From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V2000 #72 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, February 4 2000 Volume 2000 : Number 072 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- A BSN Review from Amazon [zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny)] RE: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) [LL ] re: "Political correctness," etc. [LL ] BSN being shipped NOW!!! [CaTGirl627@aol.com] RE: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: Hejira vs DJRD [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: be bop deluxe / now NZ Music njc [john low ] I really shouldn't start this but... (NJC) [john low ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:31:22 -0800 (PST) From: zapuppy2@webtv.net (Penny) Subject: A BSN Review from Amazon Joni Mitchell has long dabbled in the jazz world, forging alliances with the likes of Charles Mingus, Jaco Pastorius, and Wayne Shorter while incorporating elements of fusion into her more intrepid recordings. Both Sides Now, however, comes at jazz from a different angle than the experimental likes of Mingus and The Hissing of Summer Lawns. Here is Joni the chanteuse, tackling smoky standards such as "At Last," "Sometimes I'm Happy," and "Stormy Weather" in the embrace of lush pop arrangements that owe a debt to Nelson Riddle and Gordon Jenkins, though some stray over the line from stately into staid. The focus here is on Mitchell the vocalist, and she displays a real commitment to the music. She has the chops and the smarts to tackle these staples, but at times she seems intimidated by their illustrious pedigrees. Two of Mitchell's own songs are revived here--"A Case of You" and the title track. The results are mixed: the former takes on a new weight while the latter seems adolescent in such mature company. Ultimately, Both Sides Now is more a valentine to classic pop by a woman who can--and should--be off making more touchstones of her own. This numbered, limited-edition version of the album comes in a Mitchell-designed box that contains three of her lithographs. --Steven Stolder (He must have been working off old info with the three litho statement) Penny :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Grace dies when it becomes us verses them......Philip Yancey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:33:14 -0500 From: LL Subject: RE: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) At 08:50 PM 2/3/00 -0500, patrick leader wrote: >i prefer to aim for some sort of politically correct speech because i know >personally how words can hurt, and i prefer to avoid hurting people. i'm >proud of that; i think it's a fine motivation. Absolutely. Why does it have to be politically correct, though, I wonder. Why not "ethically correct?" Why not "correct?" "Political" carries with it the assumption that one's politics are more correct than anothers. That breaks us into "sides." When we concentrate on division, we lose sight of the goal, which should be a better life for everyone...one with dignity. LL lyric@usadatanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:38:35 -0500 From: LL Subject: re: "Political correctness," etc. > >At 02:03 PM 2/3/00 -0600, Pitassi, Mary wrote: >>I wrote, and LL responded: >> >>That, too! But you were speaking about language, and so it was that >>particular motivation of mine that I emphasized in my reply. It is a very >>strong one. > >8<-------------------------------------------------------------->8 > >>Well, the possibilities I suggested were written to be taken *somewhat* >>tongue-in-cheek: maybe I didn't make that quite clear enough. And far be >>it from me to suggest that *this* group is comprised of a bunch of lemmings! > > >ACK!! I *never* said that!! I don't even slyly imply it with a wink and >a nudge! > > >>;-) But I do think that the view that something called "PC" exists and is >>out to destroy language and clear thought (if not the decency of Western >>civilization) is one that's been replicated in quite a few magazines and >>newspapers, whichever ones you may happen to read. And yes, I think people >>tend to respond to views with which they are familiar. > > >Hmm. Pardon my saying so, but "destroy" is such a strong word and seems a >bit extreme. > > >My objection is the manipulation of language (by anyone, regardless of >their politics) in labelling that to *me* signifies a dismissal of some >true issues in favor of "cleaning up" people's consciences. >While my friend will say I am quite right about PC not making the problem >go away, yet it >does ensure that the problem is constrained within the bounds of civil >society while it is being addressed, that is, under the assumption that >all human beings are civil. It's been my observation that bigots are not >reasonable people and I have found, personally, that it is futile to >reason with the unreasonable. The attitude is one of self-entitlement, and >by using popular terms, i.e. "Newspeak," (read 1984 by George Orwell?) we >are really only kidding ourselves that we are taking real social action. >These words are not actions. They can pacify those of us who wish it, but >they do not change people's hearts. > >My friend tells me that she agrees PC can be a real pain when you're >trying to express yourself and among friends it probably isn't necessary - >but for a society to be, and remain, civil, there must be some means of >controlling behavior. We aren't controlling anyone's behavior and there >is no real way to do that. We think we are pricking the consciences of >unethical people with words and changing their attitudes? > > >Specific examples of cultural and societal abuses can be found in >classical literature...someone here mentioned _To Kill A Mockingbird_, add >_Tarzan_ and _Huckelberry Finn_ . Specifically, HF has been targeted here >in the United States for removal from some schools. We really don't want to >go back to the days when the white/male culture had complete domination >and everything else was dismissed quite openly as inferior, no, but the >truth is that white male domination is still the order of the day for the >most part. A shameful case is the one of indigenous people. "Native >Americans" say that no one here cares at all about them and they are >quite right. Our society ignores them and hope they and their land claims >will go away. > >But we *are* among friends here ... right? Has civility been mentioned as >a JMDL criteria? Still, there's nothing wrong with "live and let live" as >a general guide for living...all have that right. I simply don't agree >that PC language is effecting the kind of social change that is needed. >And no, I am not a Republican. > > >L lyric@usadatanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 21:41:11 EST From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: BSN being shipped NOW!!! Hey Gang, It is being shipped NOW!!! ******************************************** We want you to know that we have shipped the following titles. Bill To: Debra Worthington Ship To: Debra Worthington aka Catgirl ;o) QTY PRICE TITLE --- ------- ------- 1 $39.99 Both Sides Now ------- $39.99 Net Product $0.00 GiftWrap $0.00 Tax $2.95 Shipping ------- $42.94 Total Shipment $32.94 CreditCard $10.00 Dollar Off Coupon CATTNET ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:45:00 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: RE: "Political correctness," etc. (NJC) Harper Lou wrote: > There is such a thing as a "black" singing voice. And I don't think it's > racist to label it as such. For example, to me Barry White has that > definitive "black baritone" sound. > > One of my friends, Robin Work, is a phenomenal jazz vocalist. And everyone > who hears her CD swears she must be black. She's not, she just has a > certain quality in her voice, reminiscent of some of the great female R&B > vocalists. Yes, but you said, "there is such a thing as *a* 'black' singing voice," and then described at least two different black singing voices. Unless you meant your friend sounds like those great female R&B Barry White-style baritones. > People who insist on being politically correct are covering up their own > tendency toward prejudice, and they're just making guidelines so they > don't risk exposing their own prejudice to others. Well, that's a nice unanswerable smear tactic -- kind of like saying, if you don't buy Freud's Oedipal complex theory, it proves you have a fixation with your own mother that you're afraid to face. The more I argue for "political correctness," the more racist you can claim I am. But since we're on the subject (of prejudice, not the Oedipal complex): yes, Harper Lou, part of "political correctness" to me means uncovering and examining and confronting my own internalized racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. And part of that includes trying to speak out on and question prejudice as I see it around me -- not in the spirit of censoring others or taking the condescending moral high ground, but of...well, of *love*. Of course I do this imperfectly; it's a thin line. I'm not claiming to be particularly virtuous here. It's a constant process and a constant struggle. I'm not "covering up my tendency toward prejudice"; I'm trying to smoke it into the open so I can see it for what it is and keep it from coloring my thinking and my actions. And we *all* have a "tendency toward prejudice" -- it is internalized and reinforced in subtle ways, our good intentions notwithstanding. It's pervasive in our history and in our society, including our language. We are not to blame for having internalized prejudices; we *are* to blame if we don't try to do anything about them. And what are you saying anyway, Harper Lou -- that it's much better to proudly flaunt one's tendency towards prejudice than to try to "cover it up"? > Not all people are equal or the same Are you using "equal" and "same" as synonyms? To me, they aren't. People are not all the same, but that doesn't mean they aren't all equal (in the sight of God, etc.). > Obviously, since some black people call themselves "niggah" or gays use the > word "faggot" freely, the prejudice is certainly not in the word itself. [....] > Throughout history, the word woman has represented dignity, strength, > ability, compassion, beauty, etc. Why change it? Wait....if prejudice is in the usage and not the word itself -- i.e., meaning is contextual rather than absolute -- then how did "woman," but not "womyn," come to have all these monolithic meanings throughout history? And if "celebrating difference" is such a great thing, why can't we have "womyn" and "herstory" in addition to (not instead of, I repeat again) "women" and "history"? > The world does not need more spoonfed political correctness. It needs more > people brave enough to think for themselves and caring enough to respect > their fellow humans on their own. I agree with the latter sentence! But somehow I don't think that smearing people who call out and confront racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise bigoted statements as they see them with the nebulous "politically correct" label will lead to that braver and more respectful world. - --David P.S. I think we should maybe look again at Rev. Vince's post on Henley's comment (in digest #63) which started this thread. It was phrased as a sincere question, not as a rush to judgment of any kind. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:04:20 EST From: Relayer211@aol.com Subject: Neil Diamond I am big Neil Diamond fan.Does anyone know what Joni thinks about Neils's versions of "Both sides now","chelsea morning" and "Free man in Paris"? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:13:16 -0500 From: Walter R Rodgers III Subject: HOSL Catgirl; The line from Sweetbird that nether one of us quoted is one of my favorite lines of the album... "Sweet bird you are, briefer that a falling star..." I'm assuming she's talking about the sweetbird of youth. Normally, exaggeration turns me off to an author... makes them seem kind of hysterical and lacking a strong point to make, but boy does it work for me here. I mean the image of a brief flash of light against the backdrop of the infinite expanding universe really paints the picture of what youth looks like in the rearview mirror. Don't get me wrong, growing up and raising a family is wonderful, but the album really strikes a deep chord in me. Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:11:00 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira vs DJRD In a message dated 2/3/00 9:53:57 AM US Central Standard Time, cateri@hotmail.com writes: << For some reason, I never got DJRD when it came out. >> I actually heard this one BEFORE it came out...the FM rock station in Raleigh played it in it's entirety at midnight before it was in the stores. I'll never forget lying in bed with the headphones on, listening to the Overture to Cotton Ave, Jaco's bass bombs, and the whole first track...I was in awe from day one. I played that 90 minute tape over and over, eventually I did buy the album and record over my cassette. I didn't understand a damn bit of it, and 25 years later am only a smidge closer...but the sonics of this record just suck me in every time. And the louder the better, especially the sweeping majesty of Paprika Plains!!!! Catherine later says: <> Me too, I have to be breathing and on the planet earth! :~) Bob NP: Living Colour: "open letter (to a landlord)" 'Vivid' is such an awesome rock record...too bad these boys were so far ahead of their time... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:56:30 +1000 From: john low Subject: Re: be bop deluxe / now NZ Music njc Helen (who we're all glad to see back) wrote: Yes, "Sensitive To A Smile" is a wonderful song (as is the album of the same name from which it comes). I'm sorry to hear that Herbs may have called it a day, but I guess Charlie would be hard to replace. While on the topic of NZ music, I recently bought two CDs by NZ musicians which have become firm favourites of mine - "Try Whistling This" by Neil Finn (ex-Crowded House, Slit Enz") and "The Islander" by Dave Dobbyn. Both albums are full of strong and interesting songs that, lyrically and melodically, encourage repeated investigation. Dave Dobbyn, unlike Neil Finn, perhaps hasn't achieved fame outside Australasia though he IMO he deserves to. He writes great songs and is no mean hand at the guitar. Both are worth checking out! John (in Sydney) PS. Helen, you've returned just at the right time! The Aussie cricketers will be heading your way in a week or so. With the New Zealanders in a jubilant mood after trouncing the West Indies it should be a great series. __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:16:41 +1000 From: john low Subject: I really shouldn't start this but... (NJC) All you people talking about the pin-up posters you hung on your wall and what TV shows you watched when you were youngsters in the 1970s - its making me feel old again! I was at school in the early 1960s (when TV was fairly new in Australia) and, while I rode the range with the Cartrights and Rowdy Yates and rounded up outlaws with Josh Randall, the love of my life was a sexy little blond from Hawaii - one Cricket Blake, aka Connie Stevens. Anyone remember Cricket? I might add that I also had a picture on my wall of Maynard G. Krebbs (not as a sex symbol, I hasten to say) and though I eventually fell out of love with Cricket (the affair was all one sided unfortunately) some would judge that I hung on to Maynard as a role model far too long! :-) [At Christmas I was delighted to discover on a Louden Wainwright III CD I was given by my brother, a song that made reference to Maynard.] I think I better stop here. This is so remotely associated with the original topic that I'm sure most will have deleted by now. I think I've jumped the fence and headed for the hills with this thread... If you haven't already, delete quick!! Rambling old Uncle John in Sydney. __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://start.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 01:37:15 -0600 From: evian Subject: I really shouldn't start this..(njc) Harper Lou wrote: > Evian (any relation to the bottled water?) > Hehehehehe, to tell you the truth, I came up with the nickname right before I bought my computer. I was at a friend's house, and he was showing me how to use chat rooms, and he said "You gotta pick a nickname" and after freaking out because I couldn't think, I looked over at the bottle of water I was holding, and said "Evian sounds good enough to me". Then, when I got my computer, and I was trying to think of an email addy, and after I found out Hejira was already taken, and my wife rolled her eyes at the 28BarburyLane (I was reading Tales of the City at the time), I just said "the evian thing works with me" because, if y'all ever meet me, you'll soon realize that I have this water thing, and drink about 50 gallons a day, and I always have a bottle on hand -- A few weeks ago, I took a bottle with me while I was at a doctor appointment, and the doc was late as hell, and I absentmindedly sucked back a litre of water, and thought I was literally going to explode waiting in the examining room! And, to make matters even more confusing, my icq nick is JamesT (after some James Taylor joke thing I had with a friend that I don't even really remember now) and my aol IM name is JT5440, again because of the James Taylor thing, with the 5440 coming from the Canadian band 54-40, which I used to worship. And then my real name is Rob, and then my sisters still call me Robbie, and so I don't even know who the hell I am at the best of times....So... basically, you can call me whatever the hell you want, I am trained to answer by a whole shitload of names! And then my last name is Ukrainian, and pretty much unpronounceable, and then my wife has a different last name... so... it's a ball of confusion over here! Your multi-named friend, (fill in the blank) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V2000 #72 **************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? - -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?