlanta, I probably would tell her a really nice lie!... "Oh, Joni...may I call you Joni? Your masterful brushwork is only surpassed by your skills as a composer and transformer of the American musical form..." << Admit it Bob, you are a rare bird for a straight male. I don't think she was attacking her straight male fans, just commenting on her own perception of the demographics of her fan base. >> I admit I'm a pretty rare bird (a Dodo most of the time), but I still think she mocks herself with that kind of statement. Somebody who sang about "you snipe so steady you snub so snide, so ripe and ready to diminish and deride", and here she goes and creates her own borderline. By the same token, picking up on what Randy said, just in the last two weeks I've had conversations with 3 straight guys at work about Joni. They were all fans, albeit not as nutty as me, but then again there aren't many of *us* out there! :~) One of the guys even had a copy of C&S in his pocket! Bob PS: I'm excited about those of you who continue to contact me about my "Covers" project...keep those cards & letters coming! PPS: Phil Fallo, I lost your e-mail addy in a crash. Would like to get in touch with you... ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #90 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?